Until Utahns can actually separate Utah Democrats from national Democrats than
the Utah Democratic Party is basically dead except in maybe SLC and Moab. But as one party takes hold in Utah I do believe in time people will
"revolt" somewhat against the Republican leadership. People are
realizing they have too much power to insulate themselves and others with
generally conservative values might start to figure out that the Utah Republican
values on education are nearly paramount to child abuse.In regards
to the LDS church, yes you can be a Democrat, Libertarian and even Communist and
be good in church standing. Utah Republican Mormons are a minority in world
view among their own church members.However, Utah is its special
case and whether the church leadership doesn't promote one party over
another directly it has in many respects. Bottom line Benson said what he said
and he came the President of the LDS church. Hugh B. Brown and Marlin Jensen
did not reach this level of leadership in the church. Combine Benson ascending
to the Presidency at the same time of Reagan becoming POTUS, and the dye was
cast in Utah.
2 bits:I don't think Leavitt was appointed to the head of the
EPA because he believed in it like no other. He was appointed by a conservative
president who wanted to appoint another conservative to see the EPA's
influence lessened. I guess this can be debated whether this is a good thing or
not but that's about that on that. It is similar to the idea when Reagan
appointed James Watt Secretary of the Interior. Watt wasn't there because
he or Reagan wanted to expand the national parks or promote green energies. He
was there to help dismantle those programs and open up federal lands to oil
drilling and exploration. Again, the debate whether or not this is good can be
debated but Watt was far from some environmentalist wanting to protect our
natural beauty and resources as Leavitt was no proponent of EPA regulating
businesses and industry.
Lies vs. Truth"Utah Democrats believe in a comprehensive
approach that protects reproductive freedom while fostering personal
responsibility and education for thoughtful and moral decisions about sexuality,
childbearing, adoption, and parenting."========== Not ONE word about "promoting abortions". Lies, Distortions,
Half-truths.And WHO is the Father of Lies?
Marxist,if that happened to you, I am truly sorry. I have no sympathy for
people who abuse and assault others. The DN will not post what I think should
be their punishment.That being said, I think it extremely
disingenuous to imply that that is the main reason behind all or even most
abortions committed today. The vast majority are for convenience sake, or
gender selection, or “I don’t want to be stuck with a Downs Syndrome
child” mentality or other purely selfish reasons.For
situations as you describe, abortion should be a safe and legal alternative,
most Americans and Utahans support that position, reasonable restrictions are
supported by most people. But that is not what is pushed by the
dems, and we all know it. Unlimited and free access to abortion is their rally
cry, no restrictions – period! is their demand.
RE: Lost in DC "Regardless, does not matter who is selling what, I cannot
support dems when they so strongly support abortion, SSM, and other anti-family
positions. cannot do it. will not do it. will discourage it among all within my
sphere of influence." I am not a Democrat and I will not presume to speak
for them. Given your remarks on abortion I assume that you are not a woman who
has been subject to an abuser. If you had ever been, or if someone close to you
had ever been, you would understand why abortion must be safe and legal. I
don't like the practice, but it is an option which much be available to
women. I speak from understanding and experience.
Esquire,sorry, not a distortion. Why do you think the Hyde amendment has
been pushed so hard if not for the fact so many dems want abortion on demand.
Unlimited and free access to abortion - what is that if NOT abortion on demand?
Hopefully that is not your stand, and why you call it a distortion, but that is
what they demand.You say I have been deceived about dems. You mean
they do NOT back abortion and SSM? You mean they NOT see the government as the
first and best solution to every problem? You mean the other comments about
former dem chairmen being openly hostile to Mormons are lies? You mean
statements by other dems that for too long their own party was admittedly the
anti-Mormon party are untrue? Pleas explain how hatch was responsible for dem
positons and statements. not buying it.Regardless, does not matter
who is selling what, I cannot support dems when they so strongly support
abortion, SSM, and other anti-family positions. cannot do it. will not do it.
will discourage it among all within my sphere of influence.
From every statement I've heard from the pulpit... the church is totally
neutral on which party, but they want you to be involved (regardless of the
party).I can't speak for all the members, or the culture. But
polls and voting results speak pretty clearly on that. But the church
doesn't force that, or mandate that, and they shouldn't. It's
up to each individual to decide for themselves.===Remember... You don't have to be active in either party to vote in the
election. Just to vote on party business, (which makes total sense to me that
party members pick the platform, the candidates they will support as a party,
etc. Not Democrats or independents deciding what candidate the Republicans must
support with their funds and their organizing efforts, in the General
election).The General election is the most important vote where
every citizen get's a voice.It makes no sense for Democrats to
expect to be able to pick who the Republican party's candidates will be (or
Republicans expect to pick the Democrat's candidates for that mater).We ALL vote in the general election (not on every party issue).
@ lost in DC, laugh all you like, but it was a very deliberate effort by the
GOP, led by Orrin Hatch, to associate the GOP and the Church as a means to gain
political power. It was successful. By the way, Democrats don't call for
abortion on demand, that's a distortion. I if you want to look at the
facts, abortion has gone down under Democratic Administrations, in large part
because they are more interested at getting at the real root of the problem and
not trying to bad sexual activity, which never works in any society or church.
The reality is that your attitude is exactly what the GOP sought to infuse into
the LDS population, to deceive and mislead people about the Democrats, and they
have been successful, obviously.
GZE said, "What are you talking about? Franklin Roosevelt leaned further
left than just about anyone else who has ever held public office."What you said is exactly what I'm talking about. Too many Democrats
today - the ones elected to public office - are beholden to the same wealthy
class interests as their so-called opponents in the Republican Party.
That's why there is such an income disparity in our nation today.
That's why we are moving closer and closer to being a third world nation
where the extremely wealthy live decadent lives while the vast majority live in
abject poverty. In my opinion even the most dedicated capitalist doesn't
want that to happen, but it's happening.
Does the LDS church officially support a political party? No.But Utah
Mormon culture is basically convinced that if you vote for a Democrat
you'll lose your soul.In other news, not a single Democrat even
bothered to RUN for office this year in Utah County. I don't care how you
feel about welfare or gay marriage or immigration-- that's just plain
unhealthy. You can't have a thriving democracy if you aren't willing
to discuss more than one idea.
Utah voters don't want to hear the other side. They're culturally
trained to believe there is only one way to think about things. Many of
them blur believing in religion is the same as believing in politics. It
would be amazing if Utahns where aware there are two ways to look at issues.
I have never seen the Democratic party so virulently anti-family and anti-life
as it has become today!
@MountanmanUm, what makes you think that only describes the Democrats?
Like same sex marriage, republicans don't agree with it, but they love
freedom, so they allow it anyways. Abortion, I mean, just because only anti
abortion activists bomb or kill abortion doctors doesn't mean that the
conservative side is repressive. What about(going back to when the GOP was in
power) the fact that anyone who critizized a GWB decision wasn't a patriot,
and hated america. Yup, the GOP sure believes in the free exchange of ideas and
letting people be free to make their own choices. As long as it's the
choice they want you to make, and the idea that they want you to believe in.
fas·cism [ fá shìzzəm ]1."Dictatorial movement:
any movement, ideology, or attitude that favors dictatorial government,
centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and
extreme nationalism." Pretty much sums up the modern Democratic
agenda! That's why red states reject demos and blue states embrace demos.
ECR says, the Democratic Party in Utah and the national party have abandoned the
principles of Franklin Roosevelt and other who were trying to safe the country
by bolstering the lower and middle classes.What are you talking
about? Franklin Roosevelt leaned further left than just about anyone else who
has ever held public office. Most of today's Democrats are not as liberal
as FDR was. And Democrats are still trying to save the Country and
bolster the lower and middle classes.
@VST 12:50 p.m.Re: "that is exactly what the Republican Party
has been doing recently, hence, the reason why they haven’t been able with
win the Presidency and never will until they adopt a different political
approach"...I don't know if you realize this but... we had
a Republican President just 6 years ago (so it's not like they haven't
been able to win in a long time). And they could win in 2016.It's hardly a trend yet.It's when you think the other
party has no chance of ever winning again... that you get lazy or sloppy and
they win.===In case you think there's some trend
where Republicans have been out a long time, and probably won't ever win
again... That plays well in a partisan dominated mind, but real history is not
on your side.Check history... you will see 2 trends:-Unless
the President is turrble... we give them 2 terms.-We always switch parties
after he's had his 8 years.(The only exceptions to this rule since
1940s is when somebody takes over mid-term after a resignation or
assassination)So don't count Republicans out yet...
UT Brit - I'm not sure if I agree wit your assertion. I don't
remember any of their editorials saying "This is the position of the LDS
Church." Yes, they are owned by the church and they promote most
conservative positions on issues of the day but I don't think their doing
that is a contradiction of the Church Policy. They're just another
editorial board espousing their opinions. Kind of like the Wall Street Journal.
The rest of the paper is excellent and presents new as news. Th editorial page
is totally partisan. Maybe you could say the same for the NT TimesOpen Minded Mormon - I was alive and heard Ezra Taft Benson's statement
of 50 years ago. I also recall that about the same time Hugh B. Brown said,
"...a Mormon can be a Democrat or a Socialist and still be a good church
member." I didn't believe what President Benson said and I'm sure
there were others who didn't either, We certainly didn't take it as
church policy. It's not church doctrine and never has been.And
as for your ward member, he sounds a bit closed minded.
Open Minded Mormon,RE "If the EPA is for it, then I'm against
it!"... and judging people based on your political stereotypes, what other
people say/do, etc...No doubt you think because this guy said
that... it applies to all people of his "type" (Republicans, Utahns,
whatever).In reality all that means is... one guy thinks that. But
you pretend it validates your whole stereotype of people of his
"type".===Here's something that contradicts
your stereotype (Utahns hate the EPA, Republicans hate the EPA, Mormons hate the
EPA, or whatever)... Michael Leavitt was head of the EPA.
He's a Utahn. He's a Republican. He's a Mormon. See... your
stereotypes don't work!Stereotyping people never works (not
just your lame stereotypes). It's just a shortcut practice of generalizing
people and grouping them to fit nicely into your preconceived assumptions of
them... but they don't work in reality, because in reality, people
don't always fit your mold or your assumptions about them.
Don't much care if Democrats win or not. I'm a Democrat because of one
principle: We're all in this together. By contrast, the Republican
principle is: You're on your own. Good for the Republicans. I prefer my
Pragmatist,“A dem party opposed to women’s and workers’
rights, and unfettered activities of religion”. You oppose the 1st
amendment? You must have read a different article than what was
written – I see none of that there. Nor in GOP positions – just
boogeymen created by dems to keep the ill-informed voters in their camp. Esquire,In the 1970s the GOP usurped the church? HAHAHAHA. That is
when dems embraced abortion and thereby alienated most LDS. I laud Elder Jensen
and Pres Faust (RIP) for retaining their membership in a party that you
correctly say directs extreme bigotry and hatred in their direction. I applaud
their quixotic attempts to try to restore/maintain some morality in the dem
party.FT,The dems have the low information voters locked up,
hence BO’s re-electionKent,If you do not understand why
the GOP has Utah locked up, I guess you do not understand how anathema abortion
and SSM are to most Utahans. If someone is so wrong on something so basic, how
can we expect them to be right on something more complex? If they say 2+2=7, I
cannot their accept their algebraic conclusions.
ECRBurke, VAMany will scoff at my statement but the ONLY thing
taught by church leaders about political issues is as follows:The
Church does not:Endorse, promote or oppose political parties,
candidates or platforms.Attempt to direct its members as to which
candidate or party they should give their votes to. Attempt to direct or
dictate to a government leader.The Church does:Encourage
its members to play a role as responsible citizens in their communities.10:15 a.m. March 26, 2014=========== True and
Agreed -- However, There is an entire generation of Utah
Mormons who heard Ezra T. Benson -- and his words echo 50 years later.1 of 2 things will need to happen -- 1. This generation dies
off, and the ship rights itself.2. The Global Church -- majority of
Saints who live outside of Utah, and the United States.BTW -- I went
to our GOP caucus meeting.A very outspoken member of my ward stated this
-- "If the EPA is for it, then I'm against it!"This sort of blind partisan hatred -- the kind that trumps Right over
Wrong -- will doom the Latter-Day Saints.BTW ... he won the delegate
Mr. Davis glosses over two of the main reasons many Utahans won’t vote dem
and totally misses the third. Most Utahans do not support abortion on demand or
gay marriage, and those two points are central to dems. He glosses over these
and says dems just haven’t marketed themselves well enough. Then he says
we really don’t want conservative solutions, we just don’t want
dems. He totally missed that we refuse to buy the “dependency
on government for all good” that is the central dem tenet. Abortion on
demand (publicly funded), gay marriage, and government as the fount of all good
are the dem tenets we reject. These tenets are central to the dem
desire to privatize the gain and socialize the risk. Want to engage
in reckless and/or irresponsible behavior? Don’t worry, have fun, dems
will make sure someone else pays for your contraceptives or abortion or AIDS
drugs.Families don’t matter as long as you feel good about
yourself right now – let society pick up the pieces of the long term mess
you create.Got a problem? Only GOVERNMENT can fix itTHAT
is why dems lose here.
Kent,I agree with you but I do not believe that "economic
ideas" are the number one issue for many in Utah or in the GOP base.When one looks historically, the parties do not differ greatly on how
they govern concerning economics. That is why there is such a push to put
social issues on the forefront.Our politicians would much rather
differentiate the parties based on SSM and Abortion and discuss those issues
than have to talk about what they would do differently concerning SS and
Medicare.I guess that what I am saying is that if I were deeply
religious, I would lean GOP, although I do not see a night and day difference.
It probably comes down more to packaging. Because the realities are much more
nuanced than concrete.2 bits. I do not disagree with the
article.However, he writes that "Instead, it becomes
focused on other priorities such as ideological purity, and therefore narrows
its base rather than broadens it."I see this statement as much
more applicable to the GOP nationally along with the Dems in Utah.
@ECRThe editorial stance of this church owned paper is a direct
contradiction to that statement.
@ Joe BlowYour analysis will fall on death ears. When the GOP finally
starts to acknowledge our country's problems and opportunities and offer up
real solutions that they can get thru congress and signed by the WH they'll
get America's support. Until that time, they'll continue to believe
all the talking points of entitlements and low information voters.
Joe:"I understand why Utah is solidly Red." I don't.
Well, I guess I do, but probably for a different reason than you do. If most
Latter-day Saints understood Republican economic ideas and the inevitable
results they will produce, they would be abhorred and would probably stop voting
blindly for self-proclaimed conservative candidates. It's amazing the
damage voter ignorance can create.
Marxist - While I totally agree with your assessment that the Democratic Party
in Utah and the national party have abandoned the principles of Franklin
Roosevelt and other who were trying to safe the country by bolstering the lower
and middle classes, I have take exception with your assertion that this or any
other newspaper is the voice of "what LDS are expected to think." Any
member of the LDS church who thinks that way is not following the precepts
taught in church and elsewhere throughout the church. Many will scoff at my
statement but the ONLY thing taught by church leaders about political issues is
as follows:The Church does not:Endorse, promote or
oppose political parties, candidates or platforms.Attempt to direct its
members as to which candidate or party they should give their votes to. Attempt to direct or dictate to a government leader.The Church
does:Encourage its members to play a role as responsible citizens in
their communities.Anyone who advocates otherwise is misinformed.
Progressive politics is more closely related to LDS church doctrine than
conservative politics. Joseph Smith said, "I teach them correct principles
and let them govern themselves."
I didn't see anything I disagreed with in the letter. It made logical
sense to me. But I see some totally disagree with his analysis.
I guess that's why they call it the "Opinion Section".
"The reason Demos win in blue states is because of entitlements, not
values"So, then why are Republicans winning in the states that
have the most NON federal income tax payers?Top 10 states with
people who pay ZERO federal income tax. You know. A large chunk of the 47%
that Romney was talking about.Not one blue state in the mix.TexasNew MexicoArkansasLouisiana South
FT: The reason Demos win in blue states is because of entitlements, not values.
Of course entitlements must eventually be paid for which is why if you value
self reliance, family values, freedom and personal achievement, you probably
will not vote Democratic.
I agree with Thid Barker that voters in Utah, Idaho and other red states have
problems with the Democrat's platform. But, it's not because of their
"high values", instead its due to their different values and priorities.
The GOP has the "low information" voter locked up. The best chance the
Democrats have of courting more local support is to continue to win national
elections and be who they are. Look no further than SLC, it was once red too.
But as outsiders moved in, the city became more progressive and it is at the
point that a Republican has little chance of winning the mayorship. Utah is
progressing, rather slowly, but look at SLC and Moab as examples where voters
have shunned the GOP and the policies and values they offer.
There are two problems. Until they are addressed, nothing will change. First,
LDS culture is intertwined with the Republican Party. It didn't used to be
that way. Beginning in the early 1970s, the GOP has usurped the church, and the
church has allowed it to happen despite a weak attempt by Marlin Jensen to
reverse it. Congressman Jim Hansen viciously attacked Elder Jensen and the
effort went away. The GOP=LDS culture is reinforced daily by this newspaper.
In the end, this mutual identification will be counterproductive to the
interests of the Church. The second problem is with the Utah Democratic Party
itself. It eschews Mormons and has allowed itself to be the non-Mormon party.
Several years ago, I heard a state party chairman say that over his dead body
would be allow a Mormon to the the party candidate for Governor. Hello? So
many LDS Democrats have basically withdrawn from politics and the party is left
with virtually nothing in an LDS dominated state. My hopes for a two party
system are gone. Non-LDS Democrats don't want Mormons, and the Church
system doesn't seem to want to fix things. So, here we are.
"People who compromise their values have no values!"Talk
about buying into the party line.So, how about detailing out the
values. Maybe just 3 or 4.Then look at the elected Republicans in
this country along with the general Republican electorate.I will
take a shot at what the "values" you may be talking about. Feel free to
correct me.Abortion? You believe that the general GOP population
wants to outlaw abortion? Not according to the polesGay Marriage?
What percentage of self proclaimed GOP voters are opposed to all abortions?Universal Background checks for guns? Check out those polls. Americans,
including Republicans overwhelmingly favor that.The GOP controlled
all 3 branches of Govt for 6 years under GW Bush. What did they
accomplish, or even attempt to accomplish on your "values"Yes, one can make an argument for voting Republican based on "more
aligned", but to paint this as black and white between R and D is fairyland.
The problem for voters in my state and Utah is the Democrat party platform,
period! What they stand for is in direct opposition to everything most voters in
Red states esteem to be important and conflicts with our highest values. In
other words, we have value conflicts with Demos. People who compromise their
values have no values!
So basically the good professor is promoting a local democratic party that is
against women's rights and workers rights, but is for the rights of
corporations and the absolute unfettered activities of religions. And this would represent democratic principles how? Actually the
Utah democratic party is divided into two sections. Those Mormon Democrats who
are Democrats by family tradition, but believe, act, and vote as Republicans,
and the non Mormon Democrats who believe, act, and vote as Democrats. Forty years ago the social divide in the country was not what it is today and
the divide in the two parties was not what it is. Civil Rights was
just gaining a foot hold, Women's rights the same and it's that very
progress the good professor wants us to deny in order to go back to the
"good old days".No thanks sir.
"When a political party gives up on winning elections, it no longer reaches
out to the voters."And when a political party cant lose an
election, it also has no need to reach out to the voters.I
understand why Utah is solidly Red. But, a one party state is not beneficial in
national elections. The GOP cant lose, and the Dems cant win. Why bother to
court Utah?Compare that to Iowa.
I emphatically disagree with Professor Davis. One of the reasons for the
rightward shift of American politics is a Democratic Party which cares more
about electing Democrats than supporting the working class - middle and lower
income people who struggle to make ends meet. The national Democratic Party has
been complicit in the maldistribution of wealth in this country, being
apologetic about leftist politics, allowing right-wingers to define the debate.
I want a Utah Democratic Party which at least verbally defends the
interests of labor, women, and the economically stressed. You say that such
Democrats can't be elected. So what? We already have one Republican Party
we don't need another.Just electing Democrats, without
substance, is not going to get the job done. I joined the Socialist Party USA
after giving up on both the national and Utah Democratic Parties.If
you want to know what LDS are expected to think just read this editorial page
regularly. They are expected to oppose Obamacare, view organized labor
negatively, oppose SSM, be oblivious to the top heavy distributions of wealth
and income. This doesn't give Democrats anything to work with.