Comments about ‘Utah Sports Ruckus: For BYU it's about time to raise political havoc’

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Published: Thursday, May 22 2014 3:15 p.m. MDT

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Richfield, UT

@ AntelopeValleyUte:

You said Utah could help BYU in the regard of how to go undefeated and play in BCS bowl games. Seriously? You somehow think that BYU should get advice from a school that hasn't even qualified for any bowl whatsoever for the past 3 years and running? A school which hasn't had a winning record in years and who has beat a grand total of one game against any fellow conference teams with a winning record?

Utah would be one of the last places any school should currently go to for football success advice.

@ gdog3finally:

You infer and includes comments about BYU always having "an easy schedule" as an argument against BYU inclusion. And yet you conveniently forget that just last season BYU had a tougher and higher ranked schedule than Utah had had in it's entire history prior to last season. It was one of the top-10 part way through the season, but dropped to someplace within the top-25 by the time Utah and other P5 schools they played earlier lost additional games.

So hilarious and telling that more Ute fans commented on this all-BYU article than BYU fans.

Germany, 00

This one paragraph from the article sums it all. Someone go ahead and dispute this paragraph, I want to see it...

"It seems reasonable to assert that whether Mormons are discriminated against generally in the United States or not, the fact that BYU is being excluded from the top tier of college athletics, when it is so obviously belongs in the top tier based on its merits, is at least in some ways a demonstration of discrimination or inequality — whether by definition or by effect."

Logan, UT

@ SoonerUte and xert:

On the outset, your suggestion to settle for "2 for 1" games against the big-boys sounds almost reasonable. But to do that with a full schedule of such games (as you suggested) is not feasible. That would mean BYU would have to play twice as many games on the road as at home. BYU fans and season ticket holders would never settle for that... to play only 4 home games a season while playing 8 games on the road. Not reasonable whatsoever.

Everyone knows how much tougher it is to win on the road than at home. That's the entire reason the big-boys you are referring to want the 2 for 1 to begin with. They are asking for and demanding an advantage. What's wrong with wanting and expecting an equal playing field... especially if you and they think they are so much better to begin with?

Please tell me of one other notable program in the nation that settles for playing twice as many games on the road as at home. Name just a single one. The fact that you can't means your suggestion isn't doable, feasible or even reasonable.

Two For Flinching
Salt Lake City, UT

@ Brio

I disagree. I think the medical school and research Utah conducts was a huge factor when the PAC was looking to expand. Observation tells me that I'm right. Academic standing is a part of a conference brand, the Ivy League is the most extreme example.

The average research budget for PAC-12 schools in $450 million per year. In 2009 Utah's research budget climbed to $355 million per year, and has since risen. BYU has some fine undergraduate programs, and is a good school. But BYU doesn't command money like that when it comes to research, and as a result, it would have done nothing to further the PAC-12's reputation in the world of academia. I've said it a hundred times, and I'll say it again. BYU not being invited in to the PAC is not about religious bigotry. It's about how Utah was/is a better fit.

Christine B. Hedgefog
Salt Lake City, UT

The key phrase in the article is "Can anyone rationally argue"

Key word "rationally".

That leaves several of those commenting (see first two comments) out of the argument.

Layton, UT

Christine B. Hedgefog
Rational byu fans know that winning the big games is the answer. byu hasn't done that. I doubt that raising political havoc is the exposure that the church and byu are looking for.

My espn comment is out of context. It was a follow up to a comment that was posted and then removed.

Salt Lake City, UT

Christine B. Hedgefog
Salt Lake City, UT

"The key phrase in the article is "Can anyone rationally argue"

Key word "rationally"."

What does that mean, Christine? Can anyone argue with the opinion of a sports writer? Are you serious?

Do you know what this comes down to? Jealousy. Plain and simple.

Three fundamental questions to coug fans...

1. Are you happy with independence...why?
2. Has independence delivered everything you were promised...what's missing?
3. Who is to blame for the situation byu is in?

Logan, UT

@ Two For Flinching:

You can say something a hundred times or even a thousand times, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. You offer no evidence to support your contention. None. Give me one verifiable quote from an authorized PAC12 representative to support your statement. If you've said it a hundred times, as you stated, there must be many verifiable quotes out there on the subject.

The only thing you're stating is opinion and nothing else.

In academia circles and studies, BYU has had overall higher rankings than Utah and at least several of the current PAC12 members. When you are looking for the requested verifiable statement requested above, you will undoubtedly find several studies that support and display BYU's higher ranking relative to other PAC schools.

Utah might be a better PAC12 fit, but it isn't due to academia standards. While on the subject, please name some verifiable ways Utah has raised (or even maintained) the PAC12 high standard and reputation regarding research since joining the conference several years ago, especially in ways besting BYU. It's time to back your assertions... or else find another angle to support your Ute related bias.

Flip McFetch
Las Vegas, NV

As a state school, U. of Utah has far fewer barriers to gov't $ than does BYU. How much research $ is endowed privately vs. publicly for each school?

Central, UT

Yippee! Another voice for 'Let me in or I will sue'! Nobody cares.

Two For Flinching
Salt Lake City, UT

@ Copacetic

Here's a pretty good quote: "If not for the U's performance in the classrooms and laboratories, this partnership would not have formed. I know from my years at the helm of the California system of higher education that Pac-10 schools place a great deal of emphasis on broad-based academic excellence, just as Utah does. The invitation extended to the (University of Utah) to join the Pac-10 is the most recent evidence of...a tangible expression of regard by other distinguished universities of the successes and accomplishments of the state's flagship public university. The U's Pac-10 affiliation is based on more than athletic prowess; it is also an affirmation by the Pac-10 universities of the University of Utah's standing as a leading American university, also a condition for Pac-10 membership and without which judgment the invitation would never have been extended." —David P. Gardner, president emeritus of both the University of Utah and the University of California educational system

Y Grad / Y Dad
Richland, WA

At this point in the discussion, a few people are still screaming and mostly nobody is litening to anybody else, but here's my two cents:

If we could win one or two more big games a year, I don't think they could keep us out. Shoot, if we would quit losing the one or two games a year that we shouldn't lose to, they couldn't keep us out.

We WILL still be able to schedule big games. They may be 2 for 1, they may all be in August or September or a decent bowl game, but we have to take advantage of every opportunity.

Still, it is a delicious thought, to show all the high falootin' research institutions that they shouldn't mess with the school that has a top-ranked law school.

Logan, UT

@ SoonerUte:

You stated, "If BYU wants a seat at the big boy table, they need to earn it."

That is so very funny coming the school of a big-boy conference that is hardly sitting at their conference table. Based on results since joining the PAC12, Utah is barely subsisting on the table scraps falling from that big-boy table... and not much else.

Every single season since falling into their PAC12 invite, Utah has ended up fighting tooth and nail with Colorado to stay out of the complete basement bottom of the conference. Last season Utah finally beat their first game against a conference foe with a winning record. And that's after 3 years of trying. A grand total of a single such victory. That hardly comes across as sitting at the table with the big boys.

As some Ute fans are so fond of saying... you have earn that distinction. Kudos to Utah for still trying, even if those efforts have mostly been in vain. But nothing sustainable has happened yet worth bragging about, as the Ute merry-go-round of new football coaches continues after each and every season.

Two For Flinching
Salt Lake City, UT

@ Copacetic

I believe I offered a lot of evidence for why Utah was chosen to join the PAC-12; about 355 million pieces of evidence in fact.

As for the rankings, they all use different criteria. However, the academic ranking for world universities (ARWU) has Utah in the top 100 schools in the world. Well ahead of BYU. Anyway this isn't really the point. BYU's higher ranking means nothing to PAC-12 schools because they don't have the research and advanced degrees that should go along with quality education. Good undergrad programs are a dime a dozen.

Utah has maintained the PAC's academic profile by bringing in a huge amount of cancer research, and well as medical and optical technology. It's also laughable that you are asserting that BYU might have out done Utah's research in some way. Utah is working on curing cancer. The last BYU study I heard about was how to eliminate urinal splash-back. There isn't even a debate here.

Logan, UT

@ NightOwlAmerica:

You've made all kinds of assertions that BYU was not invited to the PAC12 solely because of academics and research. Yet you've offered absolutely no emperical or verfifiable evidence to support that as true. Absolutely none whatsoever. And until you do, the religious discrimination card is justifiably still on the table.

You even stated that Baylor, a religious school was not invited to join the PAC10 (at that time) when Texas and Oklahoma wanted them to come along as a package deal. And since you once again failed to offer any prove to the contrary, it very much seems that there was some religious discrimination in that case as well.

Make personal assertions all day long. But verifiable evidence is what others pay attention to. You've offered none.

Two For Flinching
Salt Lake City, UT

@ Copacetic

Here is the official PAC-12 press release:

"With more than 120 Nobel Laureates across all of its campuses and the first ever to reach 400 NCAA Championships, the Conference is synonymous with both academic excellence and athletic success, having earned the nickname the “Conference of Champions”.

Colorado and Utah fit perfectly into this tradition, bringing nationally recognized research programs and a record of athletic excellence that includes 42 NCAA titles."

Flip McFetch
Las Vegas, NV

For the hx. revionists that still exist:

1984 AP final football poll
1) BYU 13-0
2) UW 11-1 (did not win PAC 10 & lost to BYU 35-3 Sept. '85)
3) UF 9-1-1 (on probation)
4) Nebr. 10-2
5) BC 10-2

1984 UPI (Coaches) final football poll
Same but UF omitted due to probation.

Murray, UT

BYU will never be invited to the PAC 12 but not because of religious affiliation. Everyone of or almost everyone of the PAC 12 schools has had a Mormon president and an active Mormon at that. Even very liberal Colorado had Gordon Gee. Washington currently has Michael Young. The whole California higher ed system which includes Cal and UCLA was led for many years by David Gardner, a BYU grad and former U president. Arizona State had G. Homer Durham who later became as LDS general authority. I could go on and on. The point is that PAC 12 schools through their hiring practices for top positions and their politics are not anti Mormon. I believe the main reason BYU did not get an invite and will not get an invite and I have stated this before, is that the league already has two private universities, Stanford and USC, with all the attendant well heeled alumni and financial resources that private schools can command and the rest of the public universities did not and do not want to contend with a third private school.

Logan, UT

@ Two For Flinching:

You've so far offered only quotes of opinion with nothing concrete or of evidence to back any of your previous assertions. To boot, one of your main quotes was from a guy who was the president of the Utes at the time they were getting their invite. Do you think there's any possibility of any bias... considering the source?

Even then, he simply offered personal opinion and no numerical or verifiable evidence to back his biased opinion. And neither have you. A press release from the PAC12 about them having a nice nickname means and proves absolutely nothing concerning their criteria in choosing Utah and not BYU to join their conference.

Do you think they're going to come out and say it's because of their own secular attitude and BYU's incongruent religious attitude that they weren't invited? Of course not! All liberal institutions play by the premise that they are tolerantly open to diversity, while very few actually prove it. Actions speak louder than words. And so far your words and weak quotes have proven absolutely nothing. There has been no verifiable evidence given in support of your assertions.

Flip McFetch
Las Vegas, NV

"Good undergrad programs are a dime a dozen." Better undergrad programs place better in grad/doctoral programs. ARWU is based in Shanghai. Show me a reputable US-based college ranking system that ranks U. of Utah ahead of BYU. Which school has higher entering GPAs, SAT & ACT scores? Which school produces more doctoral/masters degrees from its graduates?

Hence, the old joke:
Q. What do BYU & U. of Utah students all have in common?
A. They all applied to BYU...

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