@LovelyDeseret"No there appears to be no difference. That is what we
are saying and no one is listening. "Why would we be for
same-sex marriage and against opposite-sex marriage? It's the recognition
of the good there is in marriage that leads us to push for same-sex marriage so
that they can have that too. What I want too (contrary to many on your side of
the political spectrum in this article comments, I'm a straight guy
who'd like to marry someday). "Look at marriage rates of
marrying age of those states with and without gay marriage."These states just have the attitude where people should marry if they want to
and if they want to stay single that's okay too. That's not the same
as wanting to destroy marriage unless to you marriage is the expectation that
everyone is supposed to be growing up, getting married, and making some
grandkids? If anything that detracts from that expectation is harmful to
marriage in your book, then I guess you're right by your definitions. I
just don't subscribe to your definitions.
@JayTee"Also, many of them recognize that most women are primarily
interested, either consciously or subconsciously, in a meal ticket so they can
play house and live a life of ease,"This is actually incredibly
insulting to stay-at-home moms. @U-tar"Most Women now days
are liberal, self centered, and do not know how to contribute to a
partnership."I've always questioned the matter of how
partnerships are supposed to work when one is considered the "head of the
household". But hey, I guess it works just like arguments over all-male
@ U-tarIf your comment was meant satirically, well done!If it was meant sincerely, and if it accurately reflects the expectations of
most males, then I think we've identified the problem! Males aren't
reluctant to marry. They're just reluctant to marry a REAL woman.
They're holding out for something that exists only in TV Land.
@schneeYou said;"There's a difference between wanting
gay people to have marriages too and wanting to destroy traditional marriage.
"No there appears to be no difference. That is what we are
saying and no one is listening. Look at marriage rates. Look at
marriage rates of marrying age of those states with and without gay marriage.
Look how it changes over time. How is marriage doing in
Massachusetts? In Denmark? Lowest state and country with regard to marriage.
RE: John Charity Spring "The left-wing will stop at nothing in its efforts
to destroy traditional marriage. This includes a relentless campaign in the
media which denigrates traditional marriage. "What? I honestly
don't know what you're talking about. I am about as left as you can
get, and I'm all for marriage and the family, as bulwarks against the
destruction wrought by the market. I guess you think leftists which
support same sex marriage are necessarily attacking traditional marriage. I
know of no leftists who see things that way.
Most Women now days are liberal, self centered, and do not know how to
contribute to a partnership. June cleaver is gone and will never be back. She
was smart, fun, clever, beautiful and easy going. She actually ran the show,
even though Ward thought he did. Women like her don't exist anymore, they
just aren't as nice nowadays.
"I believe that men resist marriage more than women primarily because they
believe marriage requires a substantial increase in their behavioral
commitment"Who in the real-world writes such gibberish?
It's not male "behavioral commitment" that's the problem.
Like so many other posters have said, the penalty of divorce is much more severe
for a man--and the decision to divorce can be made simply if one's wife
doesn't think she's haaapy enough.The problem appears to
actually be more about female "behavioral commitment." For those in the
LDS community, even president Monson admitted in the April 2011 general
conference that, "the vast majority of those seeking a "sealing
cancellation," previously known as "temple divorce," are
women..."I too have been married for 25 years and am active LDS.
But I'm not quite sure what to tell my sons. Yes, I want grand kids. But
the risk of not just the emotional pain of divorce but actual financial
impoverishment and separation from one's children due to a misandrist
family court-- all on one spouse's whim... it's increasingly just not
So true "Invisible Hand"....this conversation has been quite one sided.
I am a women (never divorced) and happy for it since I came from a family of
divorce. My father drank and had affairs (seem the two often go together) and
although not exclusively a man, it is often the man. In the past, women were
basically told "men will be men" and such so just "put up and shut
up". Since the more equality of women there has been more divorce because
many women will not stand for this type of behavior. I feel bad for the good men
that are taken through the "divorce ringer" just as I feel for women
like my mom (a good women that barely got child support and had to work hard to
get even that). This is very common for women who often take care of and have
more support of the children than the men do. But for good men that are
struggling, good luck to you and you can know that you feel like the majority of
women in the divorce situation. Everyone, treat others as you would like to be
Karen R.,I would actually argue that it is the current legal
system's fault. No-fault divorce isn't helping anyone except those
who seek to avoid accountability.Also, people respond to incentives.
When family law is applied with bias in favor of one gender, expect that gender
to take advantage. An attorney from New York explained to me once how their
family law is relatively gender-blind. The result? Divorce there is almost
50/50 in regards to the gender seeking divorce. Utah has a 90/10 disparity
between women/men. Now, that suggests that Utah men are either significantly
worse than men in New York (extremely unlikely with that extreme of a
difference) or local women are being incentivized by gender bias in family
law.FelisConcolor, thanks for the chuckle.
I think we as a society have given up on marriage. We need to do what Utah is
doing and fight to preserve it.
So far the primary reason offered here for men's reluctance to marry seems
to be, "It's the woman's fault." ("But my wife is
great!")I do agree in part with the tone of powerlessness,
though. Men have lost power as women have gained it. It's more equal now.
But this has meant INCREASED responsibility and INCREASED risk for men, so this
could factor into the reluctance.But there are still far more dead
beat dads than there are dead beat moms. And when a man fathers a child out of
wedlock, it remains easier for him to walk away without suffering
consequences...and go looking for another partner who will agree to sexual
relationships absent a formal commitment. We women need to leverage our power
better!The generation entering adulthood now has the benefit of the
results of the experiment. We've tested a lot of cultural norms over the
past few generations. I hope they take heed of the economic divide between the
married and the cohabitating, particularly when choosing to start a family. But
it seems clear that our divorce laws are a real problem for all concerned.
Invisible HandCertainly there are men who are abusive and cruel and
unworthy of their wives. But there are also plenty of women who get divorced
JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN, knowing that the courts and society will save them from
their poor choices.Like my former sister-in-law, who decided my
brother wasn't "righteous" enough for her and dumped him for the
younger neighbor. Admittedly, my other brother initiated his divorce, but that
was only after several years of physical and emotional abuse at the hands of his
mentally-ill wife. What both cases have in common is neither wife thought she
was being unreasonable or extreme.I find in discussions about
divorce there is an automatic effort to blame the man, regardless of the
circumstances. Women who get divorced are seen either as innocent victims or
brave heroines; men who get divorced are looked upon as wimpy failures or
violent sociopaths. As long as society continues to view marriage and divorce
through the outdated prism of the Victorian era, men will continue to avoid the
institution in increasing numbers.Shane333: You seem...familiar
@Shane333: I do not assume that every divorced man is abusive or that they
deserve to be divorced. I was merely taking issue with your implication that
because 90% of women initiate divorce that proves men are not to be blamed for
it. It's a two way street, and there are many good reasons that women
initiate 90% of divorces.
Invisible Hand,Why assume that every divorced man is abusive? I
made no accusations of criminal actions, merely addressed the risks. We live in
an age (and a state) of no fault divorce. That literally means that merely
waking up on the wrong side of the bed can be justification enough for someone
to divorce. That fact, combined with the consequences that men face in divorce,
are more than enough to give many men pause about committing to such risks.
I want to add that I am grateful for my dear wife, and can attest to the
benefits that I as a man receive because of her wonderful influence. I just
recognize that married men today have taken a significant leap of faith in
general considering the odds that are against us and the consequences we face
should any go wrong in the relationship.Basic economics suggest that
the greater the risks faced, the more hesitation the market will experience.
@Shane333: Just because divorce is initiated by the woman doesn't mean the
man did nothing wrong. He may be perfectly happy with his domestic abuse or porn
addiction but it's a deal killer for her, so she has to initiate the
divorce.This whole discussion feels a little one-sided. Where are
the perspectives of women? I also take issue with the happiness statistics
because people will assert that marriage makes men happier or healthier, but
maybe they have their causes and effects switched. Maybe happy, healthy, well
adjusted men are just more likely to marry. If that's the case then we need
to be concerned with why men seem to be less happy, healthy, and well adjusted
rather than focusing so much on marriage. Marriage will follow and add to a
happy life, but I don't think it will cause happiness.
Aside from the spectre of divorce and the obscene and unnecessary burden of
raising children, men are probably more acutely aware of the benefits they will
lose in marriage. Don't get me wrong, but if marriage isn't for you,
don't get married.
I really think men are more weary now because they've had years to see what
goes on around them. Many of them have had sad experiences with divorces or bad
marriages, either growing up, dealing with personally, or just looking around
them. Also, many of them recognize that most women are primarily interested,
either consciously or subconsciously, in a meal ticket so they can play house
and live a life of ease, not fully aware that successful marriages actually
require 100% effort from both participants, and a solid awareness of reality.
It's fun to talk about the higher, more ethereal facets of life, when
casual observation reveals that most marriages fail due to basic physical and/or
@John Charity Spring If only we all had the clarity you seem to
While I agree with everything said and can see the advantage of being married in
my own life, we should look at the root causes of why men aren't marrying.
I think it boils down to a variety of disincentives. They range from easy
access to sex outside of marriage, rising pornography access, and serious
repercussions should the marriage ever end. I've read and seen
fathers kept from children, baseless accusations thrown out as a typical divorce
ploy, no accountability to meet visitation, and a variety of other issues that
men are powerless to address. Helen Smith's book, "Men on Strike"
shows a variety of those disincentives.I think the answer is to
better portray the advantages of marriage as seen in this article and to address
the institutional disincentives men have to participate in society. It does our
society no good to make marriage worse for 1/2 the population.
There ARE real benefits to men from marriage. Those benefits are offset,
however, by the threat of divorce as FelisConcolor points out. Approx. 40% of first marriages fail (60+% of second marriages fail) and
according to my neighbor who works in family law here in Utah, almost 90% of
those divorces in Utah are initiated by women. Consider what that means for a
moment. A man doesn't have to be doing anything wrong and can still be
effectively reduced to indentured servitude for a decade or more simply because
his wife may desire greener pastures.When it's almost a 50/50
coin toss to end up in indentured servitude and lose half or more of one's
assets, marriage has become a significant risk. It is no wonder that men
endorse the concept of marriage but are averse to the modern legal risks
@John Charity Spring"The left-wing will stop at nothing in its efforts
to destroy traditional marriage. "There's a difference
between wanting gay people to have marriages too and wanting to destroy
traditional marriage. "The left has an open and stated agenda of
promoting wanton sexuality and drug use."Actually no, we just
encourage people to be safe if they engage in sex, and think that the war on
drugs hasn't helped with anything. That doesn't mean "hey
everybody do drugs". "I issue my strongest possible
condemnation of those leftists who are seeking to destroy all that made America
great." I wonder if my health insurance covers injuries related
to excessive eye-rolling...
Many men are afraid to marry or remarry because in today's society they are
not allowed to be men. Women more and more expect to call all the shots in a
relationship. So many guys I know treat their wives with kindness and respect
but you see how their wives treat them and you wonder "Why be married?"
I am fortunate enough to be married to the kindest woman I have ever met.
Remarried for almost 2years and I know how good I have it. I dated 8 women after
my divorce 12years ago and was remarried for 3 months 6 years ago. I vowed that
mutual kindness and respect would be at the top of the list. When I hear women
complain about the lack of good men I smile. We are here. They just want a
They needed a research study to determine this?Pssst: Does anyone
really want to know why men don't want to get married nowadays? You could
ask any single guy, and he'll tell you in one word: Divorce.There is not a man in America who has not seen a brother, father, uncle,
cousin, or friend go through the Kafkaesque wringer of modern divorce, where
courts routinely dismiss male concerns and needs and treat men solely as
paychecks with pants.Where a refusal of a father's
court-ordered visitation by a mother is dismissed as a mere inconvenience, but a
failure by a father to pay child support results in garnishment of wages or jail
time.I've been happily married for over a quarter-century, but
if I were single again I'd think twice before getting married again. The
benefits, however real they are, simply do not justify the risks anymore. For
most men being single isn't that bad, especially given the alternatives.As comedian Ron White once said, "The next time I think about
getting married, I'll just go out and find a woman I hate and buy her a
It should surprise no one that the younger generation of men is reluctant to
marry. How could it be otherwise with the constant barrage from the left-wing?
The left-wing will stop at nothing in its efforts to destroy
traditional marriage. This includes a relentless campaign in the media which
denigrates traditional marriage. The left has an open and stated
agenda of promoting wanton sexuality and drug use. Too many younger men have
fully accepted this pernicious promotion. I issue my strongest
possible condemnation of those leftists who are seeking to destroy all that made
America great. Their disregard for the Constitution is nothing short of shameful