To "mark" I am sorry that you are unable to get to the Flat Earth
Society web site. I am also sorry that you are unable to read their liberal
posts. What worries me most is the fact that the Flat Earth Society's
support of Al Gore and his Global Warming is lost to most on the left.
So, Redshirt, in other words, no, you could not prove one of those claims. You
couldn't prove your claim that the same percentage of liberals believe
Obama was born in Kenya as conservatives (you didn't even try). You could
not prove your claim that Hillary Clinton started the birther movement (prove
that Hillary did, not some annonymous "supporter". Give me the quote
from her mouth). You also couldn't back up your claim that "more
liberals believe that the earth is flat than conservatives." It doesn't
matter if you think the flat earth society has liberal philosophy. To back your
claim you would have to have a far broader study then one single organization.
(You could make the claim that the flat earth society is liberal, if they are,
but that is not what you said. You made a broad characterization based on one
small observation. Of course that's business as usual with you.) Besides, flat earthers, historically have based their believe on the bible.
And the Canadian flat earth society was totally tongue in cheek.
what the writer of this post fails to understand is the fact that the divide
between the Socialist Left in this country and the Constitutional Right is as
WIDE and DEEP as the Grand Canyon and growing by the month. There are NO points
of compromise. There is NO common ground. Not anymore ...not since Barack got
the keys to the White House. Ronald Reagan was once asked what his thoughts were
on the Cold War with the USSR ....he said "it's simple, we win and they
lose". Reagan's words are as true today as they were then except today
the Cold War is not with the USSR ...it is with the progressive left in this
country. No there is no war of bullets and bombs but there certainly is a war
none the less and the only option is to fight for our childrens future...or what
is left of it. I have no use for liberals / progressives / democrats....maybe 30
years ago but certainly not today. The Jack Kennedy Democrats don't exist
today...not even close.
As a software engineer the WORST thing you can ever do is attempt to bandaide a
bad architecture. What results is a terribly inefficient, terribly hard to
maintain and usually almost unusable piece of software that the customer hates.
The best and obvious choice is to simply scrap the design and start over with
new design goals and a sound well thought threw architecture. With
Obamacare you have a nightmarishly bad architecture both from a software
standpoint as well as a policy and law stand point. So to suggest we keep the
bad design and try to bandaide it is absurd. Of course you scrap the thing and
of course you start fresh ...THAT IS IF you really want to solve health care in
America. The Democrats hatched this historical train wreck of a bill NOT to
solve health care but instead to FORCE Socialism on America and anyone paying
even casual attention understands that. The goal is NOT to create good health
care - the goal is to create BIG Government which forces wealth redistribution
and controls all aspects of its citizens lives by making them dependent citizens
...not free citizens. Free citizens don't need or want Socialism.
@Red Shirt...Nice stab in the dark. Apparently you did not read my retort
regarding your non factual postings. Confirmation and admission of facts are
quite different my dear friend. Secretary Clinton's "followers" as
you so eloquently stated by no means continued the ridiculous birther movement
once she recanted and then later apologized. Now I believe that I've been
unfortunate to have read several of your anti Obama/Liberal rhetoric which can
be found in many of your blathering posts. I.E Regarding how Obama was in fact
born in Kenya which means he could not "legitimately" become President.
I'm most certain you remember even though conservatives have in fact a
difficult time with remembering. At no time did I mention the physical action of
voting for Cruz (myself and many Liberals would thank you for this) was a double
standard but rather the argument yourself and many conservatives have continue
using to this day regarding Obama's birth.. Where was Cruz born? Now as far
as The Flat Earth Society is concerned your point is because some of their views
are deemed "liberal" by yourself and other conservatives this in fact
makes them a liberal origination?
To "Jimmytheliberal" you should read what I said. I clearly stated that
it was Clinton and her followers that started the Birther movement. You haev
only confirmed that. Clinton may have appologized for it, but her followers
kept it going for a while and it does all go back to her.How is
voting for Ted Cruze a double standard? I didn't vote for Obama because he
is a socialist, not because of where he was born.It is only a lack
of intellect that would assume hypocrisy where none exists.You do
realize that it is the Flat Earth Society that believes in man caused global
warming, and that the Flat earth Society is quite liberal in their views. If
you don't believe me, go to their web site and see for yourself.
@Red Shirt...Sir or Madame I applaud your attempt at deflection regarding the
birther movement that continues this very day during the middle of our
President's second term. Yes. Secretary Clinton did in fact speak of this
during the Democratic primaries. However, Secretary Clinton not only recanted
but quite quickly apologized. She did not at any time question the validity of
President Obama's birth certificate. Thank you for your admission that in
fact you would vote for Canadian born Ted Cruz, once again applying a double
standard (Regardless of his mother being in fact born in America). The lack of
intellect to make this decision alone speaks volume. As far as the topic of
science is concerned I believe your party is still denying climate change in
2014! Therefore, I believe we should not even speak of your comment regarding
the Faux News rhetoric that in fact more liberals believe that the World is flat
then do conservatives. Especially Utah born conservatives. May I suggest that
cavemen riding a top dinosaurs be removed from classroom textbooks in the State
of (guess what?) Texas prior to discussing this topic. What State does Cruz
To "mark" that is too easy.See "Birther row began with
Hillary Clinton" in the UK Telegraph. If that isn't enough, News
Busters' article "NY Times Flubs Timeline of 'Birther' Myth:
First Spread by Hillary Clinton Supporters in 2008" also shows how Clinton
started the Birther movement. In the Politico article you missed the line
"That theory first emerged in the spring of 2008, as Clinton supporters
circulated an anonymous email questioning Obama's citizenship." They
continue to quote the email being sent around by Clinton supporters that stated
"Barack Obama's mother was living in Kenya with his Arab-African father
late in her pregnancy. She was not allowed to travel by plane then, so Barack
Obama was born there and his mother then took him to Hawaii to register his
birth". That sure sounds like the basic Birther theory, and it was pushed
by Clinton supporters first.As for the flat earth society, if you
go to their web site and read their forums, they do support a lot of liberal
causes and bash the GOP and capitalism. I don't see many conservatives
bashing the GOP or capitalism.
Those who oppose Obamacare have never been denied coverage or have had a child
denied coverage. They have never had to cash in their 401K to pay medical
expenses or have they lost their home. Maybe they have never been denied
medicine coverage because they have reached their life time limit. It is a good thing that Obamacare has been enacted because your worlds will
Redshirt, can you provide the proof for this claim:"You also
know that there are about the same percentage of liberals that believe Obama was
born in Kenya as conservatives"And can you provide the language
from the two articles you present that backs this claim:"is well
documented that Hilary Clinton and her supporters started the whole Birther
movement."Go ahead and back up this one also while you're
at it:"You realize that more liberals believe that the earth is
flat than conservatives."
To "Jimmytheliberal" it is well documented that Hilary Clinton and her
supporters started the whole Birther movement. See "Birther row began with
Hillary Clinton" in the UK Telegraph. Also see "Birtherism: Where it
all began" in Politico.You realize that more liberals believe
that the earth is flat than conservatives.As for Ted Cruz, yes I
would vote for him. He is a natural born citizen, just like Obama. See
"Sen. Ted Cruz still citizen of U.S. and Canada" in USA Today where they
explain the legal definition and qualifications to be a natural born citizen.To "pragmatistferlife" by your ilk, I mean liberal/Progressives
that are sprinting towards increased government control of our lives. Nothing
else that you have done acedemically, financially, or within your church are in
question at this time. Your acedemics, finances, and church calling is no
different than many conservatives.
@Anti Government"What would liberal democrats do if the tables were
reversed? Soros would be pouring billions into overturning it and the liberal
sheep would be lined up behind him if the republicans had used the same
parliamentary stunts and 100% party line vote (that needed every single
strong-armed liberal vote via threat and bribe) to get it passed."Democrats would've worked to help improve things, wouldn't have
voted 50 times to repeal it, and would've actually deemed legislating part
of their job description so they would've been involved from the start
(see: Medicare Part D, Romneycare).
@Fitness Freak"Obamacare WILL be repealed for the variety of reasons
that others have already pointed out."No it won't, even
Scott Brown and that Cotton guy in Arkansas are already backing off of total
repeals while Begich and Pryor are on the offensive. Republicans are not going
to repeal it because you aren't going to just take away health insurance
from 30 million people in 2017 (the earliest it'd even be possible and the
minimum expected to have some sort of Obamacare insurance by then) without
@Red Shirt...The fact that yourself and most of the irrational tea party still
desire to waste time on this ridiculous topic speaks volumes. The tea party and
neo conservatives continue to hold our country hostage will find any poll and
twist it dramatically in their favor. Especially if it is anti Obama. Care to
site sources regarding Democrats believing our President was born in Kenya? How
about the Earth being flat? Did you hear that one on Hannity or Limbaugh?
That's what I thought. To myself and the rest of us that possess intellect
it's quite ridiculous your party still whines about this to the very day.
How about coming together for the good of the people for once? In closing,
I'm certain that you would have no issue voting for Ted Cruz in 2016. Where
was he born again? That's right Alberta. As in Canada! Now let the
backwards thinking spin begin....
RedShirt "To "pragmatistferlife" because it puts the burden on the
hospital to determine who is actually needy and who is not. Hospitals will cut
down significantly on free care once you actually have to pay for it."That makes no sense at all. It will cut down on free health care once
you have to pay for it? That's what the ACA does. Makes it so the
everyone has to pay what they can. What is not conservative about that?My ilk? You mean someone who paid his way through both undergraduate
and graduate school, who worked two jobs where he had to travel a hundred miles
to and from the second job, you mean someone who could work a full time job,
raise five children, hold a high church position, attend graduate school and
get straight A's, run over 80 miles a week and set PR's every weekend
all at the same time. Yet..still knows that I owe my upbringing, my
culture, my friends, and a giving society for all of these opportunities. You
mean that kind of ilk?
To "pragmatistferlife" because it puts the burden on the hospital to
determine who is actually needy and who is not. Hospitals will cut down
significantly on free care once you actually have to pay for it.Actually your ilk does put the collective over individuals, you just
don't accept that truth. Just look at the massive welfare state created by
liberals. It takes from those that work to give to those that don't, it
disregards a person's freedom to do with their property as they please.
Look at what the liberals are pushing for on the TV and Internet. Your ilk
wants to force News agencies into a new version of the "Fairness
Doctrine". It destroys the ability of news commentators to engage in free
speech. There are countless examples of your ilk putting the collective ahead
of individual rights. Yes, conservatives reject the idea of putting
the collective first. That has always been a bad policy.I
don't know where your gun rant came from, but statistics show that where
there are more conceal carry permit holders, crime goes DOWN. Do you want to
live in a crime filled city?
RedShirt, and just how is giving tax credits to hospitals for free health care
not me paying for your family's health care? And no we
don't value the collective over the individual. In fact most progressive
policies are intended to promote individual freedom, mostly through opportunity.
The problem conservatives have is they don't realize you
can't separate the individual from the collective. The individual cannot
function without the collective so the challenge is to balance the promotion of
both. In reality it's the conservative who rejects the
collective not the progressive who rejects the individual. Thus (my term)
freedom fetish. It's like the right's mania for guns.
less than 1% of Americans who don't live in inner cities will ever face a
situation where a gun will make any difference at all but yet we have over 350
million guns in America. In actuality guns are just a proxy for
freedom. a rallying call for an irrational view of liberty.
Why didn't we work to improve it BEFORE we passed it???Why was
one party locked out of the room when they were working on it? And told in no
uncertain terms that they didn't care what they wanted... they have the
votes to pass anything they want and they don't need any minority votes to
get what they want??If it was great law... why put off most of it
till his second term? Re-election?If it's great law... why
put off the most painful parts till he's out of office???Few
people are impacted by the mandates now... but when the corporate mandate
hits... the majority of Americans will be affected. We will see if they really
LIKE this law... or not...===I think the answer will
be... not. And we will need another solution.It's too late to
go back (that will NEVER happen). So our only option will be... you guessed
it... what they wanted all along.... single-payer at least, and government
healthcare if they can push far enough.If we don't like that...
we are out of options...
Resistance if futile... you will be assimilated....
"Liberals and Progressives do not want to have insurance companies at all.
They want a single payer, government controlled, tax payer supported health care
system. A system, where THEY get to decide not only what level of care you get,
but whether or not you get health care at all." (THEY? Who is THEY? As
opposed to bureaucrats within the private, for profit, insurance companies
making those decisions?) "Over 70, too bad, we're not paying for that
expensive procedure. Why don't you just die?"Uh. . . Dude,
you realize that people over 70 are part of that "single payer, government
controlled, tax payer supported health care system", right? Tell you what,
why doesn't the right tell people over 70 that they are going to take them
off the "single payer, government controlled, tax payer supported health
care system" and put them in the private market. HaHaHa. ------"The best thing about the Tea party is that no one knows
who they are and where there leaders are!"Hahaha. Brilliant. So
this guy says Tea Party people are following people and they don't even
know who they are. And that's a good thing. Brilliant.
To "Jimmytheliberal" why are you ripping on liberals like you. You do
know that "neo conservatives" are just liberals that use the military to
bring their message to the world.You also know that there are about
the same percentage of liberals that believe Obama was born in Kenya as
conservatives, and that is actually a minority. Less than 25% of conservatives
believe Obama was born in Kenya.Why should conservatives get over
the ACA? Do we still have Jim Crowe laws? Can women vote? Do you have to be a
land owner to vote? Apparently lots of people have refused to "get over
it" when bad laws were enacted, and were able to get rid of the bad laws.
@Procuradorfiscal, @Cats...It always seems to be the same highly intellectual
posters refusing to acknowledge basic facts that live inside this closed minded
neo conservative bubble where the Earth is still flat and our President was born
in Kenya. The ACA is now the law of the land and our President is black. Get
The ACA was not intended to succeed... it was intended to make Americans so
miserable with the private system we have... that they will BEG the government
to step in and save them with what the Democrats have always wanted (but knew
the Public didn't want). But they WILL want it IF... they can destroy
our private system.But you really need to give ACA time to work (or
fail, which is what it was intended to do).If you pull the plug too
early... people will not be miserable enough and may actually want to KEEP
elements of the PRIVATE system.Real Progressives do not want us to
move too early... wait till people are gagging and begging for the antidote...
or the ACA will have really failed on ALL fronts...===It's a calculate risk (to sabotage the system you have so people will beg
for the alternative they don't want now). But it looks like it may
work...The one thing that's for sure... there's no going
back... We already sunk that ship. Now we need to stick with the life-raft
until somebody comes to save us (progressives politicians and government
To "pragmatistferlife" you are partially right, but then totally
wrong.You are correct that "conservatives are not really
concerned about providing a health care system where all are covered and all
pay." Why should you be forced to pay for my family's health
insurance? If I decide to risk my finances by not having insurance, then I
should be allowed to risk that. We should also get rid of the mandate that
hospitals treat anybody that comes through their doors. They should be required
to work out payment plans or be allowed to waive fees for the poor in exchange
for tax credits.The problem that you and your liberal ilk have is
that you put liberty and freedom second to the collective. The problem with
that thinking is that once you have cut freedom and liberty in favor of the
collective, nobody is free.To "SG in SLC" actually the
Gadianton Robbers are alive in the Progressive Democrats and Republicans. The
Gadiantons cannot exist where government has little power because they can only
exist where government can be corrupted. Hence, small government, little power,
and a more difficult thing to corrupt. The Tea Party wants a small government.
"For those of you who think that the Tea Party is a radical fringe element:
As a delegate to the state Convention, I witnessed a rousing standing ovation
for Mike Lee when he was announced" -bandersenActually, that is
simply evidence that the Caucus/Delegate system is fundamentally flawed
(particularly on the GOP side in Utah), because it is not truly representative
of the moderate-conservative GOP mainstream. These are the folks who consider
anyone not positioned somewhere to the "right" of Rand Paul to be
RINOs."The best thing about the Tea party is that no one knows
who they are and where there leaders are!" -bandersenSounds like
Gadianton Robbers to me . . .
"It seems rather childish of democrats to expect the republicans to fix the
mess the democrats made. If the democrats want the ACA fixed, they should do it
themselves. After all, they created it themselves."I love it.
It is akin to "the other guy ran the boat onto the rocks, why would we bail
water"..A wise manager of mine early in my career said to me
once when I had messed something up " I don't care one bit how we got
here, all I care is what you are going to do next". This endless finger
pointing game of blame solves no problems. What we need is smart people who are
more interested in fixing problems rather than standing at a podium pointing
fingers of blame.We had problems with medical care before ACA, and
we have problems now. Lets focus of fixing problems rather than political
"Yeah, that's why it has a totalitarian, forced participation
component"Do you own a car? Drive it? Buy insurance? Here is the deal. Because of the law passed under Reagan, everyone gets
needed medical care (Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act - EMTALA).
The government told the medical system they had to treat everyone. What that
law passed under Reagan didn't do was provide any funding mechanism to fund
these federal mandated and guaranteed services.So we have an option.
If you get rid of ACA, then you should also eliminate EMTALA. You need to
repeal Reagan's "totalitarian, forced participation component" from
medical providers.Sound fair? You can't mandate
services without providing a funding mechanism.
Kimber"If you don't want it (and of course, that means you
don't need it, right?) Then don't participate!"And
don't ask us to pay any fines.
The best way to fight it is by not signing up for it and not filing your tax
returns so you won't have to pay the penalty. They can't imprison
Obamacare is becoming more and more popular as its positive effects are felt.
Many of our fellow citizens can get health insurance and see their Dr. for the
first time in years. Yet conservatives continue to demand Repeal and
Replace. But they never say what they want to replace Obamacare with. I suspect
the replacement plan is to restore the former practice of letting the health
insurers take peoples' premiums then bounce their claims. If it hasn't
happened to you, it can't now, unless Obamacare is repealed without a
replacement plan.Whatever will the gop and conservatives do on
voting day 2014 if they can't keep voters riled up with anti-Obamacare
propaganda? They won't close the government again or try to take the US
government into bankruptcy until after the upcoming election. They are too smart
to make that mistake again in the immediate run up to an election. But if you
return them to office, just wait for 2015 and beyond. It's not just
Obamacare they want to repeal, Medicare, Medicaid and also Social Security are
on their chopping block. (See idazut's comment. Rikitiki did you object to
Two facts that override this entire ACA discussion.Fact 1)
conservatives are not really concerned about providing a health care system
where all are covered and all pay. Fact 2) Conservatives are
obsessed with the idea of liberty to the exclusion of other founding principles.
If the ACA has a corrupting principle it is that it is market
based. Markets never were and never will be designed to provide universal
access to anything. If you promote a market based health insurance system you
have to admit to the first fact. The Declaration of Independence
speaks of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Conservatives act as
though Liberty is the catalyst of the other two rather than one leg of a three
legged process that requires interaction and choices in order to provide a civil
society. The ACA is just a symbol of ideology where those who
actually believe in Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness can be labeled
socialists, communist, Marxists etc., and a playground for those who don't
believe in the phrase "for all".
Today's GOP is not going to work to improve the ACA. That's
ridiculous. Just as they would not work to imporve Social Security or Medicare.
Their goal is to remove the public safety nets in our socieity and return the
money to the people.
It's the majority of American People who don't want Obamacare, not
just the GOP. Many leaders from the Democratic Party are also increasingly
opposing this bad legislation as they see the negative impact it's having,
and the coming fallout. And this even with the strong, very biased push from the
"Mike Lee knows what he is doing and the 4,000 delegates responded in like
manner! Utah should be leading the nation with more Mike Lees!!!!!"Welcome to the ultra-conservative bubble within the national conservative
bubble. The tide has turned. I pray heads don't explode when both bubbles
pop during the next two elections and President Clinton ushers in the
single-payer plan we should have had to begin with. Apocalypse will
be predicted, but, five years later, it will be as loved and indispensable as
Social Security. Which will be fixed by taxing us at Ronald Reagan rates.
It seems rather childish of democrats to expect the republicans to fix the mess
the democrats made. If the democrats want the ACA fixed, they should do it
themselves. After all, they created it themselves.
The liberal hypocrisy is endless.What would liberal democrats do if
the tables were reversed? Soros would be pouring billions into overturning it
and the liberal sheep would be lined up behind him if the republicans had used
the same parliamentary stunts and 100% party line vote (that needed every single
strong-armed liberal vote via threat and bribe) to get it passed.There is no good legislation that can't get a single vote from the other
party and that goes to both sides.The ACA act is anything but
affordable. My decent 80/20 plan has turned into $4000 out of pocket before I
get ANY insurance coverage. Effectively if I don't have catastrophic
illness I have no insurance despite the fact I pay $6000 in premiums and $4000
out of pocket. $10000 per year and I get nothing in return.Who does
that sound affordable to? Liberals thats who. It allows me to pay alot in that
they get to use for all the other people who can't or don't pay their
own way. Translation? Purchased votes.Liberals spend every waking
moment scheming ways to get access to others money. I'm sick of it.
Re:Banderson" Real compromise comes from two totally different
viewpoints coming together," truer words were never spoken! What party has
voted 40 plus times to repeal the ACA instead of working to find a way to
improve it, and save your breath if you are going to trot out the "they
shuts us out" gag! Where was the compromise there? Who is it that carries
the reputation of the "Party of No"? Who led the parade when the
government went into shut down, could it have been your hero's Lee and
Cruz, where was the compromise there? 4000 tea partiers in Utah
cheering Lee after hearing an hour of red meat rhetoric is like bragging about
4000 children cheering Donald Duck as he is throwing lollipops.Sorry
my friend, when you say there is fear out there you are absolutely right.
Unfortunately the fear is within the Republican party! The likes of Lee, Rand,
Cruz and Love are using it to gut the Republican Party and as sure as happened
in 08 and 12, the same will happen in 16 and 20. As one of the great ones said
"A house divided cannot stand".
Hey Banderson -"I witnessed a rousing standing ovation for Mike
Lee when he was announced . . . "That's eerily reminiscent
of the Nuremberg Rallies of the 1930's.Fortunately most
Americans are bright enough to learn from history, and certain events will not
be repeated.The Tea Party will go down in history as just another
bizarre Right Wing nationalist movement with a funny name . . . Like the No
Nothings of the 19th century America.
Ralph West Jordan: The progressives don't even understand that you
can't find something good about an adulterous relationship! They keep
wanting to say to those who believe it was wrong in the first place that we need
to just compromise our standards so that everyone can feel comfortable about
another affair! when the Democrats talk about compromise, they don't
realize that there were many on the sidelines that knew something was amiss, but
were hesitant to stand down against it for fear of being rejected or ridiculed.
The fear is gone and they know it was the fear that has put our country on the
verge of collapse. Mike Lee represents those without fear! The establishment
Republicans are in trouble because it is they that have joined with the
Democrats in ruining our country. The pretense was that they were joining with
the Democrats in compromise, when in fact there was no compromise at all or any
discussion about two different visions; it was one vision and it is obvious it
not only was bad, it represented only the big government version. Real
compromise comes from two totally different viewpoints coming together, not one
viewpoint getting bigger!
For those of you who think that the Tea Party is a radical fringe element: As a
delegate to the state Convention, I witnessed a rousing standing ovation for
Mike Lee when he was announced, while Senator Hatch was met with dead silence
and a sprinkling of boos. No, the Tea Party is alive and well and if Liberty
means anything, it means not accepting Socialism and the Compulsion crowd! Mike
Lee is not a dying fringe movement; He represents the Independent, conservative
minded American, one that has finally, thank God, said "no" to both
Republican and Democratic answers to Societal problems! The best thing about
the Tea party is that no one knows who they are and where there leaders are!,
something that is inimical to both Republican, Democratic, and the state run
media machine! If you can't find them, how do you tear them down,
discredit them, and maintain your power? Mia Love may be a Republican star or
the real thing, but Mike Lee knows what he is doing and the 4,000 delegates
responded in like manner! Utah should be leading the nation with more Mike
To the people that don't want "Obama Care" (the ACA):If
you don't want it (and of course, that means you don't need it,
right?) Then don't participate! But for those of us that had been denied or
who had it taken from us, we are very grateful for it (and don't consider
it "Socialism")and we are getting the healthcare we need now. In this
free country, it is your right not to like it, but it is not your right to take
it away from us! God Bless America!
Article says:"It’s time for the GOP to accept that the ACA
is the law of the land"Not even Mr. Obama accepts that. He keeps
changing the law, extendidng deadlines and waiving portions of it. If it is the
"law of the land" then he is bound by his oath of office to enforce it
exactly the way Congress wrote it.
Why is the Deseret News letting such a biased organization as Americans for
Democratic Action speak for it? Does Deseret News not have its own editorial
staff?And why should we just "accept" that the law is the
law -- when everyone knows laws can be rescinded and the President is repeatedly
breaking this law? Lots of fixes that people like can be put into
place without the massive federal bureaucracy this brings and without IRS
intervention in our medical health and welfare.
I get a little tired of all the blame for the failure of Obamacare is due to
"tea-party conservatives".Are Mitch McConnell, Lindsay
Graham, Orrin Hatch all "tea party conservatives? I'm doubtful.Obamacare WILL be repealed for the variety of reasons that others have
already pointed out.I just hope that in the long-run democrats learn
that they CAN'T govern by one-man rule. Essentially the last 5 yrs. have
Thid Baker – Force is evil? Really? The force of public opinion evil too? . . . The force of public opinion
turning in favor of the ACA and against regressive Republicans? I don’t
think so.How about the force of good sense and reason that are
allowing many to see just how ridiculous Right Wing Extremism really is? Is
that evil too? NOPE.Let the force of Good prevail.
"GOP should stop fighting Obamacare and work to improve it"Of course they should. But what are the chances of the GOP actually doing
something right for a change?. . . Not good, I'm afraid.They're too caught up in the myths they keep inventing and
reinventing . . . all the falsehoods they generate while trying to make their
ridiculous ideology sound viable.I think, deep down, a lot of
Republicans are not nearly as clueless as they seem to be.They know
that ObamaCare is in fact good for the country, and they are extremely
embarrassed that they refused to help design the ACA when they had a chance.And so they insist Obama can't work. They are stubbornly sticking
to their story in spite of all evidence that shows their beliefs to completely
false.What would make the Repubs admit their mistakes and their past
silliness?That would take some real integrity.
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha....oh,this is a great comedy sketch........what?
this is supposed to be serious?You can't fix a train wreck with
amendments. You have to clean up the mess, re-lay the track and start again.
The US healthcare system needed to have that same approach, but the ACA was a
fantastic overreach that will bankrupt the nation. You can't fix that with
a few amendments. The Republican proposals haven't gotten past the Senate,
where they refuse to even consider them. Must be nice when you can complain
that there haven't been any attempts to fix it and then not allow any
amendments. I think they call that being disingenuous..
If ObamaCare is so great, why does Obama make us "rich guys" (those who
work hard enough to pay income tax) subsidize those who won't or can't
work hard enough to pay income tax? There is a huge difference between requiring
that insurance companies offer insurance to those with pre-existing conditions
and requiring that you and I pay most of the premiums for those policies in
addition to paying for our own policy. Let all government workers, including the
President, be assigned doctors, hospitals and insurance policies. Let them pay
the highest rate, because they are the highest paid people in government.Some liberals think that they have the right to force everyone else to
do whatever it is that they think society needs. They want the minimum wage
raised. Fine. Let them offer to give the bulk of their own paycheck to someone
who earns less than then do. Let all workers in the White House, including the
President, receive the same (low) wage. If they want to equalize things, start
with the White House. Let them lead the way.
Bandersen 12:12PM Says it all. Read and re-read this post! It tells all who
are real conservatives and anyone left of center just what the the Tea Group and
extreme right think of those who are not totally in agreement with their agenda!
I will say that the " the illiterate poor, the patronizing calculating
Socialists, the historical ignorant crowd," didn't do to bad during the
last two presidential elections. As a life long conservative I don't see
change anytime soon.
liberal larry is close to getting it. The first Republican response to
Obamacare was to "repeal and replace." Then there was a long period,
including all of the House votes, of just repeal. While there are numerous
problems with Obamacare too many people are not interested in just going back to
the pre-Obamacare days. Now that Republicans are actually talking about fixing
the problems that Obamacare was supposed to address there may a possibility of
correcting the technical problems in Obamacare. Straight repeal ain't
This is also true of immigration, entitlement reform, education, land use, and
who knows how many other things. We can come to broad compromises on all these
things. It seems that we let a minority of people on both sides of the aisle
bring compromise to a halt. We should all have learned by now that in a diverse
country an "all or nothing" attitude usually gets you nothing.
If it weren't for the fact that the illiterate, the illiterate poor, the
patronizing calculating Socialists, the historical ignorant crowd, and lastly,
and certainly not least, is the lead by compulsion crowd were voters I'd
have more hope for its repeal. Only a miracle, and enough people returning to
the Constitution and God, is there a chance. I will take that chance. I
I fail to see how a law passed without consulting Republicans, passed by
backdoor deals, threats, and locked doors, without a SINGLE Republican vote, can
be considered a good law. All this when the vast majority of Americans opposed
it and, despite Obama's promise to give the public 5 days to view the bill
and give feedback before signing it, he IGNORED them (because they said
"no") and signed it asap! Then there's the "we have to pass it
to find out what's in it!" line by Nancy Pelosi. And don't forget
Obama couldn't get it passed with it being a tax (he called it a fine, not
a tax), then couldn't get it considered constitutional with it being a fine
(then he called it a tax, not a fine).Imagine if Bush had signed a
major piece of legislation in which he locked Democrats out of the discussions,
bribed Republicans who opposed the bill, and passed it without a single Democrat
vote. I know Bush signed some unpopular laws, but at least they at least had
SOME Democrat support!Do what's best for America. Repeal
If ObamaCare is so great, why isn't President Obama going to get his health
care from it? Oh sure, he signed up for the Bronze plan, but it was
all symbolic. He knows that he and Congress are going to use the much better,
taxpayer supported government plan for their health care.If
ObamaCare is good enough for US, then why isn't it good enough for them?
"work to improve it" is a viable option given the limitation of the
Republican Party. With Tea Party Republicans trying to squash the Reagan
Republicans, the Republican will never come up with an alternative to the
ACA.Without a unified alternative, a Republican Congressman may
suggest something like "allow buying insurance across state lines".
That is an improvement to the ACA, not a replacement. Its the best Republicans
can do right now.
"GOP should stop fighting Obamacare and work to improve it"Well, DUH!But that might require some actual THOUGHT. Something
that is in short supply under the GOP's tiny tent.
ObamaCare will fail because it is designed to fail.When that happens
(and it will) the Federal government will step in and say, "See, we tried an
insurance company, private sector, solution and it didn't work! We now need
the Federal government to step in and take over health care in order to deal
with this crisis."Liberals and Progressives do not want to have
insurance companies at all. They want a single payer, government controlled, tax
payer supported health care system. A system, where THEY get to decide not only
what level of care you get, but whether or not you get health care at all."Over 70, too bad, we're not paying for that expensive
procedure. Why don't you just die?"
I cannot express how reassuring it is to read how repubs still think that they
can kill the ACA.Nothing screams 8 years of Hilary than seeing
repubs still stuck 5 years into the past thinking that they can just obstruct
things and make the ACA go away.
The GOP in congress has tried over 30 times to repeal Obamacare, without really
providing a viable alternative. Not only this but they have refused to approve a
Jobs Bill, or Equal pay for Women, many of whom are hard working women, mothers
trying to provide for their families. It seems there is a real change of heart
needed, a re-organizing of priorities. Instead of only helping their wealthier
supporters, maybe the GOP in congress needs to do the job that the PEOPLE who
voted for them put them there to do, that is to improve the quality of life for
ALL the people, not just the few massively wealthy lobbyists.
Thank you DN for allowing the viewpoint in this article to be expressed in your
Obamacare was passed without a single Republican vote and only after backroom
deals, bribes, lies and threats (from democrat leaders like Pelosi) to secure
enough democrat votes to get it passed. This is not good law. It cannot be
"fixed." Those who did not have healthcare still do not. Millions of
Americans who had health insurance lost their coverage due to this bad law and
were literally forced into Obamacare, against their will, and at a much higher
cost than what they had before. The best thing to do is for DEMOCRATS to join
with Republicans and scrap this monstrosity with the agreement that they will
start over and work together to come up with something that is much, much better
for America and Americans.
Re: ". . . Obamacare actually represents [a] market-based approach . . .
."Yeah, that's why it has a totalitarian, forced
participation component. One that relies for enforcement on the heavy heel of
government, pressed against the neck of anyone with the audacity to believe he
has the ability to reject participation.Market-based? "You keep
using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
The underlying premise of the article, that cooperation is better than
obstructionism for it's own sake, is sound. The ACA can be improved if we
work together on it.
The ACA, with an assist from the Supreme Court, sets a precedent that gives the
federal government the power to force us to buy anything the federal government
decides that we should have. It doesn't matter whether the enforcement
mechanism is called a penalty or a tax it still gives the federal government a
dangerous power not found anywhere in the Constitution. This is the primary
reason that the law must be repealed but there are others. Inhibiting job
growth, trapping people in part time jobs woking less than 30 hours per week and
failure to proveide health care to the 30 million uninsured that were the
primary reason for the law are some other major reasons. We now have
three major health care programs with the potential to bankrupt the country and
we still have not solved the problem of providing health care to the uninsured.
It's time to scrap all three and start over with something that actually
Where does the author get off with this diatribe knocking GOP opposition to the
ACA? There is absolutely nothing remotely affordable about the ACA. Plus,
Americans have been lied to from the get-go. Enough with the attack on GOP.
They have only stopped working toward compromise because the ACA fiasco is
totally unfixable. Obama has become so laughable with his changes, exceptions,
delays, and extensions it is appalling. This White House is rife with
incompetence, and is totally lacking in leadership. Governing via executive
order is a huge cop out and is evidence of the blatant arrogance of the egotist
in the oval office: completely un-willing and incapable of bringing both sides
The ACA has issues that ought to be dealt with, but it is silly in the extreme
to believe that the current system of health care will change in a meaningful
way. It is also silly to constantly bring up this "government
controlled" nonsense. 70-80% of people get their health care coverage from
their employer. I don't hear anyone complaining about a lack of choice of
carriers or employer controlled health care choices made for you without your
consent. Or that you stand of chance of losing your preferred health care
network when you change jobs, if the insurance for your new employer does not
recognize your doctor/hospital/treatments in their provider network.No one complains too much about the "socialist" Medicare system we
have for the elderly. And no one advocates for ridding us of the Medicaid
programs all states have. (We only argue about how poor you have to be to
qualify.) The main complaint about ACA is really that that awful
Obama is the President who signed the bill.
It is a success and may not be a smart move to take away insurance policies for
people who have it for the first time. But that has not stopped the GOP to use
this as the only issue. Maybe one more election loss will get rid of the radical
tea party elements.
In the past, whenever large and complex bills were passed by congress they would
go back a couple of years later and pass what is called a "technical
adjustments bill". Large and complex bills are always found to have phrasing
that is confusing or contradictory, as well as minor details that were
overlooked in the original drafting.. These bills cleaned up these flaws and
made the programs work better. With the ACA this process has been impossible,
because any attempt at even minor changes would have been used by the
Republicans to kill the law or poison it. It could be made better,
but not by the current congress.
Republicans might wake up and realize that Obamacare actually represents the
market-based approach that conservatives came up with as a response to Hillary
Clinton's single payer model. They should, but if history is a
guide, they'll be too busy trying to out-do each other in trying to
establish who is more anti-Obama and anything he stands for, in the process
paving the way for a single payer solution.
Re: "Now is the time for the congressional GOP to . . . get to the business
of making sure the Affordable Care Act works for everyone."Well,
at least liberals are finally admitting that Obamacare is an unworkable,
unmitigated disaster, needing enormous assistance, just to stay afloat.But, their suggestion that the real people most adversely affected by it are
somehow obligated to ride to their rescue and salvage something good from it is
just rubbing salt into the gaping wound they created.There is no
rescuing Obamacare. Liberals designed it to collapse, and it is living out the
full measure of its creation -- collapsing on itself, in the process bringing
down the best, most efficient, effective, and compassionate health-care delivery
system ever established.Now is certainly not the time for
congressional RINOs to assume their accustomed capitulatory pose. Rather, they
should salvage the best of the wonderful healthcare system we had before
liberals undertook to "fix" it.In other words, what Congress
should now do is act to fulfill Obama's cynical, disingenuous promise that,
if we liked what we had, we could keep it.
It is becoming obvious that the maniacal efforts by conservatives to undermine,
and demonize the Affordable Healthcare Act are starting to wear thin. Largely
due to the slow roll out, and hundreds of millions of dollars spent by
conservative donors like the Koch Brothers, the ACA has had to overcome a huge
PR disadvantage, but things are starting to change.A poll by the
Upshot/Kaiser shows that even in rabidly anti-Obama South, the majority of
respondents would like to improve the ACA, and NOT REPEAL it! In fact some of
the Southerners interviewed in a New York Times article, said they are tired of
all the yammering to "repeal Obamacare".The tide of public
opinion is slowly starting to turn, the ACA is here to stay.
Obamacare is fundamentally morally flawed because the entire law is based on an
evil principle; force. It forces some people to work for that which they will
not receive so others may receive what they did not work for. We used to call
that slavery but now we call it Obamacare. Shall we work to "fix"
slavery or should we abandon slavery? Obamacare is not about healthcare at all,
its about power and control: Who controls you? If we keep Obamacare the answer
to that question is, not YOU!
Wrong! Getting the government out of our lives would be the only improvement.
There is certainly a place for the government to help with the truely needy.
But having the government controlling every aspect of our lives is NOT the way
to do that.
If I am forced to buy a ship made with duct tape and concrete, which will never
float, I don't think adding a few layers of duct tape will fix it. Time to
scrap it and find an answer that is somewhere between the extremes of socialism
and right-wing fanaticism. How about a compromise for legislation that works
for BOTH sides. Not a 2500 page mess that none of the lawmakers read before
passing it. Look at our economy. Look at the fact that 50% of those who signed
up for this "reform" haven't paid for their premiums. This is not
sustainable. Middle class Americans hurt the most from this debacle. Scrap it
and elect legislators and a President who will work together to solve the
problems that this country faces.
Many many good points. There is no going back to pre ACA. Lets work together
and make it work, not endlessly trying to tear it down out of political
spite. Reform should be based on sound principles. I don't care
if good ideas come from Democrats or Republicans, lets use what is effective and
abandon the rest. Good government should be effective, fair, as simple as
possible and not pick winners or losers. It also needs also help the most
destitute and those unable to help themselves. Whether you buy
insurance in the individual market, through your employer, or small business, or
if you are a member of a union there should be no special tax benefits, coverage
protections etc that all the others can't enjoy. Lets face it, a
lot of the ACA is based on Republican ideas only implemented by a democrat. It
mirrors Romneycare with a marketplace and with subsidies for the needy.
The people of this country don't want Obamacare and have never supported
it. It was passed over the heads of the American people by use of dirty tricks
and shoddy parliamentary maneuvers. There's no reason why Republicans
should stop trying to get rid of something the people don't want.
I'd say the best way to improve Obamacare, for both the Democrats and
Republicans, is to remove it.Replace it with a truly free enterprise
system that would reward cost saving by returning cost responsibility to the
customer. Make sure the users of healthcare are the payers of healthcare and
made aware of the actual costs, with a system that allows worthwhile comparisons
of the product (medicines, hospitals, doctors, etc.) so that there is a means by
which the HUGE consumer advantages of competition are part of the cost cutting
equation.Like every other instance where government is inserted into
the process the net result will be inefficiency, waste, corruption,
incompetence, ineffectiveness AND, as a consequence of all those deleterious
factors, **higher costs**.We can do much better than Obamacare.
But, all improvements over it should start with its removal.
Let's just nurture the better part of an adulterous relationship, rather
than admitting it was wrong in the first place! You either believe Socialism is
good and pursue it or you admit it is worse than bad policy and fight to get rid
of it! The sweet and honey dripping words can't fool some of us!
Mr. Rice is a bit disingenuous in his comments. He knows that if the Democrats
in Congress were to open ACA for amendments it would not look like it is today.
The improvements that he speaks of are not the ones that might appear and then
they would be force to stall them in the Senate or have the President veto them.
This bill was passed on a strictly partisan vote and that is never a good
thing, no matter the party. But to no suggest that Republicans should just roll
over and allow the changes the Democrats want is simply ludicrous. If he was truly interested in making improvements he would urge the President
and the Senate to fully open the bill with a series of hearings and up or down
votes on changes with assurance that the President will accept them. That is
not going to happen and he knows it.
I do not support the ACA. I want health care for all those who do not have it,
but I feel this program, the ACA is unsustainable in how it is set up. It also
give the GOVT too much power and say in how our health care is handled right
down to our visit in our Doctor's office. I have many Doctors, nurses and
other health care providers in my family and not a single one of them supports
the limitations of the ACA. it is only affordable for the people who are
getting GOVT assistance with the insurance. How is that affordable for all of
us who have to pay full price? It is not, there is no FREE in the program, we
all have to pay for it. It will implode. We could have put up free clinics all
across the USA for a fraction of what this program is costing. I do not agree
with the author of this article, I see it so much differently. I am hoping we
can dismantle this program and then put forth one that really works and is
sustainable. But I will never support this one, NEVER.