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Comments about ‘There are no Frodos without Sams: The reality of interdependence’

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Published: Friday, April 18 2014 12:08 p.m. MDT

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Ranch
Here, UT

Mike Richards paraphrased:

Anyone can use someone elses labor to make a fortune and the laborers deserve zip.

FT
salt lake city, UT

@ 2 bits-
I'm not as current as I probably should. What is IMO? Also, just having some fun. These blogs can get so serious and nasty. @Mike Richards has some interesting, informative takes but the glasses in which we view the world are defintely with a different perscription. I enjoy reading his posts.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Try to seeing EVERYBODY as real people (not as Ayn Rand, Frodo, Sam, Darth Vader, catnis, Bundy, or Golum).

Books and movies are great... but don't use them to simplify, compartmentalize, stereotype the REAL people in your life.

10:52 a.m. April 18, 2014

===========

Great advise --

You you think the Obama is the Anti-Christ, Lucifer, and Hitler all rolled into one crowd will get on board with that pledge?

I somehow doubt it very much.

JoeCapitalist2
Orem, UT

LDS Liberal: "You you think the Obama is the Anti-Christ, Lucifer, and Hitler all rolled into one crowd will get on board with that pledge? I somehow doubt it very much."

No, the left firmly established that position for G. W. Bush during his 8 years as president. Funny how liberals who called (and continue to call) anyone in the GOP every name in the book now call foul every time someone criticizes this president.

I'm not condoning all the bad behavior by some conservatives, but the hypocracy of the left when it comes to name-calling would be laughable if it wasn't so serious an issue.

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

Joe Capitalist, you simply a very complicated issue. Once again you like most on the right are looking for a black and white answer when one doesn't exist.

First of all your premise that those of us who believe in a different form of capitalism than you think getting rich is evil is just wrong. Let me say it again just wrong.

Secondly your presentation of disagreement as thinking someone who disagrees with you is evil is simplistic and distracting from a reasonable discussion.

Thirdly, "I am evil if I don't give all my profits to the government (just taxes ). Who ever said you owe everything to the government? Please tell me where this comes from.

Lastly, the discussion is not about evil but what is effective, sustainable, desirable, and productive.

If you want to join in that discussion you will be taken seriously but not when your entire premise is, it's mine and anything to the contrary is evil.

GZE
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

"just their labor' - That's a pretty big "just." How many of your widgets would have been produced without it?

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

@LDS Liberal,
I never said your strawman. I never said, "Obama is the Anti-Christ, Lucifer, and Hitler all rolled into one"... so don't tell me I believe that (when I don't).

See how stereotyping and grouping people by their "Type"... goes wrong?

I actually think Obama's a pretty good guy (on most things). But since I've been "Typed" by you... now you assume I believe all the other ridiculous stuff you hang on everybody of that "type".

If you got away from typing people and believing all your presumptions about them are correct... your posts would be WAY more objective and credible.

=====

@FT,
IMO = In My Opinion. I use that one a lot because I don't assume ANYTHING I say is "correct"... it's just MY opinion.

FYI = For your Information. I use that one a lot too, because I don't assume anything I say has any value... it's just more information to take in and consider (or not consider, whatever, it doesn't matter to me).

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@2 bits – “Try to seeing EVERYBODY as real people (not as Ayn Rand, Frodo, Sam, Darth Vader, catnis, Bundy, or Golum).”

Love it… especially the inclusion of “catnis” made me laugh… thanks.

But you do realize that Ayn Rand was a real person who espoused a real ideology (full of so many straw man cartoon situations & villains she makes Star Wars look like a WWII documentary) and had very real followers – some in fact who are very powerful, like the former Fed Chairman and the current House Budget Committee Chairman.

That said…

@2 bits – “If you got away from typing people and believing all your presumptions about them are correct... your posts would be WAY more objective and credible.”

This is good advice for us all… and I say this as both a former victim and a perp.

@JoeCapitalist2 – “No, the left firmly established that position for G. W. Bush during his 8 years as president.”

Really Joe… the “two wrongs somehow make a right” defense?

RFLASH
Salt Lake City, UT

We can make a difference. I am gay. I say that because it is part of what I want to say. I work for the state and most everyone I work with is Mormon. They all know that I am gay. None of them have ever done anything to put me down. The opposite is true! A few years back I almost died. I had some serious operations and it is truly an experience when you know that you won't make it without help. I want to tell you that over a period of months or maybe more, these Mormon co workers helped me along my path! It wasn't so much the things I could pin point, but it was more in a spiritual way, which is what I truly needed! It is hard for people to discuss God with me, but they did! They listened to how I felt! They helped me keep my job! Some things are hard to put into words! Knowing that they cared was one of the most powerful things I have ever felt. It was scary, but I thanked every single one of them and they knew why!

RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

Ok, seeing that the discussion is quickly devolving into a liberal vs. conservative dialoge, we need to look at Sam.

The liberals are all saying that it takes a village. The difference is how the help of the village is brought into play. The liberal mindset is that the village must be mandated to help. The conservative says that help should be voluntary.

Sam, just like the other examples here, volunteered. Nobody forced them, and the person who received the help was prepared to go it themselves regardless of obtaining help. If you have actually read the Lord of the Rings you would see that each person volunteered, nobody was forced into going on the quest. Just like in an Amish barn raising. People are not forced to help, but do so out of a desire to help their neighbor.

So, before you liberals think that Sam justifies forced help, think again. Remember Frodo and the others were ready to go about their task alone, but appreciated the help that others offered. This is what conservatives have been preaching for years. Prepare to support yourself and your family, but also help your neighbor because you know what help they need.

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

"The liberal mindset is that the village must be mandated to help. The conservative says that help should be voluntary."

Once again Redshirt you are very wrong about the liberal position. The real liberal position is success takes talent, preparation, and opportunity. You as an individual are responsible for the first two either through your own doing or sometimes talent is pure luck. However number three is very complicated. It often depends on circumstances way outside your control which include, family, culture, economic and world conditions, social conditions, and the list goes on.

To point number three the liberal position is not that help is mandated, but that it is not a desirable society where someone can gain an advantage and then use that advantage to completely dominate the rest of a society. In those situations it is a proper role of government to circumstances or conditions for success for those who have talent and preparation but who otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity.

It is clear through history that the advantaged will not volunteer the opportunities nor especially will unregulated markets.

Schnee
Salt Lake City, UT

"You Olympians, however, know you didn’t get here solely on your own power. For most of you, loving parents, sisters or brothers, encouraged your hopes, coaches guided, communities built venues in order to organize competitions. All Olympians stand on the shoulders of those who lifted them." - Mitt Romney

“I know that you recognize a lot of people help you in a business. Perhaps the bank, the investors. There is no question your mom and dad, your school teachers. The people who provide roads, the fire, the police. A lot of people help.” - Mitt Romney

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.
...
The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together." - Barack Obama

Really just the same message.

RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

To "pragmatistferlife" prove it. If help is not mandated, why is it that liberals have always pushed for more government intervention? Why is it that during the ACA debates they said that we had to help others? Why is it that Obama told Joe the Plumber that Joe had to help those behind him?

It was liberals/Progressives (both Rs and Ds) that gave us all of the government bailouts and recent increases to the welfare state.

You claim that liberals do not mandate that you help others, but their record says the opposite.

You yourself admit that it is the job of government to help. You do realize that government is funded by ALL of us, and when government wants to help somebody they do it at my expense regardless of my personal desire to help that person.

Actually, history shows that without government force that the wealthy do volunteer. Two local examples are John Huntsman Sr and Larry H. Miller. Historically, look at the Carneges, and look at all of the libraries and foundations that bear the name of wealthy people that were established over the past 100 years.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

I still think it would have been a boring and pointless movie without Frodo.
Or if he were drafted or forced by his government to take Sam on his journey and save the shire...

Schnee
Salt Lake City, UT

@Redshirt
"Actually, history shows that without government force that the wealthy do volunteer. "

Not nearly enough. The food stamp cuts that were recently passed into law are the equivalent of all the food pantries in the nation combined, the House version would've cut even more. So... who has doubled their food donations this year?

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@RedShirt – “You claim that liberals do not mandate that you help others, but their record says the opposite.”

A fair point to some degree, but let’s look at it a different way (not so binary).

If the majority of the country decides they want to help people (and just to be clear, the vast majority of that help goes to senior citizens no longer able to “raise their own barn”) can a vocal minority, resenting that it will be done through taxes vs. charity, stop them?

[Let’s assume its constitutionality since no SC has struck down social security or medicare.]

Seems to me your “everyone must be onboard or it’s illegitimate” view is a direct contradiction to a democratic republic and is something more like anarchy (not the violent kind). That may work in a tribe or small village but it’s hardly the way to run a country our size.

RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

To "Tyler D" I am not arguing the method for forcing or that laws that force others to help are illegitimate.

All I am saying is that typically the liberal/Progressive method is to force everybody to help regardless of desire or ability to help.

The typical conservatives will help on a voluntary basis and advocates that as a government stance.

To "Schnee" you also realize that nationally we have more people on food stamps than ever before. You should also realize that food stamps are used for more than just essential food. You can buy pizza from Papa Murphey's, hot dogs at 7-11, and all sorts of other things that those who don't qualify for food stamps would consider a treat. IMHO, food stamps should be cut even more to include all junk food.

bricha
lehi, ut

After reading all the comments so far on this forum I am amazed that if you boil down the issues both sides want the same thing. Both sides want to culture a village that helps each person succeed and reach their potential. The difference is semantics. Conservatives tend to think that when each person need to take personal responsibility and works really hard. Liberal's side tend to think that the government is responsible to make sure each person succeeds.

IMO taken to their extreme neither ideology would work. If conservatives had complete control the US would be full of ponzi schemes and the environment would be ruined in the name of progress. On the other hand if liberals had complete control the average person wouldn't have any reason to try hard, and progress and development would stop.

But the big takeaway is we should all realize we are trying to accomplish the same objective, by focusing on what is the same it becomes easier to find ways around the differences.

OneWifeOnly
San Diego, CA

@JoeCapitalist2
If you invent a new kind of widget, sell $100 million of them for $10 each, pay zero taxes, pay some (not all) your employees below minimum wage and below a living wage, pay some of your profits to political groups to ensure minimum wage is never raised above a living wage and did I say pay zero taxes while paying political groups to buy the vote (because your corporation is a person) then yes, you are evil.

So, @JoeCapitalist2, in your scenario of $10/widget produced at $7 each, how much of your 3 profit covers the social welfare net that your employees rely on to eat? Answer that and then we can discuss whether or not you are evil.

JoeCapitalist2
Orem, UT

OneWifeOnly:

Who said anything about paying zero taxes? My widget company would pay a lot of taxes. I would pay each person by the widget (i.e. commission). If they had the skills they would make a good wage. If they were slow or lazy, they might not make minimum wage, but that would be their choice. The $3 profit on each widget is my reward for inventing the widget, starting the company, and taking all the risks.

I should be able to get rich from selling millions of widgets for a $3 profit each. I should pay some of that in taxes, but the government shouldn't make more from my efforts than I do. I don't owe my employees any of that profit, just the $7 that we mutually agreed as payment for each widget they made for me. It should not matter if I use my money to do things that you do not personally approve of.

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