cjb: How do we know they haven't? Maybe that explains why they have so
many kids! LOL!!
Doklove,"My point is that you should put more emphasis on
developing the more important qualities AND more emphasis on the more
challenging to develop qualities"And yet why did you feel the
need to counter my argument if I never argued this idea?Never did I
suggest a couple not work on communicationNever did I suggest it
wasn't very important.Never did I suggest communicatin
wasn't even more important than physical intimacy. I've
only ever said that the physical side is important.You are the one
who suggested my argument only holds true if A and B are equally important.
And yet my only argument was that if we're saying communication is
important and that couples should work and develop that then the same argument
holds true for the physical side.As far as what percentage who
divorced kissed before marriage? Come on now, you're really stretching.What percentage of couples that stay together kissed before marriage?
Likely nearly all - so I guess that means couples need to kiss before marriage
@Christopher B. I agree with you. If they focused ONLY on the most important
thing then they would be ignoring a lot of lesser, but important facets to their
relationship. You must have misunderstood my point. My point is that you
should put more emphasis on developing the more important qualities AND more
emphasis on the more challenging to develop qualities. Physical intimacy is
very important, but I would argue that a couple that has established good
communication outside of the bedroom first will be much more likely to develop
good communication inside of the bedroom. Of the couples that end
up divorced for whatever reason what percentage, would you guess, kissed prior
to marriage? I would guess almost all- indicating that kissing prior to
marriage doesn't solve problems later on. But I believe this couple who is
putting their effort into developing a strong relationship, through whatever
means, will do better than average because they are trying.
I'm fine with how they parent their children, it's their relationship
with their adult children that bothers me. It bothers me that the parents are
chaperoning adults and all over each other teasing them that they can't be
close yet. They have over 20 people living at home. Twenty year olds sharing
bedrooms with three year olds. They don't need two chaperones for video
calls. There is no privacy. You can reserve closeness for marriage and live on
your own and attend college away from home. When they magically marry they
won't be prepared to resist temptation cause they have never been taught to
do so. It's not up to them. In another interview Michelle said "dad
allows them a side hug at saying hello and goodbye". Maybe they agree, but
they have no choices for working and leaving home. All their travel and
education is with accountability partners or online. They don't even know
anyone likes them until dad gets involved and let's them speak. And as
Elizabeth Smart has said there is a danger is teaching kids purity is all
Doklove,"@Chris B- Your argument only holds up if both A and B
are equally important AND equally challenging to accomplish"Not
even close to true.If that were the case every person should
determine what the single most important thing in their life is and ONLY do that
thing.The truth is our lives are filled with thousands of things
that are important(to different degrees) and we don't only do the most
important thing. That's just silly to believe that if thing A is more
important than thing B a couple should only do thing A, even in courtship."I have yet to meet a couple that has not stayed together because
they didn't like how their partner kissed"Financial
problems are often cited as the top reason for divorce. However, a wide variety
of intimacy issues also contribute to many divorces - a simple and tame google
search will prove it through many studies. If you really believe that
kissing(intimacy) issues don't contribute to marital problems, I suggest
you learn what you may not want to.
@ Grammy3 They didn't have 19 kids so that they could make money off of it.
They also have never set themselves up as the standard of how to parent. They
did what they feel was right and producers came to them and offered them to be
in the spotlight. They felt that it might be their way of fulfilling Matthew
5:14-16. I don't see how them making money off their life is any worse
than any entertainer making money off what they do. If they had kids mainly for
the reason of exploiting them in this way then I would agree with you, but they
are living their lives the way they would with or without TLC (albeit quite a
bit richer) and we as a society are willing to pay them for it. Great!
@Chris B- Your argument only holds up if both A and B are equally important AND
equally challenging to accomplish. I have known many relationships dissolve
because of poor communication. I have yet to meet a couple that has not stayed
together because they didn't like how their partner kissed. This is why I
see your argument as completely opposite to their objectives. Now
is it scientifically proven that not kissing will improve communication- No, nor
am I advocating that people embrace this life choice, however, I respect that in
a world of hypersexualization and poor marital dedication a couple is trying to
do something that they believe will make their marriage stronger. I think they
will succeed- not because they didn't kiss, but because they are showing
dedication to making their marriage strong. I also think they will learn how to
kiss just fine.
I enjoy watching the Duggers and I learn much about how we could have raised our
8 children better. I think 19 kids is probably excessive or extreme but they do
a good job. I don't have to agree with everything about someone's life
to learn from them. I think it would be good for Hollywood and New York to
notice that there are Americans who don't follow the values of the liberals
on the coasts. The "fly-over" people could also be considered the
"glue" people that hold the country together. The popularity of the
Duggers shows conservative values have a following. We aren't all drinking
the Kool-aid of liberalism and hedonism.
As usual, the comments are better than the article.
Thank you for being steadfast in your standards. Your courage and total
commitment to your future spouse is inspiring to my life. I now am strengthened
in my commitment to remain worthy until I meet the love of my life and to be
more devoted to her after marriage. May your marriage be a shining pillar of
light in this ever-darkening world.
I have had a very hard time with this family. I think that it is great that they
have 19 children and are good people but the problem that I have with them is
that they are making money off of people because they have 19 children. I have a
niece in law who came from a family of 14 children but you do not see them on
t.v. and trying to show everyone how to live. I am sorry I do believe in waiting
for certain things until you are married but please do not go around and brag
about it or tell everyone about it. It just does not settle well with most
I respect Jill Duggar and Derick Dillard's decision in regards to their
obedience to the laws of God and their commitment to each other. Sexual
expression of love shows the deepest devotion and respect that a husband and
wife can give to each other. If they decidee to remain chaste and wait until
marriage then God bless them. I honor them for that.
Tajemnica - And yet as much as you seem to disagree, your only argument is that
you believe I am wrong. As you may be aware there are some cultures
where the parents pick the spouses for the children and the first conversation
the couples have is on their wedding day. These couples obviously don't
have physical intimacy before marriage either. And even with very little to no
communication taking place between these couples before marriage, they typically
stay together and have good families. But the whole notion of
"we're not going to kiss because we want to better communicate"
doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. They've been dating for month and
months - kissing does not prevent couples from getting to know each other. And
just as verbal communication will be important in marriage, so will physical
intimacy be. Saying we shouldn't do thing A because we want to
focus on thing B is not inherently any better than focusing on A instead of
doing B if its determined that both A and B are important in a marriage.
@ maq I was not advocating premarital sex as a prequel. But this
family has taken it to the extreme by forbidding mostly innocent and natural
forms of affection, and in effect sexualizing them. The children being taught
that these types of affection are wrong outside of marriage has to have some
residual affect. I am sure you hugged, held hands, and even kissed before you
@Chris BEspecially regarding your most recent comment: Your argument,
"There is nothing more correct or admirable about a couple saving kissing
than there would be if another couple saved talking longer than 5 minutes per
day to each other." is completely ludicrous. They have nothing to do with
each other. I have seen you post some pretty random, off the wall, and
completely false things about a variety of topics before but you have never nor
could ever be more incorrect in your arguments on this forum. I didn't save
my first kiss for marriage nor do I look down on anyone else that doesn't.
But it would have benefitted me if I had.
@noncelebComing from someone who abstained from premarital sex
pre-marriage I can tell you that you are 100% incorrect. It immediately became
the most sacred act of creation in concert with God. There was no issue with a
psychological transition and I know that most in similar circumstances will
agree. If you've ever watched the show you will see that Josh, the oldest
Duggar child had no problem with this after he got married. I thought it would
be ackward after I got married but my thoughts were to no avail.
Even better .. they should commit to never having sex after marriage unless the
purpose is to have a child.
No kissing before marriage? That quite likely explains the 19 kids. After WW2
the soldiers came back and after their long years of being deprived of being
with a woman, the baby boom happened
The parents have 19 kids!Based on the story they suppressed their
physical "emotions" before marriage.They have 19 kids! ???
@Doklove - You are right that pressure isn't the right word if they truly
want to do it, as opposed to only doing it because they feel they should. However, your comment about them doing it for exactly the reason to
build better communication doesn't really counter anything I've said.
Communication is part of a relationship. So is physical intimacy. Saying they are saving kissing for marriage is again no different than saving
longer talks for marriage and only talking for 5 minutes a day. There is nothing more correct or admirable about a couple saving kissing than
there would be if another couple saved talking longer than 5 minutes per day to
They are being taught that kissing, holding hands or other kinds of physical
affection are sexual in nature and inevitably lead to sexual arousal. The
problem is that attitudes about physical affection being a sin before marriage
carries over after marriage. It is not easy to transition psychologically from
premarital sex, and acts which lead to it, being one of the worst sins one can
commit, to sex being the most sacred act of creation in concert with God.
@hutteriteIgnorance is bliss for you isn't it. It's
apparant you know nothing about this family. Yes they get money from TLC but
they have plenty of money from realty projects and they had that abundant income
long ago. You are probably right in your comment as it regards to many other
people on reality tv where that is their primary income but do yourself a favor
and don't comment on someone or something you know nothing about
@Chris B. If someone makes a life decision of their own free will, as was
pointed out in the article, how is that "religious pressure"- even if
the decision is based in religious beliefs? That would be like saying you watch
an athletic event because of societal pressure. Can't they make up their
own mind? Also, your relating of their decision to holding off on communication
was exactly opposite to their point as they explain that they are trying to
focus on building a non-physical relationship through communication.@Cheesecake- Your analogy fits perfectly if marriage is only about physical
relationships, which would be a pretty poor basis of a marriage. They are
trying to develop a friendship and establish good patterns of communication-
which I would argue is the "running" of your analogy to prepare for a
marathon of marriage. Holding hands, kissing and sex is the easy part.Why is it that if someone sets a standard for themselves that is more rigorous
than what we hold we pick them apart. Its not hurting me.
Like training for a marathon by refusing to go running...
It's great that these enormous family religious oddities have reality tv to
run to for income and support.
No hand holding until an engagement?This is religious pressure(and
yes it stems from religion) gone overboardIs it wrong? No, they
certainly can choose.But it doesn't make any more sense than a
couple saying "we are never going to talk to each other for more than 5
minutes a day before we are married because we want to save that special
communication of longer discussion for marriage"