In all these clashes of opinion, it is easy for everyone to lace their comments
with a touch of hypocrisy. Beware of counterfeit intelligence, which exhibits
1) Birth Control is widely available and cheap2) You can buy it
yourself easily without help3) If you expect someone else to buy it
- then you cannot credibly complain when they insert their morality into the
decision - you inserted them4) It doesn't matter if you deem
their morality to be hypocritical, irrational or completely bogus; They have a
right to their morality and you are pushing something you can cheaply and easily
do yourself onto them5) If you are advocating government power to
push onto someone else a decision you can cheaply and easily perform yourself -
then you are the perpetrator, not the victim6) If you believe unions
have freedom of speech (because they generally agree with you) but corporations
do not (because they generally do not agree with you), then you are a
hypocrite7) If you agree with the courts that corporations can have
a race because minority owned businesses can sue when they are racially
discriminated against, but you do not believe that corporations can have a
religion - then you are a hypocrite.Most of these posts are far more
hypocritical than Hobby Lobby
Hypocrisy? Yes. Many environmentalists, animal rights advocates, or Vegans and
Vegetarians, can find investments which do not violate their beliefs.
Information is easily available and not difficult to access if one is really
devoted to their morality. Some investments even advertise their having a
particular moral, social and economic ideal. I would also say they are guilty of
heresy. Here is a case where money trumps their moral principles. Ignorance
(saying most people do not know what they are invested in) is no excuse.
@Casey SeeBut that isn't what those drugs actually do. The morning
after pill is a large dose of birth control. All it does is stop an egg from
dropping if it hasn't already, if you take the morning after pill, and you
already have a fertilized egg inside of you, you still are pregnant. And
IUD's do the same thing, just for a couple of years instead of a one time
deal like the morning after pill. They in no way are abortions.
The big difference here is that ObamaCare requires all health plans offered by a
company to provide contraceptives. If they don't then they don't
qualify. HL founders and still managing the company oppose the use of two types
of contraceptives because of how they work. One, is the morning after pill,
because it specifically prevents a fertilized egg from being able to grow and
IUDs that some believe does the same thing i.e. aborts the fertilized egg.These are both mandated birth control options by ObamaCare. This is what HL is fighting being forced to provide these birth control
options in all of their health plans.
I had to buy some picture frames today. Because Hobby Lobby is trying to take
choice away from their employees, I drove a mile past Hobby Lobby and went to
WowIs anybody buying this line? Hobby Lobby is
providing "access" in both cases. Hobby Lobby isn't
required to administer the health plans which provide coverage to emergency
contraceptives nor are they required to pay for the contraceptive coverage.
Their only objection can be they are providing access for their employees to get
coverage with emergency contraception. Isn't the 401k the same
situation? They are providing access for their employees to invest in companies
making emergency contraceptives. The emperor has no clothes. We now see Hobby Lobby for who they truly are.
@ IsaacsTMI think you hit the nail on the head. I think what the HL
owners are actually fighting is a law they don't like. It just so happens
that religion is the only weapon with which to do this. And they take
themselves and the "purity" thing pretty seriously so it nicely serves
all of their purposes.I would be much more interested to hear a
defense of their business with China than what investments a convoluted 401K
portfolio might include. I think a much brighter line can be drawn between
their money and abortions of Chinese fetuses than can be drawn between insurance
coverage, a particular kind of contraceptive, and its effect on a fertilized
egg.Bottom line: I don't doubt that they are devout Christians.
I doubt that this is about protecting their right to practice this devotion. I
think it's about using their religion to fight a battle in which religion
is the only argument that will be entertained. Whether or not this is
hypocritical - or cynical - depends on whether they're consciously aware of
what they're doing.
@IsaacsTM 2 years ago they covered 2 of the drugs they currently object to in
their plan. If anything this compounds their hypocrisy.
@GiuseppeG they provide the the menu of choices for their employees to choose
from? As employees of the company the greens also most likely invest in the
funds themselves? They are also objecting to IUDs (which isn't a morning
after pill) do I need to go on?
So, let's see if I have this correct. Hobby Lobby provides financial
remuneration to their employees without directing how their employees spend it.
Hobby Lobby also does not want to be forced to pay for free abortifacient
contraception (assuming that means morning after pill). I haven't heard of
an effort by Hobby Lobby to attempt to restrict its employees from spending the
$15 - $60 to purchase their own morning after pill or the $15/month or so for
regular contraception, although ODannyBoy seems to think they have. So someone please explain to me again how letting the employees invest their
money in whatever they want and letting them choose to spend their money on what
they want is hypocritical?
“The menu of choices is provided not by the employer but by the
administrator of the plan, offering a wide range of mutual funds — which
are most commonly indexes invested in the breadth of the market.”Health insurance provides a menu of service choices (checkups, birth control,
surgery, etc) that it can be used on, provided not by the employer but by the
administrator of the health insurance plan. It's up to the employee to
effectively designate where those insurance dollars end up going.
I've afraid the blog quoted in the article leaves out important
information. Hobby Lobby did have a choice of which funds to offer. They could
have chosen an investment firm that offers “faith-based investing”
that avoids these type of companies, but they didn’t. Does
that make Hobby Lobby "hypocrites" or just careless? It is ironic that
in an area where they do have control, they didn't exercise it.Nonetheless this is an important case. It will be interesting to see how the
Supreme Court writes their opinion so they don't cause more problems than
they are trying to solve.
People can also work for a company that aligns more with their ideals rather
than forcing the business to change theirs? respect is a two way street. Its
amazing to me how everyone of the above comments is about how they should be
catered to but show little interest in showing it. I am against alcohol because
of my beliefs but I still served it as a manager for a restraunt BUT I also
respected the rights of some of my employees who didn't wish to and did it
for them. I deal with hypocrites of faith and atheists persuassions all the time
I have to do business with people who are less than moral by my standards. As
much as I wouldn't force you to stop supporting the establishments and
causes you adhere to I'm not going to force Hobby Lobby to abandon theirs.
If you don't like it you don't have to associate with them. We are a
world of hypocrites such as planned parenthood and secularists who chime about
human rights(oh the irony)I won't force them to change their position just
respect Hobby lobby to do the same.
@mcdugall. "Inorganic beings" hold many beliefs. How much $$$ is given
to political parties each year? How is religion a concept beholden to people but
concepts such as: gun rights, gay rights, environment rights, etc. aren't?
I don't remember anyone challenging Hobby Lobby as hypocritical a few years
ago before Obamacare kicked in. Do any of you think they were back then? Where
were you then?? They provided health care insurance to their employees and were
humming a long just fine - you probably never even knew of them. Obamacare
kicks in and forces them to provide insurance coverage for certain things and
they said no we like our current plans. NOW all of a sudden they are anti
women(ala Barbara Boxer), religious hypocrites and horrible people. Do you not
realize that they are running their business the exact same way they were a few
years ago? What changed? Them? No, big government has stepped in and now all
of you express your two minutes of hate against them. It's almost like
entrapment. You are being stirred up in your hatred.
So, employees should be free to make whatever investment they want to in their
401K because it's their money they're spending, not Hobby
Lobby's, but when it comes to their health plan, then it's actually
Hobby Lobby's money?That's TOTALLY different!
So using a third party company to administer your 401K that invests in companies
that make birth control is different than paying a third party to administer you
health insurance plan, that covers birth control? That doesn't make sense
The thing with Hobby Lobby is simple: Who has a right of conscience--the
government or the people? Hobby Lobby is told that they MUST provide
contraception, or they are oppressing women. 1st, what female would not get
contraception if they wanted it? It's not like you can't get a pack
of condoms in practically every store. Are women incapable of actually buying
their own contraception? Pregnancy tests are not covered either, or aspirin or
tylenol. Second, what parts of the 1st amendment are negotiable?
Corporations have the right to speech in America. But not the rest of the 1st
Amendment? Third, the government is actively punishing Christians: look
at the Little Sisters of the Poor. Obama is trying to tell a bunch of Catholic
Nuns that they should pay for someone else's immoral behavior. Why should
any of us be forced to pay for someone else's sexual wantonness? If they
want to risk having sex, they should pay for it themselves. Not me, not Hobby
Lobby, not the Little Sisters of the Poor.
I read the column and just because Ben Domenech says Hobby Lobby is hypocritical
doesn't make it so. Of course they are hypocritical! Claiming that
investing in mutual funds is just a "menu choice" that employees make
based on a list provided by their (financial) plan and not the employer somehow
makes buying funds that manufacture contraceptives different from employees
making a choice from a list provided by a medical plan is simply wrong.The only difference here is that Hobby Lobby has (in their minds) more say in
a limited list of medical options than they do in a very long and complicated
list of financial options. IF Hobby Lobby could force a Christian Index Fund on
their employees they would.Hobby Lobby buy an extensive assortment
of product from China, where the number of children is limited by law and
abortion is a regular state funded practice. They seem to have no moral problem
with supporting a nation that is as un-Christian as they get. As long as it
contributes to the bottom line.
Seriously? I would bet the vast majority of people who have a 401K, or even buy
mutual funds, have no idea where they're invested. I do know people who
are interested in environmental issues, or against tobacco and alcohol, or
opposed to the fur trade, etc. who take the time to look into the details of
their portfolios. If the owners of HL are so opposed to contraception, it was
their responsibility to see what the company's 401K was involved with. The
CEO had no idea what the clerk on Aisle 2 was choosing as a 401K investment?
Oh, come on!
I'm still wondering how someone can actually argue that an inorganic being
can actually hold religious beliefs. Religion is a concept beholden to people
not corporations, hence protect the religious rights of people but not
PLease remind me to Boycott The Hobby Lobby on priciple. But, then again they
may refuse to serve me because I am a heretical, Temple going Mormon.
Then perhaps the employees should be able to make their own birth control
choices as well - as part of the company plan. I'm going with hypocritical.