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Published: Tuesday, April 1 2014 9:29 a.m. MDT

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2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Good point.

Lew Scannon
Provo, UT

But Jenica, corporations are people too. I have it on good authority. So let's just baptize Hobby Lobby and get it over with.

slcdenizen
t-ville, UT

So clever, such great wit, until other non-christian religions begin demanding the right to excersize their beliefs and the same crowd this contributor belongs to will switch sides and want the separation of church and state enforced.

Hutterite
American Fork, UT

Denizen is correct; if you concede to one you concede to all, including a whole bunch you want nothing to do with. The only workable solution is separation.

Open Minded Mormon
Everett, 00

When Hobby Lobby files a 501.c [not for profit],
they can preach religion all they want to.

Businesses are NOT Religions.
and visa versa....

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

slcdenizen,
RE: "until other non-christian religions begin demanding the right to excersize their beliefs"...

Non-christian business owners already demand the right to exercise their beliefs, and not be forced by government to violate their religious beliefs.

Here's one example.... a Muslim restaurant owner refuses to serve pork in their restaurant. Non-Christian business owners want to live their faith too. And I don't hear anybody complaining. So your assumption is false (that they would flip if a business owner of another faith wanted to run his business AND not violate his faith).

===

The situations are not identical. But there ARE people of other faiths who expect to be able to own a business and still observe their faith. And no religious zealot right-wingers complain. So your pre-judgement of them was wrong.

===

I agree that just providing insurance that provides things that violate your religious beliefs is not YOU violating your religious beliefs (so I don't side with HobyLoby). But nobody flips when a business owner of another faith demands the right to exercises their beliefs.

And I would not support a government mandate that all business owners must serve pork.

Open Minded Mormon
Everett, 00

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Let's make a deal....

I'll support Hobby Lobby's right to not cover birth control,
if Hobby Lobby agrees to provide for the life of any child born without it.

Deal?

Res Novae
Ashburn, VA

The original purpose of corporate "personhood" is to allow corporations to enter into/enforce contract rights. The expansion of that legal fiction into the full legal rights held by individuals is unsound and inadvisable, both legally and ethically. Citizens United has already set us on a dangerous path without injecting religious rights into the mix.

If a corporation has religious rights, does it have suffrage rights? Second Amendment rights? Can it be imprisoned? Executed? Where do you start drawing lines?

Darrel
Eagle Mountain, UT

@2bits

Here's one example.... a Muslim restaurant owner refuses to serve pork in their restaurant. Non-Christian business owners want to live their faith too. And I don't hear anybody complaining. So your assumption is false (that they would flip if a business owner of another faith wanted to run his business AND not violate his faith).

==================

This argument is a strawman. First of all, there are no laws requiring every restaurant to serve pork (and would you want pork from a restaurant that didn't want to serve pork). And people are generally free to decide which restaurant they wish any way.

When it comes to work, the expectation changes. Can an employee working for Hot Dog on a Stick tell the manager they cannot serve pork and expect to be employed there for long? Or and LDS member refuse to sell alcohol and the check out register and Walmart?

On the flip side; and especially with unemployment where it is at; job hunters often don't have the luxury to find the perfect employer; they have an option of take this job and eat, or good luck finding your own.

J in AZ
San Tan Valley, AZ

Open Minded Mormon- You do realize that the hobby Lobby company health plan already covers 16 different contraceptive drugs, don't you?

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

OMM,
Nice shifting of responsibility... but it wasn't HobyLoby who made the decision to engage in the type of activity that results in the need for abortions or contraceptives. So I don't think your solution is fair (to shift the responsibility for your decision to them).

Anti-Hobyloby people keep insisting hobyloby is preventing them from getting contraceptives. I keep pointing out that's not true.

HobyLoby is not standing between you and your contraceptives... they just won't pay for it. There's a difference.

Every person still has the right to walk into their drug store and buy their own contraceptives (they are actually very cheep and readily available).

Just because they won't PAY for your contraceptives... doesn't mean they are PREVENTING you from getting them!

HobyLoby is actually doing nothing to PREVENT you from getting contraception. They just don't want to be forced to provide it (or pay a company to provide it).

===

FACT is... Every person in the United States can get contraceptives.. Whether they work for HobyLoby or not. Just because someone else won't pay for them... doesn't mean you can't GET them!

ugottabkidn
Sandy, UT

When Hobby Lobby stops profiting from business from China and stock in contraceptive manufacturers then and only maybe then you may convince me it's about religion, otherwise it's just another step towards corporate influence and control of our society. Lobby is seeking the tax benefits without the compliance.

Ranch
Here, UT

Jenica:

You start with a false premise: "and the question of whether people in corporations have religious rights, ..."

Of course people IN corporations have religious rights. Your problem is that Corporations are not people nor do they have religious beliefs.

J in AZ
San Tan Valley, AZ

Open Minded Mormon wrote "When Hobby Lobby files a 501.c [not for profit], they can preach religion all they want to."

I really don't think you want to go there. What you are suggesting is that where a business is owned by an individual or a single family, those owners sacrifice part of their 1st amendment rights. Do you really want to say that they cannot express their world view during business hours?

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

@2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

FACT is... Every person in the United States can get contraceptives.. Whether they work for HobyLoby or not. Just because someone else won't pay for them... doesn't mean you can't GET them!

=======

OK, that's fine by me --
Let's start by giving them all a Minimum wage increase.

And when has a Muslim [or, Jewish for that matter] Resturant owners EVER been forced to serve pork?

I don't smoke, I don't drink - but I have worked for company who did serve them.

Did that violate MY relgious convictions?

Strawman arguement.

Ranch
Here, UT

@2 bits;

The problem with your argument is that you allow Hobby Lobby (2 b's in each word, btw) to tell the employee what the employee's insurance premium will cover. That money IS the employee's.

Christopher B
Ogden, UT

airnaut, open minded Mormon, lds liberal etc...

Lets make a deal.

I'll support Hobby Lobby being forced to provide birth control when you can prove the individuals who are trying to prevent pregnancy had no choice but to engage in such acts that would cause the birth of a child.

Someone wants to have sex?

Fine - you pay for the consequences.

I never asked anyone to have sex - don't ask me to pay for the consequences, or the prevention of a baby because of it.

Hobby Lobby never asked anyone to have sex, so they shouldn't pay for it.

Redshirt1701
Deep Space 9, Ut

I hate to break it to everybody here, but this isn't about Hobby Lobby the business. This is about David Green not wanting to be forced to violate his religious beliefs by purchasing chemicals that are designed to end the life of a fetus.

Imagine you were told by the government that you had to buy a statue of Zeus and keep it in your house. The statue is manufactured by privates companies that manufacture ceramic products for your home. Would you complain about having to do that, or would you just roll over and do as the government says?

anotherview
SLO, CA

It is reported that, ironically, Hobby Lobby investments include makers of emergency contraceptives. Oops!

Strip away all the rhetoric, the fact remains, contraceptives reduce the abortion rate.

There is no scientific evidence emergency contraceptives prevent implantation of a fertilized egg. The Beckett Fund falsely, flatly misrepresents how emergency contraceptives work. They are designed to prevent ovulation and fertilization, (as are contraceptives in general).

Hobby Lobby has the option to not offer health insurance at all and to simply pay the "tax/fee/penalty."

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Darrel 10:09,

RE "there are no laws requiring every restaurant to serve pork"...

That's the whole point of this controversy. There SHOULD BE no laws requiring Muslim restaurant owners serve pork. And there SHOULD BE no laws requiring a Christian store owner to violate his covenants. That's the point!

I know there are no laws requiring a Muslim to serve pork, but the point is... neither should be required by the Government to violate their covenants.

I didn't say there was a law to server pork. Just that there should NOT be a law to Christian store owners MUST do something they feel violates their covenants with their God.

===

2nd... the reason for the example was... the statement that we would object if other religious business owners wanted to observe THEIR covenants... the example shows that they do... and we don't care.

===

Last comment.. sorry I wasted one.

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