Re: LDS Lib, Mike R, & 2 bits on page 1If the US were to play
global supercop & "defend" Crimea; would it surprise anyone if Putin
did as JFK did in 1962 re: Cuba?
He's Hitler if a Republican is in the White House. He's just a
"regional power" showing "weakness" if Obama is President.
There, that was easy.
It's not clear what Putin's economic policies are, but Hitler was a
socialist, hence his National Socialist Party. Putin is an ultra-nationalist and
will act accordingly if the international community allows it. He, just as
Hitler did, advances in the presence of weakness. He had little to lose by
annexing the Crimea, South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
Not Our country not our business. I hope they nuke us if we try anything.
raybiesLayton, UTIsn't that what the Right-wing tried to
do - secede from the Union - when Lincoln and Obama won?
1994 Budapest Memorandum. The memorandum, signed by then-Ukrainian President
Leonid Kuchma, along with Bill Clinton, Boris Yeltsin, and John Major, required
that the signatories “respect the independence and sovereignty and the
existing borders of Ukraine” and “refrain from the threat or use of
force against the territorial integrity or political independence of
Ukraine.”The agreement doesn’t actually include any security
guarantees for Ukraine … or at least not under these circumstances. The
signatories are required to “seek immediate United Nations Security
Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine” only in the event of an
act of aggression “in which nuclear weapons are used.” As one
international law scholar puts it, “It is binding in international law,
but that doesn't mean it has any means of enforcement."The
agreement isn't what the war hawks believe it is.
dalefar wrote: "Just for the sake of discussion, what is fundamentally wrong
with allowing Russians to vote to be part of Russia and allowing Russia to annex
the lands populated by favorably voting Russians?"The problem is
that the vote didn't include the nation in which these people resided. It
only included Crimea, but Crimea was a sovereign part of Ukraine, and despite
the possibilities of voter intimidation, political briberies and armed forces
threatening the people, Ukrainians didn't get a vote in it. Imagine if, say a majority of Californians decided they wanted to be Mexico.
They were once part of Mexico, and there's a large number of Mexicans in
California. So they hold a vote and decide to be part of Mexico... would we just
let them go? All joking aside... (as I think most of would jokingly
say "Good riddance!") we simply wouldn't do it.
I agree that most hitler comparisons are over the top, but I find it appropriate
in this case. Hitler was a real person. I think in our unending potificating
hindsight we've made Hitler into the bogey man of all evils, but he started
out justifying his actions in much the same ways that Putin is now behaving.
It's entirely possible these actions could lead to very serious violence
that spreads across the whole world. We cannot be too cautious.
Hey our last illegal action like this had thousands of Iraqi men, women and
children dead by now. I think we have one dead Ukrainian soldier dead at the
moment. All deaths are tragic but I think I prefer Putin's invasions to
@Ignorance Must Be Bliss – “@Tyler D Are you suggesting that
"rumors of war" means the US will just hear about war or only get
involved illegally whenever we have a republican president?”Huh? I’m a liberal and want to scale down our military?I
don’t understand your question in the context of anything I said.
You’re reading way too much into it… I was talking about prophecy
across very long periods of time.
@EsquireSanctions are about the only options until Russian troops move
closer into the Ukraine. If that happens, the Crimea referendum would dwarf this
potential problem. Most right wing people realize the hole has already been dug.
The point is a lot could have been done before the referendum, and before the
yellow stripe down the back was not so obvious. Regardless, the real problem
will come later. And maybe not even with Russia. I am not sure our
president cares about anything else but his politcal agenda. Putin is the same
way. It seems to me Russians have mixed feelings on Putin. But they definitely
get defensive when America is brought into the conversation. Like America is
consciously out to get them. Some of us have ideals that peace and
utopia can come without being willing to defend ourselves and others. Other
idealists think being prepared to defend people you know nothing about from
bullies might be necessary to keep global long term peace. Not always, but
sometimes. I am with this group especially when we have the support of the
international community and law. Crazy though how we argue when most Americans
want the same thing.
Why the antics in assuming anyone who supports international laws and treaties
wants war? If the Ukraine still had nuclear capability Putin would be home
watching Dallas reruns right now. It has not been war itself, but the threat of
war that has kept super powers from invading others. In the 21st century some
people hoped treaties would replace the need for nuclear proliferation. What Obama does now sets precedence far beyond Crimea. If this was done
without Russian military involvement, this would possibly not be as big of an
issue. But now it gives the green light for countries that are actually
interested in nation building (not the US by the way) to work the system through
referendums and propaganda to gain land. Not to mention the ethnic cleansing
that will now ensue to purge areas of potential non-ethnic opposition.
@LDS LiberalI did not know Afghanistan and Iraq are now part of the United
States. @G-Day-M8Ukrainian presidential elections are going to
be held 25 May. Yanukovych was impeached and the people will be allowed to vote.
Regardless, this is an internal government issue. But Putin created a situation
where the use of another country's military force is now involved and he is
daring the rest of the world to escalate towards war. Also, I
guess some of us do not know Putin has said he is “considering”
running for a fourth term in 2018. Not to mention he changed Russian law back in
2008 to extend Presidential terms to 6 years. So who wants to be the
dictator?@Tyler DAre you suggesting that "rumors of
war" means the US will just hear about war or only get involved illegally
whenever we have a republican president? I'm trying to understand how a
liberal comes to terms with this. If anything it shows their will be a growing
need to defend against invaders in the last days. So why would we scale down our
military and allow weaker countries to be at the mercy of a stronger invader?
@ Mike Richards, with all due respect, you still haven't addressed the
issue. So for you it's war? Because Obama has imposed two waves of
sanctions, and more is in the works. He is trying to get Europe to take
stronger measures. It is moving, but it takes time. So, what are, specifically
the other alternatives? All I see is huffing and puffing, and hints at war, but
that's the end of it. Please, I beg of you, be specific and don't
It might be interesting to know if Putin would have taken this action if there
had not been an overthrow of the then existing leadership in the Ukraine. Any
response, of course, is just a guess, but it seems that we philosophically did
support that overthrow. The new government in the Ukraine was probably viewed
by Putin as hostile, though weak. That gave him both an excuse for action, and
some confidence that the new Ukrainian government could not take effective
The entire world is a market place, where the vendors push and shove to get the
most desirable venues while defending that which they have now. Since there are
no rules, it is like the Jungle. Our situation is like as if we
confined all the animals to an area that was shrinking in size due to some
global cause. As the area becomes smaller and more crowded, the competition for
life becomes much more intense. And much less humane. Hitler was
not a single individual, he comes along every once in a while. Usually as the
result of economic oppression and when a large group of people are ready and
willing for any relief. Is the statement: "Hitler justified his
invasion of Poland by claiming that Polish thugs were beating and killing
helpless Germans", any different that some Americans are making about
Christians in other nations? Do we have a Hitler somewhere being groomed for
Open Minded Mormon,One big difference... we didn't sign a treaty
specifically saying that we would honor Texas as an independent nation and even
help protect their borders if they would turn their nuclear weapons over to the
United States... and then after we got their weapons we turned around and
invaded them taking over their country...Big difference.===The treaty is clearly there... When we ignore it in our
comments... it shows what we think about integrity.America's
integrity is at stake here. We signed a treaty and made a promise.
We're not keeping it. Russia is also clearly not keeping THEIR
part of the agreement (which also shows no integrity). And our
President wants us to keep making Nuclear disarmament agreements with Russia
(when they obviously have no integrity and won't live up to their part of
the agreement).===BTW... you said that LDS
Liberal, Open Minded Mormon, and airnaut are the same account (but you only get
4 comments). I've counted several topics lately (this one included) where
you commented more than 4 times. Integrity is very important if you want
people to believe what you say.
I'm not a Political Scientist, by I play one on these comment boards -- Isn't this how Texas became part of the United States?1st Declaring Independance from Mexico in 1836, and then voting to annex
into the United States in 1845?Those thinking we should attack
Russia for the annexation of Crimea, would be like taking the side of
Mexico over the annexation of Texas.
Mike R. is an entertaining person.I love comedy!
So bush invades 2 countries killing thousands of Americans and Muslims while
Putin annexes (using democracy NOT bombs) a part of Ukraine that voted to be a
part of Russia and somehow Putin is compared to Hitler?Huh?We need some history lessons badly because if this is our mindset then we
truly have no idea what is going on. Bush lied, deceived, misled us to invade
Iraq just as hitler did to Germans to invade Poland. He murdered people by his
actions. Putin has yet to shoot a single missile or detonate a single bomb yet
he's compared to Hitler?Amazing
Just for the sake of discussion, what is fundamentally wrong with allowing
Russians to vote to be part of Russia and allowing Russia to annex the lands
populated by favorably voting Russians?
So, while we are omparing Putin to Hitler --- Ignoring parliment,
banning homosexuals, attacking, invading, and occupying sovereign
countries, going back to the good 'ole "Glory Days", anti illegal-immigration, segregating by race or ethnicity, seeking to build vast walls to secure borders, wearing patriotic flags
on street clothes, claiming to be the REAL Patriots or REAL
Germans/Russians, and spying on his own citizens.Yes --
I see alot of similarities, and I see some of them right here at
home in the U.S. of A.
Putin is the same as Lenin and Uhn. He will rule with blood and terror. Of
course I have not looked him in the eye as did President Bush but you can know
them by their actions. Take a look at the young Russian athlete as he praises
Putin ala Kim Jong Uhn.
@Clarissa – “In the end, it won't matter. The Savior will come
and all things shall cease. Just as the prophets have predicted: There will be
wars and rumors of wars in the Last Days.”If you meant this
simply because you’re frustrated and not sure what the solution is,
OK… we all can relate.But I find this sort of thinking deeply
troubling and you should too. Even for a religious person, if there’s one
lesson history has taught (which includes so far 2000 years without the 2nd
Coming) it’s that the world is what we make and it is our responsibility
to solve our own problems.And doesn’t that square with your
own beliefs? Doesn’t God want us to learn, mature, and progress? How do we
do that if we don’t take our challenges seriously and just expect to be
saved by a cosmic superhero?And given the fact that there have
always been wars (and rumors of them) throughout recorded history (but less now
as a percentage of total population than ever before), I’m not so sure we
should be overly impressed by this prediction.
Let's see...Russia has not launched a single sputnik, detonted a single atomic bomb, increased military spending or build up,
taken a single American job, has taken America into debts of
$Trillions, and is no longer COMMUNIST.1. Mitt Romney was
wrong.2. Putin is not our greatest threat.3. America's greatest
threat and enemy, is WallStreet's closest friend and Allies.
"but I remember MANY on your side comparing President Bush to Hitler... and
they said that was OK."They? Fine, I will condemn what
"They" say. And I will condemn "They" who say it is OK.I cannot stop "they" from saying or defending what is
over-the-top. I can only control what I say. Tell you what. Next time I use a
Hitler reference, feel free to call me out."But comparing an
American President you disagree with to Hitler is OK... OK I Get it
now..."No you dont get it. Are you now a mind reader? I am
happy to speak out against lots of thing said about Bush. And any personal
attacks. I happen to think Bush was a pretty good guy. So much so that I voted
for him, once anyway.And BTW, I dont have a "side". I have
no problem calling out either side. Tell you what. Feel free to
call me out any time I make a personal attack on a politician.
'2 bits -"There are other things we could be doing.
I've given several lists, ." Yes, but we need something applicable
and actually workable.And Michael Richards, I'm pretty sure the
Crimea is not mentioned at all in the United States Constitution . . . But the
Constitution IS pretty specific about providing for and promoting the General
Welfare of Americans.Obviously, the Constitution is inconsistent
with your prejudices Michael, but it still takes precedence over them. So you
might as well get used to it.Basically what we have here is a bunch
of right wingers with limitless complaints but with NO viable solutions . . .
The one thing I worry about is how Putin will treat the people of his country
and the ones he has invaded. We turned a blind eye about the Holocaust. I
don't know Putin well enough, but I believe he has done some very bad
things. In the end, it won't matter. The Savior will come and all things
shall cease. Just as the prophets have predicted: There will be wars and rumors
of wars in the Last Days.
Mike Richards,To some people, laws, treaties, constitution, etc, are like
the pirate's code... "the code is more what you'd call
"guidelines" than actual rules"...Once a document like
one of these gets a little old (the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security
Assurances, pledging to respect Ukraine territorial integrity, being what... 20
years old now... probably doesn't matter anymore). Heck the Constitution
is so old and obsolete they don't feel a need to follow it anymore! Why
would they respect any of these old treaties we signed?===For all the people jumping to the conclusion that "If you don't like
what Obama's doing, you want all out war"... I'd ask you to be a
little less presumptive and judgmental. Just because you don't like what
we are doing (which isn't exactly working)... does NOT mean you want all
out war.There are other things we could be doing. I've given
several lists, I've seen other Conservatives on TV and this opinion page
provide lists... so the leap to "You just WANT WAR"... is not justified
LDS Liberal,Article II, Section 2: "He shall have Power, by and
with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, . . . "Article VI: "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States
which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall
be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of
the Land; . . . "Article I, Section 8: "The Congress shall
have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the
Debts and provide for the common Defence . . ."---It's all there if you care to take the time to read it.
It’s always interesting to read the comments on stories like this –
gives you a real sense of what color glasses people are wearing when they look
at the world.My glasses must be black, because the biggest takeaway
I got from this article is that nothing good ever comes from nations who get
rich solely by selling natural resources. No doubt it will bring
about a whole new set of problems, but I long for the day when we finally
develop a cheap, clean & portable energy source (which virtually all
scientists agree is only a matter of time before the Sun fills this role), and
we can relegate these petro-thugs to the dustbin of history.
JoeBlow Far East USA,Re When are politicians going to learn NOT to play
the "Hitler" card?...So Bennett is terrible for making a
Hitler comparison... I agree... but I remember MANY on your side comparing
President Bush to Hitler... and they said that was OK. They actually said it
was their "Duty" to do it!So comparing Putlin to Hitler gets
your goat. But comparing an American President you disagree with to Hitler is
OK... OK I Get it now...===I agree all the Hitler
comparisons are a bit much. You don't have to be Hitler to get our
attention. Putin and his ambitions are quite enough without mixing in all the
Once the domain of glenn beck, now everyone can play the hitler card.
Does Putin need to be Hitler? Isn't Putin being Putin bad enough?Hitler was bad, but he's not the only really really bad leader
they've had in the Socialist movement. There's been a bunch of them.
I'll get the list if you can't remember.I don't think
we need to make Putin into Hitler before we decide we need to pay attention to
him.===I think our administration (not just this one)
and our people ignored him for a long time. Our politicians told us it was
time to dismantle our military and our nuclear arsenal. We were so confident we
were alone as the only economic and military super-power in the world. Well...
look at how quickly that all can change when you get all full of yourself!I wonder if President Obama's having second thoughts about how he
viewed Putin early on.I suspect he does.
@Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahPull out the
"Constitition" and please show us all where it says the United States
has a Military obligation to attack Russia over Crimea?Seriously!Talk about Trampling the Constitution.BTW -- When/How are we going
to pay for the last invasions?
Mike Richards:Rudy Giuliani on Putin:"Putin decides
what he wants to do and does it in half a day, right?...He makes a decision and
executes it quickly. Then everybody reacts. That's what you call a
leader. President Obama, he's got to think about it. He's got to go
over it again. He's got to talk to more people about it"Any excuse to bash Obama, right?
Esquire,Do you keep your commitments? When you "shake" on a
"deal", do you back away from your "oath" just because you
don't want to be involved?Everyday, every one of us keeps the
commitments that we have made. We expect others to keep their commitments. Putin knew that Obama would do nothing if the Ukraine were attacked. He
KNEW Obama's character.We know Obama's character. His
followers excuse him. They tell us that their personal security and personal
welfare are more important that keeping commitments. They tell us that the
Ukraine couldn't really expect us to honor a treaty when so many of us are
pounding on the government's door for our daily bread. To Obama and his
followers, the fate of the Ukraine is less important than extending welfare
lines in the USA. Putin would not have risked his military or his
country's wealth if Obama were the kind of person that kept commitments.
Obama's lack of responsibility allowed Putin to walk right in and take over
a country with almost no opposition. Putin will continue to march forward as
fast as Obama retreats.
The Cold War need never have been. With the death of Stalin the USSR began to
change, which accelerated in time. But anti-socialist hysteria (still with us)
and the saber rattling of Harry Truman ignited and kept the Cold War stoked in
the west - threatening Russia. BTW, Senator Bennett seems to have forgotten the
U.S. led invasion of Russia following WWI - much of Russia's paranoid
personality goes back to that.There are interests inside of the
United States and Russia which want the Cold War back. Here we go again.
@ Mike Richards, let's be clear. You are as obvious as it comes in
advocating war with Russia. If not, then what should Obama have done, and what
should he do? Those of you on the right, who despise the President, take shots
and huff and puff, but I have yet to see anything of substance on real action
except hint at war. I suppose that gives you an emotional release, but the real
world can' operate that way.
The lies and distortions are flying fast and furious. "Conservatives"
have not praised Putin, they have scoriated Obama for not filling his duty to
the treaty that the United States has with the Ukraine. The
"left" wants all tax revenue to be used for social programs, even though
not one social program is authorized by the Constitution; however, defense is
listed six times in the list of duties for which Congress is required to tax us.
Bob Bennett accurately described what is happening. Just because
Obama has failed (again) to do his duty is no excuse for the liberals to blame
Conservatives or to falsely claim that Conservatives support Putin. Putin knows that Obama will never do anything except "talk". He
called Obama's bluff. Now all that Obama will do is sputter rhetoric
against Putin. Which is worse, Russia taking the Ukraine or the
United States failing to honor a treaty?
We should remember Putin was a high ranking member of the KGB, and he
want's to rebuild. This man is ruthless and he's not afraid to kill
what ever gets in his way. I'm not worried if he's another Hitler,
but I'm worried he's another Stalin. If Stalin had not been a member
of the winning team in WWII, he would be be remembered as the one who killed the
most jewish people. In order to get his way Stalin murdered and starved
millions of his own people; and one of the hardest hit areas was the Ukraine. I
fear history will repeat its self and we have leaders like Chamberlin and
Baldwin who believe they can sign agreements with killers and the killers will
abide by the agreements. History has taught us killers will only follow the
agreements as long as they help them; and they stop benfiting them tney will
Seriously?We invade an occupy Afghanistan AND Iraq, We
threaten Iran, Libya and Syria, and now Russia.And you have the
audacity to call Putin names?Who are your people, and where
have you been for the last 14 years?Unbelievable! Seriously!
Joe, who would you like Putin's Hitler-like actions compared to? Mother
Teresa?I don't think so.
I am sorry.... I am no Putin apologist, nor am I a Bush basher.... but....
really? Putin takes back Crimea under the most of dubious excuses... and the
US has the male parts enough to start calling him names. The nation that
launched a 12 preventive war - resulting in deaths tolling over 100,000....in a
country that really presented no strategic threat to ourselves, and we are now
crying foul. We are comparing Putin to Hitler? How many foreign nations over
the last 20 years have we taken direct action in? Now that said, we
eventually went home, or are trying to go home. Do I think Russian troops are
going home? No. But I do feel we will have an equal NATO presence in Ukraine
before all is said and done.So yes, we need to push back on Putin as
hard as a we- even by arming the Ukraine. But he is no way close to a Hitler.
He is more like Bush II - and we and the west are in Russia's version of
the axis of evil.
The irony in Bob's article is astounding. If he included the
obama administration, his comments would be right on. Bob never
mentions that it was US interference in Ukraine that ousted Russian friendly
President Viktor Yanukovych and inserted Neo-Nazi Prime Minister Oleksandr
Turchynov.John McCain, John Kerry, Victoria Nuland, Joe Biden and
others were all front and center orchestrating Ukraine's regime change and
all the while they change the narrative to that of "it's all
Putin's fault. The morphing of history is going on before
history itself happens. Talk about a well orchestrated propaganda machine.
It's all over this article.
Don't forget: just before WWII, there was an Olympic Games that many
nations threatened to boycott for things akin to terrorism. And what just
happened in Sochi?
When are politicians going to learn NOT to play the "Hitler" card?Bennett compares Putin to Hitler and many conservatives praise
Putin's decisiveness. Maybe, hopefully, someday, Americans
will put America ahead of partisan party politics. One can only hope.
Thanks for this article. It helped me to better understand the situation.