Nav Vet: Obviously we're talking to different fans. Rivals has been
the preference and the standard in years past, just like I said. But many fans I
talk to are losing faith in it because of how they've changed some of their
metrics. Again, I didn't make it up, that's what they've said,
not just me. Like I said doesn't matter in the end because of what lets
roll said,and I agree, neither Utah or BYU are winning recruiting battles with
the top 40 programs in the country. Until either one does they will continue to
struggle in their respective circumstances.
All the ink spilled over recruiting...the one factoid that resonates is that
NEITHER the Y or the U has been in the top 40 in recruiting.All the
talk at both schools about the programs getting to the next level seems a bit of
a stretch when you look at the recruiting classes, and not just over the last
year or two.Both schools, I believe, will continue to struggle with
their respective challenges. The U will struggle to be relevant in the PAC-12
where they are at or near the bottom in recruiting and trending downward in
recruiting--especially now that USC is off probation and Mora has brought
stability to UCLA. The Y will continue to struggle to put together
schedules that will keep the fan base enthused and the players motivated over
the entire season.
Cougsndawgs:I didn't see any search engine requirements for
your assertion that Rivals isn't the best "recruiting services"
site, yet you insist that I show you the SECtalk? That seems hypocritical of
you.Just put this quote in your search engine (including punctuation
and spelling errors) and click the first SECtalk link:"Over the
years all of my fellow football players,fans,and gurus alike have had this
debate with someone on the job,or friends, fans of the opposing shool fanatics.
Who has the most accurate player rankings? Is it Rivals, Scout , or ESPN ? I
know there is no gauranteed way to determine this,but if you look at the years
past you can look at the different rankings and go back and according to how
they acheived you can come up with a ranking for the actual recruiting
service."And you DID make up the SEC thing. I know a lot of
sports fans too (BigTen, ACC, SEC, Big12, Pac-12)......and they
Navy Vet:Yes I wish DN allowed URLs because there are multiple articles
and sites that have been very critical of Rivals....but like you said, you have
all the tools to look it up. I would also be interested in the SECtalk
you're addressing because I haven't seen it. I didn't make up the
SEC thing...I talk to a lot of SEC fans (I travel to GA & LA every month).
Rivals used to be the standard but everything I hear now is dislike with how
they increase stars on what programs are going after a kid, how over or under
hype a player based on scouting reports rather than actual production on the
field, etc. It's hearsay so take it or leave it, doesn't matter. I
won't use them so I guess it's no deal eh?As for avg stars
vs ranking, a team might not need 25 recruits so rankings based on number of
recruits isn't really a fair analysis is it? Would it be fair if BYU
averaged 2.5 stars but recruited 29 players so they were ranked higher than Utah
who only recruited/needed 20 players but averaged 2.8 stars?
Cougsndawgs:"I will make a wager with you and Chris that BYUs
avg stars will be better again this year than Utah's (not rival ranking).
No posts for a month if I'm wrong, same for you two if I'm right.
Deal?"If BOTH of us agree, and you lose, you're off for 2
months. If Chris does NOT agree, you're only off for one. Also, we are not wagering "average stars". We're wagering
"Rivals ranking". That makes more sense. Think about it. If Utah
signs only one athlete, and it's a 5-star kid, Utah's "average
stars" would be 5.0. If the Y signed 20 kids -- all of whom were all 4-star
athletes -- their "average stars" would be 4.0. So who had the better
recruiting class? The U -- who would have "averaged" 5-stars? Or the
Y's lower star average of 4.0?
Cougsndawgs:"rivals has become a joke when evaluating recruiting
talent and rankings."Rivals had been rated as the most accurate
"recruiting" rater for college football, so you'll have to agree to
use Rivals. 24/7 and ESPN are too new to the "recruiting" business to
have established themselves over Rivals. Thomas Goldkamp Media did an indepth
analysis about 4-yrs ago and found that Rivals graded higher than Scout, and
that Scout graded higher than ESPN (re: "Which recruiting service is
best?"). The DNews does not permit URLs, but you have all the Google search
engine requirements in this text."SEC fans (I'm one of
them) have already written rivals off because they don't do their job very
well in terms of how good players end up being."Nope. You made
that up. SECtalk had a discussion board about this a while back, and the
consensus over there is Rivals is the preferred source.
Just a quick FYI, ESPN has never had Utah or BYU in the top 40 for the years
you're referencing. Forgive me if I, and many other CFB fans, trust them
and the experts on their payroll more than rivals. For the deal I mentioned
above we will be using ESPN, not the hacks at rivals, if that's ok with you
guys. You might as well go with SB Nation or Bleacher Report for your recruiting
rankings if you trust rivals. And hey, ESPN was much kinder in their ranking for
U this year (64th) than rivals (BYU was only 62nd). Rankings go by number of
recruits as well as stars so it isn't the best measure...we will use avg
stars as we always do on these boards. Let me know if it's a deal.
Naval Vet:We were determining average stars to measure recruiting success,
not rivals ranking (which you will notice is not in line with espn
rankings...rivals has become a joke when evaluating recruiting talent and
rankings. SEC fans (I'm one of them) have already written rivals off
because they don't do their job very well in terms of how good players end
up being. Anyway, doesn't matter...avg stars BYU was still above Utah this
year (at least Chris understood that, even if it was a small fraction above). I
gave a reason for stating why that would continue because of Utah's
futility. Do you have any reason to believe Utah will recruit better as long as
they continue to be a bottom dweller in the PAC? Do you have reason to believe
Utah's record or performance will magically be better this year? I will
make a wager with you and Chris that BYUs avg stars will be better again this
year than Utah's (not rival ranking). No posts for a month if I'm
wrong, same for you two if I'm right. Deal?
Cougsndawgs:"The trend is BYUs recruiting is getting better
while Utah's isn't..."No, that is not the trend. At
least not according to Rivals anyway. Per these last 7 recruiting years,
Utah's Rivals-ranked recruiting classes were 60th (2008), 44th (2009), 32nd
(2010), 37th (2011), 28th (2012), 44th (2013), and 67th (2014). That averages
to about 44.6. 44.6 is over 22 spots away from 67. With our last recruiting
class ranking 67th, you can see that that was a clear "aberration"; not
a "trend". On the other hand, look at the cougars trend
respectively from 2008-14, there DOES appear to be a clear "trend":
83rd, 50th, 40th, 63rd, 62nd, 71st, and 71st. That averages to about 62.9. And
62.9 is only about 8 spots off, and the trajectory you've been going --
which would be "down" -- has been consistent. Ergo, your recruiting is
not only worse than Utah's, it's also NOT improving.
Proud Ute:What about my post makes no sense to you? BYUs "one good
year" that you're referencing was THIS year...it's not like they
out recruited you only one year out of five and that year was a couple years
ago. It was this year...2014. I already spelled out why I think the trend will
continue do you want me to do it again? Utah isn't winning, they
aren't going to bowl games...it's not a coincidence that THIS year was
Utah's worst recruiting year since joining the PAC...they aren't
competing and recruits are realizing that.I think you already know
that my suggestion for going back to the MWC was just a jab and not a genuine
suggestion, right? BYU would get more TV exposure and better SOS in the MWC?
Let's see, last year BYUs SOS was the second highest in state history and
higher than any Utah SOS until last year...in the MWC it was far from that, so
you fail there. More TV exposure...um, no. BYU was in the top 7 schools for
nationally televised games last year...unheard of in the MWC, fail again.
When are we going to decide if athletics are going to stay at the Y? If we are
winding them down why the slow painful death, just pull the plug and lets move
on. Bronco has go to go to get the program to the next level. If the Y is
serious it's time to bring in coach W when the U has to let him go due to
booster disregard for the consistent caliber of play in the PAC - at least he
will have a product on the field worth watching.
Cougsndawgs, Sorry my friend, your post makes no sense. BYU has one good
year in four so now that is a trend rather than an aberration? I think we would
all love to hear why you think it will continue. Your suggestion for
the U to take the pay cut and run back to the MWC is laughable at best but might
be a good idea for your beloved Cougars to look into. Your strength of schedule
and your TV exposure would both certainly improve.
Naval Vet:Well my post to CB didn't make it I guess. I was referring
to this year...that's why I said "this year". The trend is BYUs
recruiting is getting better while Utah's isn't, and actually declined
because recruits don't want to be sub .500 and bowless every year. I expect
that trend to continue after this year where there's no reason to believe
Utah will perform better than last year. Don't change what I said and then
try and refute it. This year (which is what I referred to) Utah DID NOT recruit
better than BYU. That trend will continue next year as well IMO, but we will
see.In the meantime you and Chris should stop the Strawman
arguments. I never said BYU had recruited better the last few years, I only said
this year, pointing to a trend that I believe will continue. After it does
continue, "2-star" Utah will continue to flounder in a league they
don't belong in...they should take the paycut and go back to the MWC.
Cougsndawgs:"BYU and Utah had about the same level of success in
terms of recruiting this year. If you recall BYU brought in more 4 stars than
Utah did...The 2 star thing is old, and only makes you look bad when U
didn't recruit any better. So now the question is whether Kyle will be able
to win and keep his job with '2-star' Utah."According
to Rivals, Utah had out-recruited the Y every year since 2008. And the average
ranking of those 7 recruiting classes was 44.6 for the Utes, and 62.9 for the
cougs. That's an 18-spot advantage for your big brother on the Hill, so
our recruiting isn't as close as you're trying to make it out to be.
During those 7 yrs, the Y signed 10 more recruits than the U, but the U still
signed 6.3% more athletes graded at 4-stars or above, 36% more athletes graded
at 3-stars, and 54.3% fewer athletes graded at 2-stars. Neither the U nor the Y
will likely start any 2-star kids from our 2014 classes. Bottom line: Utah DID
Cougsndawgs,Of the last 5 years, Utah won 4 of the recruiting
classes over byu, according to Scout, Rivals, ESPN, whichever you want to use.
In fact, of the four classes prior to the most recent, every single was was
better than any single year for byu of the previous 4. So for 4 years in a row,
Bronco never had a recruiting class as good as Whit's worst recruiting
class. This past year byu "won" by .07 stars or something like that.
Conversely, Utah "won" by .7 stars just the year before when byu
averaged 2.3 and Utah averaged 3.0 You're showing you
don't know what you're talking about if you think byu is doing as well
in recruiting as Utah. Now let me anticipate the "then why has
Utah struggled" question for you...Answer: We don't play
byu 12 times a year.
NavalVet:Haha! I have to admit that rhyming comment made me laugh. I
don't often agree with you, but thanks for the humor.Now to
what I don't agree with you about. BYU and Utah had about the same level of
success in terms of recruiting this year. If you recall BYU brought in more 4
stars than Utah did, and more speed and talent where they needed it. The 2 star
thing is old, and only makes you look bad when U didn't recruit any better.
So now the question is whether Kyle will be able to win and keep his job with
"2-star" Utah.I agree with other posters that Bronco needs
to show urgency and passion in how often and to what level his team practices.
No excuse for wasting valuable practice time before a rivalry game or bowl game.
Bronco has always been a great DC going back to his New Mexico days, but I think
the stresses of being a HC in terms of media relations and team dynamics are not
in his wheelhouse. I hope things can be different this year but I'm not
holding my breath.
Advice to Bronco: When you have the opportunity to practice, use it! To do
otherwise is to demonstrate a lack of will. Here is an old slogan,
"Practice makes perfect."
"Will over Skill"Man, I really hate that slogan....Please, Bronco, enough with the stupid sayings, use all your allotted
practices, lose the sophomoric 3-point start from the sideline, concentrate on
the "Skill" and perhaps you'll garner a little more success and a
little more respect.
It has been time for quite awhile now to make a change in the BYU football
program. Until BYU realizes this and takes action, we will continue to hear more
slogans and schedule time off before big games. The story does not change at a
once great football program.
"Will over skill"?Hmmm. Well I suppose when the overall
makeup of your team is as "2-star" loaded as the cougars, one can
surmise that the "skill" part just wasn't there to begin with. So
perhaps the cougar coaches might be on to something there by stressing the
"will" part. Plus it rhymes. That helps cougars stay
focused. Good call Bronco.
Gosh, I certainly hope Bronco feels a sense of urgency. As several have
mentioned, he failed to feel that particular "sense" before the Utah
game and before the bowl game. If he could feel the same sense of urgency as
many of us fans feel the Cougars would have a better roar. I, too, think Bronco
is a great man but I not so sure about being a great football coach.
2013 Ute: You may remember that game differently due to your
consuption of the Pac-12 kool-aid. BYU outplayed Washington for most of that
game. Total offense BYU 473 to 319 for UW. I'm not taking anything away
from UW, they got stops, had a couple long kickoff returns and the Cougs
couldn't convert in the red zone (and no I'm not going to say
"blue zone", that's ridiculous) when they needed to. But to make
it sound like a walkover might just show your ignorant bias.
practice more between the last game and the bowl game, derive a new, more
Slogans don't win games, (but then neither do Utes in PAC-12 play and since
Utah isn't playing BYU this year, it doesn't matter what happened in
the past). Here's hoping BYU comes out the gates and put "wins"
where their mouth has been. I would rather BYU talk down in public and then come
@Ernest, when your right, your right, eloquently put. Even better than Coach
Mendenhall could have said it.
Gee, Bronco, where was that "sense of urgency" last December when you
decided to take an early vacation and blow off half of your allowed number of
bowl practices? Or how about in September when you decided to blow off a couple
of practices before playing Utah?
2013 Ute"It was nice to see Washington make BYU look like
BYU."BYU is 4-5 versus Washington, Bronco is 2-1.The
bottom dwelling pacy Utes are 0-8 versus Washington, Kyle is 0-2.It's laughable how out of touch with reality the kids living under the
crimson bubble are.
It was nice to watch Washington make byu look bad again while we sat home again
and watched it on tv again. It is just what we expect during bowl season by
being in a pac 10 where we don't get to go to bowl games anymore. but the
popcorn is good anyways and its cold outside then anyways so its fun watching
byu lose.Go Utes upward to PAC 10 prestegous!
Sense of urgency? Where was that sense of urgency when you blew off practices
prior to the bowl game. To waste those bowl practices was absurd.
Washington had an unfair advantage of using all their allotted practices and no
It was nice to see Washington make byu look like byu. It was just what we would
have expected from a pac 12 vs. indy/wac game
I wish I could be convinced of this so-called sense of urgency. Bronco might be
more confortable in another calling. I'm not convinced he has the killer
instinct that can be conveyed to the team that will be translated to the field.
He is a nice guy, very principled, and the team is filled will nice guys. I
suspect we will be left with a program that executes fairly well, but lacks the
drive to be at the top. One other thing. There are no intermediate goals, such
as a conference championship, to play for. I think this makes a difference.
Gee thanks Brandon. One more cool aspect of Coach Mendenhall that his critics
will now deride.From the comfort of their couches. During bowl season.