Published: Wednesday, May 7 2014 12:00 a.m. MDT
And then there is the matter of what's in the prayer. In conservative Utah
the content of prayers is going to reflect LDS political conservatism. What if
someone in attendance objects? If they express their objections they will be
shunned. If they don't express their reservations they will have been
There is no "establishment clause" in the Constitution. "Congress
shall make no law pertaining to an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof;" The 1st Amendment did not say "the
establishment". It said "an establishment". Those two words make all
the difference in the world. "An establishment" is a preexisting
religion. It has already been established. It exists. Government cannot
dictate religios doctrine. Holding prayer is both free speech and
the free exercise of our religious rights. If we have become so intolerant of
thought that hearing someone pray offends us, then we have become religious
I can't believe the DN printed this piece, but I'm glad they did.Mr. Davis got it right.
Agreed.Those reading this newspaper, and living in Utah, and
probably have never lived anywhere else, and mostly likely are LDS will see this
and cheer it as a "good" thing.BUT, Having lived
Outside of this imanginary bubble world, This is a bad thing.I've lived in the Bible belt - were "Mormons" are viewed as equal
to Satan worshippers.I've lived in areas that the majority was
Spiritual, but not religous - were Mormons are viewed as intolerant
puritians.I've lived in Utah - were most NON-Mormons are
constantly on guard and on the defense 24/7.I've also served in
the Military, which is the best reflected cross section of America.Sometimes we banded together as brothers in arms in prayer - like a football
huddle.Baptists, Mormons, Jews, Quackers, Muslims, and
Buddahists.We talked of God, our common Father in Heaven - but were
instructed to be very careful to never use the terms - Jesus, YHWH or JHVH,
Allah, or Ganesha, Shiva, Krishna or Rama.Like the Founding Fathers
used the generic term - "Creator".But some are pushing an
agenda -- THAT I oppose.
It may surprise you that some people have actual real and heart felt belief in a
higher power and feel that acknowledging his/her existence and help might
actually help in the governing process. Since your worldview is apparently so
superior to those people maybe a little tolerance should be exercised.
@Mike Richards 1:24 a.m. May 7, 2014Once again you show that you
don't really understand the Constitution. The term "an
establishment" also means "an act of establishing". In other words,
either creating a religion or establishing that one religion has preference over
another religion or over no religion. The government is not allowed to do
either. You're right that government cannot dictate religions
doctrine; however, it can dictate what religions practices are legal (example --
the ban on the underage plural marriage promoted by Warren Jeffs and his group).
Government in the United States is, as it should be, secular in nature. Trying
to impose religion on it is not right, and should not be allowed.
Mr. Davis in the first paragraph makes it seem as if a "religious
ritual" is like making people sit through a 2 hour Temple session. A prayer
is only about 30 seconds and anyone can tolerate that if they are ADULT human
beings who are NOT LOOKING to be OFFENDED. If all of our public activities are
supposed to be Offense free, then we would need to take away the U.S. Flag,
because a lot of people in the world see that as offensive too. There are times
when the FEELINGS of the minority should just be ignored, because there is and
always will be some person who wants to take offense at anything done in the
public interest. No holidays, no National Anthem, no Pledge of Allegiance, no
flags, no team mascots, no nothing that might offend someone. Where do we draw
the line? I say way back at expecting people to be tolerant and adult and not
acting offended at every little trifle they don't agree with. What's
wrong with that?
@happy2bhere: "A prayer is only about 30 seconds and anyone can tolerate
that if they are ADULT human beings who are NOT LOOKING to be OFFENDED."So I am assuming you would have to problem with a Muslim or a witch
offering a prayer in a public meeting? You would defend both, and tell the
adults in the room to deal with it?
I don't think the Supreme Court decision established a State Religion... it
just didn't PROHIBIT prayer.===A moment of silence
would be fine with me. It's about the same thing. A prayer to open the
meeting is not intended to offend anybody. It is intended to give people a
moment to reflect and get in the right frame of mind. Whether a
moment of silence, or someone actually offers a prayer... it's all the same
to me. Because I always offer a little prayer in my own heart in these
situations. So it doesn't offend me at all if the person praying
isn't of my faith (or my party).But the Government should
absolutely NOT be in the business of PREVENTING PRAYER... anywhere... any
time.... Any faith... ====Everyone on the LEFT seems to
assume that prayers are used to offend... where does that mind-set come from?
Is that what THEY would use an opportunity to pray for??====Prayer is not intended to offend anybody.Maybe
there are a few people who would abuse it. But do you take away
EVERYBODY's right... because it may be abused .0001% of the time???
Nothing requires anybody to participate in the prayer. The ruling only allows
it to happen. As a surgeon I have often been invited to participate in family
prayers before I operate on a family member. The prayers/devotionals that were
close to my own form of worship were comfortable, those that were not close were
less so (and there have been some very unique ones). Nevertheless, I have been
respectful of their beliefs and have participated in them. And we have all been
the better for it.
@10CC,Yesterday on this same topic you said, "Slavery itself was
sanctioned by religion here (meaning Utah)"...I hope that was a
mis-speak.From Joseph Smith (the beginning) till today... the church
has NEVER endorsed SLAVERY.For a time some didn't receive the
priesthood... but that's not "Slavery". No LDS Prophet I know of
has endorsed SLAVERY...===RE: "In Kansas they
outlawed Sharia law, but Christian prayer is OK"...There's
a difference between wanting Sharia Law... and wanting to be free to pray if you
want. One is imposing your laws governing all areas of life on all
people. The other is ALLOWING people the Constitutionally protected freedom to
pray if they want!The government doesn't give us the right to
pray... They can only take it away.Why are you so intent on taking
it away??====Has a prayer in a meeting started a single
war? No... That's just pretense.Intolerance HAS caused
wars... but prohibiting prayer in meetings doesn't end that! You would
have to outlaw religion altogether.Do you intend to do THAT
eventually?Because that is what it would take (not just outlawing
prayer in public meetings).
Why are people afraid to ask God for help? My understanding of God, as a child,
is much different than my understanding of God as an adult. Should I have
waited until I was twenty to pray. How about waiting until I was sixty? At
what point would my prayer not offend someone who didn't believe in God?
We are the UNITED States. How do we become UNITED? When
politicians try to divide us by teaching envy and strife and greed, how can the
people offset that disharmony? I think that praying before meetings invites
into that meeting a spirit or sense of harmony. When we ask Him who lives in
complete harmony with all things, seen and unseen, to assist us, He will help.
But, He, who gave us agency, will not enter unless invited, leaving us in our
UN-UNITED state for as long as we wish, even if it destroys us.
@marxist,Why would anyone object if a prayer is offered, and it reflects
some beliefs of the community's predominate religion, or conservative
politics???All you need is a little tolerance... and you will get
through it with no damage.====Not all my family is LDS.
When we go to their house for dinner... I don't get offended because their
prayer on the food may be different than I may give! That's just absurd!
WHY would it offend me?====Just because someone attends
and decides to object to the fact that the local culture is reflected in the
prayer... should that one person who decides to be offended be able to restrict
the majority in the room from being able to pray?I don't think
so.They should just take this moment to have their own prayer in
their heart... and move on...That would be the "Tollerant"
thing to do.Not insist that because one person decides to be
offended NOBODY can pray....====I am never offended when
someone of another faith offers a prayer (and it happens frequently)... why the
Left is so offended... I'll NEVER understand.
Richard Davis is absolutely right, and the five-justice majority was absolutely
wrong.When a government entity places prayer on the official agenda,
that is an establishment of religion. When a person is invited to present the
"opening exercise" and chooses to pray, that is simply free speech and
is not an establishment of religion.As a Christian of the LDS
persuasion, I have long been disappointed that in these debates over public
prayer, crosses on public property, Ten Commandments monuments, Sunday closings,
etc., the primary instigators of divisiveness seem to be those who call
themselves Christians.By the way, in terms of the Constitution being
"divinely inspired," I believe the most inspired part of the
Constitution may be the provision to amend it, which allows us to correct the
parts that were not divinely inspired.
I will believe this is a religious liberty issue, and not a "We are the
Christian Majority issue" when SmallTown, USA allows a muslim to open a
meeting with a prayer.I would be willing to bet that if a muslim
asked to give the prayer in the town of Athens, it would be denied.This is a case of people wanting to wear their religion on their sleeves and
not in their hearts. Something they can do in public to make them feel good
about themselves.Remember the uproar a few years ago when a prayer
was offered on the 4th of July celebration in Spanish? That was just a few
years ago and in our very own State.
Re: ". . . perhaps it is possible to honor God and the Constitution at the
same time."Of course it is. But we'll have to just stop
listening to iconoclastic, thumb-in-the-eye atheists, as well as liberal
politicians and academics in the professional victimization industry, to make it
happen.The Constitution protects us from an overreaching,
unaccountable government establishing a state religion, as in England, Sweden,
or Iran. It also protects us from the establishment of a Christian-hating
secular church, along the lines of the one liberals and atheists constantly
insist we must establish, in order to please them.The Constitution
does not require us to tiptoe around atheists and academics, for fear that
something so integrated into our lives and society might give offense to someone
desperately seeking it.While academics bloviate over the issue and
atheists and disingenuous "Wiccans" sit and spin, real people will
continue to tolerate and respect the sincere religious beliefs of others, trying
our best to get along, in spite of academic and political advice to feel grossly
victimized and lash out.
Making up ideas that don't exist to perpetuate a concept that is not
reality. "I would be willing to bet that if a Muslim asked to give the
prayer in the town of Athens, it would be denied."The real facts
are they did seek other faiths to participate. When the two who brought the
suite were asked to identify any other faiths in the community that they could
ask to participate they could not identify one.
I disagree with Mr. Davis. Governments don't have to have prayers before
meetings. It is not a requirement. Those that choose to are not establishing
any religion or any religious preference. If they ask someone to give a prayer,
then fine. I've been in the Senate and heard the Senate chaplain give his
obviously Christian prayer. This happens every day at the opening on Senate
business. Sometimes others are invited to give the prayer. No one has really
crabbed about that and it is the same thing as what happens on the local level.
Give it a rest. Those that want to play the victim will always do so. My
advise? Ignore them.
Meanwhile -- on the other side of the world, Americans are fighting and
dying to keep Praying OUT of the Government!
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