What they were doing there is illegal as well as immoral. Disturbing sacred
sites is not a good thing. What if we ran through their parents graveyard with
an ATV like they have done so many times in the past. We would get arrested and
fined for the same thing.
If this was "civil disobedience" I expect them all to be arrested and
jailed. They should be lining up in front of the Sheriff's office to show
their devotion to the cause.Oh wait, the Sheriff was there and
didn't arrest anyone? Good thing nobody bid on anything...
@Cats"It just makes it harder for people who cannot walk or ride
a horse to gain access to the public lands they are the owners of. They have a
right to see these artifacts, too."The problem with your
argument is that ATV riders are not a protected class of people. There are
other methods of travel for those who can't walk but want to see artifacts.
It's funny that you're making this argument but not arguing that
ATV's should be allowed in Yellowstone for essentially the same reasons.And let's be totally honest here: ATV riders aren't accessing
these trails because they want to see Native American artifacts. They're
riding ATV's because they want to burn some gas, make some noise, and have
a good time. I ride ATV's and I don't use it for transportation from
point to point, and neither does anybody else I know.
To Cats, Your wrote: "Too many people think they know what goes on in San
Juan County when they actually have no idea."You present yourself as
an authority on San Juan County. Do you live in San Juan County? Somewhere In
Time isn't very definitive.
Open letter to Phil LymanSir Your ride through known archaeological
sites is reprehensible. This freedom ride is limited to a small group with their
own self-interest in mind. I agree with the premise of free access to travel on
public lands, but there is a delicate balance where your freedom, will and
desire should not impinge on my freedom, will and desire. That balance is known
as law, it is how we as a people have elected to live in this country in a
mutual contract. so while you espouse that you are protesting against an unfair
government ruling, you are unilaterally denying any private citizen that
disagrees with your position and abides by that contract a say in the matter. I
wholeheartedly disagree with it and I consider it to be a criminal action, with
real flesh and blood victims. Your protest is akin to vandalizing a cemetery.
Those founding patriots with whom you have aligned yourself were willing to take
responsibility for their actions, are you? I suggest that you be prosecuted to
the full extent of the law for any damage incurred.
I respect these protesters. Sometimes an act of civil disobedience is the only
way to get the attention of a federal agency run amok like the BLM. If you
don't believe they have run amok, just watch the online video of the BLM
agents with their tasers and attack dogs going crazy on the Bundy family in
Nevada.I wish I lived in Utah as I would join these good people.
Cats:You are correct that the Navajo are not descendants of the
Anasazi, as the Navajo came south from northern Canada about 500 years ago. The
Utes, Zuni, Pueblo and possibly Shoshone may be descendants of the Anasazi - DNA
testing and some population genetics may reveal their relations.I do
know something about relations in San Juan County, from the side of the Navajo,
who, interestingly, do not (generally) see things the same way the predominantly
Anglo residents of Blanding see them. Until Mark Maryboy was elected a
commissioner in San Juan County, the Dineh (Navajo) perceive that conservative
Anglos assumed they were in charge and in control, that they were divinely
destined to rule. While conservatives and the Montana Militia seek
to claim millions of acres of federal land, the Dineh are seeking a national
monument, and I hope they get it. It's clear there will never be agreement
between the various interests, and to pretend there could be is silly. Obama should strike one for the First Nation people in that area and
declare the monument.
Cats: Your logic is so flawed. One point in particular is fraught with
problems. The destruction of and disrespect for native American sites may be a
tradition in Blanding for the last 150 years, but that doesn't make it
right. If that logic is true, then you end up supporting the oldest of all
professions and practices: prostitution.
I can understand the frustration of waiting years for the BLM to process an
application. Government is bureaucratic, things happen slowly, not all laws are
agreeable to all of the population, we all understand. But is it worth spilling
blood over? Democracy is not a semi-automatic weapon. Leave your guns at home.
And don't ride your ATV with an American flag as if breaking laws in
unison is patriotic. It's an insult to every law-abiding U.S. citizen who
pays their taxes as well as their speeding tickets.
If these folks want to stage an act of civil disobediance against the BLM for
policies they oppose, so be it.Tim DeChristopher served 21 months in
prison for an act of civil disobedience against the BLM. There
simply isn't any reason that the very same judgement shouldn't be
applied against every last one of these lawbreakers.
Dear 10CC:Again, you are misinformed. The Navajos are NOT the
descendants of the Anasazis. In fact, the word Anasazi is a Navajo word that
means "ancient enemies." The Anasazis did not evolve into the Navajos.
They simply left. The Navajos are a completely different group. Their opinions
about this shouldn't carry any more weight than those of any other
American. And...the Blandingites do no "bully" the Navajos
or the Utes. They are very kind to them and they actually all get along quite
well. You are clearly thinking about some other native people in some other
part of the country.Too many people think they know what goes on in
San Juan County when they actually have no idea.
Dear 10CC:You are clearly one of the many people who are misinformed
about this case like most the posters on these boards. The artifacts were not
disturbed and BLM has not denied access altogether. Banning ATVs does not in
ANY WAY protect the artifacts A couple of guys went in there and
did a little maintenance on the trail. That's all. They caused no damage
and didn't intend to do anything wrong. No artifacts were damaged. The
Great Old Broads (who live in Durango, CO--not Blanding) found out who did it
and filed charges against them. People came from far and wide to pay their
fines. The whole thing was ridiculous.Banning ATVs from this trail
does not in ANY WAY save the artifacts. It just makes it harder for people who
cannot walk or ride a horse to gain access to the public lands they are the
owners of. They have a right to see these artifacts, too.I
don't condone law breaking, but this case is just another example of Big
Brother heavy handedness. These people love that land more than anyone in the
world. They have no desire to damage it.
I was wondering if Mr. Bundy will have any time in his busy schedule for signing
Re: BJ61 and Interloper. It could not be said any better. Problem is you are
spitting into the wind bringing reason to the subject here in Utah. Bad new is,
The Radical right will grab their white hats, saddle up to ride in any posse
that that is formed to eradicate the Right Wing-Ding arch enemy, the big boogie
man aka the Federal Govt. Good news is, give them enough room and time and
inevitably they will follow the leader right over the edge. Happens every time!
Cats:Actually, your logic is flawed. The people of the United
States of America owns that land, and through our democratically elected
representatives the BLM manages that land, for all US citizens, not just the
people of Blanding.As a co-owner of that land, I want what's
left of the Anasazi artifacts protected. My voice - and the voice of all
Americans, including the Navajos, whom the people in Blanding have been bullying
for well over 100 years - are equivalent to the locals in Blanding.If you & the people of Blanding are turning everything into a
free-for-all, I want one of the F-16s at Hill AFB. I'm a licensed pilot,
I'm pretty sure I've paid more in taxes than most people... I deserve
one of those jets.
Among his ill-considered remarks on blacks and slavery, Cliven Bundy also
compared himself to Rosa Parks. But by allying himself with self-styled
militias brandishing weapons, Bundy betrayed a lack of historical understanding
(not surprising) and a lack of a coherent protest philosophy. Rosa Parks, Dr.
King, and the black civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s were
passionately committed to nonviolent civil disobedience. Arms were not part of
their strategy. (When I participated in nonviolent civil disobedience protests
at the Nevada Test Site in the 1980s, there was even vigorous debate as to
whether going limp instead of willingly offering your wrists for handcuffing
constituted violence.)If the San Juan County protesters wish to join
with the Bundys and their militia supporters, fine, but they will not be the
intellectual or philosophical heirs of Dr. King. They will be following in the
footsteps of Huey Newton, the Black Panthers, Malcolm X, and "by any means
necessary." There is a huge difference and it does not benefit their cause.
BJ61: You comparison is flawed. Rio Tinto is a private owner. The Federal
Government is not. This land belongs to the people of this nation and not the
Federal officers who think they can bully and control it. The people have a
right to access their own property--especially in view of the history of this
trail with has been used by the locals for well over a hundred years.
These people are not law breakers or unreasonable people in any way. They have
just had it with the Feds always controlling their lives and outside groups like
the Great Old Broads who don't live there and don't live with the
consequences of these decisions but think they have a right to control the lives
of the locals. This is Big Brother gone amok and someone needs to do
something. I wish them well in their protest and I hope something can be done.
Does Phil Lyman believe people are hopelessly naive? Nearly 90% of Utah is
public lands. If any citizen who decided he is the arbiter of some acres here
and there was allowed to get away with it, there would be chaos. Furhermore,
there is no 'ancestral right' to these lands held by any
European-descended inhabitant. The BLM legitimately acts as custodian of
Recapture for all of America's citizens. What this is really
about is 'sovereign citizens' - people who say they are above the
federal government - claiming ownership of public property for their own selfish
reasons - whether grazing cattle illegally or tearing up a historical site with
ATVs. We should see these people for the louts they are.
My ancestors and I have lived in close proximity to what is now the Bingham
Canyon mine for a century and a half. I have decided that Rio Tinto has no real
legal title to that land; therefore, I am going to arm myself tomorrow morning
(along with other self-proclaimed geniuses who have joined my cause), storm the
mine, and take over its operation going forward. It is clear to me that Rio
Tinto has not operated the mine in the manner that I and my band are willing to
accept.What nonsense! Arrest the Bundy family, Commissioner Lyman,
and their seditious militia, and continue to arrest anyone who violates the law.
What part of illegal is so difficult for the Bundy clan and their anarchist
followers to understand?