RikitikitaviCardston, Alberta...sadly society should not
be surprised to watch so many same sex couples who rush to wed all too soon
split apart. Statistics are not on their side. Getting what they wanted is one
thing...the reality of commitment and loyalty may well be something else
altogether.-------------------The average time those
couples that wed in December/Jan is over 10 years together. Compared to the
average time my Mormon friends date before marriage, I think these couples have
a good idea what it takes to be committed. Of all the people that I know who
married during that time, only one couple had been dating less than 1 year. Can
you say that about most couples who are marrying here in Utah? Their chances of staying together are excellent. If they had been together
for so long without being married, what is to stop them with marriage?People have the idea that these were just couples who were dating and just
decided to run down and get married because they could! Not true! These
couples were already committed to each other and when the opportunity opened up,
emails went out, and these committed couples got married.
We already have ''The Family: A Proclamation to the World''
regarding the design of the family unit as designed by our Creator and doctrine
that runs counter to that Proclamation is false and cannot be trusted.
...sadly society should not be surprised to watch so many same sex couples who
rush to wed all too soon split apart. Statistics are not on their side. Getting
what they wanted is one thing...the reality of commitment and loyalty may well
be something else altogether.
Listening to Doug Wright on KSL this morning he interviewed the lawyer for one
of the couples trying to adopt. Reyes really took a blind sided swipe at them
with this legal maneuvering. I felt sorry for the people that got hit by this
@NoodleKaboodle:"I can tell you how it's bigoted. Two different
judges approved these adoptions. . . . The AG's office is only doing it
because they don't agree with the lifestyle of these two couples.
That's the definition of bigotry my friend."I don't
believe in the infallibility of judges. Maybe the AGs office is doing it
because:1) it is their job to defend the state's laws and they are
concerned that same sex adoption could be used as a wedge to force Utah to
accept SSM, 2)they could be thinkng that if we redefine marriage to include one
type of non-procreative union then we are going to have give marriage benefits
to all other non-procreative unions and/or that defending traditional marriage
is a way to send a message that couples should marry before they have children.
4) etc.A few years back a Palestinian attacked an Israeli military
outpost in the West Bank. People referred to him as a terrorist. There was
nothing terroristic about his attack. He attacked a military facility occupying
his country.The term 'terrorist' is misused like the term
'bigotry' is being misused in this debate.
I hope the judges in Denver catch this nugget of information. It
should leave such a bad taste that if there is any doubt about "animus"
the doubt will be totally washed away.
Once again any support or reference regarding equality for all and
acknowledgement that reality is soon to arrive in Utah after the Federal Court
ruling is denied by D.N. monitors. Perfect example of why things are in need of
change in this great state. Believe it or not there are others who are not
Mormon and believe in simple equality and it's about time others realize.
@ Lovely Desert...Does not Arizona have enough of their own problems? A
simplistic Google search reveals some startling negative information. I'm
sorry but there are many of us here in Utah that believe in equity for all and
do not desire the view that most have of a backwards thinking state such as
Arizona. How about focusing on issues in your state. One knows there are plenty
ObjectifiedTooele, UT@ Bob K and NoodlekaBootle:"Very
short sighted to try to blame this common sense action on the LDS
church."---- Very dishonest to say I blame in on the lds
church. You are twisting words.I blame it on Utah officials kissing the
hand of church leaders and the most conservative members. Utah government is
considered almost a joke, on the subject of putting fairness and truth ahead of
any conflicts with conservative mormons.--- The rest of what you
wrote is completely disgusting, untrue, and not worthy of reply
@LovelyDeseret: "I am so glad Utah is preventing these adoptions. Good,
strong, healthy families are of the most importance to Utah."My
partner and I adopted 1 child with special needs and have fostered and are
adopting a second special needs child. We are lesbians. Two moms.
"Good strong families" with straight couples didn't want these kids
because they had problems. But you are saying they would be better in foster
care, bouncing around the system than with two moms who love them and have them
doing well?If the state of Utah thinks kids in foster care who need
parents and a family that love them will be better off waiting and waiting and
waiting instead of being with two dads or two moms then they need to talk to the
kids and find out the truth.We are part of a a gay/lesbian adoptive
parents support group and the kids who now have families are thrilled and happy
and don't want to go back to foster care ever. I can't
believe you think those kids are better in the system than they are with loving
@aceroinox;Nature may decree whatever it wants. Man has the
ability, today, to create a human being by cloning an existing human being. No
male/female genders required. We may not be doing it for ethical reasons, but
that doesn't mean it can't be done.
@ El Chango Supremo"I'm sure there was no political bias
behind any of those studies…(sarcasm)"Sooooo --- the point
of your sarcasm is that studies establishing bad outcomes for children in
situations of divorce, poverty, single parent-hood -- or where parents have low
educational levels, substance abuse problems, mental health issues, etc. are all
because of bias on the part of the researchers?Alright . . . I trust
the intelligence of DN readers to evaluate the effectiveness of that bit of
Utah has not only the appearance of evil but an evil, mean spirited soul. To all
of you who say a child deserves both a mother and a father please take a look at
Kenneth Faried of the Denver Nuggets. He was raised by two mothers since the age
of 7. He seems to have turned out alright. In this world we have to make the
best of what we have. Those that put barriers up to prevent people from loving
and marrying whom they wish are doing a disservice to to their community and
fellow human beings.
Values Voter:I'm sure there was no political bias behind any of
those studies...(sarcasm) Personal experience from many many people
dictates that one can't replace Mom with another Dad or vise-versa and get
the same result.
@copactic"Social tests have determined that being raised by both
natural parents is the ideal.""Though being raised in a trational
family setting doesn't guarantee anything"Then stop
applying averages as if it's a universal truth. Black children score lower
on average on SAT scores, are they harmed? Poor children have higher delinquency
rates, are they harmed? Should those marriages be prevented? Should they be
prevented from adopting children? No, of course not. But that argument is fair
game for gay people. Why? Because a lot of people need an excuse to justify
It appears to me that Utah is one of the most hate filled places on the planet.
@acerinox:"We have only to review Father's Day messages,
including from President Obama, for a reminder of the devastating impact of
fatherless homes on society and the children involved."Amen to
that. (I mean 'Amen' as a figure of speech.) If we dilute the
meaning of marriage by calling it things that it is not the institution loses
cultural importance. Marriage is society's way of saying that men should
be responsible for their procreative actions.The one example that
has driven this home to me is one time I visited a youth detention center to
tell multicultural stories to young men. People who were there because they
broke the law enough times that the overworked justice system finally woke up.
I told a story and one of the inmates could not understand the point about a man
meeting his father in the field of battle when his father was the enemy. He
asked, "How did he know that it was his father?"I submit
that the reason he was there was because he came from an environment where one
would not know one's own father. That is why defending marriage is a
Copacetic wrote:"Though current data of adults raised in a SSM
environment is still very limited, it's very possible that long-term issues
with those eventual adults might also indicate disproportionate numbers of
people having social issues. Time will tell."What, exactly, is
your point? Please spell it out. Whatever the situation is, or turns
out to be with respect to "SSM parenting environments", there are,
--right now-- impressive accumulations of social science data establishing the
"sub-optimal" outcomes for children of non-college educated parents,
children with parents living at or below the poverty line, children of divorced
heterosexual parents, children of single parents, children in step families, and
so on. There are other distinct groups for whom "sub-optimal child
outcomes" are well established -- no "time will tell" about it --
and yet no one suggests, a.) barring individuals in those groups from being
parents, and b.) barring them from marriage. Why does the
"sub-optimal child outcomes" yardstick only appear when we're
discussing the possibility of allowing gay people to marry?
The poster "Liberty for All" is not living up to their name here.
Chalk up another example of Utahns using the machinations of government in an
attempt to destroy families. This is hypocrisy in it's most vile form.
I'm LDS, married in the Temple, and cannot imagine life without
my family but I also recognize that a family dynamic can exist in various other
settings and it is not incumbent upon religious folk to force their version of
family on the state to the detriment of others. LGBT people love and care for
their kids just as much as Utah Mormons. LDS doctrine teaches of a
pre-mortal existence wherein a great division occurred over the plans of free
agency or compulsion. The AG Sean Reyes is demonstrating what path he
ultimately follows now that he's been given a taste of power.
Re: Bob K "What happens to the kids?It's not like the Gay folks
are stealing children for whom dozens of other loving homes of married opposite
sex couples were waiting. Gay people often adopt the "hard to place"
kids."This is an act of cruelty. There's the old saying
"what goes around comes around." Well, Utah is going to pay and pay and
pay for this.
These arguments tend to focus on the rights of adults. Concern is expressed for
the children involved, but remember--they have no choice in the matter. As the
weakest party in the transaction, government must look after THEIR rights before
those of the adults involved. What are those rights? Nature decrees
that a father and a mother are required for conception. We know intuitively (if
we are being intellectually honest) that there are unique "goods" that
both a mother and a father bring to the raising and nurture of a child, based on
the innate characteristics and strengths of men and women (please don't
even try to argue the absence of basic differences!). We have only to review
Father's Day messages, including from President Obama, for a reminder of
the devastating impact of fatherless homes on society and the children involved.
One can cite all the "research" one wants, but in our gut we know that
both mothers and fathers matter to children, and that a traditional
mother-father home is best. We admire those single parents who must go it alone,
but laws should favor the optimum scenario.
Objectified, why did the state of Utah change their argument this morning,
removing any reference to what kind of parents gay couples are? Why aren't
they fighting for the children of gay couples as having a bad situation to put
children in? What has changed?The studies that proport to prove
that children of gays do poorly have been completely discredited! They cannot
use these studies and will not call the people who conducted them as witnesses.
They proved to be that dishonest in the Michigan trial.I know a few
kids who are being raised by gays. They know that their family is different. I
also know a few African-American kids being raised by white parents. They too
know that their family is different. I was raised in a family of 9 children. I
knew that my family was different too. Some children have step-parents. Some
children are being raised by their grandparents. Every family deserves the
support and benefits that we can give them - including these gay families, who
are already raising these children and would like these kids to have the
security of having two parents.
@ Schnee:Objectified talked about his/her desire to be raised by
"a traditional family setting", not just by a natural parent who may
choose to force their child to be raised in a SSM setting. Social
tests have determined that being raised by both natural parents is the ideal.
Kids raised by single parents (natural or not) end up with more social issues
and societal problems in general. Though many people raised by single parents
become normal, healthy adults, people in prisons were raised by a
disproportionate ratio of single parents. Missing the influence of a father or a
mother becomes obvious and a fact that shouldn't be downplayed or
ignored.Though current data of adults raised in a SSM environment is
still very limited, it's very possible that long-term issues with those
eventual adults might also indicate disproportionate numbers of people having
social issues. Time will tell.Though being raised in a trational
family setting doesn't guarantee anything, it's still shown to be the
best overall environment for raising children. A higher percentage of those
children have fewer problems later in life. And until other validated data
indicates otherwise, we should rely on that.
@ObjectifiedThe reason I brought up the LDS church was
libertyforall's comment that said Mr Reyes must have been listening during
general conference. All i'm saying about that is that i'm a Utahn(born
and raised) i'm a taxpayer, and I deserve an AG that follows the law, not
the marching orders of one religion. I wouldn't be ok with Mr Reyes if he
was doing the same thing after a Catholic or Baptist conference, but Mr. Reyes
is mormon, and that was the religion that it was implied that he was following
orders from, not any other church. That's why I brought up the LDS church.
As these DN articles are being bombarded onto us, the eyes of the country and
the world are being opened to the "real Utah". Formerly advertised
as a beautiful state abounding with amazing forests, mountains, skiing, hiking,
and natural wonders. Everyone has wanted to spend time in Utah. The state
is thought to be filled with loving Mormon people in happy neighborhoods who
make visitors feel welcome. Who wants to venture that this description of
Utah will continue?There is going to be an entirely new way to describe
this state.......and it's no longer going to be "Beautiful and
So, to those saying that this helps the family..These kids up for
adoption currently have no family. They have two people willing to take full
legal responsibility for them, love them as their own and raise them, and you
are saying the state Foster Care system is better than that???They
are in the foster system now because there aren't enough people
adopting.You can think whatever you want about what makes a good
family, but in this case isn't two moms or two dads better than no moms and
@Liberty For All;You seem to think that the AG works for the LDS
Church. It doesn't matter what was said in general conference last
weekend, the AG is not an LDS lackey (or at least he shouldn't be).
Can anybody honestly say there's "no animus" towards gays here?
Just read the very first comment from LovelyDesert.
@ Hutterite:You have absolutely no way of knowing if the SSM couples
involved were "good strong healthy families". The only thing you
actually know from this article is that they are same-sex couples. The article
doesn't validate anything about whether they are good or strong or
healthy... and even the term families is a stretch in this situation, since
courts all over the country are still trying to make rulings on such highly
controversial matters. As such, your statement once again indicates
your inherent ultra-liberal bias in this and other social matters. And where
bias is, objectiveness is not.
@Objectified"I tried to put myself in their shoes and I would
absolutely abhor being raised without a traditional father and mother family
setting."These are kids for whom one of the two parents IS their
natural parent, the argument isn't same-sex couple as parents or putting
the kids elsewhere, the argument is between same-sex couple as parents, or only
having one of those gay people as a parent.
@ Bob K and NoodlekaBootle:Very short sighted to try to blame this
common sense action on the LDS church. The Catholic church and lots of other
traditional (non-activist) churches are just as opposed to SSM and adoption as
the LDS church. Even many conservative athiests remain opposed. The
fact that only 2% of society participates in homosexual relationships indicates
they are an aberation to natural man-woman relationships. It's totally
understandable why being raised in such an unnatural environment would cause
social issues and problems for those children effected. I tried to
put myself in their shoes and I would absolutely abhor being raised without a
traditional father and mother family setting. As such, why should I or anyone
who feels similarly pretend to feel otherwise just to try to feel politically
correct or appease SSM advocates?Just because one or two activist
judges ruled this way doesn't make it right. There was a time when the
Supreme Court and many other federal judges ruled that slavery was legal. That
certainly didn't make it right. No more so than these 2 judges rulings. And
since a silimar ruling is on hold, so should this be.
It's sad to see kids denied good strong healthy families. And, it almost
sounds embarrassing to make this argument when single people raise kids. The
attorney general, whether on his own volition or because he's being pushed
into it, is making what are almost silly arguments.
So a kid with one gay parent is okay, a kid with two gay parents, that's
harmful and must be stopped? Nonsensical logic that is...
@TekakaromatagiI can tell you how it's bigoted. Two different judges
approved these adoptions. If it's an opposite sex couple than anything else
the do in relation to making their adoption official is just a formality, what
you really need is a judges approval. But even though a judge approved it, and
there is no legal basis to not go through with these adoptions, the state is
denying them the right, even though a stay has not been issued by the courts.
The AG's office is only doing it because they don't agree with the
lifestyle of these two couples. That's the definition of bigotry my friend.
Michigan findings of fact and conclusions of law:Every major
professional organization in this country whose focus is the health and
well-being of children and families has reviewed the data on outcomes for
children raised by lesbian and gay couples, including the methods by which the
data were collected, and have concluded that these children are not
disadvantaged compared to children raised in heterosexual parent households.
Organizations expressing support for parenting, adoption, and/or fostering by
lesbian and gay couples include (but are not limited to): American Medical
Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Psychiatric Association,
American Academy of Child and AdolescentPsychiatry, American Psychoanalytic
Association, American Psychological Association, Child Welfare League of
America, National Association of Social Workers, and the Donaldson Adoption
Institute."The APA unanimously voted in favor of issuing a
position statement that research has shown that the adjustment, development, and
psychological well-being of children is unrelated to parental sexual orientation
and that the children of lesbian and gay parents are as likely as those of
heterosexual parents to flourish. Law professor Vivek Sankaran testified that
marriage bans destabilizes children raised by same-sex couples in the event the
legal parent dies or becomes incapacitated."
"This sicking, demeaning action on the part of the AG illustrates the true
nature of those who wish continued state-sponsored bigotry and
discrimination."Don't just say how it is bigoted. Explain
how it is bigoted.If they allow the adoption, a lot of lawyers will
say, "They allow adoptions, therefore, they intended for their to be same
sex marriage.I read an essay about a man who was raised by two
lesbian mothers. He said that he was socially awkwards because he never had the
example of male social skills in his home.Just last night I read about a
court case where a baby was adopted and the mother's female live-in partner
sued to have her listed as the child's 'father' on the birth
certificate.People will say here that all a child needs is love.
But when the child grows up and finds out that a judge, the state and her mother
and mother's partner participated in an obvious fraud that child is not
going to trust anyone.
(I'm doubtful my messages will pass the censors, but here goes)My marriage was previously banned in many states, and the welfare of the kids
was put up as a defense of the laws banning marriages between racial groups.Fortunately, by the time I got married those laws had been outlawed, and
though we were warned that people wouldn't accept our marriage and the
children would have a tough time, that hasn't happened, and our kids are
all on track to be college graduates, successful in life.If my wife
and I had met before 1967, our 26 year marriage and four successful offspring
would not have occurred.
@LibertyforallOh, I'm confused, I thought that there was supposed to
be a separation of church and state, not state officials taking orders from a
religious conference. Honestly, anyone who believes in the rule of law should be
disgusted by this. A judge validated these adoptions. It's not Sean
Reyes's job to issue his own stay because he doesn't like a ruling, or
to deny these people there rights, while trying to get a stay. It's not how
it works. Utah's elected officials hatered of gays(you can't justify
treating someone like this unless you hate them) is going to make them look
foolish after time. You know how people still talk about the LDS church not
granting full membership to black people until 1978, ya this is going to look
just as bad in 20 years.
Children deserve a Mom and a Dad. Our man, Sean Reyes was paying
attention to the talks given during conference weekend.
@LovelyDeseret 10:50 p.m. April 9, 2014I am so glad Utah is
preventing these adoptions. Good, strong, healthy families are of the most
importance to Utah.--------------------These children
already have "good, strong, healthy families" but the state officials
are denying both parents in those families legal recognition. Sad for the
Hang in there Leary family. Many "know not what they do," but soon laws
will be in place so that your family is protected and supported just as theirs
I'm so glad I live in a state that looks out for and demonstrates that they
care about the best interests of children. Thank you Sean Reyes, you have my
vote and many other Utahans who care about real families. You can count on my
financial and political support on your upcoming campaign. The gay agenda will
What happens to the kids?It's not like the Gay folks are stealing
children for whom dozens of other loving homes of married opposite sex couples
were waiting. Gay people often adopt the "hard to place" kids.Everything Reyes does seems to be to please the lds church and its most
conservative members.No justice for the kids who must wait?No justice for the parents longing to have them?
I am so glad Utah is preventing these adoptions. Good, strong, healthy families
are of the most importance to Utah.