The examiner•Deficiencies:1.Lacks real enforcement teeth2.The illegal immigrants are free to remain in the US and simply find another
job, or even return to the old one with a new stolen id.3.There is no
spotlight on the companies who hire illegals which might serve as a deterrent4.Companies may find paying the fines an acceptable trade-off for cheap
laborWashington timesFeb. 25 2014Wall street
journalMay 2 2012While the audits don't lead to the deportation
of a firm's illegal workers, they all lose their jobs. truthout.orgThe government says forcing bosses to fire workers is more
humane than deporting them.With reduced fines, and no deportations,
they are a joke. It's busy work like in grade school. Less than 2.000
businesses a year out of 7.4 million. It's a real big joke.
It's hard to find common ground when one side refuses to enforce laws
already in place. Then where does trust that laws won't be "selectively
enforced" as they are now come from? "Change the law or I'll just
ignore them or find a way around them." is not a president's response
but the response of a criminal. With that in mind, why bother to make any new
laws for him and millions of foreigners to pick and choose which they will obey?
@Prelax... if the raids are a joke.... quantify that statement. Do you have
numbers to back up your claims?
Obama's silent raids are a joke. In most cases the people working here
illegally were allowed to find new jobs. The American business owner was fined
(less that the law calls for), and the foreign citizens was allowed to continue
breaking our laws. Somethings wrong here. Why keep doing things that
don't work, like reform (amnesty). With 3.2 million visa workers allowed
each year, good for three years, we don't need illegal help.
From the Washington times:"The Obama administration regularly cuts a
break for businesses that violate immigration hiring rules, reducing their fines
by an average of 40 percent from what they should be, according to an audit
released Tuesday that suggests the government could be doing more to go after
unscrupulous employers."According to the audit, conducted by the
Homeland Security Department’s inspector general, U.S. Immigration and
Customs Enforcement cut one business’s fine from $4.9 million to slightly
more than $1 million — a 78 percent drop.Reform is a waste of
time with Obama's record of enforcement. How many groups have been given
@2 Bits... from the Wall Street Journal we have,"The U.S.
government has launched a fresh crackdown on employers suspected of hiring
illegal immigrants by notifying about 1,000 businesses across the country in
recent weeks they must submit documents for audits.The so-called
"silent raids" are the largest since July 2009 when just as many
companies were notified, according to immigration attorneys, and weren't
publicly disclosed by Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the agency that
conducts such inspections."""The latest audit push
demonstrates that the government is not suspending its enforcement efforts, even
during the debate on immigration," says Julie Myers Wood, former ICE chief
during the Bush administration and now a compliance consultant."Seems that a former Bush administration disagrees with your assessment of if
Obama has let up on the cause. One thing I did read is that Obama has shifted
attention to white collar enforcement rather than blue collar - with the
justification being these were high paying jobs being taken. Not sure if I buy
that or not... But this is not something there has been much
difference where party in charge has done much different from the others.
Maybe the common ground we have is... WE want our jobs... and THEY want our
jobs....I'm mostly kidding, but kinda serious. It's part
of the reason we have such low wages for some jobs in America.
@UtahBlueDevil 11:15,Re: "It is sort of like the war on
drugs."...Good concept (in theory) But some facts are missing.
#1. We do prosecute companies that hire illegals (remember the raid
on the meat plant in Logan and the SLC Airport (back when Bush was in office).
And Democrats condemning our government for doing it??? We just need to KEEP
doing this (we stopped about 6 years ago).#2. In order to stop the
drug trade... we do pursue and arrest producers, pushers AND consumers of
illegal drugs. We aren't letting any of them off. And like the illegal
immigration problem... it never goes away. ===You
pretend we don't prosecute companies that hire illegals (we do... just not
enough).We do need to address the demand-side of the equation (but
NOT give up on the enforcement side). What specifically in this bill
concentrates on the DEMAND side? I've heard no talk of this bill getting
tough on employers that hire illegals. Bush's did... Democrats
wouldn't even allow a vote on it...And like the war on drugs...
will concentrating on the demand side work? It hasn't worked before... why
would it work now?
I do think it is interesting that so much is focused on the "illegals" ,
meaning those from other countries. We get all wound up on how we should be
informing laws and bumping them back to where they came from... and yet little
to nothing is discussed with those that are employing these people.It is sort of like the war on drugs. We spend billions fighting production
of the drugs, and billions on interdiction in this country, and billions on
putting users in jail. There is the constant discussion about how it is demand
for drugs in the country is driving illegal behavior elsewhere. That if we
could only reduce demand, we would also reduce the illegal source activities.If we could stop usage of cheap illegal labor by US employers, people
wouldn't come here. So long as there is demand, there will be a supplier -
regardless if it is drugs or employees. Prosecute those use the crack of cheap
labor, the supply of labor will go away.But it is ever so much
easier to blame the supplier than the user. But as we all know, demand drives
supply, not the other way around.
1986 - Amnesty for 2.5 million illegals. Now, 28 years later and several mini
amnesties, we have 12-20 million illegals. 20 years from now another amnesty
for who knows how many. Conclusion=amnesties don't solve the problem.
Enforcement does. Enforce laws already on the books, especially against the
employers who hire illegals. Viva LEGAL immigration.
Here's some common ground -- at least it should be. How about
a stay at home mom with American kids and an American spouse, who's paid
taxes, hasn't been a burden on society in any way, and yet can't get
her status fixed, get a drivers license, etc because purists on the issue refuse
to give an inch? The choice is stay in the shadows, live without a dl, never
leave the country, even to see immediate family members you haven't seen in
years, or go back to Mexico and take your husband and kids with you. Yes, that situation exists (I personally know several examples) because all
the venom on this issue has made ANY kind of reform impossible.
@ScrewdriverRe: "Why can goods go across boarders effortlessly
but people can't"...Because goods don't need a job.
Goods don't sell drugs or get involved in crime. They don't need to
fund organized crime (to get fake IDs and SS#s). They don't need
society's resources (schools, houses, jails, malls, roads, unemployment
insurance, food stamps, retirement benefits, tax refunds, etc)...I'm amazed you would equate PEOPLE... with commodities. I
think inside you know why they are different...======Commodities are bought... They come across the border and are purchased by
consumers.People are not consumed. They come, and in order to stay
they must get involved with organized crime people (to get a SS#, Drivers
License, housing, insurance, etc).... And people are not a
constant. They have children. Children raised in a relatively affluent
American lifestyle, educated in American schools, living the American dream.
And those kids will not accept the jobs Americans don't do. Same for their
children, and their children's children, and their children.... If we have
12 Million now... how many in 4 generations?? Ever done the math?That doesn't happen with products shipped over the border...
I was hoping this article would tell us where that "common ground"
was.It took a long time getting there, but in the last paragraph I
THINK he finally touched on it.They want jobs.... and we want them
to do those jobs. But we don't want them taking OUR jobs (or
our children's jobs). That's not easy. A temp-worker
permit is a good idea, but won't work. When they get here on the
temp-worker program... they have kids. Those kids are American Citizens.
They have been through the American education system, and are used to the
American life-style. They would flounder if sent back to live and work in
Mexico (when their parent's visa runs out).Obviously they would
stay... and hide... and raise their kids in America.Basically right
back where we are today.So though that sounds nice... think ahead.
It's not hard to figure out it would end up right where we are now.Even if they plan to be TEMP initially... they are going to stay (and
start a family). Then it's hard to enforce the "TEMP" part of the
The only reason there is no comprehensive immigration reform (which passed in
the Senate, and sits in the House of Representatives) is that the issue is
campaign gold for the Tea Party and the Republican base. Nothing else need be
said. This issue motivates the older, conservative crowd who hear the siren
song (from Fox) of nationalism on a daily basis. That song laments the loss of
privilege and majoritarian status of the mostly white, mostly conservative
Christian, mostly male, mostly heterosexual and mostly older privileges to make
laws and rules to suit their interests. The effrontery of women to demand equal
pay! The gall of gays to demand equal treatment before the law! The horror of
people believing other than their conservative Christian dogma! The arrogance
of those awful non-white folks to ask to live a better life than that which we
white folks chose for you! And don't you dare touch my Social Security and
Medicare. Socialism! That is all you need to know about
immigration reform. It is good for the Republicans to demagogue the issue to
Chris BYou might be surprised to know that some have marched back
when the work was not there. And, if employers were REALLY held accountable for
hiring the illegals, there would be a flood of returning illegals.
My constant question is: why can't both sides work together? We all have
our personal feelings about things but should we not pay attention to the
things which are best for our country? It's a darn shame that these illegal
people want to work and provide for their families so bad they will do anything
to accomplish that and yet you look at the number of citizens on Welfare(many
who abuse the system because they do not want to have to work). There is the
difference here. Wanting to work and provide and not wanting to work and expect
to be coddled by our system. There are good and bad in every nationality but
I've known personally some very good, honest and hard working Mexican
people here in Utah, Arizona and Las Vegas. They are the cream of the crop. They
are citizens now and if only the other illegals would be patient and do what it
is legally required to become a citizen. They don't want anything more than
Are you all serious. This has nothing to do with actually solving problems. If
it were, we would have this done, or at least partially done. But this is about
winning political points.... not solving problems. We have let the parties
make themselves more important than country. When one party wins, a good
portion of the country looses.Lets stop pretending that anything
that is going on in Washington has something to do with the well being of this
country. We are obsessed in the sport of politics. We are divided like the
Yankees and Red Sox. Both sides hate each other.... and winning.... at all cost
is all that matters.There is too much money at stake in keeping
people from working together. MSNBC and FoxNews would have nothing to report if
Washington actually worked. Talk radio would dry up if there wasn't
another side to hate.Immigration reform is just the half time
Why can goods go across boarders effortlessly but people can't? Do you
believe in free markets or not? Not, if you did you would see that
fiat currency manipulation is the only way to create the condition that a
Mexican worker has to work ten times as long for the same benefit as an american
worker a few miles away. Yet a bar of gold or a pound of sugar can
cross the border without taxes and without losing value. Did the Lord create the
world so a few could Lord themselves above the others?
The answer is at hand, the court just upheld the right for cities to stop people
from renting to illegal immigrants. A local government can also force local
business to use e-verify, with penalties. Funny how enforcement
stories never make it into the national media.
We tried the "common ground" and "comprehensive solution" in
1986 with Simpson-Mazzoli, and it was a total disaster.We were
promised that the border would be secured if we gave amnesty to millions of
criminals who came here illegally. Well, the amnesty got done, and the border
was never sealed.Fool me once....I would support some
sort of path to citizenship, but ONLY if the border sere secured FIRST and that
illegal immigration was demonstrably cut to near zero for a period of three
years before ANY of the amnesty provisions were implemented.However,
the Democrats refuse to do anything that will hinder their adding 12 million
undocumented Democrats to voter rolls by November, 2016.No amnesty,
not now, not ever. Secure the borders! Welcome legal immigrants, and prosecute
any who break our laws to get here.
The problem with the concept of "common ground" lies in the fact that
the primary motivators of the opposing sides of the issue must lie on that
common ground.On the left it is seen as a recruiting tool. Even if
the adults do not seek citizenship, their citizen children are more likely to
support leftist candidates, thus ensuring their hold on power as long as they
feel like Latinos first and Americans second. They have a vested interest in
non-assimilation.The Chamber of Commerce sees it as a supply and
demand issue. By having enough potential employees available, they can pick
those willing to work for less. There is no such thing as a job Americans are
unwilling to do, just pay scales driven low by abundant labor, making the rich
richer at the expense of the wage earner.On the Right it is seen as
a threat to the country. Nations/borders are often defined by language. Whenever
a country has a bipolar language you get civil unrest. Look what it is doing for
Ukraine! Or Israel, Ireland, Belgium, France, Georgia, etc. The Right has a
vested interest in a common national identity.Common ground?
Yes, LDS Liberal, who would have thought that one person would have shut down
the entire government to get his way? Who would have ever though that that
person would have jeopardized the health of every child on WIC or turned away
VETS from needed medical care, or blocked every visitor, from everywhere in the
world, some on a once-in-a-lifetime trip to visit the United States, just so
that the world would know that he was the President and that nobody had the
right to defund his ObamaCare - even though 59% of the people told the
Democrats, who were the only elected officials to vote for that bill, that they
did not want ObamaCare?Obama was the only person in America who
could order the shutdown of the government. ALL programs were fully funded
except ObamaCare. Not one Republican voted for ObamaCare and now not one
Democrat wants to be identified with ObamaCare - including the President - who
refuses to implement it as written and as signed.Where's
Obama's "common ground"?
Ford DeTreeseThe H-2a agriculture visa is unlimited, you fill out
one form for all the workers you need. I picked cherries in Utah county, the
farmer I worked for had no problem getting the youth in the area to work. They
also hired a Navajo family that worked there for years.Now, most
people here illegally have moved from the farms to the city. They have found
easier work for better pay in construction, service and hospitality industries.
Look at what happened after the amnesty of 1986, most farm workers, once they
had citizenship left. It's a fact, look it up. Amnesty has been
our policy for 25 years, it's failed in every respect. It's time for
enforcement. It's time to get tough on employers, force them to pay the
cost of deportation. That's my opinion.
MaverickWhat is your plan for the 12 million already here? They all lose their jobs and what? If you really think 12 million
would suddenly march home - oh boy you clearly don't understand how this
works do you?
Using illegal help and by passing US labor laws is not free market. By upsetting
the laws of supply and demand, business has fixed the market to cause low wages
and high unemployment. This would be the same as employees and customers being
able to pay what they want for a business goods, without prosecution. Vernon Briggs, a Cornell University labor economics professor stated: "The toleration of illegal immigration undermines all of our labor; it
rips at the social fabric. It's a race to the bottom. The one who plays by
the rules is penalized... a guest worker program guarantees wages will never go
up, and there is no way American citizens can compete with guest workers."
Agriculture is a red herring, as only 3% of those here illegally
work in it. Shame on those that encourage people to lie, steal and
covet to supply business with cheap labor. Things should stay the
same until we get leaders who are honest. Then we can deal with those here
illegally by requiring them to return home and come back legally. Fix the
problem, don't kick the can down the road.
Esquire"...only controlled open borders will work."
However, without the border being secured, by a fence and manpower, you
can't have "controlled" borders. Otherwise you end up with what we
have now, namely, legal and illegal immigration.LDS LiberalYour correct to a point. "....the lack of compromising isn't coming
from the Left... It's coming from both the Left and the Right.
Obama and (especially) Reid are as stubborn to work with as any of the
Republicans might be.
We're talking finding "common ground" with the same - my way, or
the highway - folks who shut-down the entire Federal Government over ONE issue
when they didn't get their way?Let's just say the lack of
finding "common ground" or the lack of compromising isn't coming
from the Left...
Oh please. Even the LA TIMES admits Obamas deportation numbers are fixed. He has
been counting returns at the border as being deported, unlike all the Presidents
before him who counted them separate. You want to solve the
immigration problem, then we need to start with a fair and balanced media that
is not campaigning for cheap illegal labor for it's advertisers. Then enforce the law, and make sure no one else dies in the desert or
separates their family because of greed encouraged by some of our leaders, the
business community, local church leaders and the media.
"By filling out the proper paperwork - farmers can get all the agricultural
workers they need."Oh please. This is the best you can come up
with. Tell this to the farmers who can't find workers except the illegal
"ford...." By filling out the proper paperwork - farmers can get all
the agricultural workers they need.Most of them don't bother to do
that. WHY should they? Immigration laws are seldom enforced anyway.
This is one issue where I don't understand fellow conservatives who refuse
to give an inch. This issue is minor compared to what the Founders had to deal
with. Yet they were able to find common ground on huge issues. If they had been
self righteous and intransigent, even when they had the correct position on a
huge issue like slavery, our nation may well have been short-lived. Instead
they humbled themselves -- and were divinely guided IMO.I believe
the objective should be a path to legal status, not citizenship. That will take
the wind out of the sails of the Ann Coulters who claim the sky would fall if
any kind of reform passes.". . . start dealing with reality and
stop living in Talk Radio Land." Well said.
Almost fifty years ago, when I was a youth, I earned summer money by picking
cherries for my grandfather, who owned a couple of small orchards. By the time I
had gone off to college and my dad was running the orchard, he couldn't get
local kids to pick the cherries. The only way the fruit got picked was by hiring
the "Mexicans," what they called illegal immigrants back in the 1980s.
That was more than 30 years ago. Nothing has changed in that time, except that
our reliance on illegal farm help has increased. So, come on,
conservatives. Let's hear your solution to this real-world dilemma.
What's your ideologically pure answer to this problem? Put all the fruit
farmers in jail? Let the fruit rot on the ground? Allow the farmers to just go
broke? Please, speak up.
wigglwagon:I am probably correct in assuming that neither you nor
your kids would take one of those agricultural jobs that has been filled by
illegal immigrants. I wouldn't either. And so it goes. We have an entire
industry that feeds America and many beyond its borders, but it can't get
American workers to take the jobs that make producing food possible. When conservatives start dealing with reality and stop living in Talk Radio
Land, maybe we can find some common ground. But not while they refuse to open
their eyes and see the world around them.
Common ground? Immigration reform is a thinly veiled attempt to once again
decimate the labor laws in this country by allowing a flood of cheap labor to
occupy jobs, either in the trades by Mexicans, or in the professions by Indians.
There is no other reason for the push, and exactly why I as a liberal am pushing
back. US companies love a supply of cheap exploitable labor, and they seem to
find media people either willingly or ignorantly supporting that desire.
Commmon ground?We can't get the Utah State Republicans who are
Mormons to follow the LDS Church's endorsement of the Utah compact!
You are talking common sense, Richard, and this demonstrates why the
'comprehensive reform' passed by the senate should not and probably
will not be passed. The problem areas should be attacked one at a time and the
one you have described, with temporary workers, is an important one. By
expanding the temporary visa program anyone working under that category can do
so legally and it brings accountability into the system rather than allowing the
illegals to operate under the radar undetected.The next step would
be to have strict enforcement on those employers that do not hire their
We already have a "common ground". The "common ground" is the
laws set for immigration into America. No one is allowed to come until invited.
That's the common ground. The uncommon ground is for anyone to thumb his
nose at those laws. Those who came here illegally knew they were entering
illegally, otherwise, they would have entered, when invited, with all the
necessary papers. They chose to sneak across. They knew what they were doing
was illegal.Send them home at their expense. If they complain that
their families would be broken up, then let the entire family leave as a unit.
Crime is crime. Mercy cannot rob justice until someone has paid the price.
Those calling for immigration reform are demanding that our laws NOT be observed
and that those who broke the law be rewarded for their crime.
There is no middle ground. Those on the right want to build a wall that is leak
proof, but that is impossible. They will get all weepy about the free market
system, and then express outrage when it works, which is what has happened with
immigration. The ongoing wave of immigration speaks to a number of issues.
Economic conditions in third world nations, unfilled jobs in the US (and other
Western countries - we aren't alone in this), and other market forces are
the cause. In a way, we should be grateful that there are so many hard working
people coming here who want to work and perform work that Americans don't
want to do. In the end, only controlled open borders will work. Make it easy
for people to enter, register and find work. We can make it reciprocal with the
other nations. But reality tells us that walls, tougher enforcement,
deportations and so forth do not work. People are willing to die to come here.
Face the facts.
But what happens when one side prefers obstructionism to finding a common
ground?Listen, the solution is so simple!Job creators?
You hire illegally: you lose your business license and are sent to prison for a
min of 5 years. Suddenly, we would find job creators employing legally.Instead, we see these altruistic beings continually thumb their noses at us
and trampling all over our laws. And they've bought off the GOP. The
GOP's plan does nothing to discourage illegal immigration. Deport them
today and they'll be back tomorrow!Put the pressure on the job
creators. They're the real criminals that no one seems to talk about. We
wouldn't have a problem with illegal immigration if job creators just
stopped hiring illegally.
Not when you're dealing with "All-or-Nothing" Tea-Publicans.
Finding common ground is easy. There is plenty of it.But, we want
it all. If we don't get everything we want, we wont even take the common
ground issues.We want to use the common ground, common sense pieces as
bargaining chips in an effort to pass our controversial parts.Welcome to partisanship in the 21st century.
The solution to the problem of illegal immigration is very simple and very
cheap.Congress should institute a bill mandating prison time without
parole for the employers of illegal workers. That would virtually end the
problem of illegal immigration. That would also put at least 8 million American
workers back on jobs and paying taxes instead of needing to collect unemployment
and welfare.Actually, it would not just be cheap. America would come
out hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars ahead. Just think, 8 million families off of
welfare and back to paying taxes like they used to do when America was enforcing