Zero rational from the "State" ...There are only three
states that do NOT have anit-gay lawsuits in progress. Please
provide a logical answer to this question: "How does my gay marriage
diminish your straight marriage in any way?"
@MoNoMo 5:47 p.m. April 28, 2014 Please provide a logical answer to
this question: "How does my gay marriage diminish your straight marriage in
any way?"-----------------------That's an easy
one to answer. My husband and I have been married almost 45 years. Your gay
marriage does not affect our straight marriage in any way. We're the only
ones who can enhance or diminish our marriage, and we work all the time to keep
it going strong. We're the only ones who can affect our marriage.
Marriage is the union of a man and a woman as husband and wife. No man can be a
wife, no woman can be a husband. No man can be a mother, no woman can be a
father. Not in any state and regardless of how laws may be changed by vote, by
legislation or by judicial decision.Not accepting someone
else’s lifestyle does not equal hatred and intolerance. We show, all
should show, compassion, respect, and kindness to everyone—including
people with whom we disagree. It is not hatred or intolerance to work for and
uphold societal standards and morals.
@MoNoMo "How does my gay marriage diminish your straight marriage in
any way?"Answer: It does not - and should not - because one is a
marriage, the other is not.
Please provide a logical answer to this question: "How does my gay marriage
diminish your straight marriage in any way?"Straw man
argument... Gay marriage doesn't hurt my marriage but that's not why I
am against it. Gay marriage is about normalizing an immoral
behavior. Further, children deserve to be raised in a home with a mother & a
father. Gay marriage will open the gates to gay partners adopting children which
will deprive these children of a Mother or a Father.
"Here, none could contend that Utah's marriage definition is designed
to have or actually has a disparate impact on men or women as a class,"
Schaerr wrote.Yeah that's all well and good, but it has a
disparate impact on gay people as a class.@El Chango Supremo"Gay marriage will open the gates to gay partners adopting children which
will deprive these children of a Mother or a Father."Utah allows
single people to adopt so this argument can't be used by Utah without
acknowledging a double standard.
"How does my gay marriage diminish your straight marriage in any
way?"It diminishes the sanctity of marriage. Marriage is, by
definition, between a man and a woman. Trying to change the definition to
include homosexual couples diminishes the sanctity of it, as Rocket Science
points out.Can I, as a man, ever become the Queen of England?
Schnee...Whatever the law currently is regarding adoption, married
heterosexual couples should get priority so that the child will get the next
best thing which is being raised by their biological parents. I
don't by the argument that the gender of a parent is irrelevant. Mothers
& Fathers bring very different qualities to the parenting table that the
other can't adequately replace. This isn't rocket science, this is
common sense. If I lost my dad, a woman can't replace his role. It's also simple, common sense that men & women belong together
biologically. It's the way we're made.
Being Gay is not even a marriage. A marriage is between a woman and a man. No
matter how people will try to justify it, it is not going to work. Marriage is
just like burgers and fries, one can't go without the other. Fries cannot
fulfill what a burger does, and vise-versa. It goes the same way with a man and
woman. A woman will never be a man and and man can never be a woman. That is
why a man is for the woman and woman is for the man. So no to gay marriage.
Gay marriage does not diminish my straight marriage. It does worse. Gay marriage
hastens the moral decline of our nation which will bring about the judgments of
God. Those judgments will adversely affect all society including me and my
spouse and my children. Gay marriage advocates don't seem to get that it is
all about preserving traditional Christian values in an increasingly godless
Again it befuddles me that in this state where Polygamy was the norm a one time,
that people can talk with a straight face that Marriage is between a man and a
woman? There are so many children raised by people that don't conform to
the Man/Woman perfect marriage!The question as asked if gay marriage
affects the right for straights to marry? It does not. So stop with
the judgmental morality that many Christian churches do not adhere to anymore.
It's getting boring.
@Rocket Science;Accept our "lifestyle" or not, you
don't get to tell us who we may or may not marry. That is not your right.
Discrimination is based on some level of dislike no matter how you slice it.
Dislike is just another form of hate. It is absolutely intolerance to deny
others the legal benefits you enjoy - and there is nothing immoral about LGBT
couples forming. Nothing.@Kouger;Wrong.@El
Chango Supremo;Bigotry is immoral and you seem to be okay
"normalizing" that behavior.@Riverton Cougar;The
only people who diminish the "sanctity of marriage" are you
heterosexuals who are married and cheat on your spouses.@BlackDiamond;Say yes to marriage for LGBT people.Utah's arguments are completely nonsensical and discriminatory. Marriage
equality will be the law of the land, even Utah.
There is perhaps not a hotter issue today than the issue of same sex attraction
and marriage, and under normal conditions I would offer an explanation .
However, due to the idiocy of this type of thinking I am relegated to silence.
Ranch Hand:Do you think siblings should be allowed to marry? parents
to children? The state does tell people who can & can't
marry? 1. consenting age2. opposite sex3. not closely
related4. not currently married to anotherHow can we argue
that one should be thrown out and not the others?
@serious"Do you think siblings should be allowed to marry? parents to
children?"Not if the state can provide rational, legitimate
reasons to ban such marriage. The problem for gay marriage ban is
that the state can not give rational reason for such law, their arguments have
not prevailed, not even once since SCOTUS Windsor ruling.
What is the rational reason why an adult man should not be able to marry his
adult sister if both are sterile? What is the rational reason that that two
brothers or two sisters should not be allowed to marry? If biology is not a
rational reason to allow or deny marriage, what is?
The solution is simple. Just give Gay couples the same legal rights, just
don't call it marriage. Call it Gay union or anything you want. Is that
too much to ask from the Gay community. Both sides have to be willing to give a
little on this one. Protesting, holding, up signs and getting in each others
faces will only increase the animosity on both sides.
Article IV of the constitution, and the much more often cited, and almost as
important to the argument, 14th amendment to the constitution, place
overwhelming weight on the side of marriage, same gender and opposite gender, as
a civil right to be protected by the federal government in all states of the
@MoNoMo"How does my gay marriage diminish your straight marriage
in any way?"Your same-sex relationship by itself would not
affect any marriage between a man and a woman. The effect comes when the state
changes the definition of marriage in order to sanction your same-sex
relationship. Laws teach something about what society values, and changing laws
changes how people think. No-fault divorce laws passed in the 1970's had
drastic effects on how people thought about marriage, and divorce rates
skyrocketed. No one lives in a vacuum. Changing the legal
definition of marriage matters to everyone, every man, every woman every child.
It is absolutely foolish to think we can change the most fundamental unit of our
society and think it won't have repercussions.
Same old pro-gay statements from the same old commenters on this site. Really
folks, do you just seek out headlines so you can propagandize with your
comments? Maybe if you were to read the briefs you would understand the
pro-marriage stance...not one of discrimination but one of protecting children.
Or don't children's rights matter? I really wish the anti-Christian
hate speech and attacks would end.
Marriage was created in the first place because man and woman had families and
someone had to stay home and raise them. Benefits were given to help them if one
should die and the other could get benefits because they were notable to
work while the children were young. I cannot see why a same sex couple could
have children without adopting other children. Why can't they have
another union that is not called marriage do just as well?
Marriage is a civil contract creating a legal relationship between two legal
strangers, giving certain benefits, rights, responsibilities, and remedies.Siblings, and parents and children, have a defined legal relationship
that precludes marriage. Children are not able to legally consent to
civil contracts, including marriage. Animals, plants, and inanimate
objects are not able to give legal consent for any civil contract, including
marriage. Legalizing polygamy will regulate it, giving protections,
benefits, and remedies, making it less likely to be coercive or abusive.
Polygamy will require a different legal structure because it includes multiple
consenting adults, which will complicate the legal situation. Same-sex marriage will allow same-sex couples to get married. Nothing more,
arand says:"Just give Gay couples the same legal rights, just
don't call it marriage. Call it Gay union or anything you want. Is that too
much to ask from the Gay community. "Yes, it is too much to ask.
LGBT couples marrying has no affect on you. None. Besides, Amendment 3
prevents your solution anyway (you wanted to give us nothing initially, now
you're offering "civil union" but we're going to win marriage
rights).@El Chango Supremo says:"What is the
rational reason why an adult man should not be able to marry his adult sister
..."Marriage creates a familial bond where none previously
exists. Hence there is no need to marry your mother, sister, father, brother in
order to create that bond.
Serious says:"Do you think siblings should be allowed to marry?
parents to children?" (familial bond already exists).The state
does tell people who can & can't marry? 1. consenting age
(Rational)2. opposite sex (Irrational)3. not closely related
(Rational)4. not currently married to another (Rational)How
can we argue that one should be thrown out and not the others? (Do you see how
one of your situations is not rational but the others are?)@LibertyInLaw;It is absolutely foolish to think marriage of LGBT
couples is going to have "repercussions" other than we'll be
married.@Brown;Denying LGBT marriage does absolutely
nothing to "protect the children". Nothing.
Justice Anthony Kennedy who is usually the "swing vote" on the U.S.
Supreme Court has made this issue very plain. It is a matter of the "voice
of the people" as seen in the state system to decide the morality of that
particular state. Charles Krauthammer has weighed in also on this subject. He
believes that it is the "mood of the country" to allow gay marriage.
However, the basis of this must come from the people and not from individual
judges. The courts are there to enforce the law. They are not there to
"makes the laws". This is the duty of the people. This issue for Utah
looks bleak in light of what happened with Proposition 8 in California.
Nevertheless, implications are there for other issues such as education. The
U.S. Constitution states that education is a "state function". The
current administration believes that it is the right of the federal government.
This dovetails with the current issue because it would appear that "common
core" is only one more way of reeducating the "young people" to the
acceptance of gay issues.
Not one good argument against same sex marriage here, again. Some say it will
destroy the country (does not that Beck dude say God whispered in his ear
something to that effect?). Some say it is just icky. Some say children will
suffer. Some employ the vacuous use of the slippery slope argumentation. And
lastly, some just use religion.If history shows us anything, it
shows us these arguments are the last resort of those who know the argument is
lost. I find smoking icky, but grant others the right to pursue this habit. I
avoid the logic of people who claim God whispers in their ears, as this is
usually a sign of mental illness. I listen to professionals who know that
children are not harmed by same sex parents. And even most fools know the
slippery slope form of argumentation is logically invalid.Most young
adults, regardless of their faith traditions, recognize these arguments are
devoid of anything but pure prejudice and are logically devoid of reason. I
think it is time that we listen to the youth.
Civil Union/Gay Marriage.Those words have the same meaning. Marriage
definition: the formal union of a man and a woman, typically recognized
by law, by which they become husband and wife.Constitutional in principle,
civil unions must have the same legal rights, between them, as a marriage does.
Those rights spelled out in a legal contract, as a marriage.This the true
goal of same-sex marriage. If it is then let the laws reflect the truth:Marriage definition can't be same-sex, there is civil unions, which
should have the same legal benefits under laws; like tax, or social
security/health and retirement benefits.Those rights being protected just
the same as a marriage partnership offers. The difference would actually have
the opportunity to define this new partnership as prenuptial agreements do for
marriages. Specific rights would be in writing and understood by both partners.
This distinction protects the rights of both groups' beliefs.
Constitutional laws protect the rights of personal beliefs. By this
compromise between both parties a just solution can be achieved. Defend
the rights of both sides of this issue with fairness. If you agree with my
assessment make it known with your voices.
If the 10th is looking for some anti SSM evidence to weigh, they need look no
further than at some of the comments on this story. It's obvious the love
thy neighbor crowd isn't present. I think the level of intolerance
displayed by these comments is both sad and disturbing. Especially when the
actions of others would have absolutely no effect on the lives of those who
protest the loudest.
Why must it be called a marriage? It is a civil union. Allowing other citizens
the right to chose for themselves what lifestyle they would embrace is not the
same as teaching their choice as a recommended way of life to your children. So
we walk a delicate path of protecting individual rights of choice and defending
our own right of choice in our schools and other places of gathering. Tolerance for others rights with respect for our choice when it comes to
teaching our own children the principles of a happy fulfilled life, obeying the
commands of our conscience. Because of the fact that children are impressionable
and do not have founded psychological beliefs in experience and outcomes, we who
have the responsibility to nurture and guide belief structure have the ultimate
say in what should be and not be taught as a viable lifestyle for them until
they are adults. Homosexual partnerships without science intervention cannot
produce offspring, this is the facts. So nature has female and male as a parent
structure and is the natural means of raising young humans to adulthood. Beyond
those facts this is fairly new territory, protecting freedom of choice for both.
Re: "How does my gay marriage diminish your straight marriage in any
way?"It diminishes its value. It makes it less worthwhile. It
makes it less holy, less special. But, most of all, it attempts to legitimize
acts, a perspective, a lifestyle that are universally acknowledged -- at least
among objective, unbiased, and unselfishly un-self-interested observers -- as
inimical to the family and its many benefits to our society and to the
individuals that comprise it.LGBT Americans are as entitled as other
Americans to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But that pursuit is
limited, by law, to activities not harmful of the rights of others.Real people bear LGBT no ill will in their pursuit of protection of pecuniary
rights. But, their unfair, scatter-shot, oppressive, confrontational, ultimately
unconstitutional approach is extremely dangerous to the rest of us.Its focus is not limited to protection of acknowledged rights, but on creation
of new rights.Those new rights amount to thought control and a very
real threat to our Constitutionally protected right to disagree with their odd,
minoritarian definitions of virtue and decency.
The constitutional cure: Civil Union (Marriage) license/ Marriage License. If
both have the same power under law but show the difference in the meaning of the
word marriage. That way we don't have to change dictionary meaning and
protect the beliefs of those that base religious faith on its meaning. Now we
are arguing over nothing. Rights are preserved.
If it seems familiar....it is:1) First, judges claimed that marriage
belonged under the control of the states rather than the federal government.2) Second, they began to define and label all interracial relationships
(even longstanding, deeply committed ones) as illicit sex rather than
marriage.3) Third, they insisted that interracial marriage was
contrary to God's will, and4) Fourth, they declared, over and
over again, that interracial marriage was somehow "unnatural."To the religious arguments, do us all a favor and stop using religion as a
moral fig leaf for your naked prejudice.
@Brown 7:22 a.m. April 29, 2014Let me correct your comments and make
them accurate:Same old anti-gay statements from the same old
commenters on this site. Really folks, do you just seek out headlines so you can
propagandize with your comments? Maybe if you were to read the briefs you would
understand the pro-gay-marriage stance...not one of discrimination but one of
protecting children. Or don't children's rights matter? I really wish
the anti-gay hate speech and attacks would end.Okay -- fixed.
Kouger says that a gay marriage is not a real marriage.Many
religions would agree with you. The Catholic church says a validly contracted
marriage lasts forever, and that my 35 year long marriage is not "real"
because in the late 1970s, my husband and I were each of us was divorced from
our former spouses. But we have freedom of religion in the US, and each of us
have civil rights, even if some churches don't agree. America is not Iran.
Neither is Utah.
Polygamy was 'not' the norm. It was accepted, but practiced by a very
small percentage. Marriage is a religious 'rite' not right. Always has
been and should be protected under the 1st amendment. However, belief that
people have the freedom to choose their own path also exists. The only way that
this situation can be fairly resolved without stomping on the rights AND beliefs
of others is to allow legal coupling for 'civil unions' but setting
any and all legal applicable rights as equal to that of marriage.
This isn't about the children, and protecting the children. That's a
separate issue entirely in law. This is about bigotry, and the unwillingness of
some to live their own lives in as moral a manner as they like, while others do
the same.Also, separate but equal has been tried in the USA. It
doesn't work, and it won't work here.At the end of all
this money being spent and hand-wringing by opponents, gay marriage will be the
law of the land. It is the only position that logic and rationality bring one
to. Those who oppose it will someday be remembered the same way that those who
opposed racial civil rights are remembered.
@arand: Big problem.Utah Amendment 3 says - Article I,
Section 29. [Marriage.] (1) Marriage consists only of the
legal union between a man and a woman. (2) No other domestic
union, however denominated, may be recognized as a marriage or given the same or
substantially equivalent legal effect.so - give a little? Not much
room, is there.
Marriage has always been about inter-family alliances, inheritance, and rights
of survivorship. In that past in most cases the people may not even have known
each other before marriage. Daughters were married off to the sons of other
families along with a dowry.A "traditional marriage" was
never about "love", although it would form later in many cases. Getting
married for love is a very new idea in human history.Also, the
religions adopted marriage as another rite. Marriage existed long before the
churches managed to pull it in.I can't really believe that the
opponents are down to arguing for "separate but equal" and the
definition of a word that is secular in origin.
Until two men can conceive a baby together, the conclusion that homosexuality is
normal and natural just doesn't hold water. That said, you
probably are entitled by the US Constitution to the right to "pursue"
your "happiness". One day, we will all learn what we are entitled to
and what we are NOT entitled to by an authority much higher than the US
Constitution. Until then, my goal is to love and show compassion, if not
agreement, with all of God's children. The rest will be ferretted out by
@USU-Logan"The problem for gay marriage ban is that the state
can not give rational reason for such law"Not true. The state,
and many others arguing to preserve marriage, have given plenty of rational
arguments. The problem is not lack or argument but prejudice towards those
arguments. Many SSM advocates are not interested in rational argument, only
name calling and shutting down debate through intimidation. Too many have
bought into the notion that equality means sameness and that this ideal of
equality should trump everything else. The issue in the marriage
debate is really "what is marriage". If marriage is just about the
needs and interests of adults then there is some logic in allowing SSM. But
marriage is more than that - it is the fundamental unit of society. Thousands
of years of history and the vast majority of research shows that children do
best when raised by their biological mom and dad. It is unreasonable to think
redefining marriage as an institution will not impact our society.
@Brown,I totally agree with your comments. I would add one point:
many in the Gay community don't want us to raise the issue of God's
will or traditional morality because that would bring into question their
immoral behavior. If they can remove God and morality from the equation then
they can argue that there is nothing that sanctions their immoral behavior.
That is why they want to remove God and religion from the discussion in the
public square. America was founded on principles of faith in God and on
morality, yet the Gay community wants to erase that foundation and history from
the history books. We must stand up NOW for morality and for the place of faith
in God and his commandments in our society. America was founded on more that
the action of activist judges who may only be interested in man's law and
@ Brown "Maybe if you were to read the briefs..."I have read
the briefs. I want was is best for the U.S., for the LDS church, for my married
brothers and sisters, for my 14 nieces and nephews, for my GLBT friends and
family. Until three years ago, I believed civil unions for gay couples and
marriage for straights was the best. As I have followed the debate I've
realized that complete marriage equality is best.Legally/constitutionally,
I really don't understand how anyone can argue against legalizing same-sex
marriage. Read the majority and dissenting opinions on Lawrence v. Texas to
understand that Americans have a fundamental right to engage in same-sex
relationships and laws cannot be designed to discourage or inhibit this
right.Read Loving v. Virginia to understand that Americans have a right to
marriage and the state cannot limit who they can marry without a rational basis.
Read the Utah court briefs and listen to the hearings and the brief from
Michigan and other states to understand that there is no rational basis.
Rational, according to law needs to be more than religious or moral disapproval.
First, the letter writer needs to review what is required constitutionally for a
gov't to meet the barriers of rational basis and heightened scrutiny. The
explanations he gave are not correct. Second, after years and years
of back-and-forth on this subject it is very heartening to me to see that
conservatives still have no valid arguments which will hold water in the court
of law. I am quite overjoyed reading these posts because most, if not all, of
those who oppose SSM still don't grasp the concept that their personal
moral convictions literally are given zero credence in the court of law. When
you cut through all the noise, every single reason conservatives have for
opposing SSM can be distilled down to one thing: personal moral objection. And
with that as their only justification, they will surely continue to lose.
@procuradorfiscalTooele, UTWell said, you speak the TRUTH! I
would add that the Gay agenda exemplified in the SSM cause will in fact remove
the right of freedom of speech as they did with the CEO recently who they
pressured to resign because he gave a little money in support of proposition 8
in California. Their position is that we may have freedom of speech but that
there are "consequences for how we use that freedom". In other words,
if we disagree with them and openly express our disagreement they will make our
lives miserable and cause harm such as pressuring employers to fire us because
we "discriminate". Well they discriminate against our Christian beliefs
by attempting to stop us from invoking morality or God in the public square. We
need to wake up to the harms that the same-sex marriage agenda brings to society
before we totally lose our freedom of speech.
@Happy Valley HereticThank you for your entire 8:28 comment.@DemiurgeThank you for your 8:54 comment..."...I can't really believe that the opponents are down to arguing for
"separate but equal"...".
Here we go again. Do we Straight people teach anything to same gender couples?
How about this, can same gender couple can bring new born child to the world?
Adoption doesn't work because they are not part of your biological DNA! I
didn't think so.
@Happy Valley HereticOrem, UTYou said and I quote "To the
religious arguments, do us all a favor and stop using religion as a moral fig
leaf for your naked prejudice".To you we say - NO WE WILL NOT
STOP using our freedom of speech to disagree with you. We have every
constiutional right to express our religious opinions in the public square.
With what authority does the Gay community presume to tell us to leave God and
morality out of the discussion?
Those who favor same-sex marriage draw heavily upon an analogy to the
eradication of slavery and its vestiges, such as the prohibition against
interracial marriage. There is a stark difference between interracial marriage,
which incidentally involves a man and a woman, and same-sex marriage. Morality
was clearly on the side of abolishing slavery and its vestiges. Morality is
clearly not on the side of establishing same-sex marriage or diminishing the
divine institution of hetero-sexual, father/mother marriage. Same-sex marriage
is an obstacle to the great eternal plan of family happiness and joy. Those who
say or believe that allowing others to practice same-sex marriage does not
hinder them are naïve and unrealistic. An entire civilization that permits
same-sex marriage will be adversely affected. It is absolutely foolish to
believe we can change the most fundamental, stabilizing unit of society and not
expect dramatic adverse changes to that society. The resulting ills will
permeate all facets of society, and I don't feel that I need a scientific
study to prove that proposition to my mind.
@DN: 'Schearr argued for rational basis, meaning the plaintiffs must prove
Utah's law defining marriage as between a man and a woman is
unconstitutional. Tomsic says the judges should use "heightened
scrutiny," under which the state has the burden to prove the law should be
upheld'This is not accurate, as there is no 'burden of
proof' at this stage of review. The 10th Circuit will determine whether,
as a matter of law, Utah’s SSM-ban is unconstitutional, even when all
factual questions are assumed in favor of Utah.Playing offense,
Schaerr must persuade 10th Cir of two things: 1) rational basis should apply,
and 2) singling out gays to exclude from marriage is rationally related to
Utah’s legitimate interest (ex. promoting child-centric marriages), in
light of no similar exclusions for infertile couples, sex-abusers, drug/alcohol
addicts, etc. Playing defense, Schaerr must counter Kitchen’s position
that intermediate scrutiny applies, only because it will be that much harder to
prevail at trial, if remanded.Schaerr is playing Twister and
Whack-a-Mole simultaneously as district courts keep striking down SSM-bans for
slightly different reasons.
To BrotherJonathan with support from ODannyBoy: Though not of the persuasion I
basically agree with your statements concerning civil unions. Speaking only for
myself I think most of those effected would be fine with having their rights
conveyed that way. I think way to much emphasis is put on the word marriage and
it's definition. The problem with your scenario is the amendment itself Utah Amendment 3 says -Article I, Section 29. [Marriage.](1)
Marriage consists only of the legal union between a man and a woman.(2) No
other domestic union, however denominated, may be recognized as a marriage or
given the same or substantially equivalent legal effect.Even if
everyone was fine with your civil union concept the amendment would still have
to be struck down because of item (2). "No other domestic union, however
denominated" specifically excludes civil unions, partnering or whatever
other name you care to call it by. "Or given the same or equivalent legal
effect" precludes granting the rights gained in a marriage to said union. If
it had been left with only item (1) in it I think compromises could have been
reached. As it is, that is not possible.
@LibertyInLaw"The state, and many others arguing to preserve marriage,
have given plenty of rational arguments."Did those so-called
"rational arguments" ever prevail in court? NO, they have been refuted
in courtroom over and over again. In NJ, in NM, in OH, in UT, in OK, in KY, in
TN, in VA, in MI, in TX, in IN, and will be in OR, PA....., not to mention they
already failed in MA, CT, CA and IA in the past.
@Meckofahess"With what authority does the Gay community presume to
tell us to leave God and morality out of the discussion?"Oh it
can be in the discussion, and can even be a motivator for your own personal
support, but it cannot be the sole basis for creation of laws, because that
would violate the establishment of religion clause in the First Amendment, and
would be as unconstitutional as attempts to incorporate pieces of Sharia Law on
the basis of it being Islamic teachings. There needs to be a secular reasoning
for the law (that's why murder and robbery are illegal, it violates the
rights to life and property).
Mosiah 29:26-27 26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people
desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the
lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this
shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of
the people.27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people
doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon
you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he
has hitherto visited this land.
@KTC JohnUnder you view, how could a gay or lesbian person live a moral
life?I suppose you would say they could remain celibate or marry an
opposite-sex spouse.Those are both very hard, maybe impossible options.
People of particular faith may pursue those options and have a right to. If they
do, they should do it willingly and completely aware of what that entails.Our law cannot and should not compel gay people to be celibate or marry an
opposite-sex spouse. If you tried to compel this, you would end up with broken
people and broken families.There are many good, moral gay people who feel
the same desire you do to commit to one person for a lifelong partnership. They
want to be a part of their community and extended families and many want to
raise kids. Many want to be part of our churches.It tears me up to see how
we exclude and try to frustrate good desires and push these people to the
fringes then try to legislate to make sure they are permanently characterized as
@ SchneeReligious discussion can and already is in laws as it is.
Laws are put in effect all the time that discriminate against all sorts of life
styles.So why not against the homosexual life style? Is it because
you have a lot of media support that believes that your life style should be
acceptable?It is one thing to tolerate a persons life style and
another thing completely to authorize it.“Whether you think
you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ―
I still don't understand why we must declare gay civil unions equal to
marriage. A gay couple is not the same as a hetersexual couple. They are
different.The only thing that is the same is that they love
eachother. Declaring that gay marriage is the same as heterosexual marriage is
like declaring apples are the same as oranges. Both are fruits, but that is
about where the similarities end.
Same-sex unions are not capable of conferring the same benefits on men, women,
children and society as the marriage of a man and a women does. A brief
comparison of the norms of both traditional marriage and same-sex unions
illustrates just how hazardous and toxic same-sex relationships will be to
marriage as an institution. Norms of Marriage:MonogamousMan and WomanChild-bearingBoth parents are related to their
childrenExclusive (fidelity, loyalty)Permanent (commitment)Formally and legally sanctionedRomantic love brings them togetherShared household, benefits, etc.
Norms of Same-sex couples:*Gay female couples are mostly monogamous*Gay male couples are Polyamourous (The norm for gay male couples is to be in
an open relationship. Furthermore, research has found that gay couple
relationships last longer when they are open. Put another way, their
relationships are shorter when their relationships are based in sexual fidelity.
This means that gay male relationships are inherently unstable. Fidelity among
gay couples is the exception. Research has found that typically only gay male
couples with HIV have exclusive sexual relationships.)*Man and Man, or
Woman and Woman*Cannot bear children*Only one parent can be related
to the child*Are not exclusive (open relationships)*There is no
fidelity (open relationships)*Lack of fidelity undermines loyalty*Are inherently incapable of *permanence* because of their open relationships,
with the exception of having HIV or gay female couples*Romantic love
brings them together, but so does convenient, casual, anonymous hook-up
sex—which is not the equivalent of love, but is rather based in lust*Share a household, benefits, etc. *Marriage is legally sanctioned in a
dozen states, but constitutional amendment defines marriage as between a man and
woman in 30 other states
That children deserve to be raised in a home with a mother and a father is
irrelevant. And here is why. We already have children and gay and lesbian
couples will continue to have and to raise children married or not. Building
families is a human right and not subject to public discourse or opinion. If we
dropped Kitchen V Herbert tomorrow and let Amendment 3 stand, we will still have
and raise children and our families will continue to thrive and grow. However
our families will be harmed by the government sanctioned discrimination that is
being promoted by those who falsely claim to be pro-family and pro-children. The
number of children being raised in gay and lesbian families will not change when
Amendment 3 is overturned. What will change is the protections and security
that all families deserve. Second parent adoptions for parents who have raised
their children from birth for example. Social Security and insurance benefits
for all families. Those who oppose these cannot take the moral highroad you are
When the older "diverse frightened" generations pass on, the younger
generations who now exhibit open minds and open hearts, will prevail and be the
norm. Younger people already embrace diversity and do not exclude individuals
for the reasons older generations are famous for.Just look at the two
individuals who have recently been at the top of the media's list.......the
elderly Nevada Rancher, and the elderly owner of an NBA basketball franchise.How out of sync, cruel, and bigoted they appear, just as those do who are
fighting against SSM.
USU-Logan: "Did those so-called "rational arguments" ever prevail
in court?"Just because a court disagrees with an argument does
not make it irrational...Courts are falling in line with the current
of society. Today, anyone who opposes gay rights is a "bigot" or worse
(simply read the posts here to see this). Judges are people and, like it or
not, they are influenced by what others may say about them.The gay
rights bully machine is operating at peak efficiency on society right now, and
it will ultimately be to to detriment of everyone's freedom....
KTC JohnWetumpka, AL"Those who favor same-sex
marriage draw heavily upon an analogy to the eradication of slavery and its
vestiges, such as the prohibition against interracial marriage. There is a stark
difference between interracial marriage, which incidentally involves a man and a
woman, and same-sex marriage."Here is a quote from Mildred
Loving: "Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren,
not a day goes by that I don’t think of Richard and our love, our right to
marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person
precious to me, even if others thought he was the “wrong kind of
person” for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no
matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same
freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people’s
religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people’s civil
rights."In case you don't know who she is, think Loving v.
Virginia and the end of racial barriers for whom you could marry.
Re: "Even if everyone was fine with your civil union concept the amendment
would still have to be struck down . . . ."Well, that's not
actually true -- but let's address your argument about civil unions.One may make a cogent, if not compelling argument, that civil unions are
necessary to preserve the inarguably valid pecuniary rights of LGBT.OK. So make the argument. In the state legislature. Let legislators listen to
all voices. Then, they're free to craft new law -- including a repeal of
the necessary provisions of Amendment 3 -- that accomplishes the objective and
protects all stakeholders.That's the way the legislative
process is designed to work. America stands for the Rule of Law. It accomplishes
it by adherence to the Constitution.Not by vesting unelected,
doctrinaire, self-interested jurists with unfettered authority to legislate
public policy, in the name of "judicial review."That's
the primary objection most conservatives have to current LGBT rights debates --
they're being held in the wrong fora, between the wrong parties, with the
wrong arguments, and under an extremely dangerous interpretation of the proper
role of judges in the process of governance.
I have read studies that show that indicate that the average gay relationship
lasts a much shorter time than the average relationship between a straight
couple. Gay marriage opens the way to adoption of children by gay couples.
Most people would agree that children deserve to be brought up in stable
relationships, and having both men and women role models is important in the
emotional development of children. We hear lots about the rights of adults in
this country, but few consider the welfare of children when discussing those
rights. I believe that most children were much happier and more emotionally
sound before the days of short-term relationships. I believe what children need
in this country is a man and a woman in the home who love and respect each other
and are committed to making the relationship work. While some of the values
held in the past may not have been right, for the most part need to return to
the values of the past for the benefit of the children. At the same time,
however, we need to show genuine love, compassion and tolerance towards others
regardless of who they are or what they believe.
@ El Chango Supremo "It's also simple, common sense that men &
women belong together biologically. It's the way we're made".It may be the way you were made which only you can determine, but it is
not the way I was made.Each of us can only determine who we are, not other
people. Civilization is learning more about its differences and similarities,
especially the younger generation. Through our communication networks, people
are becoming more educated about not only who we are, but also that many
speculations of the past simply are not true.
Tiago wrote:"There are many good, moral gay people who feel the same
desire you do to commit to one person for a lifelong partnership. They want to
be a part of their community and extended families and many want to raise kids.
Many want to be part of our churches."On that subject, there is
a new book out that is causing considerable fundamentalist panic because the
author, a gay evangelical Christian, argues for the integration of gays and gay
relationships into Christian faith communities. One would expect that view from
those who consider themselves progressive Christians, but not from an
evangelical. Remarkably, the author affirms the full inspiration and authority
of the Bible, while making the case for re-interpreting scripture to embrace an
understanding of homosexuality that simply was not possible during the time the
ancient book was written.(DN probably does not allow book names or
authors, so I'll not include them, but it shouldn't be too hard to
track them down).
Meckofahess, I'm sure I'm not going to change your mind, but...I am
going to assume you get your concepts of morality from the Bible. But
throughout the books of the Bible, there are passages endorsing slavery. Human
sexuality is infinitely more complex than slavery. Morality wise, slavery is a
no brainer. Now if the writers of the Bible got slavery --something pretty
simple--so wrong, what are the chances that they got something more complex
procuradorfiscal, I totally disagree with you. When the legislature was
passing the legislation to put Amendment 3 on the ballot, all these arguments
were brought forth. They would not listen to anyone but Gayle Riszika (sp?) and
passed the toughest law they could. Gay advocates tried to get the second part
taken out which does not allow any kind of legal arrangement between gay
couples, but the church gave its approval and Amendment 3 passed with 66% of the
voters voting for it.Because of it being an amendment, the
legislature cannot just repeal any part of it. It must be put in front of the
people again. The legislature cannot even pass a non-discrimination
bill affording gays the right to work and housing, let alone put another
amendment on the ballot for another change to Utah's constitution.Gay couples are using the constitution to resolve what they believe (and has
been determined so far) to be an unconstitutional attack on their right to a
privilege that other americans are enjoying: the benefits and legal privileges
of - Marriage. It was set up in the constitution to go to unelected judges so
the the majority cannot rule over a minority.
For procuradorfiscal: Your statement "Let legislators listen to all
voices. Then, they're free to craft new law -- including a repeal of the
necessary provisions of Amendment 3 -- that accomplishes the objective and
protects all stakeholders." is incorrect. They can craft proposals for the
ballot but amendments to the constitution can only be accomplished by a vote of
the people. Here are the two ways.Via the legislatively-referred
constitutional amendment process: An amendment can be proposed in
either chamber of the Utah State Legislature. A two-thirds vote is
necessary in the state legislature to place a proposed amendment before the
state's voters. Votes on proposed amendments must take place at
general elections. If more than one proposed amendment is on a ballot,
the amendments must be placed on the ballot in such a way that voters can
register their opinion on them separately.(This is how Amendment 3 was
created.)Via a constitutional convention: A ballot question
about whether to hold a convention can go on the ballot if two-thirds of the
members of the state legislature vote to put it on the ballot. Votes on
whether to hold conventions must go on a general election ballot.
TO: RanchHand Huntsville, UT @Rocket Science; You say"Accept our
"lifestyle" or not, you don't get to tell us who we may or may not
marry. That is not your right. Discrimination is based on some level of dislike
no matter how you slice it. Dislike is just another form of hate. It is
absolutely intolerance to deny others the legal benefits you enjoy - and there
is nothing immoral about LGBT couples forming. Nothing"We hate
not, we choose to follow God's law, if you not like talk to him, we follow
God's law sin is wrong.You don't see people who believe in living
together before marriage screaming people of faith hate them, or anything ells
that is a sin. You are the only one screaming hatred. We as a God fearing
people are asked too speak out agent sin, but you have a God given right to sin
if you like and he well judge you on judgment day but don't expect or force
us to say you are right and God is wrong well never happen. I fear not you but
fear the judgment of God.
@RPrice@Beaver NativeYou both make the argument that gay people are
especially promiscuous and unable to establish committed, long-term
relationships. You are welcome to share your perspective and believe you when
you say that the gay people you know fit that stereotype. I can only
offer my personal experience as a counter example. I have met hundreds of GLBT
people. I met them on my mission, at BYU, at firesides, on online support
groups, at work, and in my YSA ward. They are some of the warmest, most loving,
loyal, strongest people I know.Some of them have decided to pursue
same-sex relationships, but the vast majority continue to hold on to the values
they learned in the church. They are looking for people who share those values
and want to commit for life. One of my closest friends is married to his partner
and adopted a baby recently from a family member who could't take care of
it. I know many partners who have been together for decades.You
don't know me or my friends. When you judge without knowing, that is called
@Aerilus Maximus"So why not against the homosexual life style? Is it
because you have a lot of media support that believes that your life style
should be acceptable?"Oh I'm not worried about my life
style being considered acceptable. After all, I'm straight; that's
always been acceptable and always going to be acceptable. @Redshirt"Declaring that gay marriage is the same as heterosexual
marriage is like declaring apples are the same as oranges"They're both marriages/fruits. @RPrice"Norms of
Marriage:MonogamousMan and WomanChild-bearingBoth
parents are related to their childrenExclusive (fidelity, loyalty)Permanent (commitment)Formally and legally sanctionedRomantic love
brings them togetherShared household, benefits, etc."All
of those except "man and woman", "child-bearing", and "both
parents are related to their children" are possible with same-sex marriage
though I see from your second post that you just want to stereotype.
To "Schnee" they are only the same in a very broad and generic sense.
It is like saying that a man and woman are the same. Are they really the
same?If apples are the same as oranges, why can't I juice an
apple the same way as an Orange. They are both fruits, and according to you are
the same.Why can't I start an orange orchard here in Utah? You
said that one fruit is the same as another?Why can't I cross
pollinate an orange with an apple, they are both fruits?It seems
that declaring 2 dissimilar fruits to be the same doesn't work in nature.
Neiter does declaring gay marriage the same as hetersexual marriage make them
any more the same than declaring apples the same as oranges.
@RedWings"Just because a court disagrees with an argument does not
make it irrational..."I agree. But what if there is more than
one court disagree? In fact, since Windsor’s ruling, courts in NJ, NM, OH,
UT, OK, VA, TX, TN, MI, IN all rejected those arguments. The winning streak for
SSM in courtroom remains unbroken, not to mention previous wins in MA, CT, CA
and IA court.And BTW, is there any court agree with your argument?
If there is not even a single time, not even a single court, is on your side,
can you still claim that argument rational?
MoNoMo: "Please provide a logical answer to this question: 'How does my
gay marriage diminish your straight marriage in any way?'"It won't hurt current straight marriages. But, in the long haul it will
mean the eventual demise of the institution of marriage. Legalizing SSM will
mean that all other companion associations such as polygamy, incest, close
relatives, father/daughter, mother/son, sister/brother, cousin/aunt, children,
you name it... will also have to be legalized for the same reason...
discrimination. Allowing one aberration of marriage (SSM) and not all others
will mean the anti-discrimination provision of Amendment 14 will be totally
nullified and meaningless.USU-Logan: "The problem for gay
marriage ban is that the state can not give rational reason for such
law..."The rational reason is that marriage will eventually
disappear resulting in social chaos... see above.Darmando: "...
14th amendment to the constitution, place overwhelming weight on the side of
marriage, same gender and opposite gender, as a civil right ..."If so, the Amendment should also provide overwhelming weight on any other type
of marriage combination... see above.
Utefan60 posted:=Again it befuddles me that in this state where
Polygamy was the norm a one=time, that people can talk with a straight
face that Marriage is between a man=and a woman? There are so many
children raised by people that don't conform to=the Man/Woman perfect
marriage!Utefan60, what reason do you have why gays and lesbian
couples should be allowed to marry while heterosexual triples should not? Try
to get a law passed that allows two or three adults of any gender combination to
get married, and I would support that law. I'm not saying I want polygamy
to come back to the LDS Church; I don't think it ever will, and I
don't want it to ever come back. I just want vindication. I want the US
government to admit it erred in dragging the LDS Church kicking and screaming
away from its own alternate sexual lifestyle.
@wrz and others"The rational reason is that marriage will eventually
disappear resulting in social chaos..."Oh, yes, the sky will
fall! don't you think that argument is getting old?
@JBQ:The courts ARE enforcing the law: The US Constitution
(supercedes ALL State Constitutions) guarantees Equal Protection to ALL US
Citizens - even LGBT Citizens.@brotherJonathan:I
don't know where you got the idea that Constitutional Law allows you to
force others to live by your "personal beliefs".Additionally, separate is not equal.@procuradorfiscal:--- Oh brother. Only you can do that to your "marriage" - nobody
else can.@CDL;What about religions that are find with
SSM? Their 1st Amendment rights don't matter?@USAlover;One day we'll all be dead. The end. It'll all be over. No
"higher authority" to answer to.@Meckofahess;Zeus considers your worship of another god "immoral".@AerilusMaximus;Quoting fiction does not advance your position.
(I find "religious lifestyles" objectionable but tolerate them).@RPrice;You don't know what you're talking about.
@Beaver Native;You don't know many LGBT couples, do
you. I've been with my partner longer than some of my siblings were in
their opposite sex marriages.@sfcretdennis;If you
"chose to follow god's law" you would treat others as you want to
be treated. Your god has no standing in civil matters. Sorry.
Stormwalker:"Siblings, and parents and children, have a defined legal
relationship that precludes marriage."SSM legalization will
change that in order to comply with anti-discrimination provisions of the 14th
Amendment."Children are not able to legally consent to civil
contracts, including marriage."Which, of course, is
discrimination against children."Animals, plants, and inanimate
objects are not able to give legal consent for any civil contract, including
marriage."How do you know my horse can't consent... it
speaks sign language not unlike someone who' may be deaf-mute."Same-sex marriage will allow same-sex couples to get married. Nothing
more, nothing less."Wrong. It will mean all other relationship
combinations where love exists to also be legalized.Ranch:"Marriage creates a familial bond where none previously exists. Hence
there is no need to marry your mother, sister, father, brother in order to
create that bond."Marriage also provide a myriad of legal
benefits which could be enjoyed by marriage of the combinations you cite.Besides, gays/lesbians don't need marriage to enjoy the bonds you
reference. Just live together... not unlike fathers, mothers, and children do.
If tomorrow morning we withdrew the lawsuit Kitchen v Herbert, stopped the
proceedings, and let Amendment 3 stand, gay people would still have children.
We would continue to form our families, and our family structures would continue
to thrive. Creating families is a human right not subject to public policy and
discourse. Gay and Lesbian people already have children and will continue to
have and raise children—married or not—because our families are not
predicated on marriage because marriage—until recently—has been
withheld from us. That children deserve only to be raised by a
biological mother and father is a spurious claim rooted in questionable social
science. In attempts to validate their claim, opponents have unwittingly
attacked single parents, children of divorced parents, couples who choose not to
have children and adoptive families with children. These opponents of equality
have launched an attack on a huge percentage of the population; and they have
become so convinced by these misleading claims of potential catastrophe that
they have sacrificed, so to speak, their own character within the community,
which mostly sees them as fanatics filled with animosity and desperation.
@Lane Myer Mildred Loving supported marriage equality.
There is a lot of commentary about a gay couple being unable to provide all the
needed attributes to raise a child. In all honesty, my husband and I do not fall
along the stereotypical qualities often assigned exclusively to each gender
(within the LDS church) and I know many other couples that do not as well. I
sought out someone who would create balance in our relationship, not someone who
had those randomly assigned qualities. If I had, our marriage would not
function. Taking this into consideration, perhaps it is best to not use this
argument for why gay individuals should not be able to adopt children. They seek
out partners who complement them and create a greater whole just as a
heterosexual does. I cannot see any viable reason that they would make
"lesser" parents. This argument is speculation only. The Proclamation on
the Family does not assign attributes to genders, only roles (and even those are
subject to prayer and family situation). Children need a family and gay
individuals are just as capable of creating one because they are just as capable
of loving their children.
Lane Myer: "Gay couples are using the constitution to resolve what they
believe (and has been determined so far) to be an unconstitutional attack on
their right to a privilege that other Americans are enjoying: the benefits and
legal privileges of - Marriage."Gays/lesbians are completely
wrong if the think they can't marry... just follow the law... pick someone
who's (1) of age, (2) mentally competent, (3) not closely related, (4) not
already married, (5) not the same sex, (6) not your pony or a flower, etc.Some say not allowing SSM is unconstitutional, citing the 14th
Amendment. That Amendment requires equal protection under state law. State
law, get it? State law [The Feds (SCOTUS, etc) have no authority to define
marriages]. And Utah State law provides that all can marry provided they meet
the requirements, as above. So, you gay people, go out and find someone to
marry. Making sure they are not your same sex, not already married, of
marriageable age, not closely related (such as father, mother, brother, sister,
aunt cousin, etc.). Go for it. And stop complaining and bellyaching.
It's not rocket science.
@Schnee&TiagoThe norms I listed are the lived reality of the majority
of gay male couples. They are fact. Research--surveying and asking hundreds of
gay male couples--has revealed that open relationships are the norm. Here's
the kicker: Open relationships last longer than closed relationships. Which
means--open or closed, gay relationships do not last. They are inherently
unstable. Tiago's gay LDS friends are the exceptions--the outliers. The gay community, lead by Andrew Sullivan and Dan Savage, knows this is
true. They declare not only that it is normal and natural, they believe that
legalizing SSM will lead to the entire institution of marriage adopting these
same standards. Is instability good for children? Forty years of
social science research practically shouts that instability among heterosexuals
is very very bad for children, women, and society. It is only logical to believe
that instability among homosexuals will yield similar negative results. Here's a sampling of what instability does to children: higher
rates of poverty, drug and alcohol abuse, teenage promiscuity, school failure,
being sexually and physically abused, mental health problems, higher infant
mortality rates, and more.
MlawrenceSalt Lake City, UT@Lane Myer Mildred Loving
supported marriage equality.--------------That's
shy I quoted her.She believed in it along with Cora Scott King:
""I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights
of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial
justice," she said. "But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King
Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'"
"I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to
make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay
people," Coretta Scott King. - Reuters, March 31, 1998.
Mlawrence nailed it.In attempts to validate their claim, opponents
have unwittingly attacked single parents, children of divorced parents, couples
who choose not to have children and adoptive families with children. Maybe not so unwittingly as the conservative party consistently attacks these
groups too, through legislation, their radio representatives and good folks like
the Eagle Forum.The tent getting smaller.
Neanderthal, I would believe you that you know that the Feds can't stop a
state from defining marriage, but we have Loving v. Virginia where the SCOTUS
decided that they knew better than Virginia. No. The 14th does not apply to
only state law.Even though the law was equally fair to both sectors
(black and white) and both could marry someone as long as they married someone
of the same race, the SCOTUS said that it was unconstitutional under the ...14th
amendment. Please explain to me what the difference is between
allowing all to marry as long as they meet state requirements as Virginia had
allowed (and you say is constitutional), and the ruling on Loving v. Virginia
that states that "marriage is one of the fundamental rights" afford to
all Americans to marry the person they choose.Doesn't this make
your argument fall apart? You may say that at least it was man-woman, but I can
tell you that Mildred Loving was very much in favor of gay marriage. She did
not understand why any state would keep two people who love each other from
being allowed to marry.
@RPriceI never realized how weak and easily influenced the hetero
community is.RPrice said: "They declare not only that it is
normal and natural, they believe that legalizing SSM will lead to the entire
institution of marriage adopting these same standards."So if I
say, the the Hetero Community is led by Fred Phelps, does that make what he
says, true for all hetro folks?RPrice said: "Is instability good
for children? Forty years of social science research practically shouts that
instability among heterosexuals is very very bad for children, women, and
society. It is only logical to believe that instability among homosexuals will
yield similar negative results." So give them the stability of a
Family, seems they should get the same chance to Succeed or FAIL like
heterosexuals do, or do homosexual relationships need to meet a higher standard
Re: "A two-thirds vote is necessary in the state legislature to place a
proposed amendment before the state's voters."Exactly.And that's the process the law requires people to use.Not some dangerous, illegal, unconstitutional kluge-together, that involves
forum-shopping for unethical jurists, corruption of the judicial process, the
law, and the Constitution, and the setting of very, very dangerous and irregular
precedents.Had the LGBT community followed the example of women
suffrage activists, this issue would likely now be settled, with many fewer
ruffled feathers -- on both sides -- and LGBT would be enjoying what I would
suspect most actually want -- protection of their rights within an understanding
and, to one extent of another, supportive community.Instead, the
overreaching, in-your-face radicals have muddied the water and polarized the
issue to the extent we will never have peace or universal buy-in on this issue,
regardless of the outcome of their addled, in-your-face approach.I
can't believe most LGBT would prefer a never-ending, abortion-issue-type
outcome over a settled, accepted, women-suffrage outcome.
@RPriceI understand your point, but resist being characterized based on
averages since I am an individual. I am a member of the "gay community"
and neither Andrew Sullivan nor Dan Savage is my leader.My views on
relationships come from my upbringing and what I have seen be successful for my
family and friends. My parents have been married 47 years. All six of siblings
are married. If I commit to someone it would be for life. Whether they are in
the majority or not, there are a lot of gay people like me with
"traditional" or "conservative" values about faith, fidelity,
and family. I encourage you to welcome them in your church and in your family,
but I can't force you to do that. I will fight for their legal right to
follow their conscience and make the commitment of marriage though. My
understanding is that is a fundamental right that they can no longer be denied
in America. I think that is a good thing.
It is very hopeful when the comments of those opposed to SSM draw far few likes
than those for it. Fundamentally, those opposed have no rational argument at
all. Not one that isn't based on fear - fear of a deity, fear that their
own marriage will be devalued, fear that children will become gay (I guess),
fear that the sky will fall.In reality, where SSM exists, it came
with a barely a ripple in the lives of everyone else.
procuradorfiscal, five Supreme Court justices threw out DOMA, because it
violated the US Constitution. Are these five all unethical jurists? Does a
judge become an unethical jurist when s/he disagrees with you?I have no
clue as to what you mean when you compare women suffrage and gay marriage
equality. Women were not content with halfway measures, [imagine something like
advisory ballots, which indicated their preferences but carried no weight, or
having their votes be worth three-fifths of a man’s vote]. You think that
gays should be content with civil unions--instead, they have the audacity to
demand equal rights. Do you also think that blacks should have been content
with the separate but [allegedly] equal schools, drinking fountains, or
gambling is against the law in utah. but is legal in nevada. what another
state does in not germane
Hosea 8:7 "For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind:
it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers
shall swallow it up."Amnendments 3 could have allowed civil
unions while preserving marriage as a religious term and practice. But that couldn't be allowed. You had to make sure gay couples had
nothing - no protection, no rights, no respect. Legally, you planted
wind and now, a decade later, you are reaping the whirlwind.Harvey
Milk said: "Every gay person must come out. As difficult as it is, you must
tell your immediate family. You must tell your relatives. You must tell your
friends if indeed they are your friends. You must tell the people you work with.
You must tell the people in the stores you shop in. Once they realize that we
are indeed their children, that we are indeed everywhere, every myth, every lie,
every innuendo will be destroyed once and all."We came out. We
stayed out. We are visible.
Actually, mrjj69, it is. See the "full faith and credit" clause.
Lane Myer:"Neanderthal, I would believe you that you know that the
Feds can't stop a state from defining marriage, but we have Loving v.
Virginia where the SCOTUS decided that they knew better than Virginia. No. The
14th does not apply to only state law."The 14th says...
'nor shall any STATE deprive any person .. within its (STATE'S)
jurisdiction the equal protection of the (STATE) laws.' The fed has no
'laws' re marriage so the 14th must refer to STATE law only.And Utah's laws say all, ALL can marry provided they meet certain
requirements (and I think you know the requirements). That seems like equal
protection under the law to me. "Please explain to me what the
difference(on the Loving case)..."You need to direct that
question to SCOTUS. It made the ruling.Also, you need to explain,
if SSM is OK'd, why not all other relationship combinations who share love
such as polygamists, father/daughter, mother/son, sister/brother, close
relatives, groups of friends, people already married, teens, sub-teens, ponies,
roses, etc. (well, you can forget the ponies and roses for now).
@DemiurgeNo, you are wrong. The pro-gay propagandizers seek out
headlines, make their pro-gay comments and tell their friends to go on-line and
like each others posts...the rest of us have to go to work during the day to
support our families. :) (I know this for a fact!)
@Utefan60 posted:--"There are so many children raised by people that
don't conform to the Man/Woman perfect marriage!"Why
don't you go and talk to those children (even those who have grown up) and
ask them if they wished their family was one with both a Mother and a Father?
What would those children say? Just because there are things that occur in
society doesn't mean they are in the best interest of children or that
children would choose that lifestyle if they were given the choice. Your argument doesn't work and, like gay marriage, doesn't think
about the desires and choices children would make if given the choice. It seems
the only "rights and choices" you all are concerned about are your own
@Brown: "Why don't you go and talk to those children (even those who
have grown up) and ask them if they wished their family was one with both a
Mother and a Father?"My Dad was a draftsman by trade and a
mechanic and carpenter by hobby. He loved to fix things and rarely owned a
machine he didn't have ideas on improving. I hated every second I was
forced to spend in the garage helping him, hated the expectation that I not only
had to learn to do that stuff but had to like doing it. I
wasn't supposed to really like cooking and writing, wasn't supposed to
enjoy playing with certain toys or reading certain books. I especially
wasn't supposed to prefer playing with the girls in the neighborhood
instead of the boys. I love my dad and I do appreciate that he
taught me how to do certain things, but I didn't need the years of misery
trying to conform to standards that did not ever fit me. I wish I had known some
gay adults as I grew up, so I could have seen choices earlier.
I have read through the comments regarding same sex marriage and I am appalled
by the bible thumpers who use religion to interfere in other person's
lives. Your gay marriage will have no effect on my marriage or anyone
else's. With the divorce rate in Utah, I wonder how many writers have left
a family to start over again with another mate. If the time should come that any
of my grandchildren or great grandchildren should announce they are gay and in
love. I want them to have the same rights as the rest of us to marry and find
happiness. It is an equal rights issue, and not a religious issue. What you do
in your life with your religion is none of our business. Just as your meddling
in others lives based on your religious beliefs, is a crime in this country.
Separation of church and state was placed there just to combat people like you.
@ArandSeparate is not equal@BigBubbaThe sky
is not falling. @BrownI've read all the briefs.
I'm embarrassed for the State. They have no rational basis and are trying
to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. All they've managed so far is
a mangled sow's ear.No child ever born has been guaranteed a
specific parent set. Marriage isn't really about children in the first
place, but if you really want to go there, fine. Regardless of when marriage
equality is extended in all 50 states, LGBT couples will continue to have
children. They are allowed to adopt in all 50 states.In Utah, LGBTs
can adopt if they are NOT in a committed relationship. This not only defies
logic, it flies in the face of the State's argument "for the sake of
@BrownWhy pro-gay marriage comments have more likes than the other
side? You can try to make your theory sound like “fact”. What you
can not change is the reality that the tide has turned, and majority of American
people are now supportive to SSM. Young people are generally pro-marriage
equality in the first place, and many older people have evolved on this issue
too, from opposition to neutral, to even support gay marriage. What
happened on this message board is just a reflection of current social reality.
@procuradorfiscalWhich of your civil rights would you like to put up
for popular vote?Equal protection under the law and due process of
law are Constitutionally protected for good reason. It ensures that the will of
the many will not trample the rights of the few.Each and every one
of us in some way is part of a minority. It may be race, it may be gender, it
may be religion, it may be sexual orientation. It is something to bear in mind
when we are about to be cavalier with the rights of others.
Taking optimal parenting rationale to a logical conclusion, empirical evidence
at hand should require that only rich, educated, suburban-dwelling, married
Asians can marry while excluding all other heterosexual couples. The absurdity
of such a requirement is self-evident.Every major professional
organization in this country whose focus is the health and well-being of
children and families has reviewed the data on outcomes for children raised by
lesbian and gay couples, including the methods by which the data were collected,
and have concluded that these children are not disadvantaged compared to
children raised in heterosexual parent households. Organizations expressing
support for parenting, adoption, and/or fostering by lesbian and gay couples
include (but are not limited to): American Medical Association, American Academy
of Pediatrics, American Psychiatric Association, American Academy of Child and
Adolescent Psychiatry, American Psychoanalytic Association, American
Psychological Association, Child Welfare League of America, National Association
of Social Workers, and the Donaldson Adoption Institute. It’s
quite simply not the gender of the parent that’s the key, but the quality
of parenting that’s being offered.
@ Brown re: "Your argument doesn't work and, like gay marriage,
doesn't think about the desires and choices children would make if given
the choice...."Where do you propose to codify your "Parental
Fitness Test?" Would you exclude convicted felons of horrific spousal and
child abuse, or lay out the red carpet for them as long as they were
opposite-sex couples in civil marriage law?Civil marriage law has
nothing to do with adoption or assisted reproductive law. So all you are doing
preventing people from getting married, but not from having or raising children.
Does this make sense to you?
I based my previous comments on studies. I don't know how many gay people
I know. I don't worry about whether those I associate with are gay. I
didn't switch specialists when I found out he was gay. I didn't care.
I continued to go to him for several years and only quit when I moved 390 miles
away. While I do have my feelings about long-term relationships, those same
feelings apply to those who enter into marriage not committed to making the
relationship work. While I recognize that a marriage cannot work when one
spouse is not committed to making a relationship work, it's up to each
individual to be committed to make it work from their end, except in the cases
of abuse or their partner's infidelity. Yes, I do care about stable
relationships and what children are taught. It's about children's
right for a stable environment and having both a male and female in the home who
love them and are there for them. You can call that prejudice. I don't.
@ mrjj69 "gambling is against the law in utah. but is legal in nevada. what
another state does in not germane"Exactly, lets assume your own
marriage is not recognized in Nevada, and you travel there to Gamble, have a few
drinks and see a show where know one will notice. Your spouse has a
heart attack and is rushed to the hospital, except you cannot approve medical
treatments, make end of life decisions, visit your loved one or find any
information on his/her condition. Why? Because you have no legal relationship
to your spouse in Nevada. Like you say, what another state does is "not
@ Beaver Native " I do care about stable relationships and what children are
taught. It's about children's right for a stable environment and
having both a male and female in the home who love them and are there for them.
You can call that prejudice. I don't."You don't target
opposite-sex convicted spousal and child abusers with your anti-civl marriage
animus, ONLY same-sex couples. This is called prejudice or bigotry. Every major professional organization in this country whose focus is the
health and well-being of children and families has reviewed the data on outcomes
for children raised by lesbian and gay couples, including the methods by which
the data were collected, and have concluded that these children are not
disadvantaged compared to children raised in heterosexual parent households.
Organizations expressing support for parenting, adoption, and/or fostering by
lesbian and gay couples include (but are not limited to): American Medical
Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Psychiatric Association,
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, American Psychoanalytic
Association, American Psychological Association, Child Welfare League of
America, National Association of Social Workers, and the Donaldson Adoption
Institute. Its not the gender, but quality parenting.
fact-based,In revising to bring my comments to less than 200 words,
I unwitttingly deleted some aspects, including an indication that comments about
stable relationships and making marriage work except in the case of infidelity
or abuse applied to all relationships, be they homosexual or heterosexual. Sorry
for the misunderstanding.I have read about the studies you refer to
and do believe that abuse is more prevalent in heterosexual relationships. I am appalled by the "try it for awhile and see if it works"
attitude that prevails in traditional marriagess today.I also have
read studies that indicate that in heterosexual relationships, most teenage boys
connect better to their mothers while most teenage girls connect better with
their fathers. I understand that women are naturally more nurturing, but I
haven't been able to understand why girls tend to gravitate to their
fathers - perhaps because I never had any daughters. I have read also that
children are more well-adjusted in relationships where both birth parent are in
the home, but I imagine results of such studies depend on the criteria used in
defining "well-adjusted". I believe the criteria used in those studies
are basically correct.
Keep saying "a marriage is between a man and a woman" Say it over and
over again, maybe it will come true. It seems to me the anti gay marriage
argument boils down to "its our club, and we don't want them in
it". Not a real compelling reason.
Listen, This coming from someone LDS/Christian God knows there is sin out there.
Not one of us is perfect. We are all sinners. But those obstacles out there will
and have strengthened us. They strengthen faith. If you are so worried about gay
marriage ruining your belief, your faith must not be that strong to begin with.
I personally don't believe homosexuality is a sin. However, I
do believe the world is facing bigger Goliath's. But all of you should know
you CAN'T fear man. Although the future seems tougher our children are
stronger. So you can argue your fear of what is to come, or continue letting
things carry as they do knowing you're faith along with others stands
unshaken. No-one is taking away our faith, we can still carry on
testifying our beliefs. But what hypocrites would we be if we were to take away
another's belief. This would only show that our standards are lower than
the rest. Don't be afraid of what men can do, your faith cannot be
childred are very understanding. If brought up by decent gay couples, not much
of a problem. They will, however, be subject to obvious and subtle abuses by
some of their peers as they grow. Lets get this straight, some heterosexual
couples make their childrens lives a living hell. The drive towards the end of
this argument in Utah is this, Eternal Marriage in one of the Temples, lets have
this out in the open NOW. This is when the trouble will really start.