Published: Friday, April 18 2014 12:00 a.m. MDT
Mike Richards paraphrased:Anyone can use someone elses labor to make
a fortune and the laborers deserve zip.
@ 2 bits-I'm not as current as I probably should. What is IMO?
Also, just having some fun. These blogs can get so serious and nasty. @Mike
Richards has some interesting, informative takes but the glasses in which we
view the world are defintely with a different perscription. I enjoy reading his
2 bitsCottonwood Heights, UTTry to seeing EVERYBODY as real
people (not as Ayn Rand, Frodo, Sam, Darth Vader, catnis, Bundy, or Golum).Books and movies are great... but don't use them to simplify,
compartmentalize, stereotype the REAL people in your life.10:52 a.m.
April 18, 2014=========== Great advise -- You you think the Obama is the Anti-Christ, Lucifer, and Hitler all rolled
into one crowd will get on board with that pledge?I somehow doubt it
LDS Liberal: "You you think the Obama is the Anti-Christ, Lucifer, and
Hitler all rolled into one crowd will get on board with that pledge? I somehow
doubt it very much."No, the left firmly established that
position for G. W. Bush during his 8 years as president. Funny how liberals who
called (and continue to call) anyone in the GOP every name in the book now call
foul every time someone criticizes this president.I'm not
condoning all the bad behavior by some conservatives, but the hypocracy of the
left when it comes to name-calling would be laughable if it wasn't so
serious an issue.
Joe Capitalist, you simply a very complicated issue. Once again you like most
on the right are looking for a black and white answer when one doesn't
exist. First of all your premise that those of us who believe in a
different form of capitalism than you think getting rich is evil is just wrong.
Let me say it again just wrong.Secondly your presentation of
disagreement as thinking someone who disagrees with you is evil is simplistic
and distracting from a reasonable discussion.Thirdly, "I am evil
if I don't give all my profits to the government (just taxes ). Who ever
said you owe everything to the government? Please tell me where this comes
from. Lastly, the discussion is not about evil but what is
effective, sustainable, desirable, and productive. If you want to
join in that discussion you will be taken seriously but not when your entire
premise is, it's mine and anything to the contrary is evil.
"just their labor' - That's a pretty big "just." How many
of your widgets would have been produced without it?
@LDS Liberal,I never said your strawman. I never said, "Obama is the
Anti-Christ, Lucifer, and Hitler all rolled into one"... so don't tell
me I believe that (when I don't).See how stereotyping and
grouping people by their "Type"... goes wrong?I actually
think Obama's a pretty good guy (on most things). But since I've
been "Typed" by you... now you assume I believe all the other ridiculous
stuff you hang on everybody of that "type".If you got away
from typing people and believing all your presumptions about them are correct...
your posts would be WAY more objective and credible.=====@FT,IMO = In My Opinion. I use that one a lot because I don't
assume ANYTHING I say is "correct"... it's just MY opinion.FYI = For your Information. I use that one a lot too, because I
don't assume anything I say has any value... it's just more
information to take in and consider (or not consider, whatever, it doesn't
matter to me).
@2 bits – “Try to seeing EVERYBODY as real people (not as Ayn Rand,
Frodo, Sam, Darth Vader, catnis, Bundy, or Golum).”Love
it… especially the inclusion of “catnis” made me laugh…
thanks.But you do realize that Ayn Rand was a real person who
espoused a real ideology (full of so many straw man cartoon situations &
villains she makes Star Wars look like a WWII documentary) and had very real
followers – some in fact who are very powerful, like the former Fed
Chairman and the current House Budget Committee Chairman. That
said…@2 bits – “If you got away from typing people
and believing all your presumptions about them are correct... your posts would
be WAY more objective and credible.”This is good advice for us
all… and I say this as both a former victim and a perp.@JoeCapitalist2 – “No, the left firmly established that position
for G. W. Bush during his 8 years as president.”Really
Joe… the “two wrongs somehow make a right” defense?
We can make a difference. I am gay. I say that because it is part of what I want
to say. I work for the state and most everyone I work with is Mormon. They all
know that I am gay. None of them have ever done anything to put me down. The
opposite is true! A few years back I almost died. I had some serious operations
and it is truly an experience when you know that you won't make it without
help. I want to tell you that over a period of months or maybe more, these
Mormon co workers helped me along my path! It wasn't so much the things I
could pin point, but it was more in a spiritual way, which is what I truly
needed! It is hard for people to discuss God with me, but they did! They
listened to how I felt! They helped me keep my job! Some things are hard to put
into words! Knowing that they cared was one of the most powerful things I have
ever felt. It was scary, but I thanked every single one of them and they knew
Ok, seeing that the discussion is quickly devolving into a liberal vs.
conservative dialoge, we need to look at Sam.The liberals are all
saying that it takes a village. The difference is how the help of the village
is brought into play. The liberal mindset is that the village must be mandated
to help. The conservative says that help should be voluntary.Sam,
just like the other examples here, volunteered. Nobody forced them, and the
person who received the help was prepared to go it themselves regardless of
obtaining help. If you have actually read the Lord of the Rings you would see
that each person volunteered, nobody was forced into going on the quest. Just
like in an Amish barn raising. People are not forced to help, but do so out of
a desire to help their neighbor.So, before you liberals think that
Sam justifies forced help, think again. Remember Frodo and the others were
ready to go about their task alone, but appreciated the help that others
offered. This is what conservatives have been preaching for years. Prepare to
support yourself and your family, but also help your neighbor because you know
what help they need.
"The liberal mindset is that the village must be mandated to help. The
conservative says that help should be voluntary."Once again
Redshirt you are very wrong about the liberal position. The real liberal
position is success takes talent, preparation, and opportunity. You as an
individual are responsible for the first two either through your own doing or
sometimes talent is pure luck. However number three is very complicated. It
often depends on circumstances way outside your control which include, family,
culture, economic and world conditions, social conditions, and the list goes
on.To point number three the liberal position is not that help is
mandated, but that it is not a desirable society where someone can gain an
advantage and then use that advantage to completely dominate the rest of a
society. In those situations it is a proper role of government to
circumstances or conditions for success for those who have talent and
preparation but who otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity. It is clear through history that the advantaged will not volunteer the
opportunities nor especially will unregulated markets.
"You Olympians, however, know you didn’t get here solely on your own
power. For most of you, loving parents, sisters or brothers, encouraged your
hopes, coaches guided, communities built venues in order to organize
competitions. All Olympians stand on the shoulders of those who lifted
them." - Mitt Romney“I know that you recognize a lot of
people help you in a business. Perhaps the bank, the investors. There is no
question your mom and dad, your school teachers. The people who provide roads,
the fire, the police. A lot of people help.” - Mitt Romney"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There
was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this
unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody
invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you
didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. ...The
point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual
initiative, but also because we do things together." - Barack ObamaReally just the same message.
To "pragmatistferlife" prove it. If help is not mandated, why is it
that liberals have always pushed for more government intervention? Why is it
that during the ACA debates they said that we had to help others? Why is it
that Obama told Joe the Plumber that Joe had to help those behind him?It was liberals/Progressives (both Rs and Ds) that gave us all of the
government bailouts and recent increases to the welfare state.You
claim that liberals do not mandate that you help others, but their record says
the opposite.You yourself admit that it is the job of government to
help. You do realize that government is funded by ALL of us, and when
government wants to help somebody they do it at my expense regardless of my
personal desire to help that person.Actually, history shows that
without government force that the wealthy do volunteer. Two local examples are
John Huntsman Sr and Larry H. Miller. Historically, look at the Carneges, and
look at all of the libraries and foundations that bear the name of wealthy
people that were established over the past 100 years.
I still think it would have been a boring and pointless movie without Frodo.Or if he were drafted or forced by his government to take Sam on his journey
and save the shire...
@Redshirt"Actually, history shows that without government force that
the wealthy do volunteer. "Not nearly enough. The food stamp
cuts that were recently passed into law are the equivalent of all the food
pantries in the nation combined, the House version would've cut even more.
So... who has doubled their food donations this year?
@RedShirt – “You claim that liberals do not mandate that you help
others, but their record says the opposite.”A fair point to
some degree, but let’s look at it a different way (not so binary). If the majority of the country decides they want to help people (and
just to be clear, the vast majority of that help goes to senior citizens no
longer able to “raise their own barn”) can a vocal minority,
resenting that it will be done through taxes vs. charity, stop them?[Let’s assume its constitutionality since no SC has struck down social
security or medicare.]Seems to me your “everyone must be
onboard or it’s illegitimate” view is a direct contradiction to a
democratic republic and is something more like anarchy (not the violent kind).
That may work in a tribe or small village but it’s hardly the way to run a
country our size.
To "Tyler D" I am not arguing the method for forcing or that laws that
force others to help are illegitimate.All I am saying is that
typically the liberal/Progressive method is to force everybody to help
regardless of desire or ability to help.The typical conservatives
will help on a voluntary basis and advocates that as a government stance.To "Schnee" you also realize that nationally we have more people
on food stamps than ever before. You should also realize that food stamps are
used for more than just essential food. You can buy pizza from Papa
Murphey's, hot dogs at 7-11, and all sorts of other things that those who
don't qualify for food stamps would consider a treat. IMHO, food stamps
should be cut even more to include all junk food.
After reading all the comments so far on this forum I am amazed that if you boil
down the issues both sides want the same thing. Both sides want to culture a
village that helps each person succeed and reach their potential. The difference
is semantics. Conservatives tend to think that when each person need to take
personal responsibility and works really hard. Liberal's side tend to think
that the government is responsible to make sure each person succeeds.IMO taken to their extreme neither ideology would work. If conservatives had
complete control the US would be full of ponzi schemes and the environment would
be ruined in the name of progress. On the other hand if liberals had complete
control the average person wouldn't have any reason to try hard, and
progress and development would stop.But the big takeaway is we
should all realize we are trying to accomplish the same objective, by focusing
on what is the same it becomes easier to find ways around the differences.
@JoeCapitalist2If you invent a new kind of widget, sell $100 million of
them for $10 each, pay zero taxes, pay some (not all) your employees below
minimum wage and below a living wage, pay some of your profits to political
groups to ensure minimum wage is never raised above a living wage and did I say
pay zero taxes while paying political groups to buy the vote (because your
corporation is a person) then yes, you are evil.So, @JoeCapitalist2,
in your scenario of $10/widget produced at $7 each, how much of your 3 profit
covers the social welfare net that your employees rely on to eat? Answer that
and then we can discuss whether or not you are evil.
OneWifeOnly: Who said anything about paying zero taxes? My widget
company would pay a lot of taxes. I would pay each person by the widget (i.e.
commission). If they had the skills they would make a good wage. If they were
slow or lazy, they might not make minimum wage, but that would be their choice.
The $3 profit on each widget is my reward for inventing the widget, starting the
company, and taking all the risks.I should be able to get rich from
selling millions of widgets for a $3 profit each. I should pay some of that in
taxes, but the government shouldn't make more from my efforts than I do. I
don't owe my employees any of that profit, just the $7 that we mutually
agreed as payment for each widget they made for me. It should not matter if I
use my money to do things that you do not personally approve of.
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