Daniel Peterson strikes again, once more demonstrating effectively how biased,
dogmatic, and agenda-driven translations of the Bible have distorted the true
doctrines of Christianity, and have caused misconceptions regarding the place
and potential of humanity in the grand scheme of Creation.
JediMormon, I agree. Mormons worship the Jesus of the New Testament.That said, where we disagree with much of the rest of the Christian world is
the articulation of Jesus that was invented, argued about, and defined in the
centuries after the New Testament (adding to and overshadowing the Scriptures
themselves) in a series of ecumenical councils that progressively mystified
Christ, while creating progressively more restrictive formulations that excluded
more and more people from being considered Christian. This all happened, of
course, as the Christian world itself was falling into apostasy. The further
away from true apostles, the longer and more excluding the creeds became. I
worship the Christ of the New Testament, not the Christ of Nicea in 325 (goodbye
Arians and Melitians) or Constantinople in 381 (goodbye Apollinarians) or
Ephesus in 431 (goodbye Nestorians) or Chalcedon in 451 (goodbye Miaphysites) or
Constantinople in 553 (goodbye followers of Theodore, Theodoret, and Ibas) or
Constantinople in 681 (goodbye Monotheletes) or Nicea in 787 (goodbye
Iconoclasts--those who saw veneration of images as idol worship). And because of that, many of those, who accept these pronouncements by
uninspired men, claim you and I aren't Christian.
With all due respect to brokenclay and anyone else who makes the claim that
Mormons worship a "different" Jesus, I can dispel that myth rather
quickly. When I personally think of Jesus Christ, I'm thinking of the Jesus
the bible talks about. Every thing the bible says about Jesus, Mormons believe.
Everything. Therefore, how can that be a "different" Jesus than the
Jesus the rest of Christianity believes in? Only ONE Jesus Christ died on the
cross for our sins. Do Mormons have a different opinion than other Christian
religions about some aspects of Christ's life and deeds? Probably--but that
doesn't mean the Jesus Mormons worship is a different Jesus than is
worshipped by the rest of Christianity. The standard charge is "you claim
that your Jesus did "this" or said "that", so that makes him a
different Jesus.No, it doesn't.All it means is that
Mormons attribute acts and words to Jesus (via the Book of Mormon, D&C,
etc.) that the rest of Christianity doesn't believe He did or said.
It's still the same Jesus, folks.
RE: Job 38:4, God rebukes Job, “Where wast thou when I laid the
foundations of the earth? ”When the morning stars sang together, and all
”the sons of God“ shouted for joy (Job 38:7.)” Job
wasn’t in existence when the world was created.”“The sons of God” generally refers to angels. They are not
actually “sons” of Elohim; the idiom is a poetic way of describing
their nature and relationship to God. The phrase indicates their supernatural
nature, and their submission to God as the sovereign Lord. It may be classified
as a genitive that expresses how individuals belong to a certain class or type,
i.e., the supernaturalJer 1:5 God is omniscient, knows each person
before birth. God’s foreknowledge (“I knew thee”), not humans
know God.@Psalm 8:1. O LORD our Lord: Greek, KYRIE ὁ Kurios.
Hebrew, Jĕhovah Adonai= Jesus in the O.T..
One must have access to knowledge of the source and meaning of the secret
vocabulary of words to play the game and win the key to understanding ancient
Psalm 8 (suggested outline)a. 1. O LORD our Lord,a. how
excellent is thy name.b. in all the earth!.b. who hast set thy glory
above the heavens...c. 2. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings
hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies,..c. that thou
mightest still the enemy and the avenger....d. 3. When I consider thy
heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars,...d. which thou
hast ordained;....e. 4. What is man, that thou art mindful of
him?....e. and the son of man, that thou visitest him?.....f. 5. For
thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,.....f. and hast crowned
him with glory and honour. ...d. 6. Thou madest him to have dominion
over...d. the works of thy hands;..c. thou hast put all things under
his feet:..c. 7. All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;..c. 8. The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth
through the paths of the seas.a. 9. O LORD our Lord,a. how
excellent is thy name.b. in all the earth!.b. [Ellipsis]
21st Century King James Version, Complete Jewish Bible, Darby Translation,
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition, Expanded Bible, Jubilee Bible 2000, King
James Version, Authorized (King James) Version, New Century Version, New Life
Version, Wycliffe Bible, New King James Version, Living Bible, New International
Versionall translate Psalms 8:5 as “angels” Orthodox Jewish Bible uses “elohim”1599 Geneva
Bible, New American Standard Bible, American Standard Version, Revised Standard
Version Catholic Edition, Amplified Bible, New Revised Standard Version, New
Revised Standard Version, Anglicised, New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised
Catholic Edition, New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition, World English
Bible, New Living Translation, Holman Christian Standard Bibleall
use “God”New International Reader's Version, Lexham
English Bible, New English Translation, and the English Standard Versionall use “heavenly beings”GOD’S WORD
Translation, Names of God Bible, Contemporary English Version, and the Good News
Translationall use “yourself”the following
translations also interpret “a little lower” differently:Easy-to-Read Version: “almost like gods”The Voice:
“just beneath God”Young's Literal Translation “to
lack a little of Godhead”The Message “we’ve so narrowly
missed being gods”
RE: “elohim” is also,in Hebrew, a masculine plural noun.”?Elohiym H430) I.(plural) A. rulers, judges b. divine ones C. angels D.
gods. But,II.(plural intensive)with “Singular Meaning” A. god,
goddess B. godlike c. one. works or special possessions of God. D*the(true)God.
RE: Russell Spencer, Elohim the construction is usually
grammatically SINGULAR, (i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective) when
referring to the Hebrew *God, but grammatically plural (i.e. taking a plural
verb or adjective) when used of pagan divinities.If the Septuagint
is thick with mistranslation, its errors are frequently sanctioned by the N. T.
. For instance, if the word “virgin(parthenos)”in Isaiah 7.14 is a
mistranslation of the Hebrew word *almah, Matthew 1:23 agrees to this error.Luke 1:35,“l know not a man”? Did Mary tell a lie? Mary
knew the reality of her own virginity. She declared that her pregnancy was the
result of the miraculous overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, not from a sex act
with a man.Job 38:7 NIV …” and all the
angels=sons)shouted for joy”. More on this later.
"Elohim" can mean God or gods; there are no capital/lower case letters
in Hebrew, so which is meant depends on usage. The word "elohim" in
Hebrew is not the equivalent of "angels;" that's "malakhim"
or "cherubim." "Malahkim" refers to messengers, whether divine
or mortal (the Prophet Malachi's name means "my messenger").
"Cherubim" refers specifically to "strong" or "great"
ones in the presence of God (I prefer to think of cherubim as the equivalent of
"archangels").Brokenclay's arguments are invalid. That
the translators who produced the LXX sacrificed some ancient Hebrew
understandings to incorporate some Hellenist philosophies into their work is
well known. That Paul quoted directly from the LXX (the common Bible of his
day) is also well known. He also quoted Greek pagan poetry; does that change
the Gospel into something pagan?I am curious though, often the way
to determine whether "elohim" refers to God or gods is by looking at the
attached verbs (Genesis 1:1 refers to God because the verb "created" is
in the Hebrew masculine singular); is there anything in the Hebrew version of
Psalm 8:4-6 which would indicate which is intended?
kvnsmnsn,The Holy Spirit (aka The Holy Ghost) was, is, and will
always be the mind of the Father and the Son (1 Cor.2:10-16; Philip.2:5, KJV
Bible).In eternity, in the new heaven and the new earth, Jesus
Christ (with a brand new name per Rev.3:12) will be an eternal Son of God (1
Cor. 15:24-28, KJV BIble). Up until then he is the God of the whole earth and
sitteth at the right hand of the Father.
Michigander posted:=Jesus has said that in the resurrection of the
just that we will be equal to or=as the angels of God, not the heresy of
being Gods and Goddesses. There will be=only ONE God in the new heaven and
the new earth in eternity: God the Eternal=Father, whose name alone is
JEHOVAH.So, Michigander, are you saying that neither Jesus Himself
nor the Holy Spirit are actually God?
This is a not only a wresting of Psalm 8:5, but of Hebrews 2:7, which are both
translated correctly as "angels" in the KJV Bible. We are strongly
warned in the scriptures that if we wrest them, we do it to our own destruction.
Jesus has said that in the resurrection of the just that we will be equal to or
as the angels of God, not the heresy of being Gods and Goddesses. There will be
only ONE God in the new heaven and the new earth in eternity: God the Eternal
Father, whose name alone is JEHOVAH.
@ DanI thought brokenclay did a great job of using our blessedly large
English vocabulary to communicate his/her thoughts with precise meaning.I
don't personally agree with any of those thoughts, but none of the "big
words" used were obscure terms that required the use of a dictionary. A bit
wordy? Perhaps. Enough to attack his wordsmithery? I don't think so. Just
because you have to think for a minute to fully process what was written
doesn't mean it should have been written differently. Thinking is good for
@ Dan Maloy"Common language works just fine."Common is a relative term. One should avoid simplifying language depending on
the audience. Also, if one finds a subject difficult due to unfamiliarity with
the jargon, perhaps more studying is in order.
brokenclay said"The LDS use this reasoning with regard to Jesus
Christ. Since they worship someone named Jesus, he must be the same Jesus of the
orthodox Christians; therefore, the LDS must be Christian."This
argument might mean something if Mormons actually worshipped just
"someone" named Jesus. But since Mormons worship THE Jesus of the New
Testament, the same New Testament that over a billion Christians use, then that
tired, old, silly "different Jesus" argument just doesn't hold
Perhaps we should also find fault with the author of Hebrews' theology? He
quotes this same passage in 2:6-8, following the LXX, which reads,
"angels." He further applies the teachings of this psalm messianically--
referencing the incarnation, suffering, and exaltation of Jesus Christ.But frankly, it really is inconsequential from a Hebrew perspective whether we
translate it angels, gods, or heavenly beings. There was no distinction here in
the Hebrew mind. The problem occurs when Mormons like Dr. Peterson
anachronistically import a modern western understanding of the term
"god" back three millennia-- i.e., a being who is to be worshiped and
who shares the same qualitative nature as God, who then becomes one among many.
Incidentally, Dr. Peterson has erred in the same manner with reference to the
eastern church fathers. He imports an LDS understanding of theosis back into the
eastern understanding of deification, reasoning that since they both use the
same terminology they must be the same thing.The LDS use this
reasoning with regard to Jesus Christ. Since they worship someone named Jesus,
he must be the same Jesus of the orthodox Christians; therefore, the LDS must be
The following expressions by Nephi in the Book of Mormon give the same
expression to those found in the psalm quoted. 1 Nephi 1:14-15: “And it came to pass that when my father had read and seen many
great and marvelous things, he did exclaim many things unto the Lord; such as:
Great and marvelous are thy works, O Lord God Almighty! Thy Throne is high in
the Heavens, and thy Power, and Goodness, and Mercy are over all the inhabitants
of the earth; and, because thou art merciful, thou wilt not suffer those who
come unto thee that they shall perish! And after this manner was the language of
my father in the praising of his God; for his soul did rejoice, and his whole
heart was filled, because of the things which he had seen, yea, which the Lord
had shown unto him.” These verses show the originality of the
Book of Mormon at the same time expressing the same truths found in the Bible.