Comments about ‘In our opinion: Digital Fourth Amendment’

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Published: Thursday, March 27 2014 12:04 p.m. MDT

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Open Minded Mormon
Everett, 00

Oh for crying out loud!

Where was the Deseret News during the 8 years I was called a "traitor" and all sorts of other vile names by the Right-wing when Bush got his "Patriot Act"?

Let me guess ---

Bush good,
Obama bad.

Tell you what,
You guys on the right let that genie out of the bottle in the 1st place,
YOU get it back in the bottle.

But, to show my integrity,
I'll help you.

Ultra Bob
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Should private business people be able to do things supposedly prohibited to our government by the Constitution? And if private business does those things, should the government be able to have access to their business records and other data. Can private business operate in secrete from our government?

The horse has already been stolen, it's not going to do any good to lock the Sheriff in the barn. Private business has been collecting data from our personal lives longer than we have had digital capability. We are spied upon when we seek medical help, want to buy things, look at a web sight, photographed on the streets, in parking lots, in stores, and sometimes in the privacy of our own homes. In most cases we have gladly given up some freedom of privacy for safety and convenience.

If we give up the freedom of privacy to private business, why should we not be willing to give up the same freedom to our only organized friend in the world, our federal government. It is probably only criminals who fear the government and wish to operate in the dark.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

OMM,
No... if you had really been paying attention back then (instead of just looking for stuff that fits your stereotypes you have for the other side)... you would have noticed that the more Conservative you are... the more you opposed the Patriot Act (yes, even under Bush).

Tea Party people were against much of the Patriot Act and this Government intrusion even back then. But you probably didn't notice that... because it doesn't fit your stereotype or your narrative (D-Good... R-Bad)...

I can show you many articles where true Conservatives opposed the Patriot Act if you can't remember.

Remember... not all Republicans are "Conservatives". Republicans in Washington are mostly not "Conservatives".

==

From the article...
"Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont, has teamed up with Sen. Mike Lee, R-Utah, to introduce a necessary update to the Electronic Communications Privacy Act"...

A D and a radical-R working together on this... how weird!

And yet yesterday the left praised changing our electoral system, mainly so you can get Mike Lee.. and evidently he's on your side on this one!

Maybe Mike Lee isn't all bad.

Maybe Tea Party people don't fit your mold?

slcdenizen
t-ville, UT

@2 bits

LOL. Tea Partiers resisted the Patriot Act? Before they organized in order to take our country back from the bl.. Democrats? I am truly witnessing history being rewritten. Hopefully that tall tale won't be considered "from the victors".

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Ultra Bob,
The Constitution is about Government... not business.

The Constitution is about what our GOVERNMENT CAN'T do to you. Even President Obama understands this, when he calls it "A document of negative liberties"... "Negative Liberties" means what the government is NOT allowed to do.

Most of those negative liberties don't apply to businesses (or individuals).

We have a lot of rights the Government doesn't have (intentionally).

The constitution limits the Government (not the people).

We can do things the government can't. Likewise businesses don't have the same restrictions our Federal Government has.

===

I know you hate businesses. Why... I don't understand. But it's just silly to pretend that the Constitution was written to limit them.

It was written to limit our Government.

===

And just because a business can do something... doesn't automatically mean we give the Government that same latitude. The Constitution limits government...

===

There are TONS of laws that apply to Businesses (and not to Government). Congress can do that. But laws/legislation from Congress... are different from the Constitution.

Laws passed by Congress (to rule us, or rule businesses) are not part of the Constitution.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

slcdenizen,
If you don't believe me... Google "Conservatives protest patriot act", etc...

This is from the LA Times. Google "Patriot Act runs into conservative opposition" to read full article...

Some quotes:

'Tea party' adherents in the House, like civil libertarians, chafe at parts of the anti-terrorism law that reach into people's privacy."

"Tea party adherents prefer a smaller federal government, creating common cause on this issue with civil libertarians who object to expanded surveillance powers for federal authorities"...

===

I agree they should have been even more vocal when Republicans proposed it under Bush, but everybody was afraid to oppose things that would stop future terrorist attacks then. They got more bold when Obama proposed the extensions and expansions to the Patriot Act surveillance provisions.

But Democrats flip/flopped on this too... against is right after 9/11 (because Bush wanted it)... but all for it years later under Obama

---

There are lots of other articles documenting Tea Party people gathering with libertarians to protest the government expansions including the Patriot Act. But you need to do some research on your own. I can't do it all for you.

Ultra Bob
Cottonwood Heights, UT

2 bits.

It would have been a great help to me if you has given an example or two of the rights that people can do but the government cannot. Things that business can do that conflict with the Constitution,

I have never thought of the Constitution as "A document of negative liberties", except maybe that part called the Bill of Rights, and then only the first ten amendments.

The Constitution starts out saying:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

To me, the rest of the Constitution until you get to the Bill of Rights section is just rules and explanation of how they would carry out the message of the Preamble.

I don't hate businesses. I do have problems of business operation who refuse to follow the civil laws of our government(s). For that matter I don't like people who refuse to abide the law.

Ultra Bob
Cottonwood Heights, UT

2 bits.

It would have been a great help to me if you has given an example or two of the rights that people can do but the government cannot. Things that business can do that conflict with the Constitution,

I have never thought of the Constitution as "A document of negative liberties", except maybe that part called the Bill of Rights, and then only the first ten amendments.

The Constitution starts out saying:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

To me, the rest of the Constitution until you get to the Bill of Rights section is just rules and explanation of how they would carry out the message of the Preamble.

I don't hate businesses. I do have problems of business operation who refuse to follow the civil laws of our government(s). For that matter I don't like people who refuse to abide the law.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Ultra Bob,
RE "Should private business people be able to do things supposedly prohibited to our government by the Constitution? "...

Yes.

You asked for examples...

-Due process (doesn't apply to companies).

-Warrants (not required for companies) dept collectors, etc

-Citizens can have private property, and private information. The government can't (exceptions for national security on some information)

-Citizen's arrest (no probable cause or warrant needed).

-A bounty hunter can walk into your house with no warrant, or pick you up on the street, detain you, and take you in. They can also use their weapon when a police officer can't.

There are things the government can do that businesses and individuals can't:
-Taxation
-Declare war
-coin money
-enter into Treaties

But pretending if the government can't do something... a business can't do it... just silly.

Government and businesses are not the same in the Constitution. Most of the Constitution applies to the Government.

===

Can you give us one section or amendment that applies to businesses?

There are 10 short sections, 27 short amendments. I couldn't find one that applied to businesses. Did you find one?

Ultra Bob
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Silly is as Silly does.

GaryO
Virginia Beach, VA

All means of personal communication should be protected.

UtahBlueDevil
Durham, NC

2 bits... lets be real hear.... conservatives does not equal tea-party. Yes, tea party types consider themselves conservative, but so do a whole lot of people who aren't tea-party members. The first utterance of the label "tea party" didn't exist before 2009.... you can draw up your own reasons for that.

But then to say that people who are concerned that entities like Google are reading your emails, then selling that information to advertisers, is some how anti capitalism is bizarre at best. Many of these cloud services, in particular the photo sites, you loose your own copyright to the material you post on those sites. Those companies have the right to use your material, with or without your permission - something many are not aware of.

Any new rules need to take both public and private sector implications into consideration. No entity, corporate or public, should have the right to read my emails, or scan my computer, without my permission. Going to one site does not give them the right to then track my every move and click from that point forward - which many do. Privacy should be respected by government and corporations alike.

UtahBlueDevil
Durham, NC

@2 Bits... what are you talking about...?

-Warrants (not required for companies) dept collectors, etc? Excuse me? Debt collectors can't take your property without a legal instrument to back them up...

-Due process (doesn't apply to companies). Umm... have you had to fire someone? To say there is no "due process" in companies, give me a break.

-A bounty hunter can walk into your house with no warrant.... Again, no they can't. And they can't just randomly use deadly force. Where are you getting this stuff from?

-Citizens can have private property, and private information. And again.... you ever heard of "closed door sessions" in government? The government - from local through federal - all have "private property"... and much of it has nothing to do with National Defense. From water treatment plants, to parking lots for DoT equipment.

Your examples just don't make the point you are trying to make.

Why don't you go try a citizens arrest - taking someone into custody - without probable cause. We'll see who ends up in court, and who doesn't.

I think you need to go brush up on the law a bit.

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