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Guest commentary: A look at why BYU won't count in the plus one for the ACC and SEC

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  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 8, 2014 7:35 a.m.

    Right on Jay!

  • Simpe Spectator St.George, UT
    Oct. 28, 2014 12:16 p.m.

    hahaha this article is exactly why I will never be a BYU fan. And why every season at BYU will be a failure. These are such ridiculous articles. The first article this season was about how this is going to be a special season. The media (desnews) hypes byu up so much that they think that they have a chance. Add when they aren't good (year after year) there is a stupid excuse or far fetched justification for their failures.

  • UtahBruin Saratoga Springs, UT
    Oct. 6, 2014 2:30 p.m.

    @ Elmers Fudd

    "BYU hides behind the religious discrimination excuse to justify why they were never invited to join a power conference and Utah did."

    This has been said by Stanford and Cal many years ago. Documented. The PAC picked up Utah and Colorado for the same reasons. It gets them more exposure of two teams that will not be at the top of the conference as frequently as they would like. And they now have more appearence and ability to steal Utah and Colorado recruits. And with proof, more and more Utah recruits are leaving for other PAC schools other than Utah. Utah is the nerdy friend at the party that gets invited because his sister is hot.

  • UtahBruin Saratoga Springs, UT
    Oct. 6, 2014 2:26 p.m.

    @ekute

    This is where your lack of knowledge of the game and how it is to play out comes in. Your comment how they are afraid of BYU but not Notre Dame, is complete ignorance. Notre Dame plays ACC schools in Football for the basketball affiliation with the conference. No other conference plays ND year in and year out other than the PAC-10.2, prior to this year it was the Big-10 and that is now going away because of the ACC agreement. It is the same reason Utah doesn't want to play BYU year in and year out anymore. And it makes sense. Why play BYU when you can put Fresno State or Idaho State on your schedule, two guaranteed wins. I know the utes have won 4 straight but many were close and the potential of a loss is always there, it is more unlikely to lose to Fresno and if you lose to Idaho St then you should just hang up the pads on the program. You know it makes sense and so does every other Utah fan on here. This is why people don't like Utah fans, because of comments liek this.

  • wwookie Payson, UT
    May 30, 2014 11:57 p.m.

    With the same logic, these schools are petrified of Army, old dominion and NM State.

    Do you sleep with a fluffy stuffed mountain lion?

    Also, why are TCU and Utah now in power conferences? Is it because BYU doesn't like pie, but utah and TCU do?
    USC didn't have a problem serving utah a $10 million slice this past year.

  • Go Utes! Go Yale! Salt Lake City, UT
    May 29, 2014 12:51 p.m.

    @CougarSunDevil

    "November 1st, ASU's built in win. Savannah state would be a more formidable foe."

    Sounds like sour grapes to me. Savannah State being a more formidable foe? Please. That's not what you thought praying that your Devils would escape RES with a win. Bitterness and hatred for the U on full display by ignoramus level comments.

    Pray that all your Coug/Devil foes will be as "formidable" as Savannah State.

  • Manfred Man Salt Lake City, UT
    May 29, 2014 12:40 p.m.

    Man, this constant banter between U and Y fans is pretty funny. Both have some good points (and some really lame ones), but I feel I can take away two things from all of this:

    1. Utah hasn't gotten over BYU
    2. BYU hasn't gotten over Utah

    Yep, U two deserve each other! I can't wait for the Holy War to resume in 2016.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 29, 2014 12:34 p.m.

    @CougarSunDevil

    Now that is a trend. So if ASU equals Fresno, then Utah equals New Mexico State.

    ----------

    Except New Mexico State has as many BCS bowl wins as ASU.

    If winning in the MWC is padding your win total then what is getting thumped in bowl games by WAC teams do to your win total?

    Boise State L 24-56
    Hawaii L 24-41

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 29, 2014 12:25 p.m.

    @TrueBlue

    Whether U want to admit it, or not, Utah has been in a continual downward spiral since the Alabama game, and it began two seasons BEFORE Utah left the MWC.

    -------------

    Are you now going to use the same logic against TCU?

    2010 #2 13-0 (MWC)
    2011 #16 11-2 (MWC)
    2012 UR 7-6 (Big 12)
    2013 UR 4-8 (Big 12)

    Go ahead and spin it!

    FACT: Utah and TCU were the top dogs of the MWC, 8-0 vs BYU.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 29, 2014 12:15 p.m.

    @Solomon Levi

    Bronco is 9-9 versus PAC 12 teams.
    Kyle is 13-21.

    -----------

    Again, for the 1000 time... Bronco also has a better record vs Big 12 teams compared to TCU's Chris Patterson. I don't expect you to understand how tough it is to play a P5 schedule.

    @CougarSunDevil

    "November 1st, ASU's built in win. Savannah state would be a more formidable foe."

    They might if you played them in December, considering ASU is 3-7 in bowl games regardless of the level of competition.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 29, 2014 12:06 p.m.

    @Solomon Levi
    Alpine, UT

    Uteology

    "How many of Utah's bowl winning teams were good enough to be ranked in the final AP Top 25?"

    Nice dodge, but the question doesn't refer to Utah's opponent's ranking, but to Utah's ranking.

    ------------

    During the BCS era, ONE less than BYU but BYU has TWO less major bowl wins.

    BYU AP Rankings:
    2009 #12 11-2
    2008 #25 10-3
    2007 #14 11-2
    2006 #16 11-2
    2001 #25 12-2

    Utah AP Rankings:
    2009 #18 10-3
    2008 #2 13-0
    2004 #4 12-0
    2003 #21 10-2

  • truthsandwich RANDOLPH, UT
    May 29, 2014 10:01 a.m.

    "When was the last time Utah rolled up 550 rushing yards against anybody, let alone one of the college football's elite programs? (TEXAS) "

    How many players were drafted from that "elite program" ?

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 29, 2014 9:47 a.m.

    @ Solomon Levi

    Bronco lost to a 2-10 UVA team, and got blown out by 4-8 USU.

    Washington of 2010 and Oregon of 2006 are not comparable to the programs they have today.

    The year Bronco beat Washington St. 30-6, Utah also beat them by a score of 49-6.

    That's true about road wins; hopefully it changes soon.

    2012 and 2013 were different years. In that time, Utah's team improved, but the schedule also got much more difficult which is why Utah had the same record. Had Utah been fortunate enough to play the 38th ranked SOS in 2013 that Utes would have been bowling.

    Since 2008 BYU is a combined 1-9 against Utah and TCU. It's well established that BYU can't compete with these two programs. Both the Utes and Horned Frogs missed a bowl game due to increased SOS. Can you image what would happen to BYU if they ever decided to play a big-boy schedule?

  • TrueBlue Orem, UT
    May 29, 2014 8:56 a.m.

    Uteology

    As with any statistical analysis, trends and patterns are far more important than individual spikes and dips.

    As "Just the FAX" posted

    14 of the last 17 BYU-Utah games (82%) have decided by a touchdown or less. In other words, in 82% of the games played since 1997, the average score:

    BYU 20.1
    Utah 21.0

    and the average margin of victory:

    BYU +4.0
    Utah +4.6

    For any objective fan not pushing a biased agenda, that's substantial evidence that the series has been extremely close for the last 17 years.

    --------------------------

    One disturbing trend for U to consider, Utah's continual downward trend since 2008,

    2008 #2/#4 13-0
    2009 #18/#18 10-3
    2010 ur/#23 10-3
    2011 unranked 8-5 (4-5)
    2012 unranked 5-7 (3-6)
    2013 unranked 5-7 (2-7)

    Whether U want to admit it, or not, Utah has been in a continual downward spiral since the Alabama game, and it began two seasons BEFORE Utah left the MWC.

  • CougarSunDevil Phoenix, AZ
    May 29, 2014 8:47 a.m.

    "Stop worrying about Utah and try to right your own ship!"

    Says the Ute fan on a BYU article.

  • Solomon Levi Alpine, UT
    May 29, 2014 12:00 a.m.

    Uteology

    "How many of Utah's bowl winning teams were good enough to be ranked in the final AP Top 25?"

    Nice dodge, but the question doesn't refer to Utah's opponent's ranking, but to Utah's ranking.

    Only 4 of Utah's last 10 bowl winning teams, less than half, were good enough to be ranked. Most of those Utah teams wouldn't have even been invited to a in the 70's and 80's, back when just playing in a bowl was a significant achievement.

    Bronco never lost to UNLV, New Mexico, Wyoming or Colorado.
    Kyle lost to all of them.

    Bronco is 9-9 versus PAC 12 teams.
    Kyle is 13-21.

    Bronco has beaten Washington and Oregon
    Kyle is winless versus Washington and Oregon

    Bronco is 1-0 versus Washington St.
    Kyle lost to WSU less than a year ago.

    Utah hasn't won a road game against a PAC team with a winning record in almost 20 years.

    You weren't good enough to qualify for a bowl in 2012 playing the 41st SOS.

    What makes you think you would have qualified for a bowl in 2013 playing the 38th SOS?

    U can talk the talk, but U sure can't walk the walk.

  • CougarSunDevil Phoenix, AZ
    May 28, 2014 11:21 p.m.

    Uteology

    "As far as bowl games ASU = Fresno State.

    Over the last 16 years ASU is 3-7 in bowl games, Utah is 10-1 with 2 BCS bowl wins and our only loss was to a #9 Boise State team."

    With MWC teams padding those stats, good job. ASU isn't very good in the post season for some reason, so what. How has Utah's post season been the last two years? How has utah's games against ASU head to head been in the last 3 decades? I'll answer for you, not good and not one win against ASU since 1976. Ute fans like statistics, I have some for you.

    Utah's win percentage against ASU in the 80's zero
    Utahs win percentage against ASU in the 90's zero
    Utah's win percentage against ASU in the 2000's zero.
    Utahs win percentage against ASU so far in the 2010's zero.

    Now that is a trend. So if ASU equals Fresno, then Utah equals New Mexico State.

    November 1st, ASU's built in win. Savannah state would be a more formidable foe.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 28, 2014 10:48 p.m.

    @royalblue

    Of course, for a program that couldn't consistently beat teams like Wyoming, New Mexico, UNLV and Colorado State, even during their brief heyday of 2003 to 2009, consistently beating teams like Colorado and Washington State is a tall order.

    -----------------

    Utah hasn't lost to a team like UNLV since 2007, finished 45-6 (88%) in the MWC and 8-1 (89%) since then against similar teams. The SIX of 7 loses were to ranked teams, the other at AP #26 Notre Dame.

    Over that period, Utah has ZERO losses to teams like 2013 BYU, @Houston, Middle Tennessee, Idaho State, @Nevada, Boise State, and @Utah State.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 28, 2014 10:41 p.m.

    skywalker
    Palo Alto, CA

    Uteology

    "Over the last 16 years ASU is 3-7 in bowl games, Utah is 10-1..."

    How many of Utah's bowl winning teams were good enough to be ranked in the final AP Top 25?

    ------------

    Not many since we beat most of them, while BYU lost to most opponents.

    FACT: During the BCS era, 36% of Utah’s bowl opponents were ranked in the AP top 25 and 55% in the AP top 30.

    FACT: Over the same period, 27% of BYU’s bowl opponents were ranked in the AP top 25 and 36% in the AP top 30 (55% in top 35)

    The difference, Utah went 10-1 (91%) and BYU 7-6 (54%).

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 28, 2014 10:32 p.m.

    @Just the FAX
    Olympus Cove, Utah

    Uteology

    Your "averages" are skewed (I assume you understand the term) by 3 lopsided games.

    ------------

    Yes, I think I do understand the term. Let me try to use it in a sentence:

    BYU got skewed! Not once, not twice, by three times.

    You mean you want to ignore 30% of Utah's most dominate wins or 20% of the sample size to prove that Utah hasn't dominated?

  • royalblue Alpine, UT
    May 28, 2014 10:23 p.m.

    Just the FAX

    Now you're really being unfair, expecting the Utes to prove that they're more than a twin flash-in-the-pan, by winning consistently over the course of several seasons.

    Of course, for a program that couldn't consistently beat teams like Wyoming, New Mexico, UNLV and Colorado State, even during their brief heyday of 2003 to 2009, consistently beating teams like Colorado and Washington State is a tall order.

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    May 28, 2014 10:14 p.m.

    Uteology

    "Over the last 16 years ASU is 3-7 in bowl games, Utah is 10-1..."

    How many of Utah's bowl winning teams were good enough to be ranked in the final AP Top 25?

    Not counting the playoffs, 72 teams will play in bowls in 2014-15.

    More than 50 of those teams won't even be ranked.

    One mediocre team beating another mediocre team doesn't prove much, even if it is in a bowl.

  • Riddles in the Dark Olympus Cove, Utah
    May 28, 2014 10:02 p.m.

    coolhead55

    "BYU is a mid tier school, as it showed with its competitive loss to Virginia."

    It's laughable that you chose to completely ignore BYU's complete DOMINATION of Texas, one of the blue-bloods of college football, the very next week - 550 yards rushing, the most rushing yards ever given up by the Longhorns in their entire history.

    When was the last time Utah rolled up 550 rushing yards against anybody, let alone one of the college football's elite programs?

    Arizona has been earning PAC money for 35+ years, and the Wildcats are still looking for their first Rose Bowl.

    Despite the whiny spin of the naysayers, BYU will be invited to the playoffs, before Utah plays in its first Rose Bowl.

    Mark it Down!

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    May 28, 2014 9:44 p.m.

    Uteology

    Your "averages" are skewed (I assume you understand the term) by 3 lopsided games.

    In the 14 of 17 games decided by a touchdown or less, since 1997:

    Average score:
    BYU 20.1
    Utah 21.0

    Average margin of victory:
    BYU +4.0
    Utah +4.6

    ----------------

    u-pac

    Before obsessing about head-to-head, Utah should first try to become competitive with BYU on a national scale.

    When was the last time Utah had three straight AP Top 25 finishes?
    When was the last time Utah had back-to-back 11+ win seasons?
    When was the last time Utah had a national award winning player?

    Nationally relevant facts are ignored on the hill, for obvious reasons.

    BYU first cracked the AP poll in 1977, 53 seasons after BYU began playing football.

    Utah first cracked the AP poll in 1994, 100 seasons after Utah began playing football.

    By 1994, BYU had already been ranked in the AP poll ELEVEN times.

    At Utah's current rate of ONE AP Top 25 finish every 15.6 years (since 1936), it'll take the Utes 187 years just to match BYU's current SEVENTEEN AP Top 25 finishes.

    Lifetime 11+ win seasons:
    BYU 11
    Utah 2

  • Coolhead55 North Logan, UT
    May 28, 2014 8:15 p.m.

    Quality of play and quality of opponents prevent an independent BYU from being considered a peer school to the P5. Scream and howl, but BYU is a mid tier school, as it showed with its competitive loss to Virginia. With the amount of money that the P5 schools make, BYU will likely struggle to keep up with the Joneses over time. Our neighbor, lowly Colorado, made almost $20 million from the PAC 12 last year and started on a $143 million facility 2 weeks ago. They have a history of winning, shot down in the last decade by under charging walkons for meals (6 scholarships NCAA penalty) and very bad coaching. Washington State, Arizona and Oregon State also got almost $20 million. Utah, only $10 million plus for 1 more year. They all recruit where BYU recruits. The scholarship changes that will be allowed for P5 schools will cost big money, and the BYU ESPN contract isn't enough. Will a religious school take money from its ecclesiastic mission to get better recruits? As a member, I hope not. Especially with the likely NCAA violations. I smile at the cat fight type posts with Utah. But this is BYU vs the entire P5. Without a P5 affiliation???

  • poyman Lincoln City, OR
    May 28, 2014 8:02 p.m.

    This whole question has been pushed so far by the ACC and the SEC that I can't see how this whole situation doesn't eventually get sorted out in court... In fact, some would say that it already has been sorted out and that the P5's are acting illegally according to adjudicated law... Burciaga -SCOTUS Ruling (OU and UGA vs NCAA and ABC Sports)....

    BYU has been far too accommodating and has focused too much on Political Correctness...

    At some point I suspect that schools such as BYU, Boise State, Northern Illinois, UCF, Houston, Cincy will have no real choice but to test the exclusionary actions of these P5 Conferences to determine if they in fact can be exclusionary... 50% of the P5 schools will match up poorly as far as performance history on the field, and about 50% of those schools will also match up poorly when examining and comparing the individual schools investments in facilities, travel expenses, etc

    This is a financial issue when it's all said and done and the P5 folks Exclusions will not bode well when mapping it out against the Burciaga- SCOTUS Ruling...

    Just an opinion, but I believe it is on target.

  • tinplater scottsdale, AZ
    May 28, 2014 7:02 p.m.

    As a neutral observer with no skin in the game, it appears to me that Utah in the PAC 12 is doomed to be like Washington State…located in a small, provincial community with limited resources (compared to other PAC 12 schools) and horrible winters. Recruiting definitely tougher to get an athlete to SLC than say LA, Tempe, Berkely, Seattle. Main surprise to me is how well Oregon has managed recently given the problems associated with Eugene.

  • Carson Provo, UT
    May 28, 2014 6:18 p.m.

    Years ago I called BYU and their fan base the Crybabies of the Wac. Nothings changed, you still whine and cry, about almost everything. Your arrogance and baggage are a big part of what's going on with the other conferences. BYU's panic when the Utes were invited to the Pac-12 reallyput you on a bad road.Stop worrying about Utah and try to right your own ship!

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 28, 2014 6:13 p.m.

    @CougarSunDevil
    As far as the other teams in the PAC 12 are concerned, Utah = BYU. But then, at least BYU has been to consecutive bowl games.

    ---------

    As far as bowl games ASU = Fresno State.

    Over the last 16 years ASU is 3-7 in bowl games, Utah is 10-1 with 2 BCS bowl wins and our only loss was to a #9 Boise State team.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 28, 2014 5:33 p.m.

    LonestarRunner
    Salt Lake City, UT

    Spokane Ute

    14 of the last 17 BYU-Utah games have been decided by a touchdown or less in the closing minutes or in overtime.

    The fact that Utah has won a slight majority of those close games (8 of 14), hardly proves any sort of "dominance".

    -------------

    Wrong.

    During the era that just ended, the BCS era:

    * Utah is 10-6 (63%) vs BYU

    * Utah's average win margin: 13 points per game

    * BYU's average win margin: 4 points per game

    * The last time BYU beat Utah by more than a TD was 18 years ago.

    * The last time BYU actually beat Utah without Utah chocking (aka BYU miracle) was 13 years ago.

  • CougarSunDevil Phoenix, AZ
    May 28, 2014 4:24 p.m.

    Spokeane Ute

    "No one cares about BYU playing in a lowly bowl."

    Yet you care enough about BYU that you love to post on their articles in an attempt to belittle them. I would think the utes would have "bigger fish" to worry about. How about you worry about having a winning record in conference play and winning a conference road game before you worry about BYU. As far as the other teams in the PAC 12 are concerned, Utah = BYU. But then, at least BYU has been to consecutive bowl games.

  • SportsFan Orem, UT
    May 28, 2014 4:18 p.m.

    2fer

    "Look at the last four MWC seasons vs. the first few P5 seasons:"

    That's far too small a sample size to determine any sort of "trend".

    Looking at Utah's record over the last 20 years shows a brief spike in 2004 and 2008, with lots of mediocrity before, after, and in between.

    Utah has been in steady decline since 2008, BEFORE Utah joined the PAC 12.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    May 28, 2014 3:30 p.m.

    per Idaho cougar

    "BYU still matters and the UofU not so much".

    Actually the title and content of the article lead one to believe it's the other way around. Utah is set with it's PAC 12 membership; but really needs to take advantage of it. 5-7 stinks, regardless of schedule strength or conference affiliation. My initial point was that college football is dividing into the haves and have nots. The power 5 conferences and Notre Dame are seperating from the other schools. BYU and the MWWC are on the fringe, at best. Not be-littling BYU, just stating the trend in college football. BYU really needs to position it self to join the Big 12; or get left behind. (IMO) Have a good evening and feel free to comment on Utah articles any time you wish. It's an open forum and just thing how boring it would be without a differing opinion. Take Care Guy!

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 28, 2014 3:25 p.m.

    u-pac

    "Sir, maybe BYU should start to be competitive with the PAC 12 Utes in the 21st century..."

    BYU has beaten UCLA 59-0, Oregon 38-8, OSU 41-20, Washington, Washington State, Arizona and Utah during the Bronco/Kyle era (I'm pretty sure that's during the 21st century).

    Bronco has finished in the AP Top 25 FOUR times.
    Kyle has only managed the same feat TWICE.

    Bronco has had THREE 11+ win, Top 15 Finishes.
    Kyle has only had ONE.

    Who has really been competitive on a national scale, and who has only been a one-hit wonder?

  • idaho cougar fan Twin Falls, ID
    May 28, 2014 2:12 p.m.

    @Spokane Ute

    "You sure seem angy. Take a deep breath, just s civil debate; at least from my end."

    I am not angry, just amused how much Utah fans justify their acceptance in the "P5" and beat their chest on how much more superior they are to BYU. Funny that a BYU article has 150+ comments. Half of them from Utah fans (or trolls). Why are Utah fans so enamored about anything BYU? I don't even know the last time I read a Utah article let alone commented on it. All the comments made by Ute fans show that BYU still matters and the UofU not so much.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    May 28, 2014 1:31 p.m.

    Kaladin

    Nice post. Well thought out and pretty dang accurate. The fact of the matter is that neither Utah, nor BYU have impressed in football the past few years. I know 5-7 is certainly dissapointing to me.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    May 28, 2014 1:28 p.m.

    At Rockwell

    I didn't make any excuses regarding injuries; but you certainly did. Utah got outplayed and lost to the schools you menition. I never made an excuse, they beat us fair and square. How come you didn't answer my quesiont? Let's stick to the topic at hand. Who played the tougher schedule last year? Who was ranked higer per the Sagarin rankings at season's end? Who won on the field last year? You also seem to be getting very upset. Relax, just stating my opinion.

    While we are on the one game doesn't make a seaon topic; who was better BYU or Texas? Do tell....and take a deep breath!

  • idaho cougar fan Twin Falls, ID
    May 28, 2014 1:27 p.m.

    It would be interesting who the odds makers would give the edge to between BYU and Utah in reaching the playoffs first. Each team has long odds, but does Utah really have that much better odds. First win the South, once at best every 8 years. Then win the championship game, at best every other time they make it (every 16 years.) Then hope that 2 SEC teams don't get in if you happen to have a 10-3 year. Chances are slim that Utah goes 11-2 or 12-1 with their schedules. Again, Arizona has been in the Pac 10.2 for 30-40 years and has never made it to the Rose Bowl. So that is being optimistic. BYU, string 3 or 4 one loss to undefeated seasons together with our easier schedules and have a chance. Future schedules will have 3 good teams, 3 average teams and 6 winnable games so it is possible.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    May 28, 2014 1:22 p.m.

    idaho Cougar

    I don't recall making any excuses so please refrain from putting words in my mouth. All of the schools you mention have the potential to go to bowls that BYU will never, ever have the oppotunity to play in. I'm sorry that Utah's membership gives them far more advanteges and opportunities then BYU get's by being independent; but it's the truth. Actually I stand corrected, I'm not sorry at all; just stating the truth. The PAC 12 let Utah and Colorado in for a number of reasons. BYU was left out, and always will be, because no major conference is going to let a new comer tell them what days they will, and will not play on: among other reasons. You sure seem angy. Take a deep breath, just s civil debate; at least from my end.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    May 28, 2014 12:19 p.m.

    Uteanymous,

    "pillow fight in the rockies", and byu isn't good enough to be considered even for that.

    Enjoy loosing your biggest game of the year, once again, at home to an instate opponent. lol.

  • idaho cougar fan Twin Falls, ID
    May 28, 2014 12:16 p.m.

    @ekute

    Good luck with that.

  • Kaladin Greeley, CO
    May 28, 2014 12:16 p.m.

    Thank you all for the comedy routine. I especially enjoy U fans touting dominance in basketball based on one win. Whoa Nellie - The U has had the Y's number in football recently, but not basketball.
    As a BYU alum and lifelong fan, am I concerned about the current state of affairs? Yes. Do I think the end is near? No, but BYU really does need to get into a conference. I thought independence would work, but the scenery has changed. Is college football done changing? No. Does BYU still have an opportunity? Yes. The most important thing BYU has to do is win. Would I rather have BYU be in the U's position? For the most part, yes. I would love to be in one of the "P5" conferences. Maybe I'll end up wrong and independence will eventually work, but I'd rather be in the Big 12. Do what ever it takes (sans Sunday play) to get into the Big 12 BYU

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 28, 2014 11:41 a.m.

    u-pac

    "I know you feel grateful that Dr. Hill showed mercy to BYU by not scheduling the Y for this season and next."

    The only program Hill was showing mercy to was his own, which he knew wasn't good enough to handle playing Michigan and BYU in the same season (his own words, look it up).

    Unfortunately for U, the Utes won't even have their September bowl to look forward to the next two seasons.

    Enjoy the pillow fight in the rockies - it's the only thing you've got to look forward to at the end of the season after going 4-5, 3-6, 2-7...

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 28, 2014 11:38 a.m.

    @ LonestarRunner

    2013 Utah and 2012 Utah are not the same team. Utah was a better team than it was in 2012, but the level of competition also rose, which is why Utah finished 5-7 again. Likewise, Utah is a FAR better team than it was back in he MWC/WAC days. The reason for Utah's struggles is 100% due to the strength of teams the Utes are playing week in and week out. Just like TCU (who also ate BYU's lunch) the Utes are trying to build the depth and find the speed it takes to compete in a P5 conference.

    Look at the last four MWC seasons vs. the first few P5 seasons:

    Utah: (MWC 2007-2010) 9-4, 13-0, 10-3, 10-3 / (PAC-12) 8-5, 5-7, 5-7
    TCU: (MWC 2008-2011) 11-2, 12-1, 13-0, 11-2, / (Big 12) 7-6. 4-8.

    Answer honestly, why do you think the number of wins decreased after the transition to P5 conferences?

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    May 28, 2014 11:34 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    Injuries happen.

    BYU lost their two projected starting corners less than a week into fall camp, plus BYU's starting QB was just returning from season-ending knee surgery after only starting 3 games his Freshman season. BYU also sustained numerous injuries to other key players throughout the season, yet BYU still qualified for a bowl playing the 38th ranked schedule.

    So stop using injuries as an excuse.

    The simple truth is, nobody cares how good you might have been IF Wilson hadn't been injured.

    The only thing that matters is you weren't good enough to beat Washington St when Utah's bowl hopes were on the line.

    Bottom line:

    Despite the loss to Utah, BYU was still good enough to qualify for a bowl playing a tougher schedule than any schedule Utah had played in their entire history, prior to 2013.

    Despite the win over BYU in 2012, Utah still wasn't good enough to qualify for a bowl playing the 41st ranked SOS.

    If U can't handle the heat, maybe U should get out of the kitchen. U obviously aren't good enough to compete in a big boy conference.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    May 28, 2014 11:33 a.m.

    idaho cougar fan,
    6 wins for Utah puts them in a better bowl than an 11 win byu. So, who's the afterthought?

  • idaho cougar fan Twin Falls, ID
    May 28, 2014 11:03 a.m.

    @Spokane Ute

    "No one cares about BYU playing in a lowly bowl. BYU is becoming an after thought in college football."

    And so is Utah. Don't give me that excuse that "at least we are in a power conference." So are Indiana, Northwestern, Duke, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, Iowa St., WSU, Utah, Colorado and Arizona's of the world. Tell me the last time these guys mattered on a long term bases? Tell me which one of these teams has had long term success in their conferences? In fact even visit some of the bigger schools. In the Pac 10.2 when is the last time a team other than Oregon, Stanford or USC has won the Pac 10.2? Utah lives by the "We are in the conference of champions" chant, yet they are doormats in the conference. Utah is now more an after thought then BYU is. Why do you think the Pac 10 let them in? Now the Pac 10 is sure Utah won't take a piece of the pie like they did twice in the last decade.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    May 28, 2014 10:39 a.m.

    At Phoenix

    No one cares about BYU playing in a lowly bowl. BYU is becoming an after thought in college football. Simply ask the ACC or SEC. The dividing line between the have and have nots is becoming very clear. Not Utah's fault; that's just the way it is. I would rather play a difficult schedule and have the sky as the limit for post season; as opposed to play a weak schedule and know that whether you win 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 or 11 games, the destination is the same.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    May 28, 2014 10:31 a.m.

    @ Lonestar runner

    Congrats on your close loses. You must be so proud. Also, nice job of driving your time machine to fit your agends. Well done!

    @ Rockwell

    Utah was better when they played, Stanford had a better season. Who was better on any other point of the season is merely conjecture. Why are you bringing Stanford into the conversation? Conversely, who was better when Utah and BYU played. Overall who was better?

  • idaho cougar fan Twin Falls, ID
    May 28, 2014 10:19 a.m.

    @WACPaddingOurSchedule

    "BYU is so desperate about qualifying for a bowl, they sign up for one years in advance. But first they need to beat the
    "band of buddies" to get there. Attempting to beat ranked teams is not enough. You can hardly schedule any in one season."

    I thought someone from Idaho would have a little more sense. The schedule is getting much better after this year, but lets not even go to years in advance stuff. Yes BYU has to watch after themselves, but at least we are confident we will be in a bowl. Can't say the same for the Utes.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    May 28, 2014 9:23 a.m.

    Snack PAC
    Olympus Cove, Utah
    ESPN's Way-too-early bowl projections:

    BYU vs Cincinnati or Tulane in the Miami Beach Bowl
    USU vs Arizona in the Las Vegas Bowl or Rice in the Hawaii Bowl
    Utah vs chip dip in the couch potato chip bowl

    ____________

    Every sportswriter's projection, not too early-not to late.

    BYU will still be on the outside looking in.
    BYU vs whatever teams will take them.
    BYU considered lesser program by power conferences
    BYU does not even qualify to join the Big Sky Conference. How dare they! What a bunch of elitists.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    May 28, 2014 9:16 a.m.

    AFCoug


    Because ther are no such qualifications and Utah did not meet any such imaginary qualification. They simply got invited. Just like TCU, and Louisville before them. What qualifies an Iowa St, Washington St, Colorado, Mississippi St, Ole Miss, Kansas, Maryland, Virginia, etc.
    What makes them more special than a Boise St or BYU? Show me the qualifications on paper. They do not exist. It is a bunch of elitists that want to keep others out so they can hoard money. Nothing more.

    _____________

    What qualifies those schools to be "elitist?" They must be honored to be called that. Those schools were already in power conferences before BYU went on it's four decade dominance of WAC legacy. TCU is on it's second go around.
    If it was indeed elitist, the schools mentioned would not be there, don't you think? So there must be other reasons why. It's more than sports.

    Using your example above - BYU is elitist and hoarding it's TV contract money. Won't give it up or share to join a conference. Nothing more.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    May 28, 2014 8:54 a.m.

    phoenix
    Gilbert, AZ
    xam

    Once again the Utes will spend bowl week on the couch polishing their SOS trophy, while watching BYU play in their 10th straight bowl.

    Frankly, nobody outside of the Wasatch Front cares about your recent instate, close wins by the skin of your teeth "supremacy", when you're not even good enough to qualify for a bowl.

    __________

    BYU is so desperate about qualifying for a bowl, they sign up for one years in advance. But first they need to beat the
    "band of buddies" to get there. Attempting to beat ranked teams is not enough. You can hardly schedule any in one season.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    May 28, 2014 8:40 a.m.

    Rockwell,
    Beating up on a bunch of patsies and losing to mediocre and struggling P5 schools makes a season for byu.

    That's "why BYU won't count in the plus one for the ACC and SEC’".

  • Rockwell Baltimore, MD
    May 28, 2014 8:10 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    Overall, which team was better in 2013, Utah or Stanford?

    Answer the question honestly, and you'll see why one game does not a season make.

  • LonestarRunner Salt Lake City, UT
    May 28, 2014 8:00 a.m.

    Spokane Ute

    14 of the last 17 BYU-Utah games have been decided by a touchdown or less in the closing minutes or in overtime.

    The fact that Utah has won a slight majority of those close games (8 of 14), hardly proves any sort of "dominance".

    To see what "dominance" really looks like, see 1972 to 1991, when BYU won 18 of 20 and was destroying Utah by scores of 56-6 and 27-0, but was also dominating the conference, and perennially finishing in the Top 20.

  • LonestarRunner Salt Lake City, UT
    May 28, 2014 7:52 a.m.

    2fer

    "Logic tells me that the Utes would be able to scrape together at least one more win with the 38th ranked schedule."

    Actually, logic says just the opposite. Utah finished 5-7 in 2012 with the 41st ranked schedule, so logic says that Utah would have finished 5-7 or worse in 2013 with the 38th ranked schedule.

    It's funny how Utah fans like to point to 2004 and 2008 as the "true" state of Utah football, while completely ignoring the fact that Utah has historically been a mediocre to bad football program - only 6 WAC/MWC/PAC championships in the last 52 years, and only 5 AP Top 25 finishes and only 2 11+ win seasons in your entire history is proof of that.

    Stop blaming SOS for your mediocrity. You weren't any good even when you were playing WAC/MWC schedules.

  • TroyTown Anaheim, CA
    May 28, 2014 7:40 a.m.

    xam

    With TWICE as many AP Top 25 finishes and THREE times as many 11+ win seasons, it's obvious which Utah team has dominated on a national scale and overall during the Bronco/Kyle era... it's not even close.

    btw, the 8-4 Big Least Pittsburgh team that Utah beat in the Fiesta Bowl was only slightly better (if that) than the 8-5 Oklahoma and Texas teams BYU beat in 2009 and 2013.

    You could easily make the argument that both Oklahoma 2009 and Texas 2013 were BETTER than Pittsburgh 2004, the ONLY decent team Utah beat in 2004.

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    May 28, 2014 7:24 a.m.

    xam

    Once again the Utes will spend bowl week on the couch polishing their SOS trophy, while watching BYU play in their 10th straight bowl.

    Frankly, nobody outside of the Wasatch Front cares about your recent instate, close wins by the skin of your teeth "supremacy", when you're not even good enough to qualify for a bowl.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    May 28, 2014 7:22 a.m.

    @ xam

    You are spot on. BYU fans constantly refer to the USC's, Oregeon's and Washington's of the world to do what they can't; beat Utah. They never, ever mention their head to head games vs. Utah. It must be sad being on the outside looking in; which is exactly what BYU is. I also love of certain fans act like Utah sold out for the money. Please! BYU would have jumped at the opportunity to play in the PAC 12, but they didn't get the invite. No power conference is going to take a team that dictates what days they will and will not play on. That's the cold hard facts! The seperation between the have and have nots in college football is growing and it's apparent which side BYU is on; the little kids table.

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    May 28, 2014 7:17 a.m.

    xam

    Remind us the last time Utah won a road game against a PAC 12 team with a winning record.

    It doesn't really mean much when you pull off an upset win at home versus Stanford, when you're not even good enough to beat Washington St on the road to keep your slim bowl hopes alive.

  • FACTchequer Salt Lake City, UT
    May 28, 2014 7:08 a.m.

    Despite all of the cherry picking spin from the hill about how "great" the Utes have been against top competition, lifetime achievement shows just how mediocre the Utes have really been:

    AP Top 25
    BYU 17, Bronco 4
    Utah 5, Kyle 2

    11+ Win Seasons
    BYU 11, Bronco 3
    Utah 2, Kyle 1

    If U were really anywhere close to as good as U pretend to be, the Utes would have had far more than TWO 11+ win seasons and FIVE AP Top 25 finishes in 120 seasons of football (since 1894).

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 28, 2014 2:13 a.m.

    @ SportsFan

    Playing a whole season against a "big boy" schedule has definitely taken its toll on Utah. That is especially true for 2011. UNLV was a bad loss, but it happened in 2007. That's seven years ago. Utah is a completely different program than it was seven years ago, which makes that point null and void.

    I won't argue that QB's were mishandled by the Utah coaching staff. However, I do think people are making it worse than it is. Utah had a back up in Corbin Louks, but he transferred to UNR in 2009. Utah lost a few QB's in recruiting battles, and had some really bad luck with Jordan Wynn, who looked really promising after his Freshman season.

    Utah hasn't even played Houston since 1978, so I don't see why that means Utah wouldn't be able to beat them today. Also, Utah has beaten an FCS Boise team in 1985 and 1987. Utah hasn't beaten an FBS Boise team though.

    Utah won 5 games with the third ranked SOS. Logic tells me that the Utes would be able to scrape together at least one more win with the 38th ranked schedule.

  • xam Provo, UT
    May 27, 2014 11:55 p.m.

    Snack,

    The way too early SOS projections for 2014:
    #1 Utah
    #80 USU
    #81 BYU

    Congrats BYU will be going to a bowl game again in '14 on the backs of Savannah State, UNLV, Middle Tennessee, UConn, Nevada, Cal and Virginia. If Utah had these 7 cupcakes on the schedule we all know they would be a lock to go bowling too.

    Utah's performance vs. in-state opponents over past dozen years
    9-3 vs BYU
    11-1 vs Utah State
    20-4 Overall

    With two BCS bowl appearances in the past 10 years, we all know which program dominates the state of Utah in football... it's not even close

  • Snack PAC Olympus Cove, Utah
    May 27, 2014 10:42 p.m.

    twofer

    Utah had three full months of practices and four full games to break in a backup QB after Wilson was injured, yet couldn't beat Washington State - a team that lost to Colorado St - to finish 6-6, BARELY eligible for a bowl, although there was little chance any bowl would have been interested in the Utes.

  • Snack PAC Olympus Cove, Utah
    May 27, 2014 10:31 p.m.

    ESPN's Way-too-early bowl projections:

    BYU vs Cincinnati or Tulane in the Miami Beach Bowl
    USU vs Arizona in the Las Vegas Bowl or Rice in the Hawaii Bowl
    Utah vs chip dip in the couch potato chip bowl

  • SportsFan Orem, UT
    May 27, 2014 10:25 p.m.

    twofer

    As Utah's loss AT HOME to lowly 107th ranked Colorado in 2011 and Utah's shut out loss at the hands of 120th-ranked UNLV proves, the Utes are capable of losing to ANYBODY, home or away.

    The fact that K-Whit hasn't had the foresight to develop a capable backup QB for most of his tenure at Utah is no excuse.

    Utah has never beaten Houston or an FCS Boise State team, and the Utes lost to Utah State in Logan in 2012 and nearly lost to the Aggies at home in 2013.

    When was the last time a Utah team qualified for a bowl while playing a Top 40 schedule?

    Hint: It's NEVER happened.

    Your bold prediction of Utah being a sure fire bowl eligible team IF the Utes had played BYU's schedule is nothing but hot air.

  • AFCoug Colorado Springs, CO
    May 27, 2014 10:19 p.m.

    I think the term mid major should be applied to all the big 5 programs that really do not have any real chance at a championship. They are in major conferance sand mid tier in those conferance sat best. We could even call teams like Utah lower majors.

  • AFCoug Colorado Springs, CO
    May 27, 2014 10:12 p.m.

    @Crow

    Keep living that dream. Make big dollars to be Oregon and USC's doormat. You traded winning for money. Congrats. Dream on.

  • AFCoug Colorado Springs, CO
    May 27, 2014 10:09 p.m.

    @soonerute

    Please tell me where the qualifications to get into a big 5 conferance are and what Utah did to get there! No such list exists. If getting into a BCS bowl or winning one is a qualification why didn't Utah get in back in 04? Why is Boise St still on the outside looking in. Because ther are no such qualifications and Utah did not meet any such imaginary qualification. They simply got invited. Just like TCU, and Louisville before them. What qualifies an Iowa St, Washington St, Colorado, Mississippi St, Ole Miss, Kansas, Maryland, Virginia, etc. the list goes on and on. What makes them more special than a Boise St or BYU? Show me the qualifications on paper. They do not exist. It is a bunch of elitists that want to keep others out so they can hoard money. Nothing more.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 27, 2014 8:54 p.m.

    @ SportsFan

    Are you suggesting the Utah spent the entire season preparing for only the Wazzu game? Washington St. was not a bad team last season. They finished ranked 40th. Plus Utah was without their starting QB by the time the WSU game rolled around.

    Virginia finished ranked 106, MTSU 103, Nevada 98, and Utah actually did beat BYU and USU, so no coin flipping necessary. GT, UH, and Boise are all winnable games for the U as well.

  • xam Provo, UT
    May 27, 2014 8:48 p.m.

    BleedCougarBlue,

    Of all those great wins you mentioned (Oklahoma, Texas, Miami, Pittsburgh and UCLA), only the 1990 Miami team finished the year ranked. So those weren't really great wins after all. In fact Pitt went 3-7-1.

    Other than Miami and Kansas State, what P5 teams that finished the season ranked has BYU beat?

  • xam Provo, UT
    May 27, 2014 8:41 p.m.

    @Rose Bowl "when comes to laying goose eggs, NOBODY beats the U: SHUT OUT by 10-loss UNLV - 0-27... Beaten AT HOME by 10-loss Colorado - a team that hadn't won a road game in four years.

    You do realize that BYU lost to UNLV a few years prior to Utah's loss. Regarding Utah's loss to Colorado, did I hear somebody say 2-10 Virginia? Yes that same Virginia whose only other win came against the mighty Virginia Military Institute.

  • SportsFan Orem, UT
    May 27, 2014 7:22 p.m.

    twofer

    "If Utah and BYU switched schedules last year, UVA, MTSU, ISU, and Nevada are four virtually guaranteed wins. Add in wins over USU and BYU and just like that, Utah is already bowling with a chance to win 2-3 more."

    NOPE

    A team that lost to lowly 6-7 Washington State after an entire season to prepare,

    would have lost at Virginia, to Texas, coin flip with BYU, at Utah State, to Georgia Tech, at Houston, to Boise State, at Wisconsin, and at Notre Dame

    with probable wins versus Middle Tennessee State, versus Idaho State, and at Nevada,

    to finish 4-8 or 5-7.

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 27, 2014 6:21 p.m.

    navelvet

    Once again, Utah fans have to resort to ancient history with UTEP 1985.

    Unfortunately for U, the similarities stop there.

    BYU redeemed themselves by finishing 10-3, ranked #16/#17, with a close 10-7 loss to #14/#11 Ohio State in the Citrus Bowl.

    Utah 2007 and 2011 proved once again just how mediocre they've always been, beating another mediocre team in a bowl, finishing 8-5 and unranked, as usual.

  • Rose Bowl call yet? Salt Lake City, UT
    May 27, 2014 6:10 p.m.

    clark

    "BYU got SHUT OUT by Utah 3-0 in 2003. BYU got beaten by 10-loss Virginia 19-16 - a team BYU had no business losing, but did!"

    Nice try, but a 4-8 team losing 3-0 to a 21st ranked, 10-2 team doesn't even come close to the embarrassment of a 9-4 team, that had just pummeled UCLA 44-6, getting shut out by lowly 10-loss UNLV, a team that only beat one other team all season, 10-loss Utah State.

    BYU's loss to Virginia came on the road in the opening game of the season with a starting QB who was returning from season-ending knee surgery, mixed in with a 2-hour lightning delay in the 2nd quarter. Even so, BYU had the game won until a tipped, rain-soaked ball was intercepted late in the game, giving Virginia a gift touchdown.

    Compare that to Utah with a gift-wrapped PAC South there for the taking in the final regular season game, getting dominated, at home, in the first half by a team that hadn't won a road game in three years.

    Once again, when it comes to laying eggs, NOBODY compares to the Utes.

  • Jeremy234 SLC, UT
    May 27, 2014 5:45 p.m.

    As a Ute fan, I remember that when Colorado was trying to join the Big XII back in the 60s they played as many Big XII opponents as possible. That wouldn't be a bad idea for BYU to start there. As I see it the Big XII is still a long way off, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if SMU got an invite before the Cougars at this point. BYU should focus on getting home and homes with KU, KSU, Texas Tech, and Iowa State to start with. Give Baylor a call. I know that Baylor has been pretty good lately but not many schools want to travel to Waco, and Mormon-Baptist might be interesting. Those are get-able games for the Cougs. Start there.

  • CougarSunDevil Phoenix, AZ
    May 27, 2014 5:28 p.m.

    Amazing. I went and observed the number of people commenting on the "prestigious and relevant Utes" articles and the number tops the high teens. I come to the irrelevant BYU articles and see 100+ comments and so many comments by ute fans. Can't help but laugh at Utah's inability to let BYU go. Already looking forward to ASU's built in win on November 1st. We did that so as to give us a warm up game in which to rest our starters to help prepare ASU to play a real team (Notre Dame) the following week.

    Go Devils!
    (notice no bragging about conference affiliation)

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 27, 2014 4:10 p.m.

    @ Rose Bowl call yet?

    Utah would be more than good enough to qualify for a bowl if they played a mid-major schedule. If Utah and BYU switched schedules last year, UVA, MTSU, ISU, and Nevada are four virtually guaranteed wins. Add in wins over USU and BYU and just like that, Utah is already bowling with a chance to win 2-3 more. Do the same for BYU and I see 7 losses to Utah, UCLA, Stanford, Zona, USC, ASU, and Oregon. I could see BYU beating Washington St., and Oregon St., but I wouldn't be shocked if BYU lost both of those games as well.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    May 27, 2014 4:01 p.m.

    Clark W. Griswold:

    Don't forget about that UTEP game back in 1985 where the Y provided the Miners their sole win of the season.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 27, 2014 3:58 p.m.

    @ idaho cougar fan

    The ACC and SEC beg to differ as to whether BYU is relevant or not. And yes, the PAC-12 is one of the elite groups of schools in the nation. Utah is an equal member of the group. I don't understand why you are trying to argue that point.

  • Mexican Ute mexico, 00
    May 27, 2014 3:57 p.m.

    All you have to do is see how BYU plays the power conference schools, especially recently. Disappointing losses by 2 or more possessions. And I'm not talking about super power schools. I'm talking the middle of the road power schools.

    Utah lost by ONE point to a middle-to upper Arizona State. They beat Stanford who would later play in a BCS bowl. They lost by one possession to Oregon State and to UCLA. (BYU had a three-possession defeat to Oregon State the year before).

    Face it Cougar Fans. Your program is NOT the same it was twenty years ago. It has taken a big step backwards. The Utes have the growing pains of adjusting to life in a tougher conference, which they are starting to do well. No curb stompings like two years ago.

    While it is true that the last two years BYU wouldn't have to win any games to make it to the same type of bowl as Utah, when Utah wins six games BYU would have to win ten games to make that type of bowl. When Utah wins eight games, BYU would have to run the table.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 27, 2014 3:29 p.m.

    idaho cougar fan
    Twin Falls, ID

    "One of the elite group of schools in the nation??? LOL!!! Your recruiting numbers are evenly matched with BYU's. If you are elite so is BYU. LOL. 2 years of losing football with a third on the way makes you elite? Welcome to Utes reality everyone."

    Only a byu fan could take that comment and spin it into something that pertained to sports. This is exactly the reason that byu is in the pickle it's in today. Nothing but sports for byu and it's faithful followers. It's a shame too, because most of the elite conferences are about so much more. The Pac-12 certainly is.

    Oh, well...rise and shout.

  • idaho cougar fan Twin Falls, ID
    May 27, 2014 3:19 p.m.

    @SpokaneUte

    Ummm, your Cougars have lost 4 straight to Utah. Why didn't you mention that? Welcome to reality.

    I know we have. That is true reality. Also true reality, BYU is more relevent then Utah is. If you look on my last posts I never mentioned that BYU was elite, I just said we are still more relevent than the bottom feeder Utes. BYU is filet mignon and Utah is hot dogs.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    May 27, 2014 2:38 p.m.

    @idaho cougar fan

    Ummm, your Cougars have lost 4 straight to Utah. Why didn't you mention that? Welcome to reality.

  • idaho cougar fan Twin Falls, ID
    May 27, 2014 2:23 p.m.

    @MyPerspective

    You have to be kidding! You really enjoy seeing byu get this kind of press? Do you really think these stories make byu look superior??

    Our invitation to an elite conference was fantastic but not because it made us feel superior to byu. Good grief, we already knew that. The invitation cemented our place, forever, in one of elite group of schools in the nation.

    Utah's invitation to the Pac-12 served as a wake up call to byu fans as Utah County was put on suicide watch in June 2010. How incredibly humbling that must have been for you. And now here we are, watching it play out all over again. Lol!

    One of the elite group of schools in the nation??? LOL!!! Your recruiting numbers are evenly matched with BYU's. If you are elite so is BYU. LOL. 2 years of losing football with a third on the way makes you elite? Welcome to Utes reality everyone.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    May 27, 2014 1:15 p.m.

    The whole POINT of the rule is to NOT play mid majors like Wyoming and byu and Utah state.

    You are all mid majors!

    The arrogance of byu to come in and try and tell the big boys they don't know what they're doing by making this rule.

    No conference wants byU because byU is a mid major quality university and football program.

    THAT is why you aren't in a big boy conference and THAT is why the rule was put in place by these conferences in the first place.

    LOL at your weak attempt to try and tell the big boys what to do

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 27, 2014 12:57 p.m.

    idaho cougar fan
    Twin Falls, ID

    "Ute fans make me laugh...yet they continue to comment on BYU message boards. Talk about big brother syndrome! Ute fans were excited to go to a P5 conference because it made them feel superior to BYU for the first times in their life, yet BYU still gets more headlines, more press and is still much more relevent then the bottom feeder Utes."

    You have to be kidding! You really enjoy seeing byu get this kind of press? Do you really think these stories make byu look superior??

    Our invitation to an elite conference was fantastic but not because it made us feel superior to byu. Good grief, we already knew that. The invitation cemented our place, forever, in one of elite group of schools in the nation.

    Utah's invitation to the Pac-12 served as a wake up call to byu fans as Utah County was put on suicide watch in June 2010. How incredibly humbling that must have been for you. And now here we are, watching it play out all over again. Lol!

  • Idahotransplant West Jordan, UT
    May 27, 2014 12:47 p.m.

    Also,

    forgotten is that BYU has lost to a below average Pac-12 team in the Utes!!!!

  • VegasUte Las Vegas, NV
    May 27, 2014 12:40 p.m.

    U-PAC: The 2014 recruiting class "ranking" does not even take into consideration Lowell Lotulelei or Logan Stott. Add those two in and Utah's ranking skyrockets.

    Simpe: Utah didn't stop scheduling byU, we took a two year break to play a home and home against a power 5 school Michigan. byU is scheduled once again after that.

  • idaho cougar fan Twin Falls, ID
    May 27, 2014 12:00 p.m.

    Ute fans make me laugh. "We are so over BYU", "Stop complaining, no conference wanted you!" "BYU is irrelevant, they should get rid of their sports programs." Yet they continue to comment on BYU message boards. Talk about big brother syndrome! Ute fans were excited to go to a P5 conference because it made them feel superior to BYU for the first times in their life, yet BYU still gets more headlines, more press and is still much more relevent then the bottom feeder Utes. I would be jealous to if I was a Ute fan. Utah will maybe sniff a "playoff chance" every 8 years. Maybe once every 30 years, make it to the playoff. This is their reality and it is starting to h=get to them. BYU might not have many opportunities either, but at least we have more control over it then the Utes.

  • Simpe Spectator St.George, UT
    May 27, 2014 11:33 a.m.

    @Mark321
    Las Vegas, NV

    The utes keep scheduling byu because it allows them to gain some confidence before going into the regular season. Now it has just turned into a joke so they stopped scheduling them.

  • souptwins Lindon, UT
    May 27, 2014 10:41 a.m.

    College football is about money & power and retaining it at all cost. Nothing more. Utah fans commenting here should remember their roots and how hard they fought the injustice of it all just a few years ago. Of course the P5 (see, power is even in their chosen nick name) will only allow those to join their ranks that are in a chosen conference already. Any outsiders opens up a subjective line in the sand they don't want to hassle with. Everyone knows there are teams in those P5 conferences that are far from a top 65 program just as there are those not in the P5 that are easily top 65 programs. $$$ and power is all it's about--- not strength, academics, research titles, or any other stuff people may like to site. Until there's a 16 team playoff with all schools having equal opportunity, there will be a question as to who's the real NC. Upsets happen. Honest fans, no matter who they cheer for, know this is the truth.

  • Mark321 Las Vegas, NV
    May 27, 2014 10:40 a.m.

    @ Carson

    "I think it would be best if BYU just faded away."

    Carson,

    BYU does a whole lot of good in this world with academics as well as athletics. Think about the firesides that BYU players take time to do on road games which by the way packs chapels every time the firesides are held. Think about guys who aren't LDS who leave the university as better people through education and the church influence at BYU. Yes, some bad moments happen but students at BYU are human and make mistakes, but BYU does an overwhelmingly amount of good than bad. You may think it's best for BYU to fade away because of comment boards like this filled with Utah-lovin BYU-haters. Of course they are going to hate BYU. They've hated them for decades and will always hate them. In Las Vegas, you'll have a few fans hate BYU but the majority don't really care. The rivalry between UNLV-BYU basketball was a little heated in the closing years of BYU's stay in the Mountain West, but both teams had a lot of respect for one another.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 27, 2014 10:38 a.m.

    BleedCougarBlue
    Enid, OK

    @ ekute - Layton, UT - "So they're afraid of byu...but not ND. lol."

    Ahhhh....nice straw-man arguement there.

    Let me 'splain it to you (once again.....)

    They are afraid of losing to BYU, since BYU has, in fact, beaten even "elite" teams (and, that, even recently. Remember Oklahoma?

    -------------

    It depends on how you define an "elite" team.

    The last time BYU beat a final ranked Power 5 team was in 1996. Since then they have beat only 3 ranked teams (2006 #21 TCU, 2009 #18 Utah, 2012 #18 USU).

    In the BCS era BYU has a losing record against P5 teams, no BCS bowls, no BCS bowl wins.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 27, 2014 10:28 a.m.

    Mark321
    Las Vegas, NV

    @ Uteology

    "And BYU isn't even considered a sloppy third. Talk about being irrelevant."

    And if we are so irrelevant then why is your conference still scheduling us?

    -------------

    The same reason why the PAC-12 is scheduling Fresno State (Utah and USC), Hawaii (Washington and Oregon State), Wyoming (Oregon), Nevada (Arizona), New Mexico (ASU), etc.

    Mocking Utah as a sloppy second for a P5 conference, when your team is in 40 years discussions is just priceless.

  • Carson Provo, UT
    May 27, 2014 10:16 a.m.

    I think it would be best if BYU just faded away.

  • Simpe Spectator St.George, UT
    May 27, 2014 9:46 a.m.

    bahaha so ridiculous! I'm sure that the writer (and the majority of byu fans) also think that Utah stopped playing BYU because they were scared. haha gosh I don't know why I waste my time reading these articles. Its a continuous round of byu fans justifying why they think a mediocre team is the best in the nation.

  • Clark W. Griswold Sandy, Utah
    May 27, 2014 9:16 a.m.

    @ Rose Bowl call yet?

    "btw, when comes to laying goose eggs, NOBODY beats the U:

    SHUT OUT by 10-loss UNLV - 0-27 - a team that only beat one other team, 2-10 Utah State.
    Beaten AT HOME by 10-loss Colorado - a team that hadn't won a road game in four years"

    Let's see, BYU certainly can make their case for laying goose eggs:

    BYU got SHUT OUT by Utah 3-0 in 2003. BYU got beaten by 10-loss Virginia 19-16 - a team BYU had no business losing, but did!

    How can we not forget all the goose eggs BYU has laid against Utah?

    In 2004 Utah crushed BYU 52-21 - College Gameday was in town to witness that brutal beating and to see Utah crash the BCS. In 2008 Utah dismantles BYU 48-24 - Utah clinched a berth in the Sugar Bowl. My personal favorite, in 2011, Utah went down to Provo and took BYU to the woodshed winning 54-10 on YOUR home field.

    It's safe to say that BYU has had their fair share of laying goose eggs.

  • Rose Bowl call yet? Salt Lake City, UT
    May 27, 2014 8:10 a.m.

    2fer

    A fan of a team that isn't even good enough to qualify for bowl anymore, should worry more about his own team's steady decline 4-5, 3-6, 2-7, with a loss to lowly Washington State knocking the Utes out of contention for a bowl berth.

    btw, when comes to laying goose eggs, NOBODY beats the U:

    SHUT OUT by 10-loss UNLV - 0-27 - a team that only beat one other team, 2-10 Utah State.
    Beaten AT HOME by 10-loss Colorado - a team that hadn't won a road game in four years.

  • Mark321 Las Vegas, NV
    May 27, 2014 7:56 a.m.

    @ Adirondack Cougar

    I agree BYU will be fine.

  • Adirondack Cougar Loon Lake, NY
    May 27, 2014 4:15 a.m.

    MyPerspective
    Salt Lake City, UT

    My 'plea' is for BYU fans to have some patience and watch this all unfold. Nothing is final yet. The playoff will expand and the P5 conferences will change some more. The goal is to get to the NC playoff. I just believe that the road BYU has taken will get them to the same place in the end and I predict faster than Utah, due to the things I mentioned above.
    If the P5 conferences do get their way then they will only say that they have the P5 champion, not the NCAA champion. Until it is more inclusive like Bball will we really have a NC.
    BYU did out recruit Utah last year. Just ask Chris B. he even admitted it. I know only by a faction of number but it is a start. Let's see what happens this year. In the mean time good luck to both teams and let's see how things unfold.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 27, 2014 12:29 a.m.

    "They are afraid of losing to BYU, since BYU has, in fact, beaten even "elite" teams (and, that, even recently. Remember Oklahoma? Yeah, I thought so. However, BYU has laid a few goose egs, too. Like Virginia. That was a croc. But before you try to foolishly claim that BYU "always" does that, look at Oklahoma. And Miami. And Pittsburg. And UCLA. "

    So, four big wins in the past 24 years? Nice.

    Also, OU has a big name, but they were a mediocre team in 2009

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 27, 2014 12:18 a.m.

    @ CA. reader

    Isn't BYU 2-13 against the last 15 ranked teams they've played? BYU does not have the reputation of a giant killer. Sure they beat Texas, they also lost to UVA, Wisconsin, ND, Utah, and Washington.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    May 27, 2014 12:04 a.m.

    I'm so tired of hearing this.
    Ask yourself BYU fans, why would Colorado leave the BIG 12 for the PAC 12? Colorado was already planning an exit strategy before that came up. Like Nebraska, they became tired of Texas bullying everyone else in the Big 12. When Nebraska left, Colorado had already planned on leaving. That is a fact.

    And call it whatever you want (sloppy seconds or whatever) Colorado and Utah were picked up by the PAC 12.
    BYU was not invited, get over it.
    You chose the the path of independence, live with it.
    BYU legacy means nothing to power conferences, get used to it.
    The door is gradually shutting on your football program, realize it.
    Find another football program to be a fan of, plan on it.

  • Mark321 Las Vegas, NV
    May 26, 2014 10:44 p.m.

    @ MyPerspective

    "LOL! Religion had nothing to do with it. The Pac-12 is out of byu's reach.

    It's fun to watch you fixate on the Utes but again, byu's problem is not Utah, the Pac-12, the SEC, the ACC, the Big10, or the Big 12. So, Mark321...what's left?"

    You didn't make any sense with that rant. Fixated on the Utes? And here you are on a BYU comment board, so who's fixated on who? Very hypocritical

  • BleedCougarBlue Enid, OK
    May 26, 2014 10:34 p.m.

    @ ekute - Layton, UT - "So they're afraid of byu...but not ND. lol."

    Ahhhh....nice straw-man arguement there.

    Let me 'splain it to you (once again.....)

    They are afraid of losing to BYU, since BYU has, in fact, beaten even "elite" teams (and, that, even recently. Remember Oklahoma? Yeah, I thought so. However, BYU has laid a few goose egs, too. Like Virginia. That was a croc. But before you try to foolishly claim that BYU "always" does that, look at Oklahoma. And Miami. And Pittsburg. And UCLA.

    As far as Notre Dame goes, they are afraid. But not afraid of losing to them. Nope, losing to Notre Dame is a very strong possibility. But they still "fear" Notre Dame, or to be more specific, they fear looking like cowards if they DON'T play Notre Dame.

    All you have to do is open your eyes.

    BTW, how's that 3-year losing record working out for you?

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 26, 2014 10:14 p.m.

    Mark321
    Las Vegas, NV

    "...but the Pac 12 didn't want a religious school. Money and market was what got them in not recent success."

    LOL! Religion had nothing to do with it. The Pac-12 is out of byu's reach.

    It's fun to watch you fixate on the Utes but again, byu's problem is not Utah, the Pac-12, the SEC, the ACC, the Big10, or the Big 12. So, Mark321...what's left?

  • Mark321 Las Vegas, NV
    May 26, 2014 10:13 p.m.

    @ Uteology

    "And BYU isn't even considered a sloppy third. Talk about being irrelevant."

    And if we are so irrelevant then why is your conference still scheduling us?

  • Guam_Bomb BARRIGADA, GU
    May 26, 2014 10:13 p.m.

    BYU fans won't like this, but the Y's football program just doesn't bring enough to the table. The risk vs. reward benefits just aren't there for ACC and SEC teams. I'll agree that they aren't willing to risk a loss to BYU. But that's because the benefits of a win aren't big enough to justify derailing your season if you lose. No matter how bad they want it to be, BYU isn't Notre Dame. LSU or Clemson isn't going to move up 5-10 spots by beating the Cougars. Even if BYU goes into a game against these teams unbeaten, it's not likely to be in the last month of the season when it would benefit their opponent the most.

    If BYU's offense had excelled the way the defense has the last few years, then they'd have an argument. But they never busted the BCS. So what's changed that would make them want to play BYU now?

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 26, 2014 9:40 p.m.

    @Mark321

    Utah's BCS bowl victories had nothing to do with it. Utah was sloppy seconds or option 2 when option 1 Texas, Oklahoma and other big 12 teams chose to stay big 12.

    ------------

    And BYU isn't even considered a sloppy third. Talk about being irrelevant.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    May 26, 2014 9:18 p.m.

    Even with 2 looses we deserve a shot at playoffs.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    May 26, 2014 9:00 p.m.

    It's articles like this that bother me when it comes to SOME BYU fans. SEC & ACC scared of including BYU? C'mon...that's about as ridiculous as Utah fans saying they're improving with 4-5, 3-6, and 2-7 subsequent seasons. The SEC didn't exempt BYU because they didn't want the hassle of having to explain to other schools like Boise State that they wouldn't be exempt despite having a much higher FBS win record than BYU including two BCS victories.

    BYU needs to get in the Big 12 or the path to relevancy will be long arduous and probably won't bear fruit. Time for some humility BYU fans, coaches, and administrators. You aren't Stanford in academics and you aren't Alabama in sports, stop asking for TV rights that others don't have or RIP...it's really that simple.

  • Mark321 Las Vegas, NV
    May 26, 2014 8:25 p.m.

    @ MyPerspective

    "So, if I get the full intent of your drift, let's just say that byu is no Rutgers."

    True but in the other sense, Rutgers is no BYU either. Not the tradition nor history or success that BYU has had in football as well as other bottom feeder programs from the power 5 conference compared to BYU's tradtion, history, and success.Rutgers has one thing on BYU that got them in and that's market. After option 1 failed for the Pac 12 which was poaching Big 12 schools, there next option was markets and that was Colorado (Denver market) and Utah (SLC market) to create a conference championship game to create more money. BYU has a large market in the SLC market as well, but the Pac 12 didn't want a religious school. Money and market was what got them in not recent success.

    "Boise St had it's chance to move to the P5 but backed out when the Big East fell apart."

    The Big East was never going to get a seat at the table even with Boise State in their conference. Boise State would've never left the Big East if they were part of the power 5.

  • Coolhead55 North Logan, UT
    May 26, 2014 8:12 p.m.

    BYU is an independent and adds nothing to benefit those that belong to P5 conferences. The comparisons to ND are laughable. BYU is so far distant from ND in prestige, tradition and long term quality of play that neither BYU, or Utah for that matter, can even see their tail lights. ND makes enough on fan gear and concession sells alone to run most non-football Collegiate AD's. They have proven through the years with victories that they belong. It truly means something to beat ND. Right now, if you are a strong team, beating BYU means nothing. If you are a weak P5 team, BYU may beat you and thereby keep you out of a bowl. BYU can only take from the P5 conferences, it has nothing to give. A question, so far unaddressed, is whether a non-P5 school will be able to compete in recruiting against P5 schools with the impending cost of the P5 scholarship rule changes. ND obviously can. The ESPN deal is sweet, but maybe not sweet enough. As an independent, I wonder, maybe erroneously, if their is a question about BYU's financial abilities and commitments with scholarship changes.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 26, 2014 6:49 p.m.

    Adirondack Cougar
    Loon Lake, NY

    "BYU doesn't have a top ten caliber team at the moment. Utah doesn't have a top ten caliber team either. Yes Utah has an easier pathway to the playoff right now, but really only on paper. So would you rather be in Utah's shoes, being thrown in the deep end, trying to swim with the big boys. Utah is now without much exposure, and their recruiting base is pretty much the Rocky Mts and west. Meanwhile BYU has the luxury of playing all over the country. BYU's recruiting base is expanding. The results are already being seen, as BYU out 'stared' Utah this past season and I expect that to continue."

    Your plea is completely based on what Utah is doing. An entertaining read but you realize, don't you, that Utah is not byu's problem.

    btw...the so called luxury byu has of playing all over the country is looking more and more like it's dependent on who they are trying to schedule. Also, byu did not out star the Utes in recruiting. Again, Utah is not byu's problem.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 26, 2014 6:39 p.m.

    Mark321
    Las Vegas, NV

    "How about Rutgers? What incredible season did they have to earn there way into the Big 10? How about Colorado? What incredible season did they have to earn there way into the Pac 12?...How about Boise State didn't they have 2 incredible seasons like Utah?"

    Rutgers brings more to the table than sports and have been a member of the Big10 since it's beginning, I believe. So, if I get the full intent of your drift, let's just say that byu is no Rutgers.

    Colorado is much the same story but with the Big12.

    Boise St had it's chance to move to the P5 but backed out when the Big East fell apart.

    "Utah's BCS bowl victories had nothing to do with it. Utah was sloppy seconds or option 2 when option 1 Texas, Oklahoma and other big 12 teams chose to stay big 12."

    I will agree that Utah's BCS bowl victories were most certainly not the only consideration in their invite to the Pac-12 but it was a factor. The Pac12 is about much more than sports.

  • Adirondack Cougar Loon Lake, NY
    May 26, 2014 6:24 p.m.

    BYU fans take a deep breath. Sure it would be nice to be in a P5 conference right now, or would it? BYU doesn't have a top ten caliber team at the moment. Utah doesn't have a top ten caliber team either. Yes Utah has an easier pathway to the playoff right now, but really only on paper. So would you rather be in Utah's shoes, being thrown in the deep end, trying to swim with the big boys. Utah is now without much exposure, and their recruiting base is pretty much the Rocky Mts and west. Meanwhile BYU has the luxury of playing all over the country. BYU's recruiting base is expanding. The results are already being seen, as BYU out 'stared' Utah this past season and I expect that to continue. As BYU gets better athletes, not only will they win more games they will also look more attractive to a P5 conference. In the meantime BYU can keep going to bowl games and improving. How does Utah improve when they are losing more than winning and their recruits have offers to the warmer, winning teams in the rest of the PAC-12?

  • Sambonethegreat Salt Lake City, UT
    May 26, 2014 6:11 p.m.

    Some of the assertions by the author are outright ridiculous.

    The Mountain West conference most certainly doesn't need BYU as much as BYU needs the Mountain West conference.

    Why, if Thompson follows through and decides not to schedule BYU going forward, BYU football would be in some serious trouble. The Cougs on average schedule 4 MW teams a year. That's a third of the season!

    Besides, one earlier poster said it best: "If BYU won't share their negotiated spoils with anyone in college football, why should anyone in college football want to share their negotiated spoils with BYU?"

    If BYU doesn't bend on BYUtv, they can forget about ever being in a major conference.

  • Mark321 Las Vegas, NV
    May 26, 2014 6:04 p.m.

    @ 1 SLC Sports fan

    BYU will never drop sports. It has been entertained way too much on this and other boards and it just won't happen. If BYU needs to drop sports because of "measured decline" than there will be other programs (even some in power 5 conferences who are in measured decline too) who need to give up sports as well. It will take a Penn State-Sandusky scenario to happen for the church to pull the plug on BYU sports and that scenario will probably remove football only. People forget how good BYU is in its Olympic sports. One of the best all-around Olympic sports programs in the country.

  • CA. reader Rocklin, CA
    May 26, 2014 5:58 p.m.

    I have a question: do you think these big boys would schedule Utah? Of course they would because they know they would get a win against a power conference without having to play a power team. Whether you like it or not BYU has a history of slapping down the big boys when it is least expected. Just ask Texas. They thought they had a walk-on/walk-off win after we lost to Virginia.

  • #1 SLC Sports Fan Salt Lake City, UT
    May 26, 2014 5:23 p.m.

    BYU has been a football program in measured decline since the mid-1990s, it is time for the LDS church senior leaders to just drop it entirely. It has been done at the maller 2 LDS Church schools, why not Provo?

  • nothegame Saratoga Springs, UT
    May 26, 2014 5:19 p.m.

    I will say that if byu played the Utes schedule they would not even reach a bowl game. Do u really think u are better than Utah and TCU. They both can't get to a bowl game. I wonder why could it be because of the schedule they play? I wish those conferences would play u so u could keep saying love my independents. And Pac 10.2 your.

  • John S. Harvey Sandy, UT
    May 26, 2014 4:58 p.m.

    I agree with the author that the P5 decision makers don't want to risk losing a spot in the play-offs. I don't agree that means they are "afraid" of BYU. These folks simply know that the safest course of action is to consider all theoretically possibilities whereby they could lose a spot and then counter-act as many of them as they can.

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    May 26, 2014 3:54 p.m.

    @afcoug we are not shut out any more we are part of the Big5 and will receive a full share of the PAC12 payout this year. We don't have to remember being shut out because we are living the dream that most byu fans would kill for.

  • Mark321 Las Vegas, NV
    May 26, 2014 3:23 p.m.

    @ my perspective

    "Utah received its reward from its incredible 2004 and 2008 season"

    How about Rutgers? What incredible season did they have to earn there way into the Big 10? How about Colorado? What incredible season did they have to earn there way into the Pac 12? Granted they were already in the Big 12 but you get my drift. How about Boise State didn't they have 2 incredible seasons like Utah?

    Utah's BCS bowl victories had nothing to do with it. Utah was sloppy seconds or option 2 when option 1 Texas, Oklahoma and other big 12 teams chose to stay big 12.

  • BlueHusky Mission Viejo, CA
    May 26, 2014 3:14 p.m.

    I don't think it has anything to do with BYU's SOS, or more importantly, the SOS bump you get when playing (and beating) BYU.

    Remember, even if you're Alabama, you have to win to get to the playoffs. So BYU is not an automatic, but in fact is dangerous. So in the recent past Alabama schedule real pusycats. Well, they can't do that now, they have to play some tough teams. Again, BYU is a risk, so to minimize the risk, they would only play them in Tuscaloosa.

    This is the story, boys and girls. Simply a matter of optimizing your chances of getting to the playoffs. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Now lets consider the other 64 teams. Many of those will need a big win. We know who they are: the middle of the pack in the "Power 5". None of these teams are very good, so BYU is a win-win for them. If they lose, so what? Doesn't count. If they win, it might count in a tie-breaker. Beating BYU is a good win, and doesn't hurt to lose to BYU.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 26, 2014 2:50 p.m.

    U-PAC
    Rowlett, TX

    "Since BYU-Provo is already Div 2 in all other sports, why shouldn't they just stop the "indy" madness and beg the Big Sky Conference for an invite? It's quite clear that the MWC doesn't want BYU again and the P5 conferences are not going to be even a slight possibility for many justifiable reasons."

    Well said, U-PAC. This is exactly the model we should all be driving for.

    let's roll
    LEHI, UT

    "If a conference were really a power conference and truly wanted to ensure its teams had a top-notch SOS it could enact a rule that all OOC games had to be against teams whose Sagarin ranking averaged at let 65 over the last 3 years."

    A logistical nightmare for which there is no need. The P5 programs should simply play all 12 games against P5 programs. No rankings needed...winner takes all. The Div I and Div II can do whatever they want (except play P5 programs).

  • let's roll LEHI, UT
    May 26, 2014 1:37 p.m.

    The fallacy of most of these comments is that there is some connection with all P5 conference teams and SOS. Fact is, you could craft a 12 game schedule against 12 P5 conference teams and have that SOS be in the 70 range...the range most like to characterize as a soft schedule, at least for a P5 school.

    If a conference were really a power conference and truly wanted to ensure its teams had a top-notch SOS it could enact a rule that all OOC games had to be against teams whose Sagarin ranking averaged at let 65 over the last 3 years. No need to give teams a waiver. It's objective and fair. Mission accomplished.

  • Elmer Fudd Sandy, Utah
    May 26, 2014 1:04 p.m.

    @ 4601

    "utah hides behind the mantel of the PAC 12 and not on its own merit either athletically or academically"

    BYU hides behind the religious discrimination excuse to justify why they were never invited to join a power conference and Utah did.

  • DEW Cougars Sandy, UT
    May 26, 2014 12:56 p.m.

    "very powerful Utah teams" - hmm, why don't you say "Mighty Very Powerful Utah Teams." Lol!

    Okay Utah, when are you guys going start winning?

    All BYU have to do is start winning too. Yeah, we have those ucon, Savanah, ucf, houston, and houston on our schedle that we should win them. I know USU should be mighty too. There is no excuse losing to Virginia this time around at home, PLEASE!

  • Stringer Bell Henderson, NV
    May 26, 2014 11:44 a.m.

    Kralon "Clearly BYU is historically and currently better than many of the worst teams in the Big 5."

    Based on what criteria? As stated before, several games a year against mostly average P5 schools, preceded by either a week off or a Savannah State-like team is not the same as the week in week out rigors of a big time P5 schedule. Utah and their fans clearly underestimated the effect of this after joining the PAC 12. Also see TCU. BYU would be average at best with these schedules. Also,if you can't beat an otherwise winless Virginia how can you say that BYU is currently better than them?

  • estreetshuffle Window Rock, AZ
    May 26, 2014 11:28 a.m.

    Oh Well, we could make Volleyball a Power 5 and we'll come on Saturdays in watch them in Cougar Stadium. I think it is better to stay away from that mess dyiound ther younder with the aligators and opisums which is the ACC and SEC the Dukes of Hazard mentality--corrupt and hypocritical

  • Zona Zone Mesa, AZ
    May 26, 2014 11:20 a.m.

    Wyoming is a Division II team. For proof, see every Wyoming Cowboy game played in the last 15 years.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    May 26, 2014 10:58 a.m.

    The issue is where do they draw the line? They can't just use "what teams are good" because that changes from year to year. So they have the P5 because they know on average those are the 5 best leagues. Now what about the others? Do you start cherrypicking teams like Northern Illinois or Boise State that have been successful in recent years? Do you start cycling things where you only include non-P5 teams that were ranked top 25? They included Notre Dame because of their history, and just left it at that.

    Regardless, BYU can still get on these schedules. Voters and computers know how good or bad BYU is any given year. They know the difference between Kentucky and Oregon and Akron and San Diego State. The ACC and SEC have 8 conference games. Take Georgia Tech. Last year they played BYU and the P5 team Georgia. Virginia played BYU and P5 team Oregon. I really don't think this'll be a big problem. The only hard part is getting teams available to play in October-November.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 26, 2014 10:36 a.m.

    "First off, the part about Craig Thompson and the Mountain West Conference won't be discussed at length here because they don't matter. The only reason I can see that Thompson — the conference commissioner — spoke up was to get a rise out of BYU and its fans and nothing more.

    Mountain West Conference teams need games against BYU as much or more than the Cougars do. They need the notoriety of playing BYU and more importantly, they need the air time."

    byu fans will find out how much Thompson and the MWC don't matter if they decide to make scheduling P5 teams priority #1 and leave the mid-majors as an after thought. If that decision is made, it will be based on making the strongest case possible for playing in a major bowl game, i.e., Fiesta Bowl and nothing more. MCW is only doing what is in their best interest.

    byu doesn't need the MWC? Take MWC teams off byu's schedule and byu is finished.

    MWC needs the air time? I watched every USU games last year...how much more air time do they need?

  • HowbouthisJAZZ Saratoga Springs, UT
    May 26, 2014 10:05 a.m.

    @stanfunky

    Thank you for looking at this as a college football fan, not as a Ute fan. This article is 100% accurate. Most Ute fans won't see it because the argument seems to be only about BYU. I don't think that was the author's intent. The point is that these power conferences are very scared of BYU, just as they are scared of Boise and Fresno. They are scared of the top mid major teams because in a good year these so-called mid major teams can pull off an upset. In the bcs, they could exclude teams like tcu, Boise, and utah from the championship game. Even if those teams were undefeated. With a playoff, they can't do that. If there was a playoff in 2008, There's a good chance that Utah wins the NC. This is how it will be for mid majors. The argument is not only about BYU, it's about all mid majors. The only reason BYU is being singled out here is that it happens to be independent.

  • Old But Not Stupid Moorpark, CA
    May 26, 2014 9:45 a.m.

    Crow
    Sandy , UT

    "Ask Virginia they know they can schedule byu for a easy win."

    So, Crow, after BYU beats VA in the Fall, you are going to eat crow, right?

  • tinplater scottsdale, AZ
    May 26, 2014 9:41 a.m.

    Wow! Afraid of BYU but not Notre Dame? The most absurd reasoning in this "commentary". It's the old if they don't want us we must be too good for them attitude. The spin capable of the paranoia laced Cougar free lance authors is impressive.

  • 10CC Bountiful, UT
    May 26, 2014 9:33 a.m.

    Ask the insiders at Utah and TCU if there is a difference playing a P5 conference schedule. Hint: The SOS issue everyone in the State of Utah used to mock is real and pretty strong.

    Don't just laugh at Utah... ask TCU.

    Notre Dame plays 9-10 P5 teams year in & year out. BYU may eventually get to that kind of schedule, but it's a Catch-22 they're in now: Win against P5 teams and become undesirable to schedule, a serious black eye for those P5 teams that you beat. Lose to P5 teams and you may find your scheduling opportunities improve, but you're still considered non-P5.

    Look at how BYU beating Texas last year was received: Texas fired the Defensive Coordinator on the flight home, and the head coach was forced into retirement at the end of the season.

    Tell me again why P5 teams should be excited to play BYU?

  • The Rock Federal Way, WA
    May 26, 2014 9:24 a.m.

    The BCS was created as a reaction to BYU winning the national championship in 1984. It was designed to keep BYU out.

    Why would they let them in today?

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 26, 2014 9:08 a.m.

    Mark321
    Las Vegas, NV

    "I have lost respect more and more since than for the Utes and especially many of their fans because they are so slow to forget."

    Utah has received its reward for their incredible 2004 and 2008 season...a sweet set up in the Pac-12. Life just doesn't get any better. You don't need to worry about us.

    "Until everyone has a shot to win it like NCAA basketball tournament which is not asking a whole lot just a 8-10 teams playoff platform which many advocate anyways..."

    How does an 8-10 team playoff translate into everyone having a shot to win like NCAA basketball? What about Division II programs?

    Why aren't byu fans raising the flag of injustice about the separation of Division II and Division I? Why do byu fans think it's "fair" that they have money coming from ESPN but no one else has a deal like that? byu already has more than it deserves but we don't see other programs griping about it. Get over yourselves.

    Nick Saban is right...the Big5 should schedule games between themselves and create a new division.

  • 81Ute Central, UT
    May 26, 2014 9:07 a.m.

    Sir, I diasagree and reject your conclusion completely. BYU is not a member of a P5 conference, therefore they cannot be counted as such. This has nothing to do with ability on the field of play it will, however, remove any potential argument regarding SOS. The schools of the PAC12, BIG10, and BIG12 will all play a minimum of 9 P5 schools (9 conference games of which all members are P5 schools by definition). The ACC and SEC must, by definition, do the same. Therefore, this has absolutely nothing to do with BYU other than they are not a member of a P5 conference. Some of you will argue the neither is Notre Dame and they count. Well, BYU is not Notre Dame, not even close. Again, put your egos aside, this is not about BYU.

    This issue is a nonstarter, the real problem for BYU is the potential rules violations. If you think being a cougar is rough now, just wait until those allegations are proven to be true. This ACC/SEC 'tempest in a teapo.... er cocoa dispenser' will be shown to be as trivail as it really is.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    May 26, 2014 9:04 a.m.

    AFCoug "Only 3 years ago all of Ute nation understood and fought this battle. Now suddenly they have short term memory loss"

    Cougar fans should remember how Utah won the battle. In the talk of lawsuits and unfair exclusion, Utah - particularly Urban Meyer - asked "What does it take to qualify for a BCS game? OK. We'll do that." They followed the rules. They beat the rules. They got in.

    If BYU wants to considered a major on the schedule, you can talk of lawsuits and unfair exclusion. OR, you can ask "What does it take to qualify as a major?" Then do that.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 26, 2014 8:56 a.m.

    4601
    Salt Lake City, UT

    "utah hides behind the mantel of the PAC 12 and not on its own merit either athletically or academically."

    LOL!

  • David Centerville, UT
    May 26, 2014 8:37 a.m.

    It is interesting to read this article and all of the attending comments.

    I hope that the administration, football coaches and players at BYU will simply win on the field. I am sure there is a battle behind the scenes in offices and on phones. But on the field, that is where BYU can speak the loudest. They must stop losing games to Virginia, Texas, Utah and teams from the P5s. They should be regularly and consistently winning those games and then the Power 5s would not feel they could get away with excluding BYU as they are now, or at least not as easily.

    Just win games against the "great" conferences and teams.

    I am hoping that Bronco and players will turn this slap towards greater effort on the field, greater preparation for games, and solid wins.

  • xert Santa Monica, CA
    May 26, 2014 8:09 a.m.

    This is what Utah experienced after running the table twice in short order, playing very tough schedules and being set aside while others played for the National Championship. That's being left out and it hurts. But we should remember that all of that came in the wake of a 1984 National Championship that went to a team that played a nothing schedule and beat a 19th ranked 6-6 Michigan team in the Holiday Bowl. That was a wonderful team, but they were not the best team in the nation. This was never going to be allowed to happen and suddenly SOS became the catch phrase that could be used in any way necessary to make certain the NCAA and the power schools and conferences got what they wanted on National Championship night. Now this program, which I respect and which (even as a Ute fan) I know is better than many, many teams in the Power 5 conferences is being put in a too tough to play, not prestigious enough to schedule, box. The Y needs a conference.

  • xam Provo, UT
    May 26, 2014 8:07 a.m.

    I thought only Utah was afraid of BYU, now the entire SEC and ACC are afraid of the Cougars too? I'm sure Clemson, Alabama, Florida State and LSU are all shaking in their boots at the very thought of playing BYU. Jay and some of the other Cougar faithful need to check their egos at the door. You are not who you think you are.

    Arrogance along with a lack of signature wins is what has gotten the Cougars in to the position they're in today. An HD truck, fans in China, quest for perfection and making demands with the Big 12 isn't the right recipe. Win a few meaningful football games against teams that finish the season ranked.... that will do wonders for the future of the program.

  • Frozen Chosen Savage, MN
    May 26, 2014 8:00 a.m.

    Your reasoning makes sense. The other factor is that teams do not want to come to Provo because it can be a very tough place to play. They saw what happened to Texas in Provo last year. Why take a chance on losing? Boise State has the same problem.

    P5 schools have no problem doing a home and home series with schools like Wyoming and Colorado State because they're not worried about losing on the road to those schools.

  • Mark321 Las Vegas, NV
    May 26, 2014 7:33 a.m.

    @ AFCoug

    "Only 3 years ago all of Ute nation understood and fought this battle. Now suddenly they have short term memory loss and are so much better than they used to be? True Ute fans should remember how they felt being shut out, twice. They should still be enraged about CFB and the monopoly that it is. Instead so many have now decided they are better than the schools they continue to lose to simply because now, they make the big bucks.

    I couldn't agree more. I have lost respect more and more since than for the Utes and especially many of their fans because they are so slow to forget. Even if BYU makes it to the Big 12, for me it's always about the team, not the conference that they play in, so you won't find me slapping a Big 12 sticker on the back of my car. Team loyalty > Conference affiliation. Until everyone has a shot to win it like NCAA basketball tournament which is not asking a whole lot just a 8-10 teams playoff platform which many advocate anyways, college football will insure that the ugly stepsisters keep cinderella out.

  • JSB Sugar City, ID
    May 26, 2014 7:29 a.m.

    BYU should drop all inter school sports like BYU-Idaho and BYU-Hawaii have. It hasn't hurt these universities; in fact, academically, BYU-Idaho's reputation has grown significantly and continues to grow. BYU-Hawaii will probably do the same. Do employers come to a campus to find competent potential employees because of the university's football team or because of the university's reputation for preparing students for the world of work. The sooner BYU drops inter school athletics, the more likely I will be to donate to them because I will then know they are no longer distracted by non education functions like football and basketball.

  • KimmyP Granstville, UT
    May 26, 2014 7:17 a.m.

    @ jmoney

    The cougars are the best team on the field whether they win or lose, yet the P5 won't schedule us, waaaaaaa...

  • ItrustNo1 La Grange, TN
    May 26, 2014 7:13 a.m.

    I think this article has some logic to it, but on the other hand it doesn't solve BYU's problem. BYU has got to join a major conference, and sooner than later. The BYU flag is not waving as high as it once was. Every year the quality of home games seem to not be improving while the quality of away games are getting harder and harder to book. This new BCS playoff is what it is, and if BYU is not at the table as a member of a major conference, over time, will become less and less relevant in major college circles, affecting fan base, recruiting and the byutv audience. We need to be aggressive, and make an offer to the Big 12 that they can't refuse (we receive no additional revenue from the conference until the remainder of the ESPN contract expires in five years). We give up new revenue, but it changes nothing financially for us or the Big 12 as we stand now. We maintain our no Sunday play rule, but give up something for it. The byutv deal can be solved too.

  • 4601 Salt Lake City, UT
    May 26, 2014 7:05 a.m.

    ekute
    Layton, UT

    The SEC playing BYU is like BYU playing Utah State. If you win you get no glory and if you lose you get ridicule. utah hides behind the mantel of the PAC 12 and not on its own merit either athletically or academically.

  • CougOrUte..Naah Nibley, UT
    May 26, 2014 6:53 a.m.

    The author seems to be living in the past. Since going independent BYU seems to have lost not only relevancy but also their ability to manipulate their MWC peers. Most of the MWC teams have moved on and are scheduling bigger and more prestigious teams. Wyoming with Oregon, USU with Tennessee and Wake Forest. The Cougs can no longer demand 2 FOR 1s with the MWC or anyone for that matter. Utah has obviously out grown the Cougs. 10 year ago the Y was obviously more prestigious than the U, but that ship has come and gone. Although the U struggles in the PAC 10+2 they obviously made the right move. The Cougs and independence, not so much. There is no conspiracy here, the Y and their fans need a dose of reality and see where their program has declined to. Especially this author.

  • stanfunky Salt Lake City, UT
    May 26, 2014 6:47 a.m.

    Well-reasoned and logical argument. I believe it's right on the money. And this is from a Utah fan.

  • average_joe Proovo, UT
    May 25, 2014 11:57 p.m.

    Or consider that since Pac 12 schools schedule BYU more frequently, they don't want BYU to be considered a quality opponent since that will beef up the Pac 12's overall strength of schedule more than their own. If the ACC and SEC played BYU all the time, they would want their wins to be celebrated and their losses justified, but they don't want the Pac 12 to take that recognition every time they play BYU since they do it much more often.

  • gdog3finally West Jordan, Utah
    May 25, 2014 11:32 p.m.

    I am sorry but this article is so inaccurate I can't even talk myself into spending the time trying to submit multiple comments to refute it. It would be too lengthy. These opinions here are so contrary to reality that I actually feel somewhat insulted as a reader of this paper to be subjected to it, especially after it's presented almost as fact in a few instances (arguments) here.

    If BYU played 8 games against P5 opponents and then Boise State, Houston ect.. What? That won't happen unless BYU joins a P5 conference and then they would never in a million years be undefeated. I actually think BYU has a great chance of going undefeated this year. But so what? With that schedule, if they do it and make the playoffs, then BYU would have no reason to join a conference, that is unless their fans want exciting regular season games other than the YMCA of Idaho.

  • Uncle Rico Provo, UT
    May 25, 2014 11:31 p.m.

    Why should BYU get rewarded for going independent?

    If the ACC/SEC said BYU would count toward one of the non-conference high-quality teams, then wouldn't that punish Boise State or Fresno State for being in the MWC? Boise St and others could then come out as independent and be counted as a high-quality opponent.

    ACC/SEC would then have to redefine what makes a quality opponent, instead they just leave it at Power 5 schools (and Notre Dame - who basically is an unofficial ACC member anyway).

    Idaho and Old Dominion are Independent, would they qualify too?
    If you exclude Boise St then you have to exclude BYU too.

  • Bleed Crimson Sandy, Utah
    May 25, 2014 11:27 p.m.

    "A look at why BYU won't count in the plus one for the ACC and SEC"

    Looks like another article to point out that BYU is the victim.

  • Rock Chalk Jayhawk 75 Kansas City, KS
    May 25, 2014 11:14 p.m.

    Finally someone nailed it. It should be obvious to even the most novice college football fan, that this scheduling setback is just another example of The Man trying to keep the Cougars down.
    File this under Persecution Complex, Delusions of Grandeur, and how to handle the Five Stages of Grief as a sports fan in today's world. Thank you Guest Commentator Jay Money for giving me a good chuckle to start my day. I hope you remembered to post this to Bleacher Report as well.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    May 25, 2014 11:03 p.m.

    Another article on this? Repeat the lie often enough...

    BYU does NOT need to be considered a "major" to schedule games against the SEC and ACC. The SEC and ACC will still have mid-majors on the schedule and that is BYU. BYU could schedule those conferences right now today, this minute! But they won't.

    The major teams are afraid to play BYU? Please. BYU is afraid to schedule 9 majors because they'd lose bowl eligibility. It happened to Utah. It happened to TCU. It would happen to BYU.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    May 25, 2014 10:44 p.m.

    Attn: BYU.

    Wyoming has a future home and home with Oregon.

    Sounds like BYU needs to be back in the MWC. At least they are scheduling good teams.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    May 25, 2014 10:37 p.m.

    Looks like MWC teams have no problem scheduling future games against power conference teams.
    Take the paycheck and run!! Win or lose, that's more than can be said for BYU.

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    May 25, 2014 10:18 p.m.

    According to the author-
    Mountain West Conference teams need games against BYU as much or more than the Cougars do. They need the notoriety of playing BYU and more importantly, they need the air time.

    ____________

    LOL!
    Why does the MWC need BYU for notoriety?

    Wyoming had a home & home with Texas, home & home with Nebraska (only lost by 3 point on the road) last year), home and home with Texas A&M, has won at Tennessee.
    USU almost beat Auburn & Wisconsin on the road.
    Colorado State won at Virginia, played Alabama last season.
    Nevada beat Boston College in a bowl three years ago. And has played several games against the PAC 12. Since 2007 Nevada has played a home and home against Missouri, and a home and home against Texas Tech, and played NEB,

    New Mexico plays Big 12 teams regularly, played Arkansas in 2011, also played Pitt.

    Over the past decade, Fresno St has played several power conference teams.

    Have MWC teams lost a fair number of games to power conference teams, yes. How is that any different than BYU?

    MWC teams already get exposure.

    The MWC does not need BYU, BYU needs them.

  • AFCoug Colorado Springs, CO
    May 25, 2014 10:10 p.m.

    ekute. ND is and has always been in. They would not think to exclude them and besides ND has a scheduling agreement with the ACC and is part of them in all other sports than football. It's not being afraid of them on the football field, although BYU has proven they can hang with all but the elite of any conference. It is afraid of having to share the money they hoard at the top levels of CFB. As I have always said, level the playing field (money) and you'll see much more competitive teams emerge from what is currently considered 2nd tier programs.

    Only 3 years ago all of Ute nation understood and fought this battle. Now suddenly they have short term memory loss and are so much better than they used to be? True Ute fans should remember how they felt being shut out, twice. They should still be enraged about CFB and the monopoly that it is. Instead so many have now decided they are better than the schools they continue to lose to simply because now, they make the big bucks. Oligarchy is the best word for CFB anymore.

  • Crow Sandy , UT
    May 25, 2014 10:07 p.m.

    I think you missed it wide right. First off look at the record byu has against the ACC and SEC less then 35%. So why play a team that is on par with the MWC. You can say they are scared but who is scared to play byu the ACC and SEC did not say that their teams could not play byu. Just that the game would not count as a big 5 game. Ask Virginia they know they can schedule byu for a easy win. Of the big 5 teams byu played last year how many did they beat not that many. So again why play them?

  • Kralon HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA
    May 25, 2014 9:53 p.m.

    It is likely that this is part of why they chose to not count BYU as a Big 5 team, but I think those making the decision had multiple reasons, not just this one.

    Clearly BYU is historically and currently better than many of the worst teams in the Big 5.

  • truth in all its forms henderson, NV
    May 25, 2014 9:52 p.m.

    If BYU were to run the table they would go to the playoffs... That is not going to happen. They might be able to run the table when they schedule all FCS schools like weber.

  • Jimmy James Salt Lake City, Ut
    May 25, 2014 9:02 p.m.

    I disagree. BYU is in the tough position of being good enough to beat some of the best teams in the nation when they're firing on all cylinders, but bad enough that they will still lose too many games against good opponents so that they never reach that "elite" status. Hence, it's a lose - lose game for any top program that plays them. If a top program beats BYU, that was what was supposed to happen. If they lose, it's a massive upset. Even if the SEC and ACC officially listed BYU as a "power opponent", it wouldn't change the reality of the perception that top teams should always beat BYU. Thus, I actually think excluding them was more of a ploy to discourage SEC / ACC teams from playing BYU. Big conference teams have nothing to gain from playing BYU, and those conference officials know it.

  • lanius Woods Cross, UT
    May 25, 2014 8:37 p.m.

    Sounds about right. I'm sure that is what they were thinking.

  • SUNNY ALL DAY Saint George, UT
    May 25, 2014 8:29 p.m.

    "...the two conferences are afraid of the Cougars in some small way and don't want to share their piece of the pie with them.
    Afraid of the Cougars?
    No. Not even in some small way.
    Follow the money.
    Don't want to share their piece of the pie with them?
    One of BYU's stumbling blocks to an offer is the fact they won't relinquish a piece of their pie.
    "...The big boys didn't want to share their spoils with the so-called little guys of college football...".
    Not any more than BYU doesn't want to share their negotiated spoils with anyone else in college football.
    If BYU won't share their negotiated spoils with anyone in college football, why should anyone in college football want to share their negotiated spoils with BYU?

  • Henry Drummond San Jose, CA
    May 25, 2014 8:26 p.m.

    I don't think this is about a vast Power Five conspiracy. The P5 is a club and you're not a member so you're going to be awkward situation for scheduling. The P5 wants nine "real" games against fellow powerhouse schools, and only three against pushovers. So where does that leave BYU? You're too good to be considered a pushover, but not good enough to be considered a powerhouse school.

    By 2017, the P5 is going to avoid scheduling you.

    Solution: Get in one of the P5 conferences. No, you won't have to play on Sunday, that can be fixed. Television rights can't however. That's the problem BYU faces.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    May 25, 2014 7:51 p.m.

    So they're afraid of byu...but not ND. lol.

  • Rockyrd Gilbert, AZ
    May 25, 2014 7:47 p.m.

    I think you nailed it!