Another document indicating the "Demands of a Dating Diva." We must
begin to recognise that the dative paradigm is not the be all end all of
I have four daughters and have a list of rules for boys that have wanted to date
them. Here are two of them;1. If you are in the driveway honking,
you better be delivering a pizza because my daughter will never be picked up
that way for a date.2. If you have trouble keeping your jeans
pulled up all the way, I can help with that problem. I have two power staplers
I am happy to use to prevent the sagging pant problem.
The best method of creating a lousy relationship? Begin dating with a list of
It is rules like this that create what we call the dating game. It creates an
atmosphere of princesses looking for the perfect man. I want my daughters to
look a lot more for a man who is a good quality person, not just a butler or a
prince. Let's face it, a knight in shining armor might open all your doors
and kiss the lady's hand, but men wearing plates of metal went out of vogue
and practicality some 500 years ago.
My mother taught me a similar set of dating etiquette rules, and they have
served me well. My wife and I have been married 40 years, and I work hard to
still apply them in our relationship. Being married to a princess is a
wonderful thing if she treats you like a prince.
I find many of the author's viewpoints to be outdated for the generation of
girls her boys will eventually date. I also believe some of her instructions
are confusing and even paradoxical. If she were my mother when I was dating I
would have eventually tuned her out and just winged it, which isn't so good
for a young man to conclude he has to do. Bottom line, I recommend dialing it
down a couple of notches if you don't want these 17 rules to backfire on
I think this is a well-intended article and it says good things that young men
should do but the vibe I get from the article is really one-sided and
unsettling. It wreaks of "okay boys, here everything you are responsible to
do, and oh by the way, good luck, it's all you!" I was raised and
taught to do all of these things, and I've done a lot of them with a smile
on my face, but I've had jack success in dating. While I still agree it is
important to treat women with respect and to be a gentleman, I think young men,
(particularly in this LDS market) feel overwhelmed with everything
"required" of us when it comes to dating. Besides which, in this new
generation of feminism, women aren't exactly making it easier for us, nor
are they doing a whole lot to encourage us, to fulfill our roles as men. As an
older single person, I know this doesn't do a whole lot to encourage me,
but it rather reminds me of everywhere I fall short, and I doubt I'm the
only one who feels that way.
Nice sexist article so in return what you propose for daughters. Never ever
leave the kitchen.
I think these are excellent ideals to teach sons. And for the naysayers who say
these ideals are too high in this day and age: It is better to aim for the stars
and miss by a mile than to aim for a pile of manure and hit it dead center. By
teaching sons the proper way to treat a lady they are more likely to find those
daughters who have been raised to act like a lady. Don't forget to teach
them to take their dates on occasional outings where they must experience
getting dirty though... camping, hiking, fishing, or even volunteering to help
build with an organization like Habitat for Humanity, etc. Those kind of
activities will really weed out the princesses.
The negative comments about this excellent article are clearly symtomatic of the
selfish, cynical attitude in our society that has replaced kindness and good
manners in relationships between men and women. I do agree, however, that the
suggestions, if possible, should be adapted and followed by young women as well
as young men. To you readers taking issue with the author's points, is the
list of dating suggestions "old fashioned," inapplicable to our
"advanced" society, not "hip" enough for you, or even laughable?
They couldn't possibly appeal to those of the "me" generation, many
of whom forget that "love" is a verb, not a feeling, and is exhibited
through caring service and courteous behavior to one's partner. Perhaps
lack of adherence to the author's suggestions, both during courtship and
during marriage, will be a major contributing factor if one's relationships
Hey Team Watkins,An additional amendment to rule # 6:No
prolong kissing in a parked car and the violation of this rule will result in
seeing your Mom's camouflaged face with a bandanna on her head staring you
down through the driver's window........LOL!
Many of these rules are sexist and are a terrible preparation for marriage.
Opening a car door for someone who is perfectly capable of opening it herself
does not show respect. This sort of relationship morphs into one where a
husband who opens car doors but wouldn't even dream of cleaning a toilet,
wiping up mess, getting up to calm and diaper a howling baby before he brings it
to his wife to nurse, or learning to cook so he can have dinner ready when she
comes home from work.
Excellent suggestions. Thanks for a great article.
@Mayhem Mike, caring service and courteous behavior to one's partner is
shown when they split the cost of dates 50-50, or whatever is reasonable given
the relative incomes of each person. Caring service and courteous behavior
toward one’s parents is shown when you pay for your own wedding instead of
treating the bride’s parents as cash cows to put on a show when the
Princess gets married. Caring service and courteous behavior to one's
guests is shown when you don’t play Bridezilla and put on half dozen
parties prior to the wedding and expect people to bring gifts to each. +One of my sons married a girl with the surname of Russell. She was the
last of the Russells and didn’t want to change her name. Neither of them
liked hyphened names. So he changed his surname to Russell.As far
as evidence of “caring service and courteous behavior to one's
partner”, I’ll take that over a thousand door-openings.
Your assuming your son(s) will want to date girls. Your teaching him that dating
girls is the only option, which is not the case. This assumption puts a huge
amount of pressure on your boys and really in a way teaches discrimination. What
if your son is gay and is attracted to males. Consider teaching your son(s) to
date whomever they are attracted to, not "it has to be a girl" and let
them know you will love whomever they date. The same rules can apply from your
unrealistic list of expectations, but you won't be sending a hateful
message to your son who may not want to date girls. Think about!
Really people? Enjoyed the article. Then started seeing the disparaging
comments. Did I miss something? Went back and re-read these 17 tips and found
absolutely no shred of bad advice, anything remotely dated or chauvinistic or
sexist or condescending... absolute, solid advice that if anything, isn't
As a mother of 3 boys, I thought this article was spot on. So as I came to the
conclusion and read the first few comments I was shocked it was viewed
negatively! These are all things I expect my sons to be doing/do when they date.
I taught them to open doors for strangers too! (GASP!) I'm not sure why
everyone keeps bringing up the word outdated. When did being polite and treating
women with respect go out of style??
Jenjen4, You are confusing courtesy and respect. Courtesy and care is shown
when you open a door for someone burdened with packages or children. Opening
car doors for able-bodied people of either gender is not respect. The idea
that women are delicate flowers who will wilt if they are not waited on --but
who, as wives are expected to provide for your every need---is as outdated as
the notion that women should only work as secretaries, nurses or teachers.True respect is shown when you treat all people--women included--as
equals. If you want your sons to succeed in the workforce, they need to learn
that.There is no reason that each dating party can pay for their own
dates via their own money (or their allowances, if that’s their source of
money). Telling your sons that you will provide money so that they can pay for
the full cost of their dates does not show respect for the dates nor your sons.
Making an automatic “the guy pays” rule sets women up for a
“he paid for it, so I have to do whatever he wants” rationale.
@ Laura BillingtonWomen are to be treated with respect at all times.
This includes opening doors for them. If there is a woman standing in a room,
and there is not enough chairs for them to sit down, a true man would
immediately stand up to give then a place to sit. A true man, like myself, shows
respect and concern for women and girls at all times.
The interesting thing about many of the comments here is that the Pro comments
seem to come mainly from people who are well past the dating age. As someone who
is single, believe me when I say that dating is different than when you got
married. It has drastically morphed in even the last decade. Accept this. I
treat girls with courtesy and respect. My mother taught me this. And she
despises the suit of armor chivalry. If you believe in that for your marriage
and make it work, great. But understand that the culture has changed. I know
that this encroaches on the little red school house "good ol' days"
dating at the local dance hall paradigm, but we need to allow the natural social
progress to occur. I have found that I can both treat girls with utmost respect
and also allow them to open their own door. And girls of my single culture hav
I'm great and large part embraced this concept. Some of the comments here
reflect the complete myopia toward the modern singles culture. The movement is
toward a more equal yoking of the husband and wife.
Cougar Claws. You stay strong my man. I have heaps of respect for people like
you. We need to address real change in the dating world I think. A
new culture must be forged. Respect for women and their difficult roles. Respect
for men and their difficult roles. Both believing and working together for the
I think this a great list. Similar to point 2, single people just need to date
more--less pressure and more interactions. My father was going to skip asking to
just ONE high school dance and his father (a HS coach there) told him,
"I'm not going to let you be one of these guys who doesn't ask or
go to dances; you ask someone or I will for you." While some of
the 17 practices may seem outdated, that doesn't mean they are less
valuable than they once were. Too often we've abandoned good traditions and
practices out of simple laziness, convenience or selfishness.
I couldn't help wondering, how does not asking a girl out by text message
improve the kind of girl you will eventually marry? I think some of these rules
are just made up by someone who likes the idea of living by a lot of rules.
I have heard many of these rules taught by apostles of the Lord as they have
shared their own experiences or directly said what single people in the Church
should or shouldn't do while dating. For example, just a week ago Elder
Ballard was speaking in the Mt. Vernon, Virginia Stake and told the men not to
ask for a date by texting. Given enough time, I am sure I could find a quote
from one apostle or another to support every one of these rules. I think it is
telling that some who wish to change the Church to fit the image of the world
are critical of these dating rules. Personally, in my dating efforts, I choose
to give strict heed to the council of the Lord's apostles, not those who
want to criticize them and what they have taught.
to cbj: Not texting for a date has nothing to do with the kind of woman you end
up marrying, it is about the kind of man you are. Women have told me that they
do not appreciate it as much as a phone call or in person, where they can
actually have a conversation. Texting shows laziness, and fear. Women hate fear.
They say "no" to fear. Talking to her shows you have confidence. And
women want a man to be confident.
Overall this seems like some pretty good advice. There is always the
possibility that one of your sons will be gay. Now is the time to begin making
sure that if one of your sons is gay, he will know he is loved regardless; and
if he chooses to date another guy, he should also be told that it is okay too
and these same rules apply.
To Ranch: Since most of the audience here is LDS, saying it is ok to have same
sex relationships won't fly here. I am a devote Mormon, and I can say that
I am an alcoholic. Often I come home and think to myself, "I'd like a
beer". But I have never had a beer. The world tells me I should give in to
the temptations that I constantly have, that is the way God made me so I should
embrace it. But the Lord's way is to cast off the natural man, resist the
temptations that I have which are contrary to God's commandments. Same sex
attraction is a powerful temptation for those who have it, and we should help
those with it to resist the temptation in a loving manner. Teaching that giving
in to the temptation is wrong is not hatred (like JD in Vegas said), it is our
duty as part of the covenants we make with God.
JD:Your point is taken, but you put too fine a point on it. I'm
not wild about this list (it's a little obvious and aggressively
"traditional" for my taste), but there's nothing "hateful"
about the intentions behind it. Applying the term "hate" here is to make
unfounded assumptions. Most parents' vision for their kids
includes them marrying someone of the opposite sex, which will end up being
correct for the vast majority. The ones whose kids turn out to be gay will
adjust, some better than others. It sounds like you're espousing the need
to counch every conversation with kids about dating, romance, and future plans
in gender neutral-language for fear of traumatizing them. There's a line
where "sensitivity" crosses the line into "policitally correct
balderdash," and you're approaching it.
mancan:Trying to label this little list as divine revleation is more
than a little silly. Some items here are more important than others, and much of
it seems to be focused on the undeniable virtues of unselfishness and respect. I
can get behind that, even though some of the specifics aren't nearly as
important as the author makes them out to me. I doubt any Church authority has
ever had a direct revelation about honking in a driveway.In
particular, the texting prohibition betrays a mind that hasn't accepted how
today's teens communicate. Yes, face-to-face is probably preferable in most
situations, and a phone call isn't going to hurt, but very few girls would
be offended by being asked out via text. It's situation-dependent, of
course, but just because a 50-year-old mom would find it rude doesn't mean
her 17-year-old will. Overall, if you think many teenagers or even
single adults, LDS or not, are going to seriously look to an octegenarian for
specific dating advice (beyond the obvious stuff), you're in fantasy land.
@Laura Bilington How is opening a door for an able bodied person not respect?
I was taught to hold the door for women (my sister, a girl, taught me that one)
and for the elderly. Many elderly people can manage the door themselves, but I
feel that I am showing respect to my elders when I hold the door for them. We
have turned into a society where politeness, table manners and common courtesies
no longer exist. I think that is sad. A message to young men
reading this article. Some of these things may seem antiquated or out of
fashion. But I challenge you to try them on your next date. I bet you will not
only separate yourself from the other guys but impress her parents as well.
Wow some people get bent out of shape over something like opening doors and miss
the bigger point. I like that this is encouraging making dating
"out of the ordinary". Going on a date should be more than just hanging
out, and it's good to have a plan. Exclusive dating should
include faithfulness, including in communicating when it's time to head for
the exit.While you may not agree with everything on her list,
it's a good discussion point for parents and kids to set some positive
expectations. Nicely done.
Laura Bilington: Their are US Marines who spend a tour of duty at the White
House standing ram-rod straight waiting to open the door every time the
President comes or goes. Every President except FDR has been perfectly capable
of opening that door himself, and opening a door is far below the capabilities
of a Marine. But it is done as a sign of respect. Maybe it is a tradition that
we should stop if Hillary Clinton is ever elected. We wouldn't want to send
a sexist message to the world would we?
I get the modern day Princess concerns, but this article is a mom's list
for her boys, not a list for boys who want to date her girls. The care that a
young man puts into his dating is indicative of him and helps define his
character, regardless of the girl's reaction.From the
perspective of a father of daughters, I support another post on here. Regardless
of what my girls think...there is a 50/50 chance that I'll see your text if
you text ask my daughter on a date. The answer will be no. If you honk, the
only one coming out of the door will be me. If you show up at my door with your
pants below your hips, there is a shotgun waiting just inside the door.
@mancanYou're right! Rather than loving and accepting someone
for who they are we should absolutely try and change them. Try and push our
views on them. And...trying to compare beer with something as personal and
emotional as same gender attraction is what doesn't fly. It was a good
effort though. Point being: If my son were gay and he chose to
pursue such a lifestyle I am gonig to treat him no different. I'm sure
it's hard enough without the added parental disappointment. I know way too
many people who have lost friends or family to suicide due to the crushing
pressure from the religious community. Your church teaches, above all, to be
Christ-like. And...that means loving unconditionally.
From my experience number 9 is particularly important. Don't try to
seriously date two or more people at once. Most likely it will result in
complications and problems that will ruin all of the relationships.
Wow, there is a lot of bitterness out there. These rules are great, and would
not only serve a young man dating, but will serve an old married man too. Here
are my thoughts on them:1. Face to face communication shows you
care.2. You will spend pleanty of time at home, get out while it is
easy.3. Opening doors shows respect.4. If your man
can't pay for a date, then what do you expect from marriage?5.
When you return a lawn mower you walk it to the door, why not your date?6. Kissing every girl will get boring, only save it for the good
ones.7. Who wants to date somebody that doesn't listen?8. Honesty, what a concept.9. Be faithful.10.
Women of all ages love kind and gentle touching that shows you care.11. Since when is being considerate a bad thing?12. You don't
just marry a person, you join their family and friends.13. Who
doesn't like to be complemented?14. Server her, that may
include cleaning the whole house.15. Small supprises are fun.16. Who doesn't like hand written notes?17. What
quality guy wouldn't get married?