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Utah Sports Ruckus: For BYU it's about time to raise political havoc

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  • Dan Maloy Enid, OK
    May 29, 2014 2:19 p.m.

    @ Uteology - East Salt Lake City, Utah - "@Dan Maloy So, you're trying to tell us that there is absolutely zero discrimination against non-LDS motivating at least some of these posters here? None? Not even a little? And yes you are the poster child of why BYU is disliked so much. And it's not just by Ute fans, see SDSU, Wyoming..."

    Uteology -

    Someday, you and I shall meet.

    At that day I will gladly accept your apology.

  • Carson Provo, UT
    May 27, 2014 6:50 p.m.

    I just can't wait to hear the Ducks & Sammy's spin on all of this. This news must be driving them and many other fans nuts!

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 27, 2014 3:25 p.m.

    @Dan Maloy

    So, you're trying to tell us that there is absolutely zero discrimination against non-LDS motivating at least some of these posters here? None? Not even a little?

    And yes you are the poster child of why BYU is disliked so much. And it's not just by Ute fans, see SDSU, Wyoming...

  • Dan Maloy Enid, OK
    May 27, 2014 12:31 p.m.

    @ truthsandwich - RANDOLPH, UT "@ Dan Nope. It's BYU fans like you bringing it on yourselves with comments like the one you just posted."

    So, you're trying to tell me that there is absolutely zero religious discrimination against the LDS church motivating at least some of these posters here? None? Not even a little?

    Riiiiiight.....

    I made my stand and I reiterate it for you: "most" of the anti-BYU comments here and every comments board (seen the 'other' Salt Lake newspaper online boards?) are motivated by anti-LDS feelings. Such anti-BYU comments may not start out that way, but they often devolve into that motivation.

  • truthsandwich RANDOLPH, UT
    May 27, 2014 11:01 a.m.

    @ Dan

    Nope. It's BYU fans like you bringing it on yourselves with comments like the one you just posted.

  • Dan Maloy Enid, OK
    May 26, 2014 11:45 p.m.

    Wow.

    Tons of anti-BYU comments on here.

    I'd wager a large pot of money that most of them are rooted in anti-"LDS" bigotry.

    Someday, we're all gonna find out what "really" motivated these postings.

    Keep your chin up, Cougars. Be prepared to fight for what is right, but keep your chin up and stand tall.

  • A Guy With A Brain Enid, OK
    May 26, 2014 11:34 p.m.

    The BU article had a survey from (pre-election) 2012 in which 81% of the respondents said that Mitt Romney's religion caused them little or no concern.

    Interesting.

    Because on election day, November 2012, it sure didn't turn out that way. Exit polls showed time after time that "Christians" were missing from the polls in rather large numbers.

    Just sayin'...

  • Dan Maloy Enid, OK
    May 26, 2014 11:15 p.m.

    Very strong article. I mean, you simply can't overlook facts, and the article is absolutely crammed with them, especially when they are seen within the context (as the article points out) that the facts are based on more than just BYU's success in football.

    (Now, lest any Utah fan give BYU a hard time about our football program, they might just want to look at their own losing record for the last 3 years first.)

    So, like I said...you can't argue against facts.

    (Not that that will stop many Utah fans from trying....)

  • New to Utah PAYSON, UT
    May 26, 2014 10:21 p.m.

    This was a brilliantly written piece. I remember as a young man when BYU and the LDS church were attacked for not allowing Blacks to hold the priesthood and Stanford quit scheduling them.BYU faces discrimination because it is the flagship institution of the church.We have sank to a new low in civility with so much political correctness,Hollywood supporting immorality and weak politicians being run over by strident partisans. It is time to get a megaphone and make some rukus.

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    May 26, 2014 1:04 p.m.

    No power conference is going to accept a new team that tells them what days they will and won't plat on. Until BYU changes this stance they will be on the outside looking in or at the little boy table.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 24, 2014 3:10 p.m.

    3grandslams
    Iowa City, IA

    "First, I want to know what ute fans are afraid of? Their level of insecurity may never be healed. It seems their very happiness hinges on berating BYU."

    Nope. This doesn't have anything to do with Utah fans.

    "Seconds to deny that BYU doesn't belong is to ignore the blatant bigotry of the PAC 12, California and Standford specifically."

    Nope. The Pac-12 established clear criteria upon which the invitation was extended to Utah and Colorado. byu doesn't meet those standards. Whose fault is that?

    "we' are witnessing one of the greatest athletic discrimination acts in the history of the NCAA. For anyone to deny it and just say BYU is not good enough is gross incompetence or intelligence or truly bigotry."

    Nope. This is a bit over the top, don't you think?

    "The tradition of BYU is by far a national standard of excellence, the fan base is by far large enough to be considered elite and the championships, awards, trophies, records embarrass most other programs in America save only a few."

    Absent from your list...whinny fans who call people names when they don't get what they want.

  • 3grandslams Iowa City, IA
    May 24, 2014 11:19 a.m.

    First, I want to know what ute fans are afraid of? Their level of insecurity may never be healed. It seems their very happiness hinges on berating BYU.

    Seconds to deny that BYU doesn't belong is to ignore the blatant bigotry of the PAC 12, California and Standford specifically. But sad enough Utah is in the same company. We' are witnessing one of the greatest athletic discrimination acts in the history of the NCAA. For anyone to deny it and just say BYU is not good enough is gross incompetence or intelligence or truly bigotry.

    The tradition of BYU is by far a national standard of excellence, the fan base is by far large enough to be considered elite and the championships, awards, trophies, records embarrass most other programs in America save only a few.

    Believe in yourself cougarnation, don't listen to others filled with envy.

  • RickH Blaine, WA
    May 24, 2014 4:45 a.m.

    When Utah overwhelmingly supports the USA corporate goals of : Greed, Corruption, and Social Indifference, how can you argue that a sports team should be granted an exemption from the "game"?

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 10:52 p.m.

    Objectified
    Richfield, UT

    My comments are accusatory? byu fans, are all over this thread blaming everyone but themselves for their situation and my comments are accusatory?

    Let's look, shall we...

    You stated:
    "1) Sometimes...Not always easy to do because of some schools exclusive and elitist attitude... similar to yours."

    Descent? Objective? Verifiable backing?

    "2) No it hasn't, not yet...It still might be... depending on whether the elitist attitude of some of the "big-boys" prevails and they get their way."

    Descent? Objective? Verifiable backing?

    "3) I credit Tom Holmoe for taking the best option available at the time. This next season might open your eyes more."

    You credit Holmoe for all the games byu will win this year? Fair enough. Holmoe is responsible for the schedule. You realize, right, that the schedule is what the SEC and ACC pointed to when they declared byu a mid-major. Not the ACC/SEC fault.

    Now my turn...

    1. byu fans are calling others bigots, assert discrimination, etc. This isn't the fault of Utah, Pac-12, the SEC, or ACC. I'm here to make sure you understand that. Man up and accept responsibility.

    2. See #1 above.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    May 23, 2014 6:54 p.m.

    @SoonerUte\\Nice try.

    but basketball does not count. This P5 stuff really only applies to football. This is about the college football playoffs and access to bowls games. While they do play together in other sports those other sports are irrelevant to the conversation,

    This whole situation is about football and football only.

    We are talking strictly about football.

    So according to your research BYU does belong when it comes to football.

    And that what truly matters.

    The utes desire to exclude BUY seems to be about hate, and probably bigotry, and not about worthiness

  • gdog3finally West Jordan, Utah
    May 23, 2014 6:53 p.m.

    I won't deny religious bigotry sometimes effects BYU. It seems likely that some branches of the PAC 12 might be entrenched with prejudice towards BYU. But Sunday play is a huge issue. Be that as it is, it just is what it is as well. And it won't change rather some PAC 12 authorities want or don't want BYU in the conference. I say that because I think there are more important individuals and entities within the PAC 12 that would like to have BYU a member despite many BYU thinking the PAC 12 is out to get them all the time. Sure the education structure at BYU is way different than on the left coast, but Sunday play is the real factor in my mind. And that won't change for BYU or the PAC 12.

  • gdog3finally West Jordan, Utah
    May 23, 2014 6:43 p.m.

    Y Dad/Y Grad

    Yes I think you are probably right. Win those extra few games (some more winnable than others) and your Cougars won't be left out. This year should be the year to do it. A talented and more mature Tayson Hill and BYU's soft schedule leaves no room for excuses at not going unbeaten.

  • gdog3finally West Jordan, Utah
    May 23, 2014 6:40 p.m.

    @Concinnity

    Let me correct a few things. (1)It's been two years not three without a bowl game. Although I would rather the road be tougher than go bowling in the MWC or with BYU's schedule. And yes, BYU's schedule is not a challenging one. (2)Saying BYU had a tougher schedule than Utah last year is silly. Just because BYU played Texas, Wisconsin, and Notre Dame doesn't make the rest of the schedule null and void. And the rest of the schedule the last three years running (to use the vernacular here) has been awful.

    Utah went BCS bowling twice in the MWC, but I still pointed out that although they beat BCS teams, they still played a MWC schedule. Utah beat 4 BCS teams in 2004 (Fiesta Bowl year), Texas A&M, Arizona, North Carolina, and Pitt (decent wins). The rest of the schedule was weak (TCU joined the conference the next year). (3)If you are lumping me into a category that claims BYU not worthy for P5 inclusion then you are off base. Yes BYU belongs. Feel better?. That doesn't mean I won't call out other spades that may not sit well with you.

  • A1994 Centerville, UT
    May 23, 2014 5:08 p.m.

    @NightOwlAmerica

    Because football is all that matters and football is the subject at hand.

  • Objectified Richfield, UT
    May 23, 2014 3:38 p.m.

    @ MyPerspective:

    Your biased based judgments should've never been printed. They are accusatory, off-topic and disruptive. You make very negative accusations against BYU fans and once again offer absolutely no proof or verifiable backing.

    The context of your comments indicates it would be nearly impossible for a BYU fan to have a decent, objective discussion with you. Two For Flinching seems quite similar.

    The answers you requested:
    1) Sometimes. The ESPN affiliation and national tv exposure. The freedom to try to schedule whom you want is a double-edged sword. Not always easy to do because of some schools exclusive and elitist attitude... similar to yours.

    2) No it hasn't, not yet. But was the best alternative available at the time. It still might be... depending on whether the elitist attitude of some of the "big-boys" prevails and they get their way.

    3) I credit Tom Holmoe for taking the best option available at the time. This next season might open your eyes more.

    Your turn:
    1. Why do you and other ultra-Ute fans comment more on BYU articles than BYU fans do?
    2. What's with your anti-BYU obsession and rhetoric?

  • 81Ute Central, UT
    May 23, 2014 3:28 p.m.

    This article and the premise that it puts forward are exactly why I am not a BYU fan. In my experience, there has always been this attitude of superiority from the fan base. Even as a child I was repulsed by it and hence my moniker. Goodluck with your endeavors. Maybe you can consult with the gay rights movement on how to force your way into where you are not wanted.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    May 23, 2014 3:17 p.m.

    Copacetic,

    "To boot, one of your main quotes was from a guy who was the president of the Utes at the time they were getting their invite."

    That would be Michael Young now the current President at Washington. I did not see a quote used by Michael Young as you asserted.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 3:16 p.m.

    @ Brio

    I lose credibility? Because you copied and pasted a paragraph from BYU's CRC page. I wonder why you left this out? "The vision can only be effectively engendered in students by involving them directly in cancer research, which is the primary goal of the BYUCRC. Over 100 undergraduate and graduate students annually pursue various aspects of cancer research with members of the BYUCRC"

    Again, compare that to the Huntsman Cancer Institute which is designated by the National Cancer Institute, it is n't even close.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    May 23, 2014 3:14 p.m.

    mcdugall:

    There are no reports that the Y turned down an invitation to the Big 12. In order to do so, the Big 12 would have had to have invited them first, and there was no invitation. There was for TCU and WVU, but not for the no-BCS-bowl-busting cougs. They were too midmajorey.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 3:03 p.m.

    @ Copacetic

    You asked for "....one verifiable quote from an authorized PAC12 representative to support your statement."

    I gave you one from an active Mormon, who graduated from BYU and was president of Cal (kind of punches a hole in the bigotry argument), and from the official PAC-12 release when Utah and CU got invited. BOTH explicitly mentioned academics and research as a factor in the invitation process.

    I think the PAC came out and said exactly why they invited Utah. "Colorado and Utah fit perfectly into this tradition, bringing nationally recognized research programs and a record of athletic excellence that includes 42 NCAA titles." If you want to reject that and play the victim so be it; but your stance is at odds with the facts.

  • Brio Alpine, UT
    May 23, 2014 2:48 p.m.

    @ Two For Flinching:

    Your comment comparing Utah's and BYU's research is so ridiculously biased and out of context that it literally made me laugh and roll my eyes at the same time.

    Google "Cancer research at BYU" and you will find a lot of impressive material. Here is a quote I found in less than a minute:

    The Cancer Research Center at BYU is an organization composed of distinguished professors in the fields of Chemical Engineering; Chemistry and Biochemistry; Health Sciences; Integrative Biology; Microbiology and Molecular Biology; Nutrition, Dietetics and Food Science; Physiology and Developmental Biology; and Statistics.
    These professors are some of the best noted and productive researchers in their respective departments. Every year the CRC funds numerous cancer research fellowships, allowing students a chance to work with these prestigious researchers to study this disease. These professors and students are driven to make a significant contribution to the discovery of a cure for cancer.

    You obviously know so little about actual research going on at BYU that it is both laughable and sad. You've lost all comment credibility because of your bias in not being able to make any legitimate comparisons.

  • Flip McFetch Las Vegas, NV
    May 23, 2014 2:37 p.m.

    "Good undergrad programs are a dime a dozen." Better undergrad programs place better in grad/doctoral programs. ARWU is based in Shanghai. Show me a reputable US-based college ranking system that ranks U. of Utah ahead of BYU. Which school has higher entering GPAs, SAT & ACT scores? Which school produces more doctoral/masters degrees from its graduates?

    Hence, the old joke:
    Q. What do BYU & U. of Utah students all have in common?
    A. They all applied to BYU...

  • Copacetic Logan, UT
    May 23, 2014 2:32 p.m.

    @ Two For Flinching:

    You've so far offered only quotes of opinion with nothing concrete or of evidence to back any of your previous assertions. To boot, one of your main quotes was from a guy who was the president of the Utes at the time they were getting their invite. Do you think there's any possibility of any bias... considering the source?

    Even then, he simply offered personal opinion and no numerical or verifiable evidence to back his biased opinion. And neither have you. A press release from the PAC12 about them having a nice nickname means and proves absolutely nothing concerning their criteria in choosing Utah and not BYU to join their conference.

    Do you think they're going to come out and say it's because of their own secular attitude and BYU's incongruent religious attitude that they weren't invited? Of course not! All liberal institutions play by the premise that they are tolerantly open to diversity, while very few actually prove it. Actions speak louder than words. And so far your words and weak quotes have proven absolutely nothing. There has been no verifiable evidence given in support of your assertions.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    May 23, 2014 2:24 p.m.

    BYU will never be invited to the PAC 12 but not because of religious affiliation. Everyone of or almost everyone of the PAC 12 schools has had a Mormon president and an active Mormon at that. Even very liberal Colorado had Gordon Gee. Washington currently has Michael Young. The whole California higher ed system which includes Cal and UCLA was led for many years by David Gardner, a BYU grad and former U president. Arizona State had G. Homer Durham who later became as LDS general authority. I could go on and on. The point is that PAC 12 schools through their hiring practices for top positions and their politics are not anti Mormon. I believe the main reason BYU did not get an invite and will not get an invite and I have stated this before, is that the league already has two private universities, Stanford and USC, with all the attendant well heeled alumni and financial resources that private schools can command and the rest of the public universities did not and do not want to contend with a third private school.

  • Flip McFetch Las Vegas, NV
    May 23, 2014 2:12 p.m.

    For the hx. revionists that still exist:

    1984 AP final football poll
    1) BYU 13-0
    2) UW 11-1 (did not win PAC 10 & lost to BYU 35-3 Sept. '85)
    3) UF 9-1-1 (on probation)
    4) Nebr. 10-2
    5) BC 10-2

    1984 UPI (Coaches) final football poll
    Same but UF omitted due to probation.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 2:00 p.m.

    @ Copacetic

    Here is the official PAC-12 press release:

    "With more than 120 Nobel Laureates across all of its campuses and the first ever to reach 400 NCAA Championships, the Conference is synonymous with both academic excellence and athletic success, having earned the nickname the “Conference of Champions”.

    Colorado and Utah fit perfectly into this tradition, bringing nationally recognized research programs and a record of athletic excellence that includes 42 NCAA titles."

  • Copacetic Logan, UT
    May 23, 2014 1:58 p.m.

    @ NightOwlAmerica:

    You've made all kinds of assertions that BYU was not invited to the PAC12 solely because of academics and research. Yet you've offered absolutely no emperical or verfifiable evidence to support that as true. Absolutely none whatsoever. And until you do, the religious discrimination card is justifiably still on the table.

    You even stated that Baylor, a religious school was not invited to join the PAC10 (at that time) when Texas and Oklahoma wanted them to come along as a package deal. And since you once again failed to offer any prove to the contrary, it very much seems that there was some religious discrimination in that case as well.

    Make personal assertions all day long. But verifiable evidence is what others pay attention to. You've offered none.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 1:51 p.m.

    @ Copacetic

    I believe I offered a lot of evidence for why Utah was chosen to join the PAC-12; about 355 million pieces of evidence in fact.

    As for the rankings, they all use different criteria. However, the academic ranking for world universities (ARWU) has Utah in the top 100 schools in the world. Well ahead of BYU. Anyway this isn't really the point. BYU's higher ranking means nothing to PAC-12 schools because they don't have the research and advanced degrees that should go along with quality education. Good undergrad programs are a dime a dozen.

    Utah has maintained the PAC's academic profile by bringing in a huge amount of cancer research, and well as medical and optical technology. It's also laughable that you are asserting that BYU might have out done Utah's research in some way. Utah is working on curing cancer. The last BYU study I heard about was how to eliminate urinal splash-back. There isn't even a debate here.

  • Copacetic Logan, UT
    May 23, 2014 1:41 p.m.

    @ SoonerUte:

    You stated, "If BYU wants a seat at the big boy table, they need to earn it."

    That is so very funny coming the school of a big-boy conference that is hardly sitting at their conference table. Based on results since joining the PAC12, Utah is barely subsisting on the table scraps falling from that big-boy table... and not much else.

    Every single season since falling into their PAC12 invite, Utah has ended up fighting tooth and nail with Colorado to stay out of the complete basement bottom of the conference. Last season Utah finally beat their first game against a conference foe with a winning record. And that's after 3 years of trying. A grand total of a single such victory. That hardly comes across as sitting at the table with the big boys.

    As some Ute fans are so fond of saying... you have earn that distinction. Kudos to Utah for still trying, even if those efforts have mostly been in vain. But nothing sustainable has happened yet worth bragging about, as the Ute merry-go-round of new football coaches continues after each and every season.

  • Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WA
    May 23, 2014 1:36 p.m.

    At this point in the discussion, a few people are still screaming and mostly nobody is litening to anybody else, but here's my two cents:

    If we could win one or two more big games a year, I don't think they could keep us out. Shoot, if we would quit losing the one or two games a year that we shouldn't lose to, they couldn't keep us out.

    We WILL still be able to schedule big games. They may be 2 for 1, they may all be in August or September or a decent bowl game, but we have to take advantage of every opportunity.

    Still, it is a delicious thought, to show all the high falootin' research institutions that they shouldn't mess with the school that has a top-ranked law school.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 1:34 p.m.

    @ Copacetic

    Here's a pretty good quote: "If not for the U's performance in the classrooms and laboratories, this partnership would not have formed. I know from my years at the helm of the California system of higher education that Pac-10 schools place a great deal of emphasis on broad-based academic excellence, just as Utah does. The invitation extended to the (University of Utah) to join the Pac-10 is the most recent evidence of...a tangible expression of regard by other distinguished universities of the successes and accomplishments of the state's flagship public university. The U's Pac-10 affiliation is based on more than athletic prowess; it is also an affirmation by the Pac-10 universities of the University of Utah's standing as a leading American university, also a condition for Pac-10 membership and without which judgment the invitation would never have been extended." —David P. Gardner, president emeritus of both the University of Utah and the University of California educational system

  • 81Ute Central, UT
    May 23, 2014 1:30 p.m.

    Yippee! Another voice for 'Let me in or I will sue'! Nobody cares.

  • Flip McFetch Las Vegas, NV
    May 23, 2014 1:10 p.m.

    As a state school, U. of Utah has far fewer barriers to gov't $ than does BYU. How much research $ is endowed privately vs. publicly for each school?

  • Copacetic Logan, UT
    May 23, 2014 1:08 p.m.

    @ Two For Flinching:

    You can say something a hundred times or even a thousand times, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. You offer no evidence to support your contention. None. Give me one verifiable quote from an authorized PAC12 representative to support your statement. If you've said it a hundred times, as you stated, there must be many verifiable quotes out there on the subject.

    The only thing you're stating is opinion and nothing else.

    In academia circles and studies, BYU has had overall higher rankings than Utah and at least several of the current PAC12 members. When you are looking for the requested verifiable statement requested above, you will undoubtedly find several studies that support and display BYU's higher ranking relative to other PAC schools.

    Utah might be a better PAC12 fit, but it isn't due to academia standards. While on the subject, please name some verifiable ways Utah has raised (or even maintained) the PAC12 high standard and reputation regarding research since joining the conference several years ago, especially in ways besting BYU. It's time to back your assertions... or else find another angle to support your Ute related bias.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 1:08 p.m.

    Christine B. Hedgefog
    Salt Lake City, UT

    "The key phrase in the article is "Can anyone rationally argue"

    Key word "rationally"."

    What does that mean, Christine? Can anyone argue with the opinion of a sports writer? Are you serious?

    Do you know what this comes down to? Jealousy. Plain and simple.

    Three fundamental questions to coug fans...

    1. Are you happy with independence...why?
    2. Has independence delivered everything you were promised...what's missing?
    3. Who is to blame for the situation byu is in?

  • ekute Layton, UT
    May 23, 2014 12:43 p.m.

    Christine B. Hedgefog
    Rational byu fans know that winning the big games is the answer. byu hasn't done that. I doubt that raising political havoc is the exposure that the church and byu are looking for.

    My espn comment is out of context. It was a follow up to a comment that was posted and then removed.

  • Christine B. Hedgefog Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 11:54 a.m.

    The key phrase in the article is "Can anyone rationally argue"

    Key word "rationally".

    That leaves several of those commenting (see first two comments) out of the argument.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 11:50 a.m.

    @ Brio

    I disagree. I think the medical school and research Utah conducts was a huge factor when the PAC was looking to expand. Observation tells me that I'm right. Academic standing is a part of a conference brand, the Ivy League is the most extreme example.

    The average research budget for PAC-12 schools in $450 million per year. In 2009 Utah's research budget climbed to $355 million per year, and has since risen. BYU has some fine undergraduate programs, and is a good school. But BYU doesn't command money like that when it comes to research, and as a result, it would have done nothing to further the PAC-12's reputation in the world of academia. I've said it a hundred times, and I'll say it again. BYU not being invited in to the PAC is not about religious bigotry. It's about how Utah was/is a better fit.

  • Copacetic Logan, UT
    May 23, 2014 11:49 a.m.

    @ SoonerUte and xert:

    On the outset, your suggestion to settle for "2 for 1" games against the big-boys sounds almost reasonable. But to do that with a full schedule of such games (as you suggested) is not feasible. That would mean BYU would have to play twice as many games on the road as at home. BYU fans and season ticket holders would never settle for that... to play only 4 home games a season while playing 8 games on the road. Not reasonable whatsoever.

    Everyone knows how much tougher it is to win on the road than at home. That's the entire reason the big-boys you are referring to want the 2 for 1 to begin with. They are asking for and demanding an advantage. What's wrong with wanting and expecting an equal playing field... especially if you and they think they are so much better to begin with?

    Please tell me of one other notable program in the nation that settles for playing twice as many games on the road as at home. Name just a single one. The fact that you can't means your suggestion isn't doable, feasible or even reasonable.

  • DresdenBalla Germany, 00
    May 23, 2014 11:01 a.m.

    This one paragraph from the article sums it all. Someone go ahead and dispute this paragraph, I want to see it...

    "It seems reasonable to assert that whether Mormons are discriminated against generally in the United States or not, the fact that BYU is being excluded from the top tier of college athletics, when it is so obviously belongs in the top tier based on its merits, is at least in some ways a demonstration of discrimination or inequality — whether by definition or by effect."

  • Concinnity Richfield, UT
    May 23, 2014 11:00 a.m.

    @ AntelopeValleyUte:

    You said Utah could help BYU in the regard of how to go undefeated and play in BCS bowl games. Seriously? You somehow think that BYU should get advice from a school that hasn't even qualified for any bowl whatsoever for the past 3 years and running? A school which hasn't had a winning record in years and who has beat a grand total of one game against any fellow conference teams with a winning record?

    Utah would be one of the last places any school should currently go to for football success advice.

    @ gdog3finally:

    You infer and includes comments about BYU always having "an easy schedule" as an argument against BYU inclusion. And yet you conveniently forget that just last season BYU had a tougher and higher ranked schedule than Utah had had in it's entire history prior to last season. It was one of the top-10 part way through the season, but dropped to someplace within the top-25 by the time Utah and other P5 schools they played earlier lost additional games.

    So hilarious and telling that more Ute fans commented on this all-BYU article than BYU fans.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 10:50 a.m.

    Brio - BYU "AD has claimed in several past articles that scheduling the "big-boy" games is very difficult"

    I imagine it is difficult when trying to schedule a game as a 1-for-1 big-boy. Don't do that. Change the marketing. Sell BYU as the best mid-major. Accept 2 for 1's, or single games if you have to.

    The big-boys have to improve their strength of schedule primarily by eliminating FCS games. Last year, each P5 conference scheduled about 10 FCS games. That is FIFTY games BYU can compete for. Even if they only had 8 majors on the schedule, that would be something! Wouldn't you enjoy that as a fan?

    No doubt, BYU can beat a Texas or a Miami when its their only big game on the slate. You treat it like a bowl game. Those are trap games for the big-boys. Remaining to be seen is how BYU would do against a full slate. Chris Hill lobbied for 10 years to get a PAC spot. Maybe it takes 10 years for BYU to build independence. If that means adding staff to help Holmoe schedule, do it! Play the big-boy schedule. Prove you belong.

  • xert Santa Monica, CA
    May 23, 2014 10:42 a.m.

    I agree that BYU deserves better than being excluded as a mid major and rests somewhere outside of the Power 5 interest. Now I will tell you how to remedy that very unfortunate situation. When one of the Power 5 teams agrees to put you on their schedule (this will be tough--because the Y is too tough to be considered a gimme and not prestigious enough to count as a major opponent)---you have to go into their place and beat them. Just win. Win all of your games and make them notice you. This is how you earned your national championship (albeit disputed by most and against a weak Michigan squad in the Holiday Bowl) and this is how Utah and Boise State busted through the clutter of those giants and made them recognize them. Utah going to the Pac 12 was no accident. They are paying for their membership with bruises aplenty and the growing pains are intense. But they are there. BYU would have been truly better off staying in the MWC. Independence that has not proven to be BYU's ticket to Notre Dame status, has been a failure and let's face it. A Mess.

  • Henry Drummond San Jose, CA
    May 23, 2014 10:41 a.m.

    I don't think launching lawsuits or media campaigns is going to impress the Power Conferences. I think such actions will only reinforce the undoubtedly untrue negative stereotype that BYU has an inflated sense of its own importance and is too difficult to deal with.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 10:26 a.m.

    idaho cougar fan
    Twin Falls, ID

    "If was all about money and # of viewers, BYU wins out way over Utah and Colorado."

    Well, idaho cougar fan, if what you say is true, then clearly an invitation to the elite is not about money. Great logic, sport. Now, maybe you see why research is important.

    Look, when Holmoe started his independence experiment, byu fans were giddy with excitement. Now, all byu fans can focus on is how they are not part of the elite.

    What changed, idaho cougar fan? Are you saying that independence is a joke and that you really do want what Utah has? I'm anxious to hear your response. If membership in an elite conference is what byu wants, then Holmoe has mislead byu fans. Be careful how you answer that question, idaho cougar fan, because the Pac-12 is out of byu's reach.

  • Brio Alpine, UT
    May 23, 2014 10:21 a.m.

    @ Two For Flinching:

    The level of bias in your comments is borderline ridiculous. You think because utah has a medical program and BYU doesn't, that that makes an affiliation difference? Absurd. Do you realize how many P5 schools don't have medical programs?

    Besides that, BYU has other academic programs that far exceed the u. Their Accounting program and their entire School of Business Management programs are all nationally ranked well ahead of utahs and most P5 schools.

    BYU's AD has mentioned numerous times how difficult it is to get bigger-time programs to schedule BYU. Because BYU is not currently recognized as one of them (*the premise of this article), they figure they have more to lose than to gain by playing and possibly losing to BYU.

    If more P5 schools would agree to play BYU, much of this issue would go away. BYU would either sink or float. But they won't. Do some research on past DN articles where Tom Holmoe articulates and explains the difficulties of trying to schedule "big-boy" schools.

    Utah fans negative attitude and comments regarding anything BYU has become totally predictable and are taken with a grain of salt.

  • John S. Harvey Sandy, UT
    May 23, 2014 10:18 a.m.

    This is a silly article based on its premise: i.e., that screaming/whining BYU fans can be the force which tips the balance and lets BYU into a P5 conference (or gets the P5 conferences to consider BYU as an equal). BYU is not in a P5 conference because by-and-large the P5 schools don't want to associate with BYU. BYU's history with every conference its ever been a member of one of a prima donna that causes headaches for the other members. BYU is also perceived (rightly or wrongly doesn't matter) as very hypocritical.

    There are some dismal schools (performance wise) in the P5 conferences (because tradition), and there are some very successful schools (a lot more than just BYU) on the outside of the P5 looking in because there isn't "room" for them, or because the conference members simply don't like them. You can call that whatever you like but the fact remains that the only way to get into a conference is if the members of that conference vote to let you in - and right now no one wants to vote to let BYU in.

  • Mormon Ute Kaysville, UT
    May 23, 2014 10:00 a.m.

    311ute,

    You make a good point. The missionary effort is enhanced by the exposure of those teams and BYU being known as a religious school and then people asking questions about the Church. But I think that opportunity is diminishing these days.

    As a Mormon and college sports fan I see sports and religion increasingly going different directions. While it is still possible to be a sports fan and be religious, participating in sports and remaining truly religious is becoming harder and harder. The lifestyles that surround today's college and pro athletes make it really hard to be religious. While there was a time when the LDS Church got a lot of positive mileage from the national exposure of BYU's football and basketball programs I think that effort is losing steam with the changes being made in college football. The current investigation at BYU is going to make this effort even a harder sell.

  • Brio Alpine, UT
    May 23, 2014 9:51 a.m.

    @ SoonerUte:

    You are using a selective memory regarding BYU and it's current situation. Their AD has claimed in several past articles that scheduling the "big-boy" games is very difficult and as such is a constant frustration.

    Those schools have all seen what BYU did to Texas on national TV last year. They remember what they did to Miami a number of years ago when Miami came to Provo ranked #1 in the nation. As such, they understand what BYU is capable of on any day or game. They almost always play fellow big-boys very competitively.

    And since the supposedly elite of the big-boys have refused to see BYU as one of the bigs, they feel they have more to lose than to gain by playing BYU. BYU plays most of their games on national TV on ESPN. So having a team you refused to allow into your conference beat you in front of the entire country would be very embarrassing and a real downer with the ranking services. As such, they choose to pass on invitations to play BYU.

    BYU is ready and willing. Most of the "bigs" are not.

  • 311ute Reno, NV
    May 23, 2014 9:47 a.m.

    @idaho cougar fan,

    How is BYU's schedule getting better? They have TWO home games scheduled for 2016 while everyone in a P5 conference has their schedules completed. BYU has basically the entire month of OCT TBD with no hopes of getting anyone to come to LES. Why do you think the AD has been flying around the country meeting with anyone and everyone?

  • Flip McFetch Las Vegas, NV
    May 23, 2014 9:27 a.m.

    Some current undergrad. univ. rankings: US News & World Report, BYU #62, U. of Utah #121. Forbes, BYU #75, U. of Utah #143.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    May 23, 2014 9:19 a.m.

    College Presidents meet and decide who gets into conferences and who does not. Not the AD's and certainly not the coaches or other administrators. This may be hard to believe but when the Presidents of the Universities get together to make decisions on conference membership it isn't always about the sports involved or who is great at what sport and who isn't. Many times it comes down to who fits best within the club. Utah made the concious decision back in about 1970 beginning with President James E. Fletcher, a scientist and later two time director of NASA, and continuing on through subsequent Presidents like David Gardner to become a major and well repected research university. This decision and the success that followed with research in many areas but most profoundly in the medical fields paved the way for Utah to get an invitation to the PAC 12 from the other PAC 12 Presidents. Sure, the athletic success had to be there also, but it was not the number one factor in the minds of the Presidents. Obviously, if athletic on field success is the only determining factor then BYU does belong.

  • idaho cougar fan Twin Falls, ID
    May 23, 2014 8:47 a.m.

    It is funny to read all the comments. I like to bag on the Ute trolls as much as anybody and some of them are way off base. Some Ute fans actually use logic and have some good insight. Here is how I see it.

    1. BYU needs to win more games. The schedule is getting better in the future and will take care of itself. Win and we are in. BYU football has not done enough the last 10 years.

    2. Overall, BYU has one of the best athletic programs in the nation. One of only a few who operate in the black and not the red. Go ahead, do the research and see Uties!

    3. Main reason that BYU is not in a P5C, religious bigotry. Plain and simple. If we take everything into account, BYU has been passed up because of religious intolerance. Those who say otherwise are kidding themselves. If was all about money and # of viewers, BYU wins out way over Utah and Colorado. The research program crap is just a cover. You know it, I know it and Pac 10 presidents know it.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 8:21 a.m.

    Jazzsmack - "@SoonerUte provide evidence that BYU is not one of top 64 athletic programs"

    Version 2 Now with names!!

    51 different teams played in a BCS bowl game. They earn a spot in "the list".
    13 spots remain

    17 BCS teams didn't qualify for a BCS bowl. From that list, I'd take these teams ahead of BYU: Missouri, South Carolina, Arizona, Arizona State, California, Texas Tech, Mississippi State, Ole Miss.

    5 spots remain

    Its not just football. You said "athletic programs". Who would leave these basketball programs off the list?
    Indiana, Kentucky, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Duke.

    0 spots remain

    That leaves BYU as a bubble team, somewhere in this group:
    Virginia, Boston College, BYU, Iowa State, Vanderbilt.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    May 23, 2014 8:18 a.m.

    Correction: They're not as good as espn thought they were.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 8:02 a.m.

    G-Day-M8
    WVC, UT

    "Here are the facts.

    BYU was strongly considered at one time to join the PAC
    BYU was recruited by the SWC but would not bail on Utah
    BYU was not taken by the PAC 12 because of Cultural differences
    PAC 12 admission is by unanimous vote of school presidents
    The majority of PAC 12 school presidents would take BYU but that is not in play
    MWC member schools hated BYU as evidenced by Gary Patterson's and other schools hateful comments and attitudes
    BYU was used and abused by the MWC...

    These are facts?

    Definition of Fact: A thing that has actually happened or that is really true; reality; actuality; truth

    Here's a fact...
    The SEC and ACC have declared byu a mid-major and others are taking notice.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 23, 2014 7:46 a.m.

    zmillion2
    West Jordan, UT

    @Chris B.

    "I know that you know that BYU would have received an invite if we weren't a faith based institution...The reason BYU wasn't invited was because ALL of the schools already in the conference have to vote for the college to be accepted. There are a number of schools (Stanford, Cal) who would never vote BYU in due to our religious affiliation."

    zmillion2, you make a statement of fact out of your wishful thinking. Here's an excerpt from a comment posted by a byu fan two days ago...

    "I too, have tight connection to not only the pac 12 process, but to Holmoe's crew. BYU going independent...Utes to the PAC12 was a very deliberate decision. BYU and U were both in the discussion, but it came down to more than football...even though most on the committee felt like Utah had a slight edge there. It was the whole package: academics, international reputation, research, athletics, alumni, audience..."

    How do we know this description is accurate? Because this is exactly what was represented by the Pac-10 at the time of their invitation to Utah.

  • Colo. Aggie Loveland, CO
    May 23, 2014 1:15 a.m.

    CougarColby, you nailed it! I didn't like this article either! The last thing we need is a bunch of BYU folks claiming discrimination of all things. This seems very arrogant! However, BYU has burned a lot of bridges with other schools in the west over the years with exactly this type of arrogance! Instead, BYU needs to drop all these broadcast rights demands and realize they are not Texas nor Notre Dame and then present a rationale arguement to the Big 12 why they would help the conference. It's not about discrimination in my view. It's about not winning lately, and it's about thinking that BYU carries enough clout to name their price when it comes to conference affiliation. Sunday plan isn't the problem. It's all the other demands that BYU seems to make that have nothing to do with Church doctrine. Start to win and start to be a little more humble and you may end up getting invited by someone!!

  • gdog3finally West Jordan, Utah
    May 23, 2014 1:02 a.m.

    I am curious to know what the approach is or will be at BYU on this matter. Will they raise their voice and cry afoul (discrimination type approach), or use athletics to make a stance (church statement) that might end the program some day? I can't say I wouldn't be surprised either way.

    Things might play out somewhere in the middle though, where BYU wins the highest majority of their games within an easy schedule, gets exposure on ESPN (missionary tool), and uses leverage there to win more people over as well as offend along the way. This will keep things similar to how they are now, meaning much of the same perspectives BYU has about itself and others have towards them. The Cougars will get ranked winning 10 plus games against weak competition because of extensive fans around the country and TV contracts/money.

    Results? BYU keeps being excluded from the big bowl games (like in recent decades). However they will keep getting ranked by 'USA Today' courtesy of ESPN.

    If BYU cries discrimination, and I think they should, they also should have more sympathy for others discriminated against that they have ignored.

  • truthsandwich RANDOLPH, UT
    May 23, 2014 12:38 a.m.

    Sorry, the last thing BYU's image needs right now is for them to start playing the whiney victim card.

  • AntelopeValleyUte Palmdale, CA
    May 23, 2014 12:33 a.m.

    Regardless of the good comments from sports analyst around the country, the reasons why no one wants to invite BYU:

    1. BYU's ego-driven demands, no play on Sunday, wants BYUTv, and be considered a power team with a Mormon national following that has a 1984 national championship that merits prestige in its own right.

    2. They haven't played in a BCS game or won one (huge factor whether BYU faithful want to admit it or not; its earned not given and 1984 was a long time ago)

    3. Power 5 teams are afraid to play and lose to BYU because it will ruin their SOS because of a loss to (what the P5 conference consider BYU is) a "mid-major" caliber team.

    4. Add possible scandal.

    All the reasons why no one wants BYU.

    My advice...go undefeated and dominate your season and get an invited to a BCS bowl game and win, and maybe you might be considered. Ask TCU and Utah, they can help you in that department what you need to do.

  • NightOwlAmerica SALEM, OR
    May 23, 2014 12:20 a.m.

    A1994
    Centerville, UT said:

    "P5 Teams who have never won a national championship: Duke, Wake Forest, North Carolina State, North Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Baylor, Kansas, Kansas State, Texas Tech, West Virginia, Iowa State, Oregon, Oregon State, Washington State, Arizona, Arizona State, Mississippi State, South Carolina, Kentucky, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, and (wait for it) Utah. And there are several P5's (Like Cal and Stanford) who won their NC in the 1920s (just for anyone who is saying 1984 was so long ago.) This isn't a question of whether or not BYU is relevant in college football. Of course they are. They also have a Heisman Trophy in their case as well. This is an issue of not wanting to share money. I can't imagine any true college football fan who wants to shut our half of the FBS teams from competing."

    Yeah never mind the fact that Kansas is a basketball power, UA & ASU have won NCAA titles in several sports. Oregon State has college world series titles, Duke & N. Carolina are also basketball powers. There are other national titles with the schools you listed. Why do you only bring up Football?

  • NightOwlAmerica SALEM, OR
    May 23, 2014 12:12 a.m.

    dhsalum
    Saint George, UT
    @MyPerspective said:

    "Utah's academics are not better than BYU's. Each school has certain programs and certain schools that are better, but overall they are essentially equal. The Pac 12 got the salt lake market while not having to bringing in a church school. Anyone who followed expansion knows there was no chance BYU would be invited to the pac because of their association with the Mormon church."

    Sorry but you need to do more research. The PAC 12 has a set of criteria to join. Yes it's true that to some degree that BYU was not invited because it's a religious school. BYU fans need to remember here that when Texas, Oklahoma and the others were invited. Some politicians demanded that Baylor be part of the deal. The PAC 12 said no. Baylor is also a religious school, and actually brings little to the table as far as research and academics. So please stop playing the LDS discrimination card when talking about the PAC 12.

  • Cosmo1974 Woods Cross, UT
    May 23, 2014 12:11 a.m.

    Did you Utah "fans" even read the article? If you did, you would know that, like the author wrote, no one can honestly give a good reason as to why BYU shouldn't be given the chance to "play with the big boys." Because you think BYU doesn't deserve a chance, does that mean the rankings the author used like the Director's Cup ranking, ESPN's all-time college football prestige ranking, and Sports Illustrated's "Program Pecking Order" mean nothing? Do the people who work for ESPN and Sports Illustrated know nothing about college football? I think some Utah "fans" are just upset that BYU is ranked higher than Utah in several polls and ranking systems by people who know what they are talking about. Let the excuses fly!

  • NightOwlAmerica SALEM, OR
    May 23, 2014 12:02 a.m.

    KCbleedsblue
    SPANISH FORK, UT said:

    "The big picture is about discrimination of other college programs in the NCAA. What right does certain conferences have to create a monopoly of college football for the intent to control the direction of money channeled in the college football industry? ….."

    Because they can. The major conferences are fast approaching a time when they will have the power to break away from NCAA authority. And when they do, the tv contracts, money and fans will follow.

  • NightOwlAmerica SALEM, OR
    May 23, 2014 12:00 a.m.

    Unfortunately the author of this article shares the same sentiment as other BYU fans. They "deserve" and "belong." Sounds selfish and spoiled.
    Sorry, it does not work that way. Pouting and calling out major conferences only widens the gap between you and them.

  • Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UT
    May 22, 2014 10:46 p.m.

    continued from above

    5.Is BYU better than most fans and”experts” believe? For the past two years (at least) BYU has won the number of games predicted in Preseason. Last year they played 7 teams from the 5 top conferences. They defeated Texas! (a 5 loss Texas team). However that “good” win was more than offset by the inexplicable loss to Virginia.
    6.They have no chance to win a big game this year that would make a case for them being better than people believe. Why – because of a strength of schedule in the mid-nineties (Not 1 of the Big 5 conference members will play a schedule any where as weak as this one)they are favored in 11 of their games with Texas being a “toss-up” (So no chance to impress as Utah did when they defeated then #5 Stanford last season and Alabama in ’08 Sugar Bowl)

    This is just an "argument" that BYU doe not have a top 60 football team. However, If Utah is as bad as many BYU fans say they are applying logic to the past 3 years results leads to a plausible position.

  • Blue Cougar Oak Harbor, WA
    May 22, 2014 10:45 p.m.

    Folks, there is nothing to panic about. We're scheduling great games out into the future. Many other big teams will continue to play us because we travel well and because they get to be seen on ESPN when they play in Provo. We even play in bowl games every year; not every team can say that. ;)

  • Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UT
    May 22, 2014 10:42 p.m.

    @You are "Kidding, “Please do us all a favor. Please provide us with the empirical evidence that justified Utah's inclusion in AND BYU's exclusion from a P5 conference based on "on the field" performance" and from the article"Can anyone make an argument that BYU does not possess a …. top 60 football program?"

    Yes

    Consider the following:
    1. Majority of the "experts" would rank TCU and Utah ahead of BYU in the years prior to their admission to the PAC-12 and Big 12. (Consider the 20 years prior – not the period 40-20 years prior. A question of what have you done recently)
    2.Both TCU and Utah have struggled in the 3 years of current conference membership.
    3.BYU fans are quick to say Utah is “bottom-dweller” of PAC-12 and are “grouped with teams they consider the lowest of the major conferences. (names mentioned include Iowa State, Vanderbuilt, etc)
    4.Yet Utah has beaten the Y 9 of the last 12 years and the last 4.

    (to be continued)

  • Floyd Johnson Broken Arrow, OK
    May 22, 2014 10:29 p.m.

    I can stand up all I want and scream "I won't take it anymore," but all that is going to happen is my wife will tell me to be quiet, she is trying to sleep.

    To be heard, BYU has to win games and have a phenomenal season. They have not done that recently.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    May 22, 2014 9:57 p.m.

    @ A1994

    So what? Yale and Army both dwarf anything BYU has done in terms of awards. Should they be considered a P5 opponent?

    If BYU wants respect, schedule a P5 schedule and WIN. Using the courts to manufacture respect for your football program will not work.

  • Cosmo1974 Woods Cross, UT
    May 22, 2014 9:27 p.m.

    It seems that a lot of Utah "fans" simply are not getting the point. The author of the article used facts that can be easily verified for why BYU should be given a chance to compete for a NC as part of a P5 conference or at least get a Notre Dame "exception." If I remember correctly, when Utah broke into the BCS in 2004 and especially in 2008, wasn't there a lot of Utah fans that were complaining about how the BCS was unfair and the team should have been given a shot at the national championship? Yes, BYU hasn't won a BCS game, but again, as stated in the article, BYU's resume speaks for itself. As I've stated in other posts, I think Utah "fans" are happy about BYU's struggles simply because its BYU. If it were almost any other team or even Utah themselves, Ute "fans" would more than likely be saying the same things a lot of BYU fans are saying now.

  • slcftball Salt Lake City, UT
    May 22, 2014 9:10 p.m.

    CougarColby said it perfectly:

    re: A1194:"If the P5 schools want to create a bigger D1 league without BYU...then we need to play better so they have to include us." We are 2-12 against ranked opponents-our product isn't there NOW-who cares about 1984. The kids playing now weren't even born!

    "I honestly believe that BYU will be in the FCS division in the coming years because football isn't the most important thing at BYU." I hope sports arent dropped all together ala BYU Hawaii and Ricks...

    I ask you-if we were in the PAC where would we finish? Honestly. 10th? (we being member 13) ahd of Wash St, Cal, Colorado?

    Wash-no lost
    Utah-no lost
    OSU- no
    Oregon-no
    Stanford-no
    USC-no
    UCLA-no
    ASU-no
    AZ-no

    take your heart out of it...anyone diagree? if so u rank em

  • A1994 Centerville, UT
    May 22, 2014 8:35 p.m.

    P5 Teams who have never won a national championship: Duke, Wake Forest, North Carolina State, North Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Baylor, Kansas, Kansas State, Texas Tech, West Virginia, Iowa State, Oregon, Oregon State, Washington State, Arizona, Arizona State, Mississippi State, South Carolina, Kentucky, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, and (wait for it) Utah. And there are several P5's (Like Cal and Stanford) who won their NC in the 1920s (just for anyone who is saying 1984 was so long ago.) This isn't a question of whether or not BYU is relevant in college football. Of course they are. They also have a Heisman Trophy in their case as well. This is an issue of not wanting to share money. I can't imagine any true college football fan who wants to shut our half of the FBS teams from competing.

  • G-Day-M8 WVC, UT
    May 22, 2014 8:27 p.m.

    Here are the facts.

    BYU was not invited to join the Big 12
    Very few, if any conversations were even held
    BYU was strongly considered at one time to join the PAC
    BYU was recruited by the SWC but would not bail on Utah
    Sunday play was not part of the Big 12 not taking BYU as BYU was never in the running
    TV was not in part of the Big 12 not taking BYU as BYU was never in the running
    The arrogance of BYU being dissed by the Big 12 is a myth conjured up by the BYU haters
    BYU is a top perennial top 25 athletic school and has been for years
    BYU was not taken by the PAC 12 because of Cultural differences
    PAC 12 admission is by unanimous vote of school presidents
    The majority of PAC 12 school presidents would take BYU but that is not in play
    MWC member schools hated BYU as evidenced by Gary Patterson's and other schools hateful comments and attitudes
    BYU was used and abused by the MWC
    BYU was prepared for many years to move to independence
    BYU's independence move was NOT a knee jerk reaction

  • Flip McFetch Las Vegas, NV
    May 22, 2014 8:22 p.m.

    US News & World Report: BYU #62, U. of Utah #121
    Forbes: BYU #75, U. of Utah #143

  • zmillion2 West Jordan, UT
    May 22, 2014 8:20 p.m.

    @Chris B.

    I know that you know that BYU would have received an invite if we weren't a faith based institution. Obviously the PAC-12 would rather of had Utah and BYU rather than Colorado. The reason BYU wasn't invited was because ALL of the schools already in the conference have to vote for the college to be accepted. There are a number of schools (Stanford, Cal) who would never vote BYU in due to our religious affiliation. Also you mention that no Power-5 conference wants BYU. If I remember correctly the BIG-12 wanted BYU and it was a done deal until BYU said no to giving up T.V. rights.

    BYU is definitely better than at least half of the teams in the Power-5 conferences. I do think BYU will join a conference eventually. The BIG-12 makes the most sense, as the PAC-12's liberal schools would never accept BYU.

  • kitsutsuki South Jordan, Utah
    May 22, 2014 8:09 p.m.

    Those of you who say just win and everything will be ok are WRONG.

    BYU wins more games than 80% of the teams out there - and things are NOT ok. We are easily one of the top 64 teams, but we ARE NOT one of the top 20 teams and with restrictions we face in recruiting, never will be.

    Boise State won and won and won and where did it get them? What makes you think BYU is any different?

    BYU faces several problems. One is bigotry, like it or not. Look at the majority of Christians that claim we are not "one of them". You think they are predisposed to letting BYU join their conference? The second is geography. We don't fit any major conference, except the PAC10, and we know we are not going there. Third is Sunday play - a huge problem which we know BYU will never give in on.

    So are you willing to simply sit back and HOPE that we get invited to the dance? As this article points out, we should scream, holler and do what it takes to get what we deserve. Otherwise, we will be left out, mark it down.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    May 22, 2014 8:01 p.m.

    Jazzsmack - "@SoonerUte provide evidence that BYU is not one of top 64 athletic programs in the nation, and therefore not deserving of inclusion."
    If you are building a list of the top 64 athletic programs - regardless of conference affiliation -- one can make the case that BYU is in that list.

    But what good does that do you?

    Nobody is ranking the top 64 teams and drawing a line and saying "this is the new division". The division is based on the SCHEDULE you play. You will never have a convincing argument that BYU plays a major schedule until they schedule 9 teams from the major conferences. "On paper" is not good enough. We prove things on the field now.

    Imagine 3 unbeaten teams, Ohio State, Oregon, and Alabama, but Alabama has played BYU's 2014 schedule. Which two teams earned the right to play for the National Title?
    (Hint: Not Alabama)

    If BYU is not included, your complaint is with Tom Holmoe for not creating a major schedule.
    And would you really want that? Look what happened to UU and TCU when they started major schedules. Such would be BYU's fate. On field results say so.

  • Jazzsmack Holladay, UT
    May 22, 2014 7:31 p.m.

    @SoonerUte
    @Chris B

    Please provide your evidence that BYU is not one of top 64 athletic programs in the nation, and therefore not deserving of inclusion.

    Losing to Utah is not evidence, if it were so then by virtue of Utah's loss to Colorado they do not deserve to be included as well.

  • I<3tennis Sandy, UT
    May 22, 2014 6:21 p.m.

    I have always believed BYU can compete with the best. I have no idea what can be done to make the world of sports more fair. It would be fantastic to see BYU playing with more top tier schools!!! I am annoyed with schools, programs and athletes that think they are entitled--so let's give every school a chance to compete, earn and reach their potential! I believe BYU has earned that right! Your article is very thought provoking!!!

  • CougarColby Fort Benning, GA
    May 22, 2014 6:17 p.m.

    A couple of notes:
    1) As a BYU fan and member of the LDS church, I do not like this article at all. One of the biggest problems in our culture is a sense of entitlement and crying the victim. Since when are we a victim? We receive a ridiculous amount of money each game ESPN broadcasts, we wanted Independence, and we have been approached by multiple conferences about possible membership (Big12, Big East, AAC, and Conference USA).

    2)If the P5 schools want to create a bigger D1 league without BYU...then we either need to play better so they have to include us, or we accept the changing culture of college football and go our way. They can do whatever they want. They have the money and power right now.

    3)I honestly believe that BYU will be in the FCS division in the coming years because football isn't the most important thing at BYU. There isn't anything wrong with that. I would rather potentially win NCs at that level then be a doormat in a P5 conference.

  • AllSeeingEye Salt Lake City, UT
    May 22, 2014 6:14 p.m.

    Don't think that raising a political ruckus or filing law suit will get BYU into a power conference. Also, don't think that blaming others for their Anti-Mormon bias will get it done.

    Nobody likes to hear people complain.

    BYU needs to sell itself using its best asset--which is not it's claims to having top-notch sports programs. It's the fan base--the ability to put people in stadiums and in front of TVs.

    BYU needs to move first on the real issue--being in a power football conference. If other sports stay in the WCC or wherever, that's fine--at least in the short term.

    BYU also needs to give up on trying to demand, for example, a TV deal similar to what Texas has if BYU wants to be in the BIG 12. This whole matter may come down to what BYU wants more--inclusion in a power football conference or the right to produce its own TV games. The way things are going, there is a pretty obvious choice.

    And, being more agreeable generally, and less self-absorbed, would probably help.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    May 22, 2014 6:08 p.m.

    If BYU wants a seat at the big boy table, they need to earn it. The P5 teams will ALL play a schedule that contains at least 9 other P5 schools. As an independent BYU can freely choose their schedule. They freely choose to schedule only a handful of P5 conference teams.

    Do fans really think BYU should be treated as equal when they won't play an equal schedule?

    Why is BYU considered a mid-major? Because they choose to play a mid-major schedule.

    What jury would believe that BYU deserves a share of the money when they haven't earned it? You'd have better luck convincing a Tea Party Republican to expand welfare programs.

  • Pearl.94 Riverton, UT
    May 22, 2014 5:46 p.m.

    I am new to the world of commenting on articles. Wow. It is amazing how quickly people are to insult each other. It is clearly not a place for polite conversation.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 22, 2014 5:42 p.m.

    Brio
    Alpine, UT

    "@ MyPerspective:

    Since, as you so frankly admitted, there are so many parts of this issue you don't yet understand, it would probably be best for you to refrain from commenting from such an unknowledgeable viewpoint..."

    aaaaaannnnndddd that explains nothing at all.

    dhsalum
    Saint George, UT

    "@MyPerspective

    That is literally the most inane comment I've ever seen on here that wasn't from an obvious troll.

    "Pac-12...a conference that is about much more than sports."

    From a byu fan yesterday...

    "I too, have tight connection to not only the pac12 process, but to Holmoe's crew...Utes to the PAC12 was a very deliberate decision. BYU and U were both in the discussion, but it came down to more than football...even though most on the committee felt like Utah had a slight edge there. It was the whoe package: academics, international reputation, research, athletics, alumni audience. Two great universities both doing great things."

    The reason we all know this is fact is because it is exactly what the Pac-10 laid out as criteria when they invited the UofU to join them.

    Definition of INANE: Facts that you don't want to hear.

  • spokaloo White Salmon, WA
    May 22, 2014 5:39 p.m.

    This article hits the nail on the head. BYU is not Ohio State or Alabama. BYU fans get that. But they are also not Washington State, Rutgers, or Iowa State. This is not a Utah vs. BYU issue. Utah has risen to the occasion at just the right time to be included with the big boys. This is about how BYU by any metric deserves to play with the big boys too. I have no doubt that BYU did much of it's glory year damage with a weak schedule. Utah is showing how hard that change would be for BYU as well. It is no secret why the PAC 12 isn't interested in BYU. Cultural fit? That's code for we don't want religious schools. Fine. If the Big 12 doesn't want BYU, fine. But seriously, let BYU be independent with access at least. They have shown the commitment to sports to be allowed to compete at the highest levels.

  • Jeff ls Farr West, 84404
    May 22, 2014 5:32 p.m.

    Football is an elite sport and because of the money involved it is a very private club for the most part. Those who control the sport are also equally worried about self preservation. Everyone of them know that they can be beat on a given saturday. If they schedule BYU they know that those chances raise significantly. Usually BYU is a fairly good team. I am not saying that other teams are not good. During some years BYU has had very good teams. Ask Washington, Miami, Penn St. Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, or Kansas St. I just want a level playing field. If you compared it with college rugby in the divisions that exhist. BYU is just about as good as it gets on the college level. Cal is also in that elite class. I don.t see any SEC or ACC rugby teams scheduling either CAL or BYU in rugby. Why, because they know they will get their clocks cleaned. Not saying that BYU would beat them in football. Just want a level playing field.
    Jeff

  • brs27 Beaver, UT
    May 22, 2014 5:26 p.m.

    Mormon Ute,

    I totally agree with your comments regarding size of venue and the prevailing trends in that area. But those weren't the points I was refuting from MyPerspective.

    To those who think that BYU turned down an invite from the Big 12; it didn't happen. There was no invitation. In negotiations I don't think BYU would have demanded Texas-like accommodations; we simply don't have the clout and everybody admits it. As to whether the TV rights were a deal-breaker, again I think people are only speculating here. I don't think that was every singled out as the reason. Sure BYU wants to use their new broadcast facility, but I don't believe for a second that BYUtv would demand immediate rebroadcast rights. They have clearly demonstrated that they are willing to wait days, or even weeks, to rebroadcast a game. There is no way that a reasonable accommodation on TV rights was not possible. Something else got in the way.

  • Brio Alpine, UT
    May 22, 2014 5:19 p.m.

    @ 311ute:

    Try reading the article again. BYU didn't claim they deserve a seat at the P5 table. The writer of the article did. Also, Boise State has nothing whatsoever to do with the article or the subject at hand.

    However, you are right about Utah not deserving their PAC12 membership. Based on their performance since joining, they are way over their heads as they compete to try to stay out of the conference basement year after year.

    Try harder to understand what's going on and to catch up to speed. Or at least stay relevant to the given topic. Being off-topic doesn't help your argument at all.

  • Brio Alpine, UT
    May 22, 2014 5:13 p.m.

    @ slcftball:

    It's obvious that you (like Chris B and MyPerspective) failed to read the entire article. It articulated in very objective terms how BYU's entire sports program has been ranked in the Top-25 in the nation 17 of the last 21 years and #11 (Utah #43) in the most recent rankings... all based on on-the-field performance and nothing subjective.

    There is whole lot more to sports that just football. But even in football, BYU has finished the season ranked nationally higher than Utah in most of the past decade. And there is whole lot more to any program than just a single head-to-head game each season.

    You are putting too much emphasis on just a few things and not catching the big picture at all.

    @ brs27:

    BYU has much higher average attendance to almost every sport there is than Utah, with the possible exception of gymnastics. But even with just the big ones... football and basketball, BYU easily wins that attendance average. And not just against Utah. It's one of the highest (if not the highest) in the intermountain region.
    It's you that brought up the subject.

  • 311ute Reno, NV
    May 22, 2014 5:01 p.m.

    BYU saying that they "deserve" a seat at the P5 table may be well intentioned but it comes off badly. This type of attitude will only accelerate the exclusion, not deter from it.

    Look at Boise St, are they screaming from the kids table? Nope, they are just making the best of which they have. Utah didn't earn their place in the P12, they were at the right place at the right time. While the 2 BCS games helped, Utah was a great fit for the P12 on AND off the field. It was a natural fit, it wasn't "deserved".

    I disagree with the articles tactics in bringing up discrimination, it's a losing argument.

  • dhsalum Saint George, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:50 p.m.

    @MyPerspective

    That is literally the most inane comment I've ever seen on here that wasn't from an obvious troll.

    "Pac-12...a conference that is about much more than sports."

    Utah's academics are not better than BYU's. Each school has certain programs and certain schools that are better, but overall they are essentially equal. The Pac 12 got the salt lake market while not having to bringing in a church school. Anyone who followed expansion knows there was no chance BYU would be invited to the pac because of their association with the Mormon church.

    "byu brings nothing but a baseball field, a big stadium that isn't full, and a basketball arena that isn't full.."

    Do you really want to discuss basketball attendance? Utah is not even in BYU's league in bball attendance. In case you didn't know.. 16,000 per game is a lot more than 8000.
    Plus the Marriott Center>>>>Huntsman Center. And why is having 40,000 in a full football stadium better than 60,000 in a 65,000 seat stadium??

  • Brio Alpine, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:47 p.m.

    @ MyPerspective:

    Since, as you so frankly admitted, there are so many parts of this issue you don't yet understand, it would probably be best for you to refrain from commenting from such an unknowledgeable viewpoint.

    Just let things work out on their own, or at least try coming up to speed before trying to comment. The issue will then make more sense to you and your comments will probably then make more sense to the rest of us.

  • slcftball Salt Lake City, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:43 p.m.

    Re area52

    Proof? As a BYU/LDS fan and member, I think this article is stupid. We have gone 2-13 against ranked opponents in our last 15 games. We have lost 4 in a row to our rival. We couldn't beat the sixth place team in the PAC in our bowl game.

    In the national picture we are but a Minnesota. Good but not great. We don't carry the clout we once did.

    If we were smart, we would join the MTN West. Win that league and go for the 6th spot in the BCS games that are open and we could get. And fellow fans don't give me anymore cow dung that we will be in the final 4 Natl Championship.

  • RSLfanalways Why, AZ
    May 22, 2014 4:39 p.m.

    I don't think BYU will push to hard since it may make the LDS Church look bad and it will not take a chance on. The Ute's will be in the higher conference and hopefully will start playing better because it has made the State of Utah look bad for the last few years.

  • Pearl.94 Riverton, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:39 p.m.

    On Merit, BYU belongs: A third motive for the discrimination is:

    3. Religion. Yes I said religion.

    Many of the schools in the SEC and ACC are in the heart of the 'Bible Belt'. I lived their for years. It is absolutely true that there are wonderful Christians in that part of the country.

    It is also absolutely true that many of those same kind Christians are continuously faced with preachers and family members teaching them that Mormons are evil. Anti-Mormon sentiment is very, very real. It is naive not to realize that some of the powers that be in the 'power 5' have been taught since they were children to despise and avoid Mormons and to certainly NOT do anything that would promote the cause of Mormonism. To some, (not all) of the decision makers, including BYU would be assisting the cause of the evil Mormons. I know it is ugly and everyone wants to believe that significant religious bias against Mormons doesn't exist. It does.

    Racism is real, homophobia is real, sexism is real, and religious bigotry is real. Fighting those things is a long, expensive, and ugly process but it is better than stupidly denying their existence.

  • sky2k1 Provo, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:35 p.m.

    I hate pulling the religion card. BYU is not looked down upon because they are run by the LDS church. Sure, that has some consequences (such as not playing on Sunday), but no major conference is saying, "We don't like Mormons, so no invites for you". Our two biggest problems are that we haven't had a "wow" season or two, even though we have been pretty consistent over the years, and we are difficult to work with. I believe BYU should always hold its ground as far as Sunday play is concerned, and other honor code or religious beliefs, But we can't demand to make as much money as we think we deserve. If we went Big 12, we shouldn't demand as much of the pie as Texas or OU. That's just ridiculous.

  • kitsutsuki South Jordan, Utah
    May 22, 2014 4:32 p.m.

    Mormons as a group are sometimes not as assertive as they should be. The argument was made eloquently that BYU most definitely belongs in the upper echelons of college sports, but due to bigotry (and whatever other excuses Utah fans want to come up with), BYU is being shut out.

    It is time that not only powerful members of the Church and supporters of BYU start becoming more aggressive in the quest to get BYU included, but the masses as well.

    This article is dead on.

  • Mormon Ute Kaysville, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:32 p.m.

    brs27,

    Interesting you talk about filling BYU's big arena and stadium. The current trend is downsizing. Due to the high quality of the broadcasts and the fact that nearly every game is televised fewer people are going to the games. Most of the newer college sports venues are smaller than those built years ago, but they are nicer in their the accommodations they offer the fans as a reward for making the effort to actually go to the games. Number of seats isn't as important any more as the quality of the experience.

  • Jim1027 St. George, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:31 p.m.

    This is one of the best articles I've read in this paper in ages. Well done!

    If BYU took this case to court as an anti-trust case, they'd win.

  • Pearl.94 Riverton, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:29 p.m.

    This article give ample evidence that based on athletic Merit BYU belongs. The discrimination has several motives. Two of them are:

    1. Money and greed.

    2. Ego and fear. Including BYU is admitting that one more school belongs in your group of supposedly ultra elite and vastly superior athletic programs. It is easier to push BYU down than to face the fear of losing to them. I don't believe the top half of the 'Power 5' conferences are afraid to lose to BYU but Pitt, Virginia, North Carolina, Kentucky, Arkansas, Wake Forest, etc.. are afraid to lose to BYU.

  • mcdugall Murray, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:27 p.m.

    If reports are accurate, BYU turned down an invitation to the Big12. You're argument at this point is nearly moot.

  • 10CC Bountiful, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:23 p.m.

    P5 TV contracts include the provision for possible football games on Sunday. The likelihood of that happening is pretty remote, but Utah nearly had a Sunday game scheduled vs USC in Los Angeles in their first year in the PAC when it looked like the NFL would be on strike.

    The P5 and their TV partners want that flexibility, even if it's not often used.

    When the Big-12 needed to quickly stabilize after seeing the defections of Missouri and Texas A&M to the SEC, Sunday play obviously was not on the table with BYU, and the Big-12 wanted a full member in all sports, so they quickly invited TCU.

    If BYU is excluded from the P5 level of football, BYU fans should own it, should accept the fact the big conferences are reluctant to renegotiate their TV contracts for BYU. Keeping the Sabbath Holy should placate and anger among BYU fans.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:22 p.m.

    I don't understand any of this. I don't understand why the Utah media is compelled to continue stoking the fire; I don't understand why byu fans feel entitled to a handout; and I especially don't understand what scheduling has to do with exposure.

    Independence was sold to byu fans first and foremost as the best way to get exposure. A goal that would be achieved through a newly forged partnership with ESPN. Well, byu has that. The notion of being able to play any team anywhere in the country was embarrassingly oversold but with the good graces of ESPN, the rest of the goal is in tact.

    So go do it. Holmoe had no business kicking the 'we're byu and you have to give us an exception' hornets nest. In fact, it's beginning to look like exposure was never truly the goal to begin with. Holmoe doesn't know what he wants and is presently leading byu athletics down the same path he lead Cal football which, by the way, is still in recovery mode.

  • brs27 Beaver, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:14 p.m.

    Chris B,

    Your constant condescending references to "Us" and "Our conference" are well beyond Amusing and almost to Pathetic. When Utah demonstrates the ability to be much more than a doormat in the Pac-12 you can demonstrate a little ownership. Until then, humility and gratitude might be more appropriate.

    MyPerspective,

    I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. I may not either, since I won't waste the time to research the details (I'm sure someone here can supply the stats), but you cite an unfilled stadium and basketball arena as "disqualifications" for BYU. If my memory is accurate, I think BYU Basketball has one of the largest home attendance records in the country over the last few years, and I'm very confident that BYU Football is WELL ABOVE the average attendance of the "Big 5" conference teams. Even if the stadium isn't maxed out, I'd rather have game attendance of 62,000 in a 64,000 seat stadium than fill every spot in a 45,000 seat venue. Just saying....

  • KCbleedsblue SPANISH FORK, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:04 p.m.

    The big picture is about discrimination of other college programs in the NCAA. What right does certain conferences have to create a monopoly of college football for the intent to control the direction of money channeled in the college football industry? There are laws in our country that prohibit this type of action. How would you like just one company controlling all cell phone service? We would be freaking out. Our laws prohibit this from happening because it has happened at the turn of the 20th century. Unfortunately, the NCAA and our legal system is for some reason turning a blind eye to what is happening right before our eyes. There must be a lot of money being passed under the table on this one! I smell major corruption! There are many other college football programs that should have the same opportunities as the so called elite--by the way--whoever or what stuck up person decided to call themselves elite? The NCAA and the feds need to put the clamps on groups, individuals or conferences combining their efforts to discriminate, control the money and hold themselves above of other schools programs.

  • Johnny Triumph American Fork, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:02 p.m.

    It'll be a very slow road though. When did Lavell testify before Congress about the BCS and when did the BCS actually change? The haves continue to dictate the future of college football and the have-nots will just have to take the punches. I wouldn't be too surprised to see BYU pull out of football sponsorship altogether; they could then sue the NCAA for lost millions in revenue...

  • Mormon Ute Kaysville, UT
    May 22, 2014 4:00 p.m.

    I agree BYU deserves to be included with the best programs in college sports, but I believe there are multiple reasons they are being increasingly pushed aside and some are of BYU's own making. The unwillingness to compromise on broadcast rights is one of the major ones. Just as the Utes have had to accept a smaller conference payout in the early going of their Pac 12 membership, BYU must accept less control over it's broadcast rights to get into a conference. Another reason is the power conferences and schools are stressing the importance of membership. Notre Dame has even gotten the message and joined the ACC in all sports with an agreement to play 5 football games a year. BYU's administration seems reluctant to accept this and may have waited too long. No matter how loud BYU cries, they will have to compromise of some issues. Certainly not on anything principle based or religious, but when it comes to controlling broadcast rights and money BYU cannot continue to act like they belong near the top of the Power 5 conferences. They need to accept their position near the bottom and then work their way up from within.

  • Cinci Man FT MITCHELL, KY
    May 22, 2014 3:50 p.m.

    This article and most posters may have missed the primary argument that keeps BYU from top tier consideration. Pure and simple, it is the policy of practicing our religion by allowing all those involved in sports to keep the sabbath day holy according to the dictates of their own consciences. It's money. It's special consideration. It's "we are the only ones preserving religious freedom for our sporting participants". It's a problem that won't go away I commend the brethren who do not cave in. Sports are not as important as the principles of the gospel. It would be inconceivable that the church would remove religious freedom to preserve football. That makes no sense.

  • golfrUte SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    May 22, 2014 3:45 p.m.

    @ International Cougar Fan

    Too bad byu can't beat Utah.

    Does byu deserve to be in the top 65? Of course it does. byu needs to get into one of the big 5 conferences and to do that they'll have to agree to the terms and conditions of the conference to which they belong or continue as an independent and do they best they can. Can't have it both ways.

  • DresdenBalla Germany, 00
    May 22, 2014 3:39 p.m.

    Seems pretty obvious BYU belongs. If they were not passed over by the Pac12 for social reasons, then what are the reasons? Seems to be the only reason that makes sense.

  • IBleedBlue Provo, Utah
    May 22, 2014 3:31 p.m.

    I agree with this article. There is a fine line between being the conservative, humble university which displays characteristics of being "slow to anger" and being push-overs. It's not difficult to see that BYU is hated in many ways, and the exclusion from Power 5 is blatant evidence. It is illogical. It may have nothing to do with religion at all, but any university athletic program with a similar resume being excluded from the top-tier would result in outrage from its fans and supporters. I know we are the "good mormon boys" but I agree that it is time that we make our voice heard.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 22, 2014 3:30 p.m.

    YouAreKidding
    Salt Lake City, UT

    "Please do us all a favor. Please provide us with the empirical evidence that justified Utah's inclusion in AND BYU's exclusion from a P5 conference based on "on the field" performance."

    You are cherry picking your own criteria. byu's strategy for the last 50 years...sports. Nobody said byu lacks 'athletic prowess,' a criterion of the Pac-10. The problem is, byu brings nothing but a baseball field, a big stadium that isn't full, and a basketball arena that isn't full to the table. That's it. And that simply is not good enough for the Pac-12...a conference that is about much more than sports.

  • International Cougar Fan Tacoma, WA
    May 22, 2014 3:14 p.m.

    The best thing that BYU can do is win games on the schedule and subsequent bowl games. That is what they can control. Don't worry about what you can not control. Too bad utah can no longer win enough games to go to a bowl game.

  • Jace J Salt Lake City, UT
    May 22, 2014 3:06 p.m.

    Maybe it's time to get into a conference.

  • YouAreKidding Salt Lake City, UT
    May 22, 2014 2:59 p.m.

    Chris B.

    Please do us all a favor. Please provide us with the empirical evidence that justified Utah's inclusion in AND BYU's exclusion from a P5 conference based on "on the field" performance.

    Please remember, being the anti-BYU doesn't count as evidence.

  • Area 52 Tooele, UT
    May 22, 2014 2:50 p.m.

    Chris B.

    Your comments are pretty comical LOL This article states the reasons why BYU deserves to be in with the rest of the Big Boys and the article has some really good evidence. Why don’t you provide the evidence against letting BYU in and not a personal bias as your reasons?

  • Kralon HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA
    May 22, 2014 2:36 p.m.

    Bigotry is alive and well and comes in many forms. Just ask those who are Utah fans because they hate BYU! (Might be interesting to note I attended Utah and loved my time there, still a fan)

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    May 21, 2014 12:23 p.m.

    And I thought the previous articles showed the byu meltdown!

    This is just downright comical.

    All mid-majors are essentially division II at this point, with virtually no reason to believe they will ever be anything other than that.

    Our conference(the pac 12) sent out a letter to all other big boy universities outlining our plan to further separate ourselves from the mid-majors.

    And its going to happen.

    We(the power 5) are leaving mid-majors behind and establishing a new division I essentially.

    Wyoming, Utah state, byu, and all other mid-majors can form their own playoffs or whatever, we don't care.

    But you are OUT!

    And for good reason

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    May 21, 2014 12:20 p.m.

    This is really getting sad, and funny for me to watch.

    The whole reason we haven't invited byu to our conference and the whole reason no other big boy conference sees byu as anything as a mid-major is because of the collective byu attitude that they are bigger/better than they are.

    As far as lawsuits?

    LOl!

    Byu doesn't have legal authority to demand we include them in the power 5 any more than San Diego state has legal authority to demand access to the Pac 12 championship