Published: Monday, May 5 2014 12:00 a.m. MDT
BadgerbadgerMurray, UT1. When someone is harrased ... for something
they said -- call me.Mobbed out of a job doesn't count? I am calling you out now. Being mobbed out of a job is indeed
harassment. You are pure partisan.2:02 p.m. May 5,
2014======== If the CEO of a Corporation causes trouble
to that Corporation, and the Share-Holders and Boards of Directors have
every right to "fire" him.Their loyalty is with the Stock
and Shares, NOT some guy and his rights.Like I said -- no one was
sent to jail for speaking.Why don't you trying telling Racial
or Chauvanistic slurs or jokes at work, and let me know how long it took
for YOU to get set to Human Resporces and get fired.BTW -- You
should be "Thanking" the us Liberals for passing laws that make it
illegal to fire someone due to Race, Gender, Age, Religion, or Sexual
Orientation.Conservatives have been fighting against that since day
@LDS Liberal1. "When someone is harrased ... for something they
said -- call me".OK... I'm calling you. The guy from
mozzila was harassed, and not even for something he SAID... just for making a
small POLITICAL CONTRIBUTION!!!He's not the first to be
harassed by the Gay Maffia....Google "Protests against
Proposition 8 supporters" (wikipedia)... go to the "Boycots" and
"Death threats and vandalism" sections...Examples:Scott Eckern, Artistic Director, California Musical Theatre. Resigned November
15, 2008.Richard Raddon, Director, Los Angeles Film Festival. Resigned
November 25, 2008 Marjorie Christoffersen, Manager, El Coyote Restaurant,
Los Angeles, a lifelong Mormon. The restaurant was picketed after it was learned
that Christofferson donated $100 to the Yes on 8 campaign...Google
"Bill Maher: ‘Gay mafia’ will take your career down ‘if
you cross them’" Washington Times...Google "Gay rights
Protests Utah".... we had harassment right here in Utah! Churches were
vandalized (in Utah and California) even Arson. Innocent people were harassed
(on temple square, Main Street, Utah State Capitol, etc).Google
"Churches Vandalized Over Prop 8"...Google "Prop. 8
passage spawns protests, violence and vandalism"...Vandalism,
arson, intimidation... That is harassment...
To "LDS Liberal" you realize that the restrictions on being able to fire
somebody because of race, gender, age, religion, or orientation could be argued
as going against the First Ammendment. By making it illegal to fire people
because of those reasons, you are restricting me from being able to hire/fire
people based on my thoughts. You are in effect restricting my freedom of speech
to declare those that are not like me unworthy to work for/with me.
I want to clarify that I was offering a professional, not a personal, opinion
when I said First Amendment protections of expression only apply to governments.
That has been the legal understanding of the First Amendment since its
inception. The line of cases that make it clear that actions by
non-governmental parties don't violate the U.S. Constitution is New York
Times v. Sullivan (1964). In that case, white businessmen and public officials
in the South tried to muzzle civil rights organizations such as NAACP, claiming
the groups' protests of segregation defamed them. They also sued news
organizations to prevent them from reporting news about civil rights. The New
York Times won the case, with the U.S. Supreme Court ruling newspapers could
report any news, including involving public officials or public figures, as long
as there was no evidence of actual malice, i.e., recklessness or knowing the
report to be false.It is telling people are offering the same
defense of bigots like Sterling and Bundy - neither the public nor the press
should be allowed to criticize them. That wasn't true in 1964. It
isn't true now.
If you don't understand that the 1st Amendment applies only to government
proscription of speech and not to private sanctions, you've taken yourself
out of the argument from the get-go.
Sounds to me like some people can dish it out but can't take it. What happened when the overbearing conservative British wouldn't give us
our rights? We dropped tea into Boston Harbor. Real patriots, not the am radio
armchair ones. These folks protested what is known as the Boston Tea Party. We
still study it in history classes despite it happening over 200 years ago.What happened when women weren't given their rights? They
protested. Real patriots protested against the conservatives until the rest of
the nation woke up.What happened when blacks weren't given
their rights? They protested. Real patriots marched on Washington DC. A certain
Martin. Luther King Jr gave a speech called "I Have A Dream." Many
conservatives fought it. Many labeled King as a traitor! They asked to see his
birth certificate too! But the country continued to progress. Conservatives have
tried to stop progress for over 200 years. They have failed time after time.Protest is as American as apple pie. If you folks don't like gays
protesting for their rights then go to a country that doesn't protest. This
nation will continue to progress, with or without ya!
People's rights are always being trumped by other rights that are
perceived to contribute to the greater good of society. Remember the old
saying:"Your right to swing your arm ends where my nose
begins" Most people feel the right to live freely, without
discrimination, supersedes the "right" to discriminate based on race,
creed, or color. (and more arguably, sexual preference}
Why do people lie? The CEO was not forced to leave his office, he resigned.
Perhaps it was caused by the very same freedom of speech and religion that you
refer to! There are those that have the freedom to speak back! Freedom of speech
is two sided, you know! So, yes, you love that freedom of speech, when it works
for you! You love it when your freedom of religion allows you to dictate what
happens in the lives of others. So, why are you so upset? You are upset because
you do not want it to be two sided! You use your freedom of religion to believe
that same sex marriage is bad! Guess what, I use my freedom of religion to know
that God gives me the very same right to believe that being gay is not a sin!
You use your freedom of speech to deny gay people the right to marry. We use are
freedom of speech to fight back and to defend ourselves! Sure you love it when
it works for you! It is different when it works for us, isn't it! Is it
that hard to understand?
"[Y]ou realize that the restrictions on being able to fire somebody because
of race, gender, age, religion, or orientation could be argued as going against
the First Ammendment. You are in effect restricting my freedom of speech to
declare those that are not like me unworthy to work for/with me."Absolutely wrong, and anyone with a high school understanding of civics should
see why. Your right to free speech ends when it causes harm to others. Firing
someone on the basis of race, gender, religion, etc., creates a presumption of
harm, and therefore does not have the right to be called free speech. You also
run into a 14th Amendment issue which also trumps claims to free speech. The Constitution confers the right to free speech. But inherent in that
right are parameters on its use which are necessary for the common good.
Badgerbadger"1. When someone is harrased ... for something they
said -- call me.Mobbed out of a job doesn't count?"I have dealt with major fallout for stuff I said in a public forum.
Stuff I never attached my employers name to. The dogpile I dealt with was
really crappy. I'm still at my job site and I'm still employed. My point....I dealt with some massive crap after I said what I said.
Was I fired, no. Was I a pariah, oh yes.Words have consequences.
Don't ever doubt that.
@2bits;Tolerance and "live and let live" would have been to
never have had a prop-8 or amendment-3 to begin with for these people to have
donated to/voted on.Instead, the intolerant 'religious'
put the rights of other Americans on the ballot. These intolerant
'religious' people attempted to strip marriage from their fellow
Americans, and in the case of Mozilla's CEO he felt a backlash for his
efforts. His "political contribution" wasn't actually a
"political contribution", it was a contribution to violate someone elses
rights.Tolerance works both ways and as your Jesus said: "You
reap what you sow".@Badgerbadger;Have you stood up
to defend those LGBT individuals who've been fired simply for being LGBT?
I didn't think so.@2bits;Until you have proof that
the "vandalism" of your churches was done by LGBT, then you should stop
saying we did it; as far as I'm concerned it was done by Mormons wanting to
get some sympathy after their prop-h8 fiasco.
RedShirtUofUAndoria, UTTo "LDS Liberal" you realize that the
restrictions on being able to fire somebody because of race, gender, age,
religion, or orientation could be argued as going against the First Ammendment.
By making it illegal to fire people because of those reasons, you are
restricting me from being able to hire/fire people based on my thoughts. You are
in effect restricting my freedom of speech to declare those that are not like me
unworthy to work for/with me.2:53 p.m. May 5, 2014======== To "RedShirtUofU" you realize that the 2nd
amendment doesn't allow you to have nuclear weapons, biological weapons, or
chemical weapons.You realize that the 1st Amendment doesn't
allow you wto worship using Human Sacrifices.You realize that free
press doesn't allow you to produce child pornography.No
RedShirtUofU, America is not the home of the Free to do whatever the you want
Mr. Bender (like many Americans) is confused by the 1st amendment protections
offered in the Constitution. There is no guarantee that you can say or do what
you want without consequence, only that the government cannot legally stop you
from saying whatever you want (unless it puts others in danger). To paraphrase
the famous Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, "Mr. Eich may have a
constitutional right to talk politics, but he has no constitutional right to be
a CEO."We are all subject to the consequences of our speech,
both societally and economically. Speak up if you must, but be prepared to pay
the price for it.
To "Open Minded Mormon" yes, I do realize that government has put limits
on the Constitutional rights that we have.Just like yelling fire in
a crowded theater is against the law.You are right, the US is not a
place where you can do what you want to do. It never has been. That is what
laws are for. The problem is that the government is becoming more and more of a
nanny and micromanaging our lives.Why can't a person fire
employees based on whatever bias they may have? Would you want to work for a
person who hates you?
RedShirtUofUAndoria, UTWhy can't a person fire employees
based on whatever bias they may have? Would you want to work for a person who
hates you?8:31 a.m. May 6, 2014======= This
is Utah.Utah is a "right to work" state.meaning: In
Utah, you can be fired for any rhymne and for any reason -- YOU the perosn have
Zero rights, and rights belong to the employer.The only way around
this is to use Federal Laws.
To "airnaut" you sound like you now agree that Federal Law does in fact
implement a thought police that prevents you from exercising your freedom of
speech or association by firing employees that you do not for whatever biased
reason you may have.
RedShirt"Why can't a person fire employees based on
whatever bias they may have? Would you want to work for a person who hates
you?"I actually have worked for people who hated me. The first
time was uncomfortable and stressful and I left after a few months. The second
time I needed the job and liked what I was doing so I changed my paradigm.
Instead of resisting I was like water - this was early in my Taoist studies. She
was intent on winning. My goal was to not lose. She came off like a raging
psycho, hated by her employees and disdained by her boss. I was producer of the
quarter twice, she was written up, demoted and then finally fired. It was fun. In retrospect I wish I had documented what she was
doing and gone to the EEOC. I wasn't the only employee she hated, and she
hurt a lot of people. An EEOC case would have shut her down and protected people
who weren't able to stand up to her.
To "Candied Ginger" I don't think you realized what you did for
your boss that hated lots of people. You made that boss look good, and appear
to be good leader that inspires people to work hard and get things done. You
actually gave that person more power.Had you and the other people
that were hated quit and spoken with HR on the way out, you actually could have
done more against that person.
..and then you have Utah's "Free Speech Zones" placed so far from
an event as to literally quash any actual free speech.but that's OK,
it protected visiting Conservatives.
To "Happy Valley Heretic" I don't know what your complaint is
about. You realize that putting free speech zones far away from the event they
are protesting is also common among liberals. Just look at the news articles
from 2004 and the Republican National Convention in New York. The city of New
York separated them by 3 miles. That was not a conservative decision, but a
liberal one.We know you hate conservatives, but you could at least
find something that your ilk doesn't also do before you complain.
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