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Comments about ‘Ostracized expression’

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Published: Monday, May 5 2014 9:07 a.m. MDT

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LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

Badgerbadger
Murray, UT
1. When someone is harrased ... for something they said -- call me.

Mobbed out of a job doesn't count?

I am calling you out now. Being mobbed out of a job is indeed harassment.

You are pure partisan.

2:02 p.m. May 5, 2014

========

If the CEO of a Corporation causes trouble to that Corporation,
and the Share-Holders and Boards of Directors have every right to "fire" him.

Their loyalty is with the Stock and Shares, NOT some guy and his rights.

Like I said -- no one was sent to jail for speaking.

Why don't you trying telling Racial or Chauvanistic slurs or jokes at work,
and let me know how long it took for YOU to get set to Human Resporces and get fired.

BTW -- You should be "Thanking" the us Liberals for passing laws that make it illegal to fire someone due to Race, Gender, Age, Religion, or Sexual Orientation.

Conservatives have been fighting against that since day one.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

@LDS Liberal

1. "When someone is harrased ... for something they said -- call me".

OK... I'm calling you. The guy from mozzila was harassed, and not even for something he SAID... just for making a small POLITICAL CONTRIBUTION!!!

He's not the first to be harassed by the Gay Maffia....

Google "Protests against Proposition 8 supporters" (wikipedia)... go to the "Boycots" and "Death threats and vandalism" sections...

Examples:
Scott Eckern, Artistic Director, California Musical Theatre. Resigned November 15, 2008.
Richard Raddon, Director, Los Angeles Film Festival. Resigned November 25, 2008
Marjorie Christoffersen, Manager, El Coyote Restaurant, Los Angeles, a lifelong Mormon. The restaurant was picketed after it was learned that Christofferson donated $100 to the Yes on 8 campaign...

Google "Bill Maher: ‘Gay mafia’ will take your career down ‘if you cross them’" Washington Times...

Google "Gay rights Protests Utah".... we had harassment right here in Utah! Churches were vandalized (in Utah and California) even Arson. Innocent people were harassed (on temple square, Main Street, Utah State Capitol, etc).

Google "Churches Vandalized Over Prop 8"...

Google "Prop. 8 passage spawns protests, violence and vandalism"...

Vandalism, arson, intimidation... That is harassment...

RedShirtUofU
Andoria, UT

To "LDS Liberal" you realize that the restrictions on being able to fire somebody because of race, gender, age, religion, or orientation could be argued as going against the First Ammendment. By making it illegal to fire people because of those reasons, you are restricting me from being able to hire/fire people based on my thoughts. You are in effect restricting my freedom of speech to declare those that are not like me unworthy to work for/with me.

Interloper
Portland, OR

I want to clarify that I was offering a professional, not a personal, opinion when I said First Amendment protections of expression only apply to governments. That has been the legal understanding of the First Amendment since its inception. The line of cases that make it clear that actions by non-governmental parties don't violate the U.S. Constitution is New York Times v. Sullivan (1964). In that case, white businessmen and public officials in the South tried to muzzle civil rights organizations such as NAACP, claiming the groups' protests of segregation defamed them. They also sued news organizations to prevent them from reporting news about civil rights. The New York Times won the case, with the U.S. Supreme Court ruling newspapers could report any news, including involving public officials or public figures, as long as there was no evidence of actual malice, i.e., recklessness or knowing the report to be false.

It is telling people are offering the same defense of bigots like Sterling and Bundy - neither the public nor the press should be allowed to criticize them. That wasn't true in 1964. It isn't true now.

Res Novae
Ashburn, VA

If you don't understand that the 1st Amendment applies only to government proscription of speech and not to private sanctions, you've taken yourself out of the argument from the get-go.

The Real Maverick
Orem, UT

Sounds to me like some people can dish it out but can't take it.

What happened when the overbearing conservative British wouldn't give us our rights? We dropped tea into Boston Harbor. Real patriots, not the am radio armchair ones. These folks protested what is known as the Boston Tea Party. We still study it in history classes despite it happening over 200 years ago.

What happened when women weren't given their rights? They protested. Real patriots protested against the conservatives until the rest of the nation woke up.

What happened when blacks weren't given their rights? They protested. Real patriots marched on Washington DC. A certain Martin. Luther King Jr gave a speech called "I Have A Dream." Many conservatives fought it. Many labeled King as a traitor! They asked to see his birth certificate too! But the country continued to progress. Conservatives have tried to stop progress for over 200 years. They have failed time after time.

Protest is as American as apple pie. If you folks don't like gays protesting for their rights then go to a country that doesn't protest. This nation will continue to progress, with or without ya!

liberal larry
salt lake City, utah

People's rights are always being trumped by other rights that are perceived to contribute to the greater good of society. Remember the old saying:

"Your right to swing your arm ends where my nose begins"

Most people feel the right to live freely, without discrimination, supersedes the "right" to discriminate based on race, creed, or color. (and more arguably, sexual preference}

RFLASH
Salt Lake City, UT

Why do people lie? The CEO was not forced to leave his office, he resigned. Perhaps it was caused by the very same freedom of speech and religion that you refer to! There are those that have the freedom to speak back! Freedom of speech is two sided, you know! So, yes, you love that freedom of speech, when it works for you! You love it when your freedom of religion allows you to dictate what happens in the lives of others. So, why are you so upset? You are upset because you do not want it to be two sided! You use your freedom of religion to believe that same sex marriage is bad! Guess what, I use my freedom of religion to know that God gives me the very same right to believe that being gay is not a sin! You use your freedom of speech to deny gay people the right to marry. We use are freedom of speech to fight back and to defend ourselves! Sure you love it when it works for you! It is different when it works for us, isn't it! Is it that hard to understand?

Unreconstructed Reb
Chantilly, VA

"[Y]ou realize that the restrictions on being able to fire somebody because of race, gender, age, religion, or orientation could be argued as going against the First Ammendment. You are in effect restricting my freedom of speech to declare those that are not like me unworthy to work for/with me."

Absolutely wrong, and anyone with a high school understanding of civics should see why. Your right to free speech ends when it causes harm to others. Firing someone on the basis of race, gender, religion, etc., creates a presumption of harm, and therefore does not have the right to be called free speech. You also run into a 14th Amendment issue which also trumps claims to free speech.

The Constitution confers the right to free speech. But inherent in that right are parameters on its use which are necessary for the common good.

utah chick
cedar city, UT

Badgerbadger

"1. When someone is harrased ... for something they said -- call me.

Mobbed out of a job doesn't count?"

I have dealt with major fallout for stuff I said in a public forum. Stuff I never attached my employers name to. The dogpile I dealt with was really crappy. I'm still at my job site and I'm still employed.

My point....I dealt with some massive crap after I said what I said. Was I fired, no. Was I a pariah, oh yes.

Words have consequences. Don't ever doubt that.

Ranch
Here, UT

@2bits;

Tolerance and "live and let live" would have been to never have had a prop-8 or amendment-3 to begin with for these people to have donated to/voted on.

Instead, the intolerant 'religious' put the rights of other Americans on the ballot. These intolerant 'religious' people attempted to strip marriage from their fellow Americans, and in the case of Mozilla's CEO he felt a backlash for his efforts. His "political contribution" wasn't actually a "political contribution", it was a contribution to violate someone elses rights.

Tolerance works both ways and as your Jesus said: "You reap what you sow".

@Badgerbadger;

Have you stood up to defend those LGBT individuals who've been fired simply for being LGBT? I didn't think so.

@2bits;

Until you have proof that the "vandalism" of your churches was done by LGBT, then you should stop saying we did it; as far as I'm concerned it was done by Mormons wanting to get some sympathy after their prop-h8 fiasco.

Open Minded Mormon
Everett, 00

RedShirtUofU
Andoria, UT
To "LDS Liberal" you realize that the restrictions on being able to fire somebody because of race, gender, age, religion, or orientation could be argued as going against the First Ammendment. By making it illegal to fire people because of those reasons, you are restricting me from being able to hire/fire people based on my thoughts. You are in effect restricting my freedom of speech to declare those that are not like me unworthy to work for/with me.

2:53 p.m. May 5, 2014

========

To "RedShirtUofU" you realize that the 2nd amendment doesn't allow you to have nuclear weapons, biological weapons, or chemical weapons.

You realize that the 1st Amendment doesn't allow you wto worship using Human Sacrifices.

You realize that free press doesn't allow you to produce child pornography.

No RedShirtUofU, America is not the home of the Free to do whatever the you want to.

UTCProgress
American Fork, UT

Mr. Bender (like many Americans) is confused by the 1st amendment protections offered in the Constitution. There is no guarantee that you can say or do what you want without consequence, only that the government cannot legally stop you from saying whatever you want (unless it puts others in danger). To paraphrase the famous Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, "Mr. Eich may have a constitutional right to talk politics, but he has no constitutional right to be a CEO."

We are all subject to the consequences of our speech, both societally and economically. Speak up if you must, but be prepared to pay the price for it.

RedShirtUofU
Andoria, UT

To "Open Minded Mormon" yes, I do realize that government has put limits on the Constitutional rights that we have.

Just like yelling fire in a crowded theater is against the law.

You are right, the US is not a place where you can do what you want to do. It never has been. That is what laws are for. The problem is that the government is becoming more and more of a nanny and micromanaging our lives.

Why can't a person fire employees based on whatever bias they may have? Would you want to work for a person who hates you?

airnaut
Everett, 00

RedShirtUofU
Andoria, UT

Why can't a person fire employees based on whatever bias they may have? Would you want to work for a person who hates you?

8:31 a.m. May 6, 2014

=======

This is Utah.
Utah is a "right to work" state.

meaning: In Utah, you can be fired for any rhymne and for any reason -- YOU the perosn have Zero rights, and rights belong to the employer.

The only way around this is to use Federal Laws.

RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

To "airnaut" you sound like you now agree that Federal Law does in fact implement a thought police that prevents you from exercising your freedom of speech or association by firing employees that you do not for whatever biased reason you may have.

Candied Ginger
Brooklyn, OH

RedShirt

"Why can't a person fire employees based on whatever bias they may have? Would you want to work for a person who hates you?"

I actually have worked for people who hated me. The first time was uncomfortable and stressful and I left after a few months. The second time I needed the job and liked what I was doing so I changed my paradigm. Instead of resisting I was like water - this was early in my Taoist studies. She was intent on winning. My goal was to not lose. She came off like a raging psycho, hated by her employees and disdained by her boss. I was producer of the quarter twice, she was written up, demoted and then finally fired.

It was fun.

In retrospect I wish I had documented what she was doing and gone to the EEOC. I wasn't the only employee she hated, and she hurt a lot of people. An EEOC case would have shut her down and protected people who weren't able to stand up to her.

RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

To "Candied Ginger" I don't think you realized what you did for your boss that hated lots of people. You made that boss look good, and appear to be good leader that inspires people to work hard and get things done. You actually gave that person more power.

Had you and the other people that were hated quit and spoken with HR on the way out, you actually could have done more against that person.

Happy Valley Heretic
Orem, UT

..and then you have Utah's "Free Speech Zones" placed so far from an event as to literally quash any actual free speech.
but that's OK, it protected visiting Conservatives.

RedShirtCalTech
Pasedena, CA

To "Happy Valley Heretic" I don't know what your complaint is about. You realize that putting free speech zones far away from the event they are protesting is also common among liberals. Just look at the news articles from 2004 and the Republican National Convention in New York. The city of New York separated them by 3 miles. That was not a conservative decision, but a liberal one.

We know you hate conservatives, but you could at least find something that your ilk doesn't also do before you complain.

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