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Brad Rock: Will BYU go the way of smaller LDS sports programs?

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  • iNKSpot Wilsonville, OR
    May 18, 2014 7:00 a.m.

    The upside of BYU-Idaho's decision is that its football team remains undefeated.

  • InspectorC Wasatch Front, UT
    May 15, 2014 11:13 a.m.

    I'm neither a Ute nor a Cougar fanatic. I am a active Utah Mormon. That said, right up front....

    The LDS Church totally needs to DROP all intercollegiate sports at the Y; and the sooner the better. Why do BYU fans incessantly think they have such a great program? They are a *blip* on the radar of the collegiate sports world. A high percentage of American sports fans have NO IDEA what BYU even is!

    All you Y fanatics who think BYU sports brings this "invaluable" amount of missionary exposure and goodwill to the church are misguided. And all this hype about the BYUtv Studios yada, yada, yada. Hey, the ONLY people who watch Y sports on BYUtv are Mormon BYU fans. That does NOT do a single thing (per se) to build up missionary opportunities worldwide. What a hoax!

    If the church eliminated sports at the Y, and applied the million$ spent on sports instead to TRUE missionary work, community outreach programs, and church PR, I bet worldwide convert numbers would GO UP TENFOLD!!

    And U fans are arrogant and misguided as well.

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    May 13, 2014 1:33 p.m.

    @NavalVet "You're just jealous they yours was not."

    I am not jealous at all of Utah. I have stated in the comments section of other articles (and I'll state it again here) that I think Utah is a perfect fit for the PAC 12, and that I think it is great that they have the opportunity to build up their profile on a bigger stage.

    I do not think BYU is a good fit for the PAC at all, and I am very glad that the Cougars are independent.

    I just enjoy getting the facts straight, especially when U are the king at distorting them.

    And thanks again for that Sports Illustrated article, it was very enlightening. What's that expression: "hoisted on your own petard"?

    Seems to fit in nicely here.

    Go Cougars!

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    May 13, 2014 1:29 p.m.

    @NavalVet "As far as your counterpoint that Utah's invitation was "contingent on what Texas did AND what A&M did," I already showed you. Texas' decision had no bearing on Utah's invitation."

    Nope, the only thing that U have showed is a random statement (by the same reporter who thought Notre Dame's olympic sports were going to the Big XII, no less) that Utah would receive an invite IF (emphasis on the IF) Texas A&M backed out of the deal. But A&M never backed out of the deal...all of the teams decided to stay in the Big XII, which opened the way for Utah to enter the PAC as Plan B (and Plan B are ESPN's words, not mine)

    I think it is also funny that U fail to see that the Chip Brown quote U are using just reinforces the fact that Utah was a back-up plan. "IF Texas A&M backed out, Utah would be in as the 16th member." "IF Texas backed out, Utah would be in as the 12th member."

    Utah was never a guaranteed "IN". It was contingent on others decisions.

    Backup plan.

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    May 13, 2014 1:24 p.m.

    @NavalVet "You seem to be focused on looking for the code word "Plan A", and in not finding it, you think that Utah didn't fall in."

    The only reason I'm focused on looking for the code word "Plan A" is because that is what you said Chip Brown had reported. Or maybe you forgot this statement U made:

    "Not according to Chip Brown, who was Mr. Johnny-on-the-spot throughout the whole Pac-10/Big 12 merger proposal. Per Chip Brown, when the Pac-10 was ready to send out official invitations, their "Plan A" was to bring in Texas, Tx. Tech, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, and Utah..."

    U have since failed to support that statement, nor have U provided a quote where Utah was EVER part of "Plan A", as U put it.

    I, however, have showed where Utah was specifically mentioned as part of Plan B...by ESPN, no less.

    U were a back-up plan. ESPN knows it, Chip Brown knew it, everyone knows it...except U.

    Ah well...U can believe whatever U want. I just wanted to set the facts straight.

    Go Cougars!

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    May 13, 2014 1:11 p.m.

    truecoug1:

    "Nowhere does Chip Brown say that Utah was any part of Plan A of the original PAC 10 expansion. They were always the back-up plan, contingent on what Texas did AND what A&M did."

    You seem to be focused on looking for the code word "Plan A", and in not finding it, you think that Utah didn't fall in. Okay then, please show me a quote that specifically used the code word "Plan A" where Utah is NOT in it. It goes both ways you know.

    As far as your counterpoint that Utah's invitation was "contingent on what Texas did AND what A&M did," I already showed you. Texas' decision had no bearing on Utah's invitation. Had Texas accepted the Pac-10's invitation, the Pac-10 would have then moved on to extend invitations to TT, OU, Kansas, and Utah. A&M was never going to go to Pac-10. They therefore where not a "viable option". And if they weren't a "viable option", and Utah was, and Utah had been in the discussion all along...

    ...our invitation was inevitable.

    You're just jealous they yours was not.

  • maq West Valley, Utah
    May 13, 2014 1:08 p.m.

    I'd like to see ESPN do a sportsnation poll on how many people across the country believes utah deserved/earned their invite into the PAC 10 and how many people across the country believe BYU is a better fit as a BIG 5 school. I have a feeling I already know the answer. (the university of who?tah?)

  • Tajemnica West Valley, Utah
    May 13, 2014 1:05 p.m.

    @NavalVet

    I love how you try to twist and distort facts to try making your opinions hold up. I sure hope you are not a lawyer because as soon as the jury sees the real evidence with no distortion, you'll lose your case. Just see truecoug1's last post. Either way I appreciate your 10 or so comments trying to defend yourself against people seeing through your hypocrisy and distortion, it gives me something funny to laugh about on a slow work day.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    May 13, 2014 12:37 p.m.

    I think Sunday play for the NCAA is here to stay and is only going to grow bigger year after year. Not even Notre Dame cares about sunday play so BYU finds itself alone amoung D1 schools for sunday play. BYU athletics is shrinking both in its ability to compete and its ability to keep up with the big schools financially. Look at the Football program - a once proud national power is now a has - been which has to scrap to find any bowl at all to play in - even the smaller no-name bowls. The Y is locked out of a major football conference for good due to Sunday play and I doubt they can continue to be relivant for long. Home football games are pretty much a joke anymore with no big school willing to sign any sort of deal to play in Provo. I could see BYU dropping Football and sticking with Basketball , track and baseball for a while but even that is hard to justify a scholarship going forward.

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    May 13, 2014 12:29 p.m.

    @NavalVet

    There were a couple of things that the SI article showed.

    1) Contrary to what you have been saying, the SI article right out of the chute says that "No one in the Pac-10 will say it aloud, but a religious school like BYU isn't getting an invitation." Religion did have a part to play in the invite, whether you want to admit it or nor. EVERYONE'S perception of the PAC 12 is that they would not invite a religious school.

    Just ask Baylor fans about that one.

    2) The article itself is just examining potential candidates for PAC expansion back in 2010, and lists Utah, Colorado, and BYU all as viable candidates based primarily on television markets.

    In other words, this is the author's opinion. NO WHERE does it state that the PAC was seriously considering Utah or Colorado for expansion at that point. In fact, at one point in the article we find this little gem: "But the Seattle Times' Bud Withers wrote this week of a conversation with a Pac-10 source who said a previous cost-benefit analysis showed adding [Utah and Colorado] "didn't really do much.""

    Backup plan. 'Nuff said.

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    May 13, 2014 11:14 a.m.

    @NavalVet "[Texas] officials knew deep down Texas A&M wasn't coming to the Pac-10...And now Scott and Weiberg were looking to dump Oklahoma State in favor of Kansas. If A&M was a no-show, the Pac-10 would add Utah."

    Again, where does it say that Utah was Plan A? It doesn't...it says that the PAC 10 would add Utah IF Texas A&M was a no-show...again reinforcing the fact that Utah was a backup plan.

    Nowhere does Chip Brown say that Utah was any part of Plan A of the original PAC 10 expansion. They were always the back-up plan, contingent on what Texas did AND what A&M did.

    And besides, this is all coming from the guy who reported that Notre Dame's olympic sports would be headed to the Big XII.

    Not the most credible source.

    P.S. That SI article was a bad one to reference for U. It lists Colorado and Utah as potential expansion candidates only AFTER it dismisses BYU because "a religious school like BYU isn't getting an invitation." Then it mentions Utah and BYU as potential candidates later on. Nice job.

  • let's roll LEHI, UT
    May 13, 2014 11:07 a.m.

    @ Naval Vet

    I'd think you'd be reticent to continue to cite the SI article...it certainly casts Utah and the Pac-10 in a bad light.

    Since the Pac-10 didn't get Texas, SI's opinion is that expansion failed (i.e. wasn't "worthwhile").

    You and I may disagree, but then again, we're just us...they're SI.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    May 13, 2014 11:01 a.m.

    truecoug1 (cont.):

    As SI had reported Utah on the Pac-10's radar as far back as Feb. 2010, before TT, OU, OSU, or KU were ever mentioned, it's clear where Utah sat on the Pac-10's wish list. Here's another quote from that SI article:

    "By adding Utah (and BYU, if it's a package deal) and/or Colorado, the Pac-10 would get good, competitive athletic programs and fairly large TV markets."

    See that? That right there showed that the cougars' ONLY chance of getting into an elite conference would be...

    ...via Utah's coattails.

    And that's pretty much the same way Tx. Tech and Kansas would have received their invite. And of course, OSU was never going to get in. But sadly for our little brother, Utah's coattails weren't long enough for you to scoot in on. Texas' on the other hand, was long enough for TT and KU.

    So for all the "chuckling" and "historical revisions" by our jealous little brother, nothing can be taken away from the fact that Utah was ALWAYS on the Pac-10's expansion radar (since 2009), and preferred over TT, KU, OSU, and Baylor.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    May 13, 2014 10:51 a.m.

    truecoug1:

    "Please cite your source where Chip Brown said 'the Plan A for the PAC 12 was to bring in Texas, Tx Tech, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, and Utah'. I'll be waiting with bated breath for that one."

    On Jun. 15, 2010, Chip Brown wrote, "How the Big 12 came back to life". Here are some quotes:

    "[Texas] officials knew deep down Texas A&M wasn't coming to the Pac-10...And now Scott and Weiberg were looking to dump Oklahoma State in favor of Kansas. If A&M was a no-show, the Pac-10 would add Utah."

    The article was very clear that A&M wasn't interested. Period. So that means that A&M wasn't really an option for Scott and the Pac-10, and, neither Texas' nor Oklahoma's decisions to migrate west to the Pac-10, or remain in place in the Big 12 had no impact whatsoever on Utah's invitation. Therefore, "Plan A" WAS Texas, Tx. Tech, Okla, Kansas, Colo, and Utah.

    P.S.: Sports Illustrated wrote the article "To make expansion worthwhile, Pac-10 must try to land Texas", back in Feb. 2010. Utah and CU were mentioned. TT, Okla, OSU, and Kansas were not.

  • JmThms Henderson, NV
    May 13, 2014 10:36 a.m.

    DonO:

    "Garth Hall, as quoted in the article, has it right. Think of the good that could be done if the millions poured into BYU sports were redirected to education. True, some athletes learn valuable life lessons by competing, but in the final analysis all of it's "just a game"...just entertainment with little lasting positive effect."

    Yes, but this is true for ALL shools and ALL programs. So is the University of Utah going to redirect their athletic money to their esteemed academic programs? Or are you going to argue that the University of Utah doesn't have the level of academicians and students to take advantage of such redirection of money?

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    May 13, 2014 10:32 a.m.

    @NavalVet

    Heck, even ESPN called Utah "Plan B", from the article entitled "Scott: Deal with Big 12 wasn't assumed": "The next part of Plan B fell into place hours after Scott spoke to the AP, when the Pac-10 announced it had invited Utah to become its 12th member."

    Utah was the back-up plan. U were always the back-up plan. I think U are the only one who believes that Utah was any part of "Plan A" for the original PAC 12 expansion.

    But then I've always thought that the Utah "fan" (or is it "man"? Or just "BYU hater"?) to be the most imaginative/delusional of college football fans.

    Glad to know I was right :)

    Go Cougars!

  • JmThms Henderson, NV
    May 13, 2014 10:31 a.m.

    SoonerUte:

    "Look no further than this state to see how the program divides, rather than unites. I know many LDS football fans who dislike BYU football. With such division, how is it a missionary tool?"

    But using your logic the entire Church should shut down, right? After all, there are many 'anti' Mormons, right? The Church divides with respect to pro and con, right? So just as BYU divides the state in terms of like/dislike, that has nothing to do having athletic programs or not. No school really wants to be disliked, so is it in the mission statement of the University of Utah to engender dislike among so many state residents? No? Well then, why not just go ahead get rid of all of those defending teams? Funny how that works.

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    May 13, 2014 10:25 a.m.

    @NavalVet "Not according to Chip Brown, who was Mr. Johnny-on-the-spot throughout the whole Pac-10/Big 12 merger proposal. Per Chip Brown, when the Pac-10 was ready to send out official invitations, their "Plan A" was to bring in Texas, Tx. Tech, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, and Utah..."

    Lol, I can't believe U STILL believe this charade. Please cite your source where Chip Brown said "the Plan A for the PAC 12 was to bring in Texas, Tx Tech, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, and Utah". I'll be waiting with bated breath for that one.

    The ONLY thing Chip Brown said was that the PAC was prepared to invite Utah IF Texas A&M bailed on the plan and bolted for the SEC (which didn't happen, they ended up staying in the Big XII).

    So your Chip Brown quote only reinforces the fact that Utah was considered as a backup-plan. U got into the PAC 12 because Texas declined their invitation and the Big XII remained intact, leaving the PAC at 11 teams, and needing a 12th to be eligible for a CC.

    Enter Utah.

  • JmThms Henderson, NV
    May 13, 2014 2:38 a.m.

    "The mwc and wac and sun belt and schools like that(including byu and Utah state) will be able to form their own playoffs or do whatever they want
    But we ARE moving towards the power conferences fully separating form the lesser schools."

    Hilarious! Way to go Chris B! You don't disappoint. Nice try but, of course, no cigar. Trying to fit the square peg in a round hole mantra of 'BYU is one of those lesser schools' just doesn't stand the slightest of honest scrutiny. The lower half of most of your so called 'power conferences' just don't hold a candle to BYU, and that comparison stands true just about across the board. Try as you or anyone else may, you just can't escape that fact.

  • The Deuce Livermore, CA
    May 12, 2014 11:54 p.m.

    Unfortunately, where there is smoke, there is fire. Based on what I conitnually see with BYU athletics, especially the football coaching staff and team, this once great athletic program is making a slow exit out the back door. Yes, there is alot of talk about great things to come. But there has yet to be seen some real leadership taken with the current football team coaching staff when this was promised by the AD last year. The programs, for the most part, are all slowly melting away. Yes, there are some very good teams at BYU. But the handwriting is on the wall. It won't take more than about 5 years to see this take place.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    May 12, 2014 7:51 p.m.

    let's roll:

    It was reported right here in the DNews that OU and OSU submitted a petition to join the Pac-12, and had been denied. The Pac-12 didn't want OSU, and they weren't thrilled with Tx. Tech either, but at least the Red Raiders had submitted their application (later approved) to join the ranks of the Tier-1 Research institutions.

  • let's roll LEHI, UT
    May 12, 2014 6:57 p.m.

    @ Navel Vet

    Hope you're well and that Philly is treating you well.

    Both sides were spinning pretty hard back in 2011, so it's doubtful we'll ever know who really turned down whom, but with the clarity (and candor) of the passage of time, a PAC-12 writer (in the biggest paper in Portland) said this at the end of last year:

    Pac-12 commissioner Larry Scott made a bold push to expand to 16 teams in 2011 by adding Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State.

    You are probably just as likely correct as the writer, but I don't think there's any credible debate about the premise within which I made that statement...those purported experts who claim the end game for college football is 4 conferences with 16 teams haven't made any credible argument that any one of the 5 so called "power conferences" is ever going to vote to disband.

    All 5 are sure they're the best conference...nobody thinks they're number 5 of 5. And the Big12 with Texas at the helm is certainly never going to vote to disband.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    May 12, 2014 5:55 p.m.

    CordonBleu (cont.):

    Throughout the whole run-up to the Pac-10's expansion, Utah's 2 BCS bowl trophies were cited frequently as assets. Also cited was Utah's postseason record, as well as it's reputation as being a "giant killer" by being the "winningest team" vs. BCS schools from amongst the non-AQ leagues.

    So there's your "athletic" citation.

    Now YOUR turn...

    "Oklahoma State was invited to join the PAC 12, but the Cowboys have the exact same High Research classification as BYU."

    Please cite the source that OSU was ever invited to join the Pac-10. Because I submit to you, they never were. The ONLY Big 12 teams invited to join the Pac-10 were Texas and CU. The Pac-10 was "prepared" to invite Oklahoma, Tx. Tech, and Kansas, but ONLY if Texas agreed to the Pac-10's terms for admission. And the Longhorns did not. And that's really neither here nor there since per Chip Brown, OSU wasn't going to get the invitation anyway.

    Additionally, OSU (along with OU) applied for Pac-12 membership in 2011, but was denied.

    The truth is, the cougars weren't invited for every reason I'd already provided...

    ...and your version never happened.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    May 12, 2014 5:48 p.m.

    CordonBleu:

    "Talk about made up folklore... cite the official PAC 12 source that states that playing in a BCS game was a requirement for being invited to the conference or that having the "winningest" record versus 'BCS' teams was a requirement."

    Sports Illustrated did an article about 4-yrs back ["To make expansion worthwhile, Pac-10 must try to land Texas", Feb. 12,2010]. In it, it cites, "The Pac-10 types keep talking about academic and cultural fits...Schools roughly in the region that feature the athletics, academic and cultural prerequisites. Not many schools qualify."

    There is no direct quote that says the Pac-10 required a BCS bowl, but there have been many quoting a trifecta of "academic" (i.e. Tier-1 Research institution), "athletic" (strong Football program...this WAS a "Football decision" ya know), and "cultural" (i.e. free speech, academic freedom) metrics. Utah's BCS bowls didn't hurt our "athletic" profile, and you better believe it "enhanced" it. Just like TCU's enhanced THEIR candidacy for the Big 12 after they had already stated they weren't looking for any new teams from inside Texas.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    May 12, 2014 5:26 p.m.

    let's roll:

    "Texas and Oklahoma have already turned the PAC-12 down once, they'd have no trouble doing it again."

    That's not entirely accurate. Texas actually turned down the Conference of Champions 3 times that I know of.

    The first came in 1994, when the Pac-10 tried to add Texas and Colorado. Texas decided to accept the Big 8's invitation instead, and CU opted to stay put.

    The second came in 2010, when the Pac-10 again attempted to negotiate with Texas and Colorado (along with Tx. Tech, Okla, Kan, and Utah), but was only successful in getting Utah and Colorado.

    The third came one year later, after the Pac-12 noticed some vulnerability with the Big 12 via the SEC's raid of A&M and Mizzou.

    Oklahoma on the other hand never turned down the Pac-10/12. They never received and invitation. In 2010, the Pac-10 invited Texas, but when Texas declined, no other Big 12 South were extended an offer.

    Furthermore, in 2011, both Oklahoma and Oklahoma St. applied for Pac-12 membership...

    ...but were both denied.

    So it wasn't OU that declined the Pac-12. It was the Pac-12 who declined OU.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    May 12, 2014 4:39 p.m.

    3grandslams:

    "Remember "reds" you were a backup plan to a failed invite."

    Not according to Chip Brown, who was Mr. Johnny-on-the-spot throughout the whole Pac-10/Big 12 merger proposal. Per Chip Brown, when the Pac-10 was ready to send out official invitations, their "Plan A" was to bring in Texas, Tx. Tech, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, and Utah...

    ...but ONLY if Texas agreed the Pac-10's admission terms. Which the Longhorns did not. So that brought the Pac-10 to "Plan B"...invite Utah and Colorado ONLY.

    So while the Pac-10 eventually went with their "Plan B", it wouldn't have mattered to Utah, as our invitation was inevitable anyway.

    And for what it's worth, I'm glad Texas declined, because had they accepted, Utah would have been put in the Pac-16 East division. And that would have meant regular travel to places like Lawrence, Norman, and Lubbock. In the Pac-12 South, the worst trip we have to make is to Tucson. Plus, we have more alumni in the Pac-12's footprint than in KS, OK, or TX.

    Go Utes!

  • CordonBleu Park City, UT
    May 12, 2014 4:14 p.m.

    Naval Vet

    Talk about made up folklore... cite the official PAC 12 source that states that playing in a BCS game was a requirement for being invited to the conference or that having the "winningest" record versus "BCS" teams was a requirement.

    Oklahoma State was invited to join the PAC 12, but the Cowboys have the exact same High Research classification as BYU.

    The truth is, BYU wasn't invited for one reason, and one reason only, religious bigotry on the part of a couple of PAC 10 schools.

  • let's roll LEHI, UT
    May 12, 2014 4:13 p.m.

    @ Mormon Ute

    You are right, there is no requirement that a team win a conference championship or a conference championship game to be in the playoff. So the way is clear to have the SEC fill all 4 spots.

    The same Big12 that "doesn't care" about a championship game has filed a request with the NCAA to allow it to have one despite the fact that it only has 10 teams and the rules require 12. Hardly seems consistent with the idea that they're completely satisfied with their path to the playoff.

    We should all be smart enough to understand it's all spin. They say they don't care about a championship game because they can't have one. Trust me, if they get their waiver, they'll have one.

    If they don't get their waiver they'll again say they're happy with the status quo at the same time they're running the numbers on what a 12 team league would look like.

    Spin is all about managing expectations. The Big12 doesn't want to paint itself into a corner with respect to a championship game or expansion, so they say what you'd expect them to say.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    May 12, 2014 1:37 p.m.

    "he viability of Cougar sports wouldn’t even be a discussion, except that Sunday play keeps intervening, in one sport or another. That’s at least one major reason BYU wasn’t accepted into the Pac-12." -- Brad Rock

    Nope. That's just cougar folklore that can't be substantiated anywhere outside of cougar blogs such as cougarboard or DeepShadesofBlue, because those are the only rags that permit "made up" facts and conclusions.

    The "major reason(s)" the cougars didn't get invited into the Pac-10 was because they (1) are not a Tier-1 Research" institution, (2) had never busted the BCS (this WAS a "football" decision ya know, and merely "quest"-ing for it doesn't count), (3) had a poor record vs. teams from BCS leagues, (4) they stamp out free speech and academic freedom (thus sanctioned by the AAUP), and (5) their big brother on the Hill WAS a "Tier-1 Research" institution, who HAD busted the BCS (twice, and won both times), was the WINNINGEST program vs. BCS league schools from within the non-AQ ranks, and PROMOTE free speech and academic freedom (thus NOT sanctioned by the AAUP).

  • Mormon Ute Kaysville, UT
    May 12, 2014 1:16 p.m.

    Duckhunter,

    As an LDS Ute fan I enjoy the rivalry and enjoy seeing BYU succeed in athletics, unless of course they are playing my Utes. I think you are missing the fact that this is athletics and not religion we are talking about. Perhaps you have been listening to Coach Mendenhall too much.

    In any case, Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin played running back for the Utes football team and was an avid fan until his death. So much so that the Utes wore his initials on their helmets the entire season after his death. So I think I'm in good company supporting the sports teams of my alma mater.

    As far as the divisiveness goes, I tried to be complimentary to a BYU fan about their accomplishments and was told "don't say things you don't mean." So you can't blame the divisiveness on just the Ute fans.

  • Mormon Ute Kaysville, UT
    May 12, 2014 12:54 p.m.

    Let's roll,

    There is no requirement currently that the teams in the playoff be conference champions or win a conference championship game. The Big 12 has said they are happy staying at their current size and don't care about a championship game. So that part of your argument isn't valid.

    I do hope they eventually expand the playoff to at least 8 teams and require each to be a conference champion. If they go to 16 teams, there would be room for conference champions and some at large spots. That's what I'd like to see. I think separating off the biggest conferences only moves them more toward the pros and I hope it doesn't happen.

  • karlmalone Syracuse, UT
    May 12, 2014 11:36 a.m.

    One advantage is a good fan base for football and basketball; the teams travel well on the road and at bowl/championship games.

    There cause for nervousness. The pressure to play on Sunday will continue to grow. If BYU draws a line in that sand it may be the end. Independence is working well because of the lucrative ESPN contract, but that is sort of an eggs in one basket scenario. If ESPN loses interest then it will be up to the donors to rescue the program. They might do it but it won't be easy. Also I'd be nervous about the place of sports in the LDS priority list. We've heard much from LDS leaders condemning the acrimonious words and feelings that LDS people feel both in defense of and against the program. At some point, they may feel that the benefits don't outweigh the spiritual costs. Finally, when Elder Bednar was President of BYU-I, he oversaw the dismantling of the program. It's apples vs. potatoes as the article suggests, but if Elder Bednar becomes President Bednar, I'm wondering if that will be a catalyst to the end.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    May 12, 2014 9:48 a.m.

    @Wookie:

    Max Hall's wife had beer and profanity thrown at her by ute fans.

    How is this behavior the faoult of Max Hall?

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    May 12, 2014 8:44 a.m.

    The playoff will never stay at 4 teams as long as the SEC exists. The year Bama & LSU played each other for the NC, who were you going to leave out in a 4 team format? I agree (again) with lets roll. I would only add that the SEC usually DOES have 2 of the top 4 teams, not just because fans think it. FSU finally broke through but how many other conference champions has the SEC chewed up and spit out? Oregon, Ohio State, Texas...all have felt that sting. The SEC won't stand for having a top 4 team left out in the name of conference parity.

  • Wookie Omaha, NE
    May 12, 2014 7:55 a.m.

    I would agree that BYU athletics is a good missionary tool if the players and fans practiced what was preached. Think of Max Hall and his tirade. How many non-LDS people were interested in a school/faith that did very little to chastise his behavior and excusing it for youth. People aren't ignorant to such attitudes. The University of Nebraska, a secular school, is considered by many as having the best college football fans. I can attest after having attending games at the U (wont take my girls there ever again due to the profanities used) the Y (hypocrasy at its finest) and Nebraska, as fans at Nebraska are cordial and cheer for the game and for the opposing team when they witness a great play.

    Act and behave the part and credibility will be yours.

    Go UTES!

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    May 11, 2014 11:38 p.m.

    If it means giving up on your principles, I would rather BYU give up their sports programs.

  • let's roll LEHI, UT
    May 11, 2014 11:31 p.m.

    History demonstrates why a four team playoff is unsustainable.

    If the four team playoff had been in place the last 3 years, the SEC would have had two of the four spots every year if the teams were selected by end of season (pre-bowl) rankings.

    That means at least two "power conferences" would have been shut out of the playoff every year and two years ago when Notre Dame was ranked #2, three "power conferences" would have been shut out.

    Those conferences can't let that happen and still have any credibility with their fans or TV partners that their conference championship means anything if it doesn't result in an automatic berth in the playoff. They'll push for an 8 team tournament.

    BTW, I've lived in the South and can assure you that SEC fans believe they have at least two of the top four teams in the country every year. And since pollsters agree, the selection committee is likely going to have to ignore a top four SEC team if they want 4 conferences represented. Let that happen once or twice and you'll see how quickly the SEC lobbies hard for an 8 team tournament. .

  • esodije ALBUQUERQUE, NM
    May 11, 2014 10:06 p.m.

    Like it or not, intercollegiate sports creates "brand" loyalty for universities. I have self-identified much more as a BYU fan since the school went independent in football and joined the WCC for basketball. Why? Because I get to watch most of their games on BYUtv, to the extent they aren't on ESPN. It would be terrifically disappointing for BYU to join the Big 12 if it meant a return to the bad old "the mtn" days and not being able to watch them play on TV. Utah acts like its invitation to join the PAC-12 did anything but devalue the coin of the realm--ask recent Nobel Peace Prize winners what Obama's winning it in 2009 did for its prestige--as though permanent mediocrity in a big-name conference means anything in the end. BYU and the church have bigger fish to fry; I just hope the powers don't spoil the brand chasing after the fool's gold of football national championships.

  • Scores Idaho Falls, ID
    May 11, 2014 9:23 p.m.

    Here's what I see happening. BYU builds a fantastic basketball practice facility. BYU recruits come from all over the world. BYU basketball builds a brand never seen in the intermountain area before and they finally arrive as consistent NCAA participants and make the final four...not just once but a number of times. BYU football goes on a winning streak like they did in the 80s with a national schedule of top tier competition and because of that success, they make the playoffs and force the decision to expand the playoffs to include at least eight teams. Exposure to BYU and the church goes viral and church membership expands wider that your wildest imagination. It doesn't matter what anybody else does, BYU is just concerned about what they can do and that means winning games, and as long as they do that, everything else will take care of itself.

  • CO Ute PARKER, CO
    May 11, 2014 9:00 p.m.

    Do I think BYU will follow the trend of the smaller church schools and drop athletics? Easy answer - NO. Lots of support for athletics and lots of TV exposure for the school. Why drop out?

    What I did find interesting after reading all 59 previous posts, was the commentary from a few the Y fans. I didn't see a single post, including those by Chris B, that had any derogatory comments about BYU. I did see at least a half dozen posts from Y fans that felt a need to bash Utah. I'm sure you are all very proud that you can come to a BYU article and focus your energy on trying to trash another school. Especially funny was the comment that lots of U fans must be waiting for the Y to drop sports, yet there wasn't a single comment with that thought.

  • Swoop Salt Lake City, UT
    May 11, 2014 8:56 p.m.

    "Most experts think there will eventually be 4 super conferences with 16 teams each, for a total of 64 relevant teams. Guess how many power conference teams there are currently? 65"

    Getting to 64 is easy; just dump one of the bottom-dwelling newcomers who were only invited so the conference could hold a CCG.

  • BYU Joe MISSION VIEJO, CA
    May 11, 2014 8:51 p.m.

    I hate this lame article and topic - BYU continues to spend lots of money on sports programs, TV and contracts to broadcast their games. Athletics are not going anywhere and this conversation is just silly.

    If a Sunday game becomes a problem then you will see BYU teams do what they have already done - forfeit the game and move on.

    As much as I love my school we still are years away from being in the Big Leagues but if we win games and then no doors will be shut for this schools teams.

    Three straight National Titles in Rugby, This is no small school.

  • JSB Sugar City, ID
    May 11, 2014 8:43 p.m.

    @ BlueCoug. "The positive PR that the church gets through BYU sports, nationally and internationally, is immeasurable and fits in well with the mission of the institution and the church." Do you have any statistics to back up your claim? When was the last time you heard about Harvard's football team? Yet, they seem to have pretty good PR. Employment recruiters don't come to BYU because of their football team. If the emphasis placed on athletics at BYU was put into science, business, humanities, languages, etc. it would provide better PR than the present athletic program. Also, I doubt the university would have to keep explaining about athletes with honor code violations which doesn't, by the way, provide very good PR.

  • kayeauneaux Sweetwater, TX
    May 11, 2014 7:44 p.m.

    The "fans" here who claim to have stopped giving money once BYU-Idaho dropped sports weren't really fans of the university in the first place. Period.

  • kayeauneaux Sweetwater, TX
    May 11, 2014 7:36 p.m.

    1. For those who criticize U fans for not supporting the BYU football team, you haven't ever visited Ohio or Texas to meet UT/A&M/tOSU football fans. BYU football is completely irrelevant, even if those fans send their kids to BYU.

    2. BYU fans in the Provo bubble don't recognize the utter lack of interest in BYU football outside actual BYU fans around the country. In Houston, there's almost zero interest in BYU football in the general public. Same goes for Minneapolis. Same goes for Chicago. Cleveland. Washington, DC. BYU plays great with BYU fans. Outside BYU, no.

    3. Studio C has more impact on non-LDS TV viewers than BYU football, esp. in the younger generation.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 11, 2014 7:31 p.m.

    @Truth Machine

    As far as "power 4 conferences", one of the rumors floating out their is the B1G trying expand their television market reach by inviting the PAC 12's California schools.

    Imagine the chaos that would produce in the PAC 12, which would suddenly be far less "significant" than the old PAC 8, and immediately thrust into a desperate search for "significant" programs to replace UCLA, USC, Stanford and California.

    ------------

    Imagine the smack talk that would produce when BYU still didn't get an invite and Boise State did.

  • FDRfan Sugar City, ID
    May 11, 2014 6:25 p.m.

    He estimates 10,000 students annually are involved in some phase of the replacement programs. That includes intramural and tryout sports, outdoor and fitness activities, and service and talent development.

    Seems to be working just fine at BYUI. Suspect it would be the same at BYU except faces will change.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    May 11, 2014 6:22 p.m.

    "Most experts think there will eventually be 4 super conferences with 16 teams each, for a total of 64 relevant teams. Guess how many power conference teams there are currently? 65"

    65 divided by 5 is 13 teams per conference. No need to disband any of the Big 5.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    May 11, 2014 6:18 p.m.

    "why did the Big12 file a waiver request with the NCAA seeking permission to have a conference championship game despite the rule requiring 12 teams before you can do so?"
    The primary purpose of a conference championship game is money. A CCG can mean millions of additional dollars to the conference. The filed a waiver to have the option of a game.

    The Big12 currently prefers not to have a CCG because they learned the hard way that a loss in that unnecessary game can cost your conference a shot at the National Title (and even bigger $$).

  • KRB Katy, TX
    May 11, 2014 5:39 p.m.

    I think BYU is a fantastic school scholastically and I am grateful that it is there. However, as I have lived in lots of places around the US, I have found some troubling ideas and feelings towards BYU football. I am amazed that people mention BYU football in talks in church and even during fast and testimony meeting. Others have boasted that they judged their prospective spouses on just how loyal they are to the sport. I wonder and shake head at this. I cannot but think that their is a huge pride problem associated with the program.

  • runnerguy50 Virginia Beach, Va
    May 11, 2014 5:11 p.m.

    Though I enjoy watching college football it has no business on college campus's in it's current form. I don't watch pro football at all.
    BYU Rugby is my favorite college team and sport.

  • let's roll LEHI, UT
    May 11, 2014 5:02 p.m.

    @ MyPerspective

    The math works (almost) to have the 10 Big12 teams divided among the other 4 conferences to get 4 conferences with 14 teams. What doesn't work is that the Big12 isn't going to vote to disband itself. Why should it? What do you think the chances are that the PAC-12 would vote to disband and spread its teams among the other 4 conferences. I agree, zero.

    So what makes anyone believe the Big12 would vote to disband? Ain't going to happen. Too many big egos. Texas and Oklahoma have already turned the PAC-12 down once, they'd have no trouble doing it again.

    Let the so called experts who believe we're headed for 4 conferences explain which of the conferences is going to vote to disband.

    Finally, never underestimate a Conference Commissioner's ability to talk out of both sides of his mouth, but if the B1g12 is so completely satisfied with its path to the football playoff, why did they file a waiver request with the NCAA seeking permission to have a conference championship game despite the rule requiring 12 teams before you can do so?

  • Truth Machine Salt Lake City, UT
    May 11, 2014 4:58 p.m.

    Ken

    "The future power 4 conferences will have the same rights to exclude BYU an other insignificant programs just as the sec can exclude all non-sec teams from their title game."

    You obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about, especially implying that Utah is a "significant" program, while BYU is not.

    As far as "power 4 conferences", one of the rumors floating out their is the B1G trying expand their television market reach by inviting the PAC 12's California schools.

    Imagine the chaos that would produce in the PAC 12, which would suddenly be far less "significant" than the old PAC 8, and immediately thrust into a desperate search for "significant" programs to replace UCLA, USC, Stanford and California.

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    May 11, 2014 4:22 p.m.

    Much ado about nothing.

    BYU's athletic programs will be here long after the naysayers have given up on their BYU hating wishful thinking.

    BYU didn't spend millions building a state-of-the-art HD television studio to air re-runs of "Little House on the Prairie".

    The positive PR that the church gets through BYU sports, nationally and internationally, is immeasurable and fits in well with the mission of the institution and the church.

  • BCHoward Springville, UT
    May 11, 2014 4:16 p.m.

    There are a few misconceptions about sports at BYU and at most other institutions. Revenues and donations do not benefit academics. They are consumed upon themselves much like a cancer in the body. It takes up energy and contributes nothing to the institution worthy of its goals. Most operate in the red. And from what I have read BYU's programs operate in part on a 1% tuition override.
    Second that publicity benefits the University. The negative press requires damage control and neutralizes any positive benefit. Special administrators operate in the background to head off unpleasant press and to babysit the athletes and assure their adherence to the honor code and their academic success.
    Third, that if sports goes away fund raising would be hurt. Nonsense, if sports went away many donors would continue to give and others would come on board. Then the art and academic programs which have a world wide reputation would gain. Sports mainly touches the US. The traveling art programs greet the world.
    Sports at college is an "old Boy's game" for those who have dreams of glory.

  • JSB Sugar City, ID
    May 11, 2014 3:50 p.m.

    It was an interesting experience to go through the transition from Ricks College to BYU-Idaho when intercollegiate sports were dropped. There were people, coaches mostly, who predicted the demise of BYU-Idaho and griped incessantly. But, in retrospect, BYU-I students with the additional focus on real education and real learning are much, much better off without the expensive sports programs. What in the world does a school football team have to do with education anyway? Is there a positive correlation between a great football program and a great academic program? Do prospective employers choose their employees based upon the reputation of a university's basketball team? Do students get accepted to quality graduate programs because the university has a great baseball team? BYU-Provo ought to drop intercollegiate sports completely and focus on real education. The reputation of BYU would grow by virtue of the significant success of its graduates.

  • SLC BYU Fan Salt Lake City, UT
    May 11, 2014 3:05 p.m.

    Sadly there have been political pressures within LDS Church governance for BYU to drop intercollegiate athletics with some of the brethren feeling strongly that BYU in that way detracts from the mission of state institutions. Some feel that the growth of BYU and their athletic brand during the 1950s/60s cost Utah State its conference alignment positioning. The big catch in BYU dropping college sports is what then happens with Utah Valley University? If UVU started football in the wake of BYU discontinuing, it’s entirely possible UVU will emerge in merely a decade as a bigger brand than Utah State much the way Boise State has vs. Idaho (Moscow). There is little doubt over the years BYU administrators have used this argument to fend off such a hostile action in some smaller yet powerful factions within their board of trustees.

  • BYUalum South Jordan, UT
    May 11, 2014 2:41 p.m.

    BYU will NEVER play on Sunday...that's a given. BYU will NEVER go into a conference that doesn't also allow BYUtv. If you can, go through the BYUtv building on a guided tour (as I did two years ago) and see what the Mission Statement for BYUtv is. Then you will have a greater clarity and understanding of what this discussion is.

    And please, refrain from using this forum as a bully-pulpit. I, for one, wish everyone the best of luck across the state of Utah even though I am a true-blue Cougar. I'm just sick of the name-calling, sarcasm, and bickering!

  • Ken Sandy, UT
    May 11, 2014 2:27 p.m.

    Cougs dawgs, it's clear you don't understand anti trust laws. The future power 4 conferences will have the same rights to exclude byu an other insignificant programs just as the sec can exclude all non-sec teams from their title game.

    Where are the lawsuits from schools that want to have the right to play in the sec title game?

  • higv Dietrich, ID
    May 11, 2014 2:25 p.m.

    @cjb I was reading Mark E Peterson's Biography written by his daughter. Elder Peterson was a journalist. It mentioned where President McKay talked about them printing the Deseret News on Sunday and both him and the First Presidency agreed too. Elder Peterson thought there would be a lot of complaints. Weren't though.

  • Ken Sandy, UT
    May 11, 2014 2:22 p.m.

    Lets roll,

    After reading your comment its clear one of us is up to date on what the experts think, and it isn't you.

    Most experts think there will eventually be 4 super conferences with 16 teams each, for a total of 64 relevant teams. Guess how many power conference teams there are currently?

    65. Know what tht means? No conference is going to make room for byu, just as the big 12 isn't doing now, evn if it means not playing a title game. That's how little they think of you program, as bad as they want a title game they would rather not invite byu and not have a title game.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    May 11, 2014 1:47 p.m.

    Well there's a wildcard in the college sports picture and that is unionization. Of course BYU would be the LAST school to allow unionization, but what changes could come to college athletics with unionization? Plenty, and some of them good. If players were compensated for risk, things could even out across conferences.

  • JapanCougar Apo, AP
    May 11, 2014 1:34 p.m.

    Sooner Ute:

    To those who don't harbor a grudge, born of rivalry, against BYU, especially to those out-of-state, many have heard of BYU and formed their opinions of it based on their visibility from sports. Name recognition for schools often come from their sports successes--have you ever heard about Gonzaga, Butler, or even University of Miami for any reason other than sports?

  • AFCoug Colorado Springs, CO
    May 11, 2014 1:05 p.m.

    @PAC 12 pride.... How many schools in the big 5 have ever earned their places in those conferences? Very few and Utah is not one of those schools. No matter what the power 5 may think ther are only a small few schools truly able to win a national championship. All other programs in the power 5 are simply fodder for a couple elite schools in each conferance. Even the vaunted sec consists of 3-4 teams that stand any chance at a championship. Granted each has a better chance than a BYU or UtSt but still that chance is minimal at best. In the end the uses are now fodder for Oregon, Stanford, and USCs of the west. Ask the Arizona schools. They know the truth. College football is not about playing football anymore. It is only about money. Everything else plays 2nd fiddle to the almighty dollar so get off your high horses thinking you are better because you belong to a big 5 conferance. You are only richer, not better!

  • Duckhunter Highland , UT
    May 11, 2014 1:03 p.m.

    @soonerute

    Perhaps the LDS "fans" of the university of utah should reevaluate how much their love for the university of utah is causing them to hate one of the most important institutions of the LDS church.

    Perhaps in the interest of honesty they should seek the demise of the university of utah athletic program because of the divisiveness its existence obviously causes in this state.

  • Y Ask Y Provo, UT
    May 11, 2014 12:59 p.m.

    No way BYU Football will disappear any time soon, as long as it brings in millions and millions of dollars! It's all about the money, honey!

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 11, 2014 12:55 p.m.

    @kerichar

    Just because Ute fans don't like BYU doesn't prevent the influence of BYU and it's sports from being felt.

    -------------

    It's not just Utah, the influence of BYU sports has been felt at SDSU, Wyoming, Air Force, TCU, etc. Even PAC-12 officials that got pelted by garbage at LES last year have been influenced.

  • 3grandslams Iowa City, IA
    May 11, 2014 12:46 p.m.

    BYU will be fine gray are considered as one of the top 25 dynasties in all of college football. If other schools conferences want to discriminate against BYU because if Sunday play, so be it. BYU is about so much more than selling out their values just to have friends to eat with at lunch.

    I understand that Utah needs to hitch a ride on a sugar daddy to succeed, that's the world we are in, but Ute fans should stop being delusional that they earned it. Remember "reds" you were a backup plan to a failed invite. How unworthy are the Utes for the PAC? Their record speaks for themselves.

  • BCHoward Springville, UT
    May 11, 2014 12:31 p.m.

    Having been an employee of BYU for 25 years I observed the sports program closely and concluded that there was little of less worth, or more trivial than big-time competitive sports. Nothing in the academic community costs more with less benefit to the institution or creates more contention between communities and institutions resulting in nothing of any historical or real importance as an outcome. It is truly sound and fury signifying nothing. Be done with it and on to better things. Society is addicted to the pass-time in socially, emotionally, and economically, harmful ways. But then that is the nature of such things. They are hard to overcome. We need an AAA for the NCAA and such organizations. Just quit cold and STOP IT!

  • Old But Not Stupid Moorpark, CA
    May 11, 2014 12:27 p.m.

    Chris B
    Salt Lake City, UT

    "I don't think byu will do away with sports, but pretty soon all power conference schools will form their own division and only we [I assume Chris means U of U??] will be able to qualify for the real national title and big time bowl games."

    How many NCs in football has Vanderbilt won, Chris? How many SEC titles?. Having a theoretical ability "to qualify" is eons removed from actually qualifying.

    Others have noted already that as dregs of the PAC-12 it simply will NOT happen for the Utes. Please get real.

    Go Bruins!

  • BigCougar Bountiful, UT
    May 11, 2014 11:47 a.m.

    @ Chris B
    "I don't think byu will do away with sports, but pretty soon all power conference schools will form their own division and only we will be able to qualify for the real national title and big time bowl games."

    Lol! and even then with fewer teams to compete against, the Utes STILL won't be able to win a National Championship in football! Thank heavens they have NCAA Skiing and Women's Gymnastics, it gives the Utes a chance to field a competitive team in at least one sport.

    The Utes better hope that the skyrocketing expense of trying to keep pace with all the "have" universities in those power 5 conferences doesn't force them to start abandoning those non-revenue producing sports programs that have a long track record of success and are of National Championship caliber in order to keep more of the budget for the ones that aren't like football. At some point over-burdened tax payers in Utah as well as boosters aren't going to want to continue funding a losing program.

  • Rikitikitavi Cardston, Alberta
    May 11, 2014 11:12 a.m.

    Bob,
    I wish I could agree with you on scheduling. Truth is scheduling is getting nothing but tougher late in the season. Being independent clearly has many benefits. Scheduling quality opponents especially late in the season is NOT one of those. BYU should do everything reasonable to join the BIG 12. Sunday play is non-negotiable of course.
    In basketball the WCC is just not getting the job done for BYU. Who is gonna show up for say..LMU, or Portland State. These teams have very poor attendance at home and even worse on the road on our floor. Attendance is down. There are a few other reasons, but fact is our WCC opponents have poor road following. Texas, Kansas, Okla. etc. now that is another story...they have loyal fans who travel to games.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    May 11, 2014 10:56 a.m.

    The desnews prints newspapers on Sunday ( it didn't used to ). Why the difference between BYU playing on Sunday and the deseret news putting out a paper on Sunday?

  • SportsFan Orem, UT
    May 11, 2014 10:54 a.m.

    Nothing but Brad Rock stirring the pot and the typical BYU haters joining the fray.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    May 11, 2014 10:17 a.m.

    let's roll, you seem confused by the difference between "Conference Champion" and "Conference Championship Game".
    The Big 12 determines their champion by round robin regular season play. The committee will consider conference champions, not how they got the title. In your scenario, the SEC plays 8 conference and 1 championship game. The Big 12 plays 9 conference games. 9 games = 9 games.

    "The Big 12 has to be feeling incredible pressure to have a championship game in football."
    Two days ago, Big12 Commissioner Bob Bowlsby said the conference has no plans to switch back to a championship game. "We like our path to the national championship playoff." That doesn't sound like a conference feeling "incredible pressure".

    I appreciate your hope for a scenario where the Big12 "has to" take BYU, but that's a dry well.

  • What in Tucket? Provo, UT
    May 11, 2014 9:56 a.m.

    I watch BYU sports and only occasionally other universities. If BYU quits so be it. It would result perhaps in a renaissance of UVU athletics. I see BYU getting along just fine without athletics.

  • Herbert Gravy Salinas, CA
    May 11, 2014 9:42 a.m.

    Sheesh! Can't we ALL just get along?

  • RBB Sandy, UT
    May 11, 2014 9:27 a.m.

    BYU will not drop it's athletics program and the playoff system will get modified. BYU And Utah have been the agent for change in the past. BYU won the national championship by going undefeated. Utah busted the BSC twice. If they set up a 4 team playoff and BYU has a couple of undefeated seasons, either they will have to let them in or the playoff will be viewed as a joke. BYU, of course will have to figure out a way to beat Utah before anyone takes them seriously as a national contender.

  • Back Talk Federal Way, WA
    May 11, 2014 9:15 a.m.

    TV money, bowl money, ability to pay players, and atmosphere of exclusive scheduling will certainly benefit those who are in the "power conferences. However, I believe that separating the "power conferences" from the rest of the NCAA chould have greater affect on college sports in general than many people think. If they become an even greater shame of claiming to be a place where "student athlets" compete and more of a semi pro sponsored league who knows what tax and legal issues might arise.

    BYU would have the most affect in the PAC 12 (fan support at all games etc is clearly best on the West Coast) but I dont know if that could ever happen. It really is a matter of what TV market can a team deliver. UTah was chose to provide the Utah market. In return, they get the benefit of everything listed above.

    I really dont think that the CHurch wants BYU to become so sports minded that it loses its purpose.

    We will have to just wait to see what happens. Hopefully, it will be for the best.

  • Howard S. Taylorsville, UT
    May 11, 2014 9:06 a.m.

    Let's roll thinks BYU will end up in one of the 5 power conferences. I don't think so... and where's why.

    Power conferences own the broadcast rights for their members sports content. BYU has made a huge commitment to BYUtv, and BYU sports content is a part of that commitment.

    BYU and BYUtv are not going to give up broadcast rights... and no conference is going to invite BYU without ownership of broadcast rights.

  • DonO Draper, UT
    May 11, 2014 8:23 a.m.

    Garth Hall, as quoted in the article, has it right. Think of the good that could be done if the millions poured into BYU sports were redirected to education. True, some athletes learn valuable life lessons by competing, but in the final analysis all of it's "just a game"...just entertainment with little lasting positive effect.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    May 11, 2014 8:18 a.m.

    Ken:
    Obviously you don't understand anti-trust laws. What lets roll is saying is that in order to avoid antitrust litigation the new division or whatever it will be called will have to allow for any school/conference that meets their guidelines to choose to be included. It isn't a conference or bowl game issue, it is an antitrust issue for all of CFB. That's why former FCS schools have had to meet certain criteria in order to jump up to the FBS level...same issue here, if a school meets the standards it cannot be excluded from whatever division is created. If the division tries to exclude these schools (which BYU may be the only one that could meet the requirements) it will undoubtedly face anti trust lawsuits.

  • Steven S Jarvis Orem, UT
    May 11, 2014 8:06 a.m.

    There are the haves and the have nots in the world of college sports. Utah, USU and BYU currently are all on the have not list. None of these programs will ever likely compete year in and year out for national championships in college football. Utah probably has the least amount of opportunity to succeed in any individual sport for conference play having I think won a single PAC12 title I am aware of (gymnastics this year) while USU and BYU are at the top of their leagues in many sports.

    BYU won't give up the exposure that the sports programs bring to the church.

    One thing that isn't mentioned is how often the old BYU Idaho pipeline was used by Lavell for bringing in experienced linemen year after year. The loss of that program has hurt BYU with having enough experienced players.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    May 11, 2014 7:47 a.m.

    let's roll
    LEHI, UT

    "A four team playoff in football is unsustainable in an environment where 5 conferences profess the title of "power conferences." There's no power in a conference that can get it's champion into the playoff."

    An interesting point, let's roll.

    "Plus, if the Big 12 doesn't get their waiver of the 12 team minimum rule for a conference championship game, they'll have little choice but to expand to 12 teams since all the playoff births will be decided by a championship game."

    How about this scenario...

    The Big12 doesn't need a championship game because it gets divided among the four major conferences that already have a championship game. Under this scenario, the four team playoff is among the four power conferences and there are no at large births.

  • Ken Lee Pasadena, CA
    May 11, 2014 7:47 a.m.

    Endless Utes hoping and reading and thinking this news story will make their sorry attempt at .500 in football somehow be less humiliating. Your conference is called a power conference. You are called a doormat spoiler team with Stanford and BYU your only important wins last year. You will never, or very rarely, be ranked again or go to even a small bowl game. If you do get in a lesser bowl game, it will be because your conference has an automatic berth not because anyone wants to see your brand of football with goofy red uni's. Who did you lose to in that NIT tourney game? Remind me which channel carries those Ute games on DirecTV? I keep looking but no one seems to care. Go Utes…if everything falls into place you could win 5 games this year! Carry home that SOS trophy again. Whit will be picked up as a d-line coach by Bronco after this year. He'll be happy to get back to Provo.

  • agb Layton, UT
    May 11, 2014 6:30 a.m.

    Sooner Ute says:

    "Look no further than this state to see how the program divides, rather than unites. I know many LDS football fans who dislike BYU football. With such division, how is it a missionary tool?"

    So because many LDS fans don't like BYU football, BYU is devisive? It couldn't possibly be that the "many LDS fans you know who dislike BYU football" have other instate schools as their alma mater?

    Let's turn your argument on its head: many LDS fans dislike Utah (the school of the prophets) football, therefore the Utah football program is devisive.

    If you want to use non sequiturs, and logical fallacies to support your arguments so be it. But take your misplaced indignation somewhere else: it's "devisive."

    If you want to use non sequit

  • Bob Santaquin, UT
    May 11, 2014 2:31 a.m.

    BYU is and will remain an independent, thus we control our own destiny. Whatever the so called power 5 can dream up, BYU fans and donors can match, church monies are not and never have been part of the equasion! And,the power 5 can only declare their champion the power 5 champion, they cannot declare themselves the National Champion, simply because they have not yet played----BYU! We stay independent, we need not play on Sunday! And, there are plenty of teams left to schedule! And, because BYU can match every move made by the power 5, we'll also have that same recruiting advatage!

  • let's roll LEHI, UT
    May 11, 2014 12:34 a.m.

    The Big 12 has to be feeling incredible pressure to have a championship game in football. Not to do so makes them an easier target to be left out of the 4 team playoff. With other conferences being able to proffer their tournament champion, unless the Big 12 has an undefeated, unquestioned champion, they'll have to overcome the argument that there are 4 teams that won conference championship games in front of them.

    And if the Big 12 has two teams with the same record at the top, or co-champions after the regular season, it will be far too easy to pass over both of them since they don't have a championship game to settle the matter.

    BTW, there's no way BYU ever gets in a 4 team playoff with one loss. No chance, zero chance. Even if they're undefeated it will be an almost impossible task, again because they don't have the opportunity to win a conference championship game and their signature wins would be front-loaded in their schedule.

    My best guess is that when things shake out they'll be 5 conferences with 14 teams each (and BYU will join one of them) and an 8 team playoff.

  • let's roll LEHI, UT
    May 11, 2014 12:18 a.m.

    @Ken

    One of us is a lawyer and based on your comment I can tell it's not you.

    The AGs of a number of states have considered bringing anti-trust suits against the NCAA.

    If you look at the history of the BCS, you'll discover that many of the rules governing BCS bowl selection were driven by compromise born of threats of anti-trust suits. It's very likely that Utah would have never played in a BCS bowl without changes in the rules that were the result, at least in part, of the concern about anti-trust suits. BTW, under the BCS rules, BYU did have the opportunity to play in the Rose Bowl (at least when it was the Rose Bowl's year to have the NC game).

    @ SoonerUte

    There's no rule that the 4 teams have to be Conference Champions, but since there are only 4 births, the only way a non-conference champion gets in is if the Conference champion is in as well (e.g. both teams in the SEC championship game might get in but no other conference will send anyone but their champion; and two conference champions will be left out). Ouch.

  • Pac 12 Pride Salt Lake, UT
    May 11, 2014 12:02 a.m.

    Ken:

    Spot on! The Power 5 conference and Notre Dame absolutely can form their own division if they want. There is no legal requirement to open up something to any college that wants a piece.

    @lets roll: The requirements would be the same for everyone - earn a spot in a power conference and you can play in the power conference football tournament.

  • Crisco B Salt Lake City, UT
    May 10, 2014 11:26 p.m.

    Ken, hate to say it but I think it is actually safe to say that NO ONE in Utah has access to the PAC 12 title game or the Rose Bowl.

  • Vladhagen Salt Lake City, UT
    May 10, 2014 11:06 p.m.

    I severely doubt BYU is seriously considering dropping sports. While there are certainly battles about the "Y" versus the "I" (BYU-Idaho), the massive difference between BYU and other CES schools is that BYU is not all about inclusion. BYU-ID has a nice role; it allows many LDS students to go to school and participate in sports. BYU-ID turns no one away. BYU turns lots of people away. BYU is not about inclusion.

    Also, I have said it before and will say it again: When Ricks was turned into BYU-ID, Rexburg saw the last of any money from my family. Sports were the only thing connecting us to the institution formerly known as Ricks College.

  • Crisco B Salt Lake City, UT
    May 10, 2014 10:55 p.m.

    At least half of these comments will be about "Moving On." Yes, Yes, Yes, we get it, you have moved on from going to bowl games and started expending the left over energy on more worthwhile pursuits like commenting on DN boards.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    May 10, 2014 10:11 p.m.

    @BYU9293

    The Power 5 and Notre Dame could split into a new football tier, just like D1-A and D1-AA split. I can see an expanded playoffs to 8 teams, 5 champions and 3 at large bids. You'll never see a playoff with MWC, CUSA, etc. champions with an auto playoff spot.

  • truthsandwich RANDOLPH, UT
    May 10, 2014 9:12 p.m.

    Break out the popcorn, this should be a fun thread.

  • Ken Sandy, UT
    May 10, 2014 8:24 p.m.

    Lets roll,

    You are wrong if you think by law byu and non big power conference teams will have to have access to the national title. They don't currently have access to the rose bowl. They dont have access to the PAC 12 title game.

    Where are the anti trust laws on that?

    Why doesn't a school sue and demand access to the sec title ?

  • kerichar PROVO, UT
    May 10, 2014 7:48 p.m.

    Ziggy Ansah, Steve Young, and even Jim McMahon have opened doors for teaching the gospel for my son serving an LDS mission in the midwest. Jimmer Fredette too, for that matter.

    Just because Ute fans don't like BYU doesn't prevent the influence of BYU and it's sports from being felt. Especially with the rise and growth of BYUtv in recent years.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    May 10, 2014 7:27 p.m.

    "since all the playoff births will be decided by a championship game."
    Incorrect. A conference championship will be considered, but is not required.

    "but until you have a real tournament, meaning inviting all conference champions"
    I presume you mean all conference champions... in Division One. You're not suggesting that the playoff include all Division Two and Three champions, right?

  • Las Vegas Aggie Logan, Utah
    May 10, 2014 7:01 p.m.

    As I see it if the big 5 conferences leave out BYU they only have two real choices back to the MWC or drop out of sports and neither seem real, but something has to give.

    Everyone seems the big 12 is just waiting for BYU to drop the Sunday play rule, which will never happen, but do they want to be in a league with local rival West Virgina?

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    May 10, 2014 6:12 p.m.

    "BYU seems unlikely to go the same route as smaller LDS schools. There’s too much visibility, i.e. missionary opportunity, for that"
    Look no further than this state to see how the program divides, rather than unites. I know many LDS football fans who dislike BYU football. With such division, how is it a missionary tool?

  • BYU9293 Clinton, UT
    May 10, 2014 6:11 p.m.

    Great comment let's roll, I think you are right on the head. All that the ncaa has done, has not helped them in the anti trust area and it is still a monopoly, in fact, they have hurt their case. To be honest, until you include every single conference champion, sun belt, etc, then you will never have a true national champion in football, but only a mythical one. I love that byu won the championship in 1984, but until you have a real tournament, meaning inviting all conference champions, it will never be a true national championship...period. And saying it is does not make it one.

  • let's roll LEHI, UT
    May 10, 2014 5:58 p.m.

    A four team playoff in football is unsustainable in an environment where 5 conferences profess the title of "power conferences." There's no power in a conference that can get it's champion into the playoff.

    I doubt the current 4 team format will last more than 2 or 3 years and then they'll go to 8, giving each of the conference champions a birth as well as 3 at large births.

    Plus, if the Big 12 doesn't get their waiver of the 12 team minimum rule for a conference championship game, they'll have little choice but to expand to 12 teams since all the playoff births will be decided by a championship game.

    Finally, if the larger conferences want to break away, they'll be able to avoid an anti-trust judgment only if they set standards and say they'll include anyone who agrees to maintain those standards.

    The price tag for those standards will likely preclude most teams from signing on, but major independents like ND and BYU will have the financial means to meet the standards and will either join as independents or be absorbed into one of the participating conferences.

  • plyxply SLC, UT
    May 10, 2014 5:31 p.m.

    It would be a shame if BYU-Provo went the route of BYU Idaho and BYU Hawaii. The football program is iconic at BYU Provo and it seems to serve a purpose of getting the church out in a positive light.
    I am not a BYU fan, but I really hope BYU Provo continues it's strong support of D1 athletics.

  • Cougar Claws Lindon, UT
    May 10, 2014 4:23 p.m.

    The biggest difference between THE BYU sports teams and the Ricks College/other CES sports teams are the Millions and Millions of dollars earned by the sports programs earned by the football and basketball programs, all by themselves, independent of any tithing contributions from the LDS Church. Not to mention all of the support they give all the other Olympic sports that are even allowed to exist because of football and basketball funding.

    Ricks Sports didn't have the fraction of the millions generated by the BYU Football and Basketball Programs

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    May 10, 2014 4:15 p.m.

    I don't think byu will do away with sports, but pretty soon all power conference schools will form their own division and only we will be able to qualify for the real national title and big time bowl games.

    The mwc and wac and sun belt and schools like that(including byu and Utah state) will be able to form their own playoffs or do whatever they want

    But we ARE moving towards the power conferences fully separating form the lesser schools.

    But I do think byu and Utah state will be among the best of the new division II schools.