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Published: Tuesday, April 22 2014 12:00 a.m. MDT

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Esquire
Springville, UT

@ Demosthenes, you state: "[Atheists] choices have no concrete basis. They are pure opinion, changeable, debatable, subjective, and contextual." I'm not arguing for atheism, by no means, but this sounds exactly like what has gone on in religions for thousands of years.

ugottabkidn
Sandy, UT

How many in this forum have had atheists going from door to door preaching their message? Taking all of history into consideration, who has caused more pain and suffering than the religious? Get off it and quit doubting your own faith because your neighbor may not believe, because based of some of the points I have read here I think there is much insecurity.

my_two_cents_worth
university place, WA

If one requires belief of a higher power and the accompanying fear of eternal damnation to "treat others as they would be treated" they are lacking in both empathy and compassion and are "good" for all the wrong reasons.

Esquire
Springville, UT

@ marxist, you address the comment of Mike Richards, "How many societies believed in slavery? " You don't have to go to ancient Israel. The U.S. will do nicely.

Mike Richards
South Jordan, Utah

The Lord cleansed the earth with the flood after He had sent Enoch to invite the righteous to join with him. The flood was necessary and a merciful act because only those who rejected God were left. The children would be taught false doctrine.

Sometime in the future The Lord will cleanse the earth again. This time with fire. Mockers will have a front row seat.

All goodness comes from God. He is merciful as long as there is a chance that people will repent, but when they are fully ripe, He will spare further rebellion by judging them.

Those who think that they, themselves, are authors of righteousness, have fooled themselves into thinking that all creation revolves around them. Paul told us that none of us are good, that we all have fallen short of the mark, yet many still think that they can make the rules that govern society.

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

Mike is this the same Noah that lived over 900 years?

Funny how science shows life spans have increased in modern times yet we only live to around a maximum of 100 years.

FT
salt lake city, UT

@Mike Richards
I bet there is not a dry eye in the tent when you're done preaching. I feel fortunate that our divinely inspired constitution you always refer to keeps your beliefs out of our public schools and government. At least that's the way it's suppose to work.

The Real Maverick
Orem, UT

Anyone needing to bash atheists in order to justify their moral or religious views probably aren't truly convicted or converted in their views in the first place. Mike Richards, rather than bash other view points, I invite you to read and pray for the truth. The Lord instructs us in James 1:5 to ask in faith and we will receive answers to our prayers. He does not instruct us to bash other religious or philosophical views.

Ask and ye shall receive. That is what The Lord has told us. So stop bashing and start asking.

Karen R.
Houston, TX

@ one old man

"Doesn't it come down to something called FAITH on both sides of the coin?"

I don't think so because it doesn't require faith for me to say "I don't know" or "I am not convinced by the evidence." Both are assessments of material evidence. Faith is belief, no evidence required.

As for the need for books and conventions, as you suggested, these are reflective of human needs common to all of us. And particularly when surrounded by dominant, and sometimes hostile, majorities, it is even more important for individuals to know they are not alone.

I really think the saying, "We're all atheists as to others' gods. Atheists just go one god further," sums up pretty well the difference between believers and nonbelievers. Outside of this, we're all about equally good, equally bad. We're all just -- people.

Redshirt1701
Deep Space 9, Ut

I don't think that the people attacking the letter writer actually sat down and thought about what was written.

He didn't say you can't be a good person that is kind and upstanding.

The question is simple. If there is no God, then who is to say what is right and what is wrong. If God does not exist, why is it ok to abort but not allow for parents to euthanize a child that is crippled?

How about this, if there is no God, what is the point of a funeral? Aren't we wasting valuable land that could be used for farms or low income housing?

If God does not exist, why is it wrong for me to rob a bank to feed my family? It is science that promotes survival of the fittest, and I am proving how fit I am by obtaining what I need for me and my family.

To "FT" I think you have it wrong. Atheism is the worst thing to come to earth. Just in the past 100 years it has killed hundreds of billions of people in the name of ideology.

my_two_cents_worth
university place, WA

"The Lord will cleanse the earth again. This time with fire. Mockers will have a front row seat."

He is your god and you are free to tremble in fear of his "wrath" all you wish. He is not my god and I won't fear him. Truth be told, I would be hard pressed to worship a god as petty and vengeful as this one appears to be. I'll stick to treating everyone I encounter with the respect and kindness due them and do so because it is the right thing to do; not because I am trying to impress some far off deity.

Open Minded Mormon
Everett, 00

@Mike Richards
South Jordan, Utah

It amazes me we attend the same Church and Temple Bro. Richards.

I'm not motivated by a fear or wrath of God,
this cleansing by floods and burning in eternal fire and torment you refer to, ya-da, ya-da.

The God you descibed is more like the devil himself.

The God I follow is kind, merciful, patient, inclusive, tolerent, forgiving = Love.
with 3 degrees of Glory -- and none of this fire and brimstone speak.

BTW -- the cleansing of the Earth by fire is a metaphor.
Like after baptism [the flood], recieving the Holy Ghost [the fire].

No one that I know was ever baptized and then set on fire.

And we are supposed to be cleasing the earth by fire by living and sharing the Gospel, it will sweep the Earth like Fire...

Mike Richards
South Jordan, Utah

I do not apologize for my belief in God. It doesn't matter who twists posts. Misrepresenting things has been going on since Satan lied to Adam and Eve.

Those who think that they are the source of truth have taken a huge bite from the "Apple". They reject God. They reject God's laws. They elevate themselves to a position that no one can self-appoint himself to.

A dose of humility might help them. George Washington thanked a merciful God for sparing this nation, but many reject that God as they elevate themselves. No person can elevate himself into the realm of deity where rules are made. Only those who have been invited into that realm can enter. Those who reject God will never receive that invitation.

You won't be the first nor will you be the last to mock. You'll be listed in the footnotes of human history along with all who mocked our Creator, our God and those who revered Him.

Christ warned us of the great and terrible day when He would come in glory. But as Ether told us, fools mock but they shall mourn.

Ranch
Here, UT

Mike Richards says:
"...then we must also believe that opposition to Him and to His rules must exist ..."

"It is a mockery for people to assign sinful behavior to God."

--- Your first premise is a belief, not a fact, therefore your second is also a belief, not a fact.

--- We assign the "sinful" behavior to men. I quoted "sinful" because, like religion, "sin" is a man-made concept. Since your god doesn't exist, he can't "sin".

God also "commanded" Nephi to kill Laban in the BOM.

The "Flood" and "Adam & Eve" are just more fiction.

Zeus isn't all that merciful if you get him angry. He throws lightning bolts at you.

@FT;

I have to think he puts everyone to sleep. ;)

@Redshirt1701;

No need for a god to say that harming others is only going to end up coming back to bite you in the butt (Karma).

Ultra Bob
Cottonwood Heights, UT

If there was a civilization of Atheist people with all the same physical wants and needs of any other mass of people, would the rules, laws and regulations of their society be any different that the rules of America except for the rules of religion? Would they not benefit from the rules that control their behavior and would they still make rules like don't steal and don't kill.

Ultra Bob
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Redshirt 1701

I agree, what is the point of a funeral? Aren't we wasting valuable land that could be used for farms or low income housing?

Robbing a bank is a mans law, not one of God commandments. The consequences will come from the men in your society.

How do you come to " Atheism is the worst thing to come to earth. Just in the past 100 years it has killed hundreds of billions of people in the name of ideology"?

Redshirt1701
Deep Space 9, Ut

To "Ranch" but if God (or Gods) does not exist, then Karma does not exist either. So, what does it matter if you harm others because this life is it. When you die, there is nothing more. It no longer matters if you were perfectly good or perfectly evil, your fate is the same if there is no God.

RFLASH
Salt Lake City, UT

It is easy to think that way, but to be fair, being atheist doesn't mean that they don't have morals. Atheists, I am sure, believe in right and wrong. Believing in God doesn't mean a person has a good sense of right and wrong. As a matter of fact, a lot of people have wrongfully been put to death in the name of God! Thousands and thousands of people in history have died in vain, all because people had to fight over the identity of God. I have always believed in God, but as soon as people knew that I am gay, they would treat me as if I didn't! If you pay attention to people talking about religious freedom, you will notice that they are not talking about religious freedom for gay people! It was good that someone is thinking about this! At least there is consideration about what somebody else believes. I love talking to others about God. I just don't find too many that would really listen to how I believe. It is sad because I have a lot of faith in Him

Open Minded Mormon
Everett, 00

Mike Richards
South Jordan, Utah
I do not apologize for my belief in God. It doesn't matter who twists posts. Misrepresenting things has been going on since Satan lied to Adam and Eve.

Those who think that they are the source of truth have taken a huge bite from the "Apple". They reject God. They reject God's laws.

==========

You do not need to apologize for your belied in God.
But
you crossed the line and really should take responsibiliy and apologize for a self-righteous indignate judgement of the beliefs of others.

Just because WE -- (which includes many MANY fellow Latter-Day Saints) do not goose-step march and agree with you 100% does not make any of us
taking "a huge bite from the "Apple". rejecting God. or rejecting God's laws."

Please - get over yourself.

Schnee
Salt Lake City, UT

@Redshirt1701
"To "Ranch" but if God (or Gods) does not exist, then Karma does not exist either. So, what does it matter if you harm others because this life is it."

New Hampshire has both the lowest crime rate in the U.S. and the highest percentage of atheists and a mere 18% of Swedes and 22% of Norwegians answered yes to "I believe there is a God" while those nations are hardly killing each other.

The people who can't figure out why someone would be good when there isn't a punishment/reward system attached to it... those people are the ones who lack a moral compass.

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