"The words 'under God' are a reminder to our children that
government doesn’t give us our rights and it can’t take them away
either."This statement inherently carries an implication of
favoring one religion, or one category of religion, over another - Abrahamic
monotheism.So what does this say to the Buddhist or the Hindu, who
are polytheistic?What does this say to the Wiccan, who worships the
goddess, not God?What does this say to the Scientologist, who
believes that we are not sent here by a benevolent god, but by an evil galactic
warlord who has an interest in quashing our rights, not granting or expanding on
them?The phrase "under God" is problematic not just to
atheists, but to those who practice non-Abrahamic religions as well. And if we
are truly interested in religious freedom, we would do well to respect that.
The pledge never was supposed to say "one nation under God..."That phrase was put in the pledge during the days of the Macarthy
anti-communisit hysteria.Our great nation was trying to prove to the world
that we loved God more than those GOD-less commies.The Pledge of
Allegiance originally said: "one nation indivisible..."Indivisible!So pharisees got in there and divided the nationby
sticking God into the mix.Our "one nation indivisible" is now
divisible.Divided with God.The phrase does not belong in the
pledge.By he way, I'm not an atheist.
Cleetorn, what if a prayer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster was included in
public meetings and in the pledge? What if the Church of the FSM dictated what
should be public law? Your reactions to these questions are probably equivalent
to how we see appeals to YOUR deity.
Atheists aren't offended by imaginary beings, they are offended these
beings and government are intertwined. I would have thought that was pretty
obvious - they are't petitioning the Mass. courts to destroy god, just to
separate church and state. The argument in this case was: does simply saying
"under god" in the pledge rise to the level of establishment. The courts
have said that it doesn't. It's a fairly simple. Chris,
it's likely that most of the Founding Fathers would have been very upset
that we even have a pledge to the flag. Go ahead, read their writings. They
abhorred the idea of pledging to things because they saw it as too close to
pledging to a king. So no, they wouldn't have been happy about this ruling.
They would be disappointed that we make our kids pledge to a flag everyday.Finally Capsaicin I was going to rebut your every comment but twocents
did a fine job. As an atheist while I would love to see an end to religion and
am positive that would result in a better society; I'll gladly settle for
religion staying out of the government.
@Cleetorn"the Pledge is an affirmation of one's loyalty to
the USA."Hardly. It's rote memorization mindlessly repeated
with little thought to what is being said. If you want folks repeating
something, use what I've used for over 40 years:"I do
solemnly affirm that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United
States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith
and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any
mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully
discharge the duties of the office to which I am about to enter." There's a loyalty pledge for you.
One thing just escapes me in all of this debate. How can atheists be offended by
someone who (to them) does not exist?
Capsaicin said, "Can atheists really not see the problem with getting rid of
religion?"No girls kidnapped in Nigeria, no planes flown into
buildings, no mega Church TV empires bilking millions out of their hard earned
cash, equal rights for all regardless of faith...am I missing anything?"Can they really not see a problem with allowing people to decide for
themselves what is absolute right and absolute wrong?" So much
for your "God made free will" comment later on."But the
fact remains we all know right from wrong from the womb." Not at
all true. Here is one truism for you to chew on: "We are all born
atheist.""But God made free will"Which,
according to your earlier statement is something "we" should not be
allowing."God founded this country"No he
didn't. Free thinkers inspired by the ideas and philosophy of the
enlightenment era did. God was no where to be seen.
my_two_cents_worth, the Pledge is an affirmation of one’s loyalty to the
USA. Even Obama shows his deference to the flag by standing for the Pledge even
if he does not put his hand on his heart or recite it. That’s a world
apart from sitting in defiance of it and all it represents. I know of several
who recite everything but the “under God” part as they are in
support of all but the theistic representation. Just a thought.And
the reference to the “Founding Fathers” is more of a metaphor. If a
deceased parent were still living, they might well be proud of the
accomplishments of their progeny. So, too, might the Founding Fathers be
similarly proud to see those who have come after them uphold the principles they
advocated and fought for. Maybe?
Can atheists really not see the problem with getting rid of religion? Can they
really not see a problem with allowing people to decide for themselves what is
absolute right and absolute wrong? Can they really not see a problem with
people, especially godless people setting the bar of behavior so low, that they
are completely fine with behaviors that are clearly wrong? The fact is though
that there are atheists that behave better than "believers." To each
their own. But the fact remains we all know right from wrong from the womb.
Whether we choose to accept the rights and eschew the wrongs is up to us.
Frankly its maddening to see people behave badly. But God made free will
(agency) the top of his priorities. Freedom to choose is the American way, most
especially because God founded this country. Lets all hope that all people,
americans especially, can find, listen, and serve God as He wants us to.
Change it to "the gods" and watch the religious 'freedom'
advocates sing a new song.
@Chris BThe pledge was composed 100 years after the founding
fathers. They likely had no opinion on the pledge then and probably
wouldn't have any comment today.
I'll just continue to do what I always do, remain seated, keep my hands in
my lap, and refuse to join in and absolutely dare anyone to challenge me on it.
Chris B. I agree, totally.
Know who would be happy with this news?The Founding Fathers
Great news!With this and the prayers being upheld by the supreme
court, its nice to see liberals being told "you're wrong, deal