So the argument some of the so-called 'mainstream Christians'
commenting here are making seems to be that the Holy Scriptures contain and
outline covenants yet this does not constitute a valid or applicable
"contract" because no one can show you your own 'wet-ink'
signature as a party to it? Someone seemed to be talking about the
membership status of the disaffected tom Phillip who brought this suit, I wonder
if the anti-mormon Paul Drockton (if this is actually his real name) is also a
member of record? He seems to preach all manner of libel against President
Monson... really, it's stuff that could get ya sued big time...Just wonderin
@Silverprospector I've thoroughly researched the BofA and the BofM, and,
since this is my last comment (just 4 still??) I'll simply say that if any
critic had actually found any fatal flaw with either book, they would have
posted it by now. It's easy to claim the BofA was mistranslated, but
providing proof seems impossible, so it's a matter of faith for the
anti-mormon ;). On the other hand, it also seems impossible for Joseph to
have known all the accurate names, customs, language structure, symbolism,
places, geographic ups & downs & turns & customs & political
powers, etc etc of the ancient MEast & Americas. He included Lamanite
Baalisms, barley, elephants, the Tree-Mary, King, crocodile, goddess, etc all
appropriately associated (as in Americas, Egyptian, MEast) Abraham consistently
as Osiris (how did JS know?), seer with Hor (&Shulem), Jah-oh-eh as earth,
Amon-Re key to open way, was-scepter as authority, wdjet light & glory,
Horus-Soped etc as firmament & ship as ship of 1000, "Olishem" now
found in Naram Sin, Abraham anciently associated with sacrifice on lion couch,
Kolob heart of universe, creative center (of4) apes associated with stars etc
etc etc. How did Joseph know?
@Jesus loves youIf we are to use your conclusions, then Jesus fulfilled
the 10 commandments and they are no longer commandments. Since the laws are
fulfilled, you advocate that we can lie, steal, cheat, murder, hate our parents,
worship idols, and several other things, as long as we accept Jesus as our
Savior. I don't buy your argument, but you may choose to ignore the
admonition of Jesus to take care of the poor and in many other ways be perfect,
even as our Father in Heaven is perfect. And Jesus didn't really mean it
when he told the woman, "Go thy way and sin no more". May I advocate
that you read the entire scriptures and find that whatever is good comes from
I can't wait to hear from President Thomas S. Monson within the next couple
weeks... I do doubt he'll mention this case.
JMWith your comment I have to wonder if you have done any research
at all into the book of Abraham, book of Mormon, or the life of Joseph Smith.
According to your bold claims, my bet would be no. Most Mormon at least
acknowledge that there are problems with his stories. They also acknowledge that
the book of Abraham is a problem because Josephs translation of it (the parts we
do have) are wrong. You seem to deny that these problems exist, and that
concerns me. ObjectifiedI have paid tithing for 47
years. I have stopped paying it for the last 11 years. My life is the same,
except I have more money to use for things my family needs. We are very blessed.
Nothing has changed since I decided to stop, so the blessings that I am
apparently missing out on aren't noticeable so I guess I won't miss
them. (I don't believe they existed in the first place). I don't
believe god will reward those who pay him and punish those that don't.
See "Why Giving Matters" to learn some of many wonderful things about
LDS tithing. Brooks was president of the American Enterprise Institute and is
Catholic. As for Phillips and Co., Mormons who think don't try to
destroy faith, reason, or innocent people. Thinking Mormons know the Book of
Abraham and Book of Mormon are miraculous and historical. And the logical,
spiritual, religious, etc. evidence supports that. And, after nearly 200
years of trying to prove these books are false, none- not the educated critic or
the ranting haters, or anyone in between- no one has been able to find a fatal
flaw in either book, and each critical claim has fallen or will fall. The valid evidence indicates that LDS scriptures are the word of God, AND are
Historical. And Joseph Smith could not have known the truths in them without
God's help. This includes the books accurately giving names,
symbols, places, customs, cultures, geography, predictions etc. etc. unknown to
JS or his associates. So, Critics, be thankful that God guides and
gives, smile and do something worthwhile : ). The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS
does great good, and brings happiness to those humble enough to heed.
@Stormwalker:Have you ever hear of embezzlement, i.e. one set of books to
show where the money goes and one set of where the money REALLY goes. I am not
saying that you religions do that. I am saying that, when you have faith, it is
a more powerful force than paper...
We receive some blessings now, but many of them are unseen and not related to
this mortal existence as we see it. The greatest blessings will come after our
mortal existence. We pray for our families to be protected and blessed but are
we always aware of being protected? I believe that we are protected and blessed
in ways that we don't even realize or understand right now. Mortality is
brief -- "life eternal" with God is forever.
@ Silverprospector:No one ever claimed that non-believers who
don't pay tithing don't receive blessings. There are all types of
blessings that people can receive that are unrelated to the paying of tithes.
But those who don't pay tithes don't receive the specific blessings
related to that particular commandment. And those who pay tithes with the wrong
attitude miss out on blessings as well. It's a fact.Put the Lord to
the test and try it. And if you do it correctly, you'll discover blessings
you never previously knew existed. @ DocHolliday:It
seems pretty obvious from your statements that even if you previously did
actually pay tithing, you did it with the wrong attitude and for the wrong
reasons. Otherwise, the blessings you would've received would vastly
outweigh those you still receive when not paying tithes per God's
commandment. As explained above, people can and do receive blessings
unrelated to the paying of tithes. But it's impossible to receive the
specific blessings related to the paying of tithes without actually doing so,
and with a spirit of love toward your fellowman. Literally all tithe money is
used to benefit mankind.
"The whole idea was bizarre and unwise."Unwise depends on
your perspective. If Phillip's goal was to win the lawsuit, it probably
was, although even at that the church had to pay its own legal fees. If his
goal was to get some unfavorable press for the church and wake some more people
up that probably happened.
@A1994 "The tithes that are collected by the church are accounted for and
used much more efficiently than the collections of other Christian
denominations."Every non-LDS church I have been part of
publishes a full line item budget for the coming year and a full line-item
financial report of all income and all spending during the previous year. It is
printed and available to all members. If memory serves, an LDS
Church leader at General Conference declares that accountants have looked at the
records and all are in order. No details and nothing is published - you just
have to believe everything is fine and wonderful. I prefer a whole
lot more transparency in my financial reports. As far as
"efficient use" - by what standard? I am currently a member of a UU
church that has a skilled and knowledgeable professional staff, a wonderful
building that is in almost constant use by community groups for positive causes,
and members who are engaged in good works in the community in a wide range of
causes. I am not sure how much more efficient you can get.
bj-hpSo just to clarify, you think that the vast majority of the
world who aren't mormon and don't pay tithing don't get
blessings? That is a bold claim, and I don't think for one second that it
is true. Because the promise the lord gives is so vague (blessed beyond
measure), that you could consider and count any good luck as a
'blessing' when you pay tithing. Conversely, you could easily use any
bad luck example of a non tithe payer as a trial for not having paid tithing. So
many people don't pay tithing and have full, rich (blessed) lives, and I
have seen so many people pay tithing and keep having bad things happen to them
over and over. So the lord's vague promise can't be counted as a
realistic one. Especially because the lord gave the tithing commandment to a
group of people in the bible over 2,500 years ago (if at all).
LDS don't believe tithing saves them & many Christian leaders believe
in "tithing" donations etc. and bemoan the fact that some
"Christians" reject almost all of the commandments (see quote below). On
topic: TomP's case was not just silly and based on bogus claims, it was
also bullying, hateful, and greedy. (Read Tom quotes on FAIRlds). It's sad that so called "Christians" would support this guy and
his tall tales. Anti-mormons have been trying to prove the Church is false
for nearly 200 years, all have failed, and always will, even if they find an
anti-mormon Judge to go along with it. : )A good video for those
rejecting tithing is "Why Giving Matters" by Arthur C. Brooks, he's
Catholic. From Ronald J. Sider on beliefnet& Scandal of the
Evangelical Conscience “Only six percent of born-again Christians give the
traditional tithe..And when it comes to racism, Lord have
mercy…evangelicals were more racist than everybody else....poll after
poll.."that evangelical Christians are as likely to embrace lifestyles every
bit as hedonistic, materialistic, self-centered, and sexually immoral as the
world in general."
The Lord has promised that as we pay tithing that we will be blessed beyond
measure. We are also told that we were also not have certain things until after
the test of our faith. I too have seen many who don't pay tithing gets
lots of tithing and those that do get lots of trials. It reminds me of Job who
went through all types of test just so Satan could test his diligence. After
the test of his faith he received everything two fold. The same is said for
those who say I don't pay tithing and I get lots of blessing. As Elder
Oaks has taught 100 income and no blessings is always less than 10% of income
plus blessing. Sometimes we don't what those blessings are until we
actually sit down and see them. In my life since I started paying an honest
tithe I've not been want for anything. This who legal thing was nothing
more than trying to prove something that can't be proven.
DocHolliday,I do not see it as the source of a specific temporal
blessing much more or less than the other commandments.I always
think we fail to read the question to which the oft quoted verses (starting with
8) are an answer.The question is found in verse 7: "Even from
the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not
kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts.
But ye said, Wherein shall we return?"Tithing is a principle
given to help Israel return to the Lord (and we to Him). Perhaps it also helps
to keep our hearts from straying "For where your treasure is, there will
your heart be also."
People seem to have trouble with a little understanding as to what commandments
are for. I know you anti-mormon types don't like us to use scripture that
you don't believe in, but it seems to help to make the point. In Doctrine
and Covenants 82 it states, 8 And again, I say unto you, I give unto you a new
commandment, that you may understand my will concerning you;9 Or, in
other words, I give unto you directions how you may act before me, that it may
turn to you for your salvation. Basically those things that He tells
us to do are there to help us to understand Him a little better. I do realize
that sacrificing a little of my income to help others barely even scratches the
surface on the amount of sacrifice that my Lord and Savior, but it helps me to
understand Him just a little bit more. Also, I'm not quite
sure that I understand why it bothers you so much about what I do with my money.
anyway, that is just me.Hope everybody has a great day.
Philips makes no claims that the teaching of tithing itself is fraudulent, so
anyone who thinks this somehow links to Philips claims is ignorant of them. The
shocking thing is that he made any progress with these claims, which were just
as bizarre and down right off the wall as the tithing claim. His claim with
relation to the martyrdom of Joseph Smith is probably the most bizarre one,
mainly because it is built around deliberately misrepresenting statements of
Church leaders, ad trying to create a new case of criminal fraud that would
stifle almost all speech.Philips victory would have a much greater
negative impact on free speech than it would on freedom of religion. He seeks a
world where you have to speak in a way that agrees to someone elses narrow
definition of truth or face criminal penalties. That is very scary for all
Phillips unlimited hate in not even referring to a church as a Church is a sign
of people who avoid anything that even approaches good dialogue. Phillips is
very representative of those people who seem to want to drive wedges between
people, and engage in toxic dialogue. The world is a better place the less
attention he gets. His rhetoric is toxic and divisive and the worst possible
thing for the creation of good will.
Elizabeth Roscoe should be disciplined for this blatant disregard for good
judicial proceedings in issuing the initial findings. I also hope that contempt
of court is found on Phillips and he is made to pay all the costs of this
massive, over the top, freedom threatening legal action.
The only surprising thing is that it took so long to come to this outcome.The accusations had no clear connection to tithing. The issues would
have required inquiry into religious belies and an attempt to determine their
validity. The whole idea was bizarre and unwise. This case will probably lead to
a decision in England to end alloance of private prosecutions.
Madlyn6114I have not felt guilty or remorseful for one single second
for not paying tithing. Since I stopped I have been blessed immensely. That is
why I believe that no blessings are tied to tithing. It is independent of any
blessings that come your way in life.
Far too often the justice system is used by some for unjust purposes.It's nice to see someone in a position of authority actually has andexercises some common sense.
"Losers Pay" law is in force in England where the Plaintiff pays for the
attorney costs of the defendant if he loses. Since this was
dismissed on the basis that the court felt the suit as an attack on religious
principles, and that no court in the Britain would allow such a question of
religious believe to be put before the court, the plaintiff will pay for the
attorney's costs. That is the case in most of the world, but not in the
United States. In the US, and only in Texas where a recently passed
bill which was signed by Governor Rick Perry in which a party brings a suit and
loses, will he have to pay the other parties attorney's fees if he
loses.The "trial court attorney's" is a very strong
lobby in the US, but people are getting fed up with frivolous cases, and in
states which do not have the Texas law, in the judges discretion, he/she can
require that the Plaintiff pay for the attorney's costs. But, this is only
in each individual case.
We are here on earth to do our best to do what our Heavenly Father asks us to
do. Tithing is a sacrifice for some of us. But aren't we really just trying
to understand in a very infinitesimal degree the great and infinite sacrifice
the Savior made for all of us. We are in school of sorts, being taught by our
experiences and choices. If you want to be able to practice medicine as a
physician it is required that you receive and are proficient by schooling and
training-- if as Christ has ask us to "be ye therefore perfect , even as
your Father in Heaven is perfect" then we no doubt, progress to do that by
choosing to obey His commandments-- we can't become like Him unless we walk
as He walked, sacrifice as he sacrificed ( in our own small way) learn, grow, be
obedient to the Master teacher so that we too, can one day be like Him. Enduring
to the end as Paul was successful in doing, is not easy-- we just have to keep
doing our very best and Christ will make up the difference in His own way and
*yawn*....let it go Mr Phillips. Life's too short to waste it being full of
hate. Move on, find a hobby that's productive. Try working with animals
(very therapeutic) or growing a garden (healthful and therapeutic). Doing
something productive will give you good vibes and positive energy.
There have been many statements and half-truths made regarding LDS doctrine.
Salvation Is separate from tithing. No one is forced to pay it. I do choose to
do so. However, if I do not, I can still attend services weekly and take part in
activities short of temple ordinances. I could even choose to skip tithing
settlement. Life would go on. The guilt as well belongs with the person, you own
your feelings. I can also assure the other commentators here that other
denominations do place limits based on tithing. Some will not marry couples who
are not tithing payers. In my career as a nurse, I have also had the horrible
experience of calling church pastors only to be told they would not come to a
critically ill person's bedside because they were NOT tithing paying
members and not considered to be in full fellowship with that faith. I have been
at the bedside of a baby where parents were told if they had paid full tithing,
they would not have been visited with this trial. It was a huge televangelist
ministry. The only two faiths who came without restrictions: LDS and Roman
Just reading this guys arguments displays his total lack of understanding of
doctrine as well as biblical teachings alone. Sad. But the Judge came to the
only reasonable decision.
Dear Jesus Loves UI was saved the moment I was baptized, having
faith in Jesus Christ. It's a blessing and a privilege for me to offer
tithes, contemplating God's grace and goodness in the Gift of His Son who
gave Himself to purchase my soul from sin, sorrow, and death. By His sacrifice
I am saved. In my tithes, I remember Him, give thanks, and praise His Holy
When we ponder the scriptures the words "Grace and being saved" are
clear on the Lords part with reference to the resurrection.However,on our end we
have a lot to prove to the Lord. The world is in great need of understanding and
accepting the principle of faith vs works and as we do so we will then and only
then....we will understand obedience to the Lords commandments. Faith and works
directly reflect volumes on the Lords sacrifice on our behalf namely the
atonement. Paying tithing is a priceless commodity in terms of commitment to the
faithful. We can never do right and feel wrong and vice verser and thats the
fruits of the spirit of truth. The Prophets have seen our days many thousand
years before and many prophecies are being fulfilled in our days due to lack of
faith and following the prophets. I am not surprised to see whats going on in
our world... Isaiah, Nephi and Moroni have reportedly seen our days with great
concern and sadness... but be of good cheer because he will never give up on us.
He has already set the path for us to follow and follow we must.
This lawsuit was a silly attempt to try and expose much of the dubious claims
the LDS church circulates to its membership and others throughout the world via
missionary work. There are countless religions out there that champion similar
unprovable propaganda. Religion simply cannot be legally proven or
refuted and should remain a matter of faith. More importantly, such issues of
faith should be kept out of the legal arena, except in clear cases where an
organization has intentionally harmed a person.Regarding tithing,
call it a test, obedience, opportunity, gift, whatever you like - the fact
remains that there is indeed a hard cash 10% requirement for Latter Day Saints
to ultimately receive the "blessings" of exaltation and eternal
life...pure and simple. Calling it out in such a straightforward manner makes it
uncomfortable for many Latter Day Saints to admit, but it's no less a fact.
I think even if the court in the UK tried to adjudicate the faith issues (which
is ludicrous, but I'm speaking hypothetically), there remains the issue of
whether or not tithing is a "pay to play" requirement. Sure, you
won't get a temple recommend if you don't pay a full tithe, but
that's your choice, and you will still be a member of the church. No one
is excommunicated for not tithing. Each member has to decide for themselves
what their priorities are. Mr. Phillips is just beating his head against the
wall with this foolishness.
hatchna wrote: "We are taught that the grace of Christ is sufficient for all
to be saved, but that we must work to obtain that grace."This is
a common misunderstanding in the church -- and one that misrepresents the LDS
Church to the rest of Christianity.Nothing we do earns grace. Grace
is a free gift from our Savior Jesus Christ. Without that grace, no one could
even be saved in the Telestial Kingdom (let alone be exalted to the highest
degree of the Celestial Kingdom).But what kingdom we inherit is not
based on what Christ would willing give us (namely everything) but rather on the
kind of person we most deeply, truly want to be (and are working to become).
Our actions, words, and faith all reinforce our desire to be with and be like
our Father in Heaven. Our mortal flaws and limitations ensure none of us will
arrive at our final destination in this life; however, with our desires firmly
on our goal, we have faith that, through Christ's atonement, we will reach
that goal.Withhold nothing from the Lord; accept His full gift!
Where do people get the idea that asking someone to pay tithing to their church
is fraud? It is a totally voluntary act of faith. No one is out there shaking
down people, threatening to break their kneecaps, or casting cement shoes for
them because they don't pay. And why would someone personally sue Pres.
Thomas S. Monson for these things, anyway? He didn't institute the
faith's idea of tithing. These funds are voluntarily donated to the church
to help forward its cause of spreading the light of Christ through the gospel of
Christ to all who will listen and accept its teachings. If you can't accept
those teachings, don't. But you cannot take that right away from those who
do. Magistrate Riddle did the right thing.
It seems to me that this whole thing was not a legal proceeding, but a political
one. And absolutely both sides drank of that bitter cup. The Lord will
protect, and will condone the protection of His Church by whatever means
Jesus Loves USalvation without sacrifice? God asks more for his
sacrifice. The test is, do we believe it, or do we expect salvation on the
cheap, just because we ask. It wasn't easy for HIM, and it isn't
supposed to be for us. Besides a tithe, the LDS Church teaches, as the Book of
James does, that "Faith Without Works, is Dead."As to the
real point of this article, expect more such lawsuits coming, especially in this
no consequences country with all the lawyers who would love to bring a lawsuit
@Redshirt1701"Paying what you determine to be a full tithe is a
requirement for entering the Temple. You do not have to enter the temple to
receive salvation. Temple ordinances are needed for exaltation."===== Agreed - sort of.You only go through the Temple
1 time - [the very first time] - for yourself.Everything else after that
for the rest of your mortal life is on behalf of someone else.Like
Socialsim, working on behalf of others less fortunate or not ABLE to for
themselves, having sufficient [but not excessive] for your own needs, call it "a redistribution of Exhaltation" if you will.
I think a lot of people are missing the point about Tithing. Yes, it is a
prerequisite for a temple Recommend and yes, we are required to pay a 10th. Not
because the Church needs it, or the Lord needs it, because we all know that he
could give his church all the money in the world if he so desired... We are
asked to pay out of Obedience, for Obedience is the first law in Heaven and the
1 thing that rules humans and is the prevalent driving force of most peoples
hearts, is money and the love of money. By asking us to give up 10% of our
earnings(which isn't a lot)we are being tested to see where our hearts
really lie. It really doesn't matter who is wrong or right or why
the LDS Church and it's people follow the Law of Tithing. What matters is,
"How obedient are you willing to be for The Lord?"
Sooner or later the Court had to rule against Mr. Phillips. I wish him all
the best in his life's quest of taking down the LDS Church. He isn't
the first to try and he won't be the last. I suggest he see what happened
to those people though.
Just because one pays tithing does not mean they don't have any trials. My
wife and I are full tithe payers and within six months our daughter has died and
I have had brain surgery for a tumor. Yet I know that God loves me and my
family. No doubt. I am very happy to pay an honest tithe because we will and
are receiving the great blessings promised in Malachi.
@Jesus Loves UYou have your faith and the LDS have theirs. Just
because their faith and doctrine is different that what you think it should be,
it doesn't make it fraud. The tithes that are collected by the
church are accounted for and used much more efficiently than the collections of
other Christian denominations.
THinksIthink- then obviously, your Bishop, Stake president or Branch President
is either not asking you all the questions in the temple recommend interview or
they are giving the recommend to you without you paying tithing. IF it is the
later, then they are in violation of church rules.
I've never tithed to the church. I always give to charities because I like
to support certain groups and want to know where my money is going.I've also never been denied a Temple recommend. You don't have to
tithe to the Church, but giving 10% to charities counts just the same.
@cris who stated "We are not forced to pay tithing to the church." This statement is not true if you want to see your child be married in
the temple you are required to pay 10%!
Now, since church leaders and revelation has come regarding temples, temple
ordinances and the law of tithing. why would a member ever get the impression
that paying tithing is something they shouldn't do? How would they continue
in the religion, if they believed paying tithing was voluntary, especially since
every year, you have "tithing settlement" and the Bishop asks you if you
are a full tithe payer or not. Who has felt the guilt when they've said NO,
Bishop, I am not a full tithe payer? If it was voluntary, then no guilt would be
felt. No guilt would be felt if it wasn't a law and something required. To
state otherwise is lying. Perhaps you should ask you bishop on Sunday if you
feel my comments are wrong. Or you can also ask a temple worker or your stake
president. Or, you can ask my parents, who are temple workers at the KC temple.
They are there on Fridays.
Now, Mormons have a distinct doctrine. This is that families can be eternal
through temple ordinances. Also, that if you are endowed, you can also be with
HF. getting endowed also requires paying tithing in order to get a temple
recommend, so you can enter the temple.Also, tithing is referred to by
church leaders as "the law of tithing". Now, as with most laws, if it
is not followed, there are consequences. What are those consequences. Well, one
of them is that the destroying angel is pass by your door IF you pay a honest
and full tithe. Now, the second one, is that you can't be a fully
participating member if you dont pay a full tithe. This means, you cant get a
temple recommend and maybe hold some higher leadership callings. Now, perhaps
you dont care about going to the temple or the destroying angel, then you dont
pay your tithing. However, if this is true, then why be a member at all? If
temples are so vital to the religion and you think paying tithing is not a law
and it is a voluntary thing, then why be a member at all?
Re: Dave M, You should cite your source. OK,(Reed Smoot)Faced with
intense pressure, Church leaders accepted the resignations of apostles Matthias
Cowley and John W. Taylor, who were rumored to have performed plural marriages
after the Manifesto. To further evidence good faith, in the annual April
conference of 1904 President Smith issued a "Second Manifesto" that
added ecclesiastical teeth to the Manifesto of 1890. Excommunication would now
follow for those who refused to relinquish the practice of plural
marriage.(Encyclopedia of Mormonism).A bishop then must be
blameless, the husband of one wife,…. 1 Timothy 3:2(KJV) The
Apostles did not maintain any .O.T. pattern of polygamy and they and the early
church condemmed it.1. Justin Martyr (c.160) rebukes the Jews for allowing
polygamy:" [ANF, vol. 1, p. 266]2. Irenaeus (c.180) condemns the
Gnostics for, among other things, polygamy: a plurality of wives..." [ANF,
vol. 1, p.353]Re: BCA,.. to the one who does not work but trusts God
who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness(Romans 4:5
NIV). You who are trying to be justified by the law have been
alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.(Gal 5:4NIV)
Most LDS members are taught that if you want to be with your family forever, you
need to get sealed in the temple to them. Now, in order to be sealed in the
temple, you have to have a temple recommend. In order to get a temple recommend,
you have to have an interview with your Bishop and Stake president, in some
cases. Now, one of the questions asked of you is if, you are a full tithe payer.
If you aren't a full tithe payer, you could either lie about it to get the
recommend, or you could answer, yes, or no. Now, if you answer, No, as a honest
answer, you will not get the temple recommend. This means, you cant go to the
temple and perform the ordinances you need in order to be with Heavenly Father
after this life. Now, what member wouldn't want to be with HF after this
life? I dont know. Maybe there are some who dont really care. If that's the
case, then why be in the religion at all?
using the same logic we could outlaw the entire New Testament for its fantastic
and unprovable claims of the resurrection of Jesus and all of his miracles.
Throw also all the angelic appearances and transfiguration of Moses and Elias
with Jesus and let's just burn and ban the New Testament and shut down
Christianity. Stupid is as stupid does...someone once said.
I think we should all pray for him. For him to come to this....makes me feel
sorrow for him. Regardless of his actions (which I strongly do NOT support) he
is still a son of God. Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love
your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray
for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
@Redshirt1701"Paying what you determine to be a full tithe is a
requirement for entering the Temple. You do not have to enter the temple to
receive salvation. Temple ordinances are needed for exaltation."So basically this is where the argument is. Some non-LDS Christians (since
obviously LDS is Christian too) are saying that the LDS church requires you pay
money to be saved and your response is the equivalent of saying 'no... but
getting the platinum membership in heaven requires it'.So
everyone is sort of half-right.
For those not of the LDS faith, I think it is important for you to also know
what tithing go's towards. Our leaders are NOT paid and the money go's
to many things to help around the world including building church's,
temple's and paying for programs within the church such as programs to
strengthen our youth. There are also many programs that help in disaster relief
and providing programs in poverty stricken areas of the world, such as clean
water or wheelchairs/prosthetics at no cost to them. We also have fast offerings
that go towards feeding the hungry and sheltering the poor, not just of our
faith. Also as stated above tithing is not new with the LDS faith it is in the
Holy Bible as well, which we believe to also be the word of God.
There is no cash requirement to be saved, we are saved by works AND grace, the
gift of grace is free, but we need to try to live the commandments that god has
given us. We pay tithes to show god our love.(3 Nephi 24: 8-10) If you disagree
I'm sorry but to sue President Monson for our doctorine of tithes is like
suing the Pope Catholic doctorine of confession of sins. Because tithes are not
forced, and the temples are on privately owned property. To sue President
Monson is comparable to suing Bob Iger (The CEO of Disney) for having you pay to
get into Disney land. It's Ridiculous. We know this won't go away
greatness has always had great opposition. And we are ready to defend our faith,
and our religious beliefs, now and forever.
Yet another example of "Can leave the church, but can't leave it
alone" (sorry for the cliche).
"Your works are just one aspect of what God will use to make that
judgment."And yet they are one aspect. I am sure you know the
scripture which includes the phrase "after all you can do".To me that is semantics. To you something else. You can have the last word
if you want.
@BCANot semantics. LDS doctrine says we are saved by our mere commitment
to follow Christ at baptism. The final judgment (after a 1000 years
opportunity to decide who you want to be) is merely Christ’s determination
as to where you would be the happiest for all eternity. Your works are just one
aspect of what God will use to make that judgment. He will be merciful as he
considers your intentions, effects of your environment, your personal trials,
your knowledge, your mental capabilities, and your available opportunities to do
good works. It is pointless to even try to judge ourselves or anyone
else. We have only to commit to Christ, have faith in His love and His
all-powerful ability to help us, and to serve Him to the best of our
ability—continually repenting as we go. I do not give the slightest
thought to what kingdom I will inherit. I trust Christ perfectly to judge me
with the utmost mercy and fairness as I strive to be what I know He wants me to
be. Christ want everything for me--for my sake--not His.
Bravo to this judge! We should get him to do a few seminars in America
concerning how to think behind the bench.
Early Saints were persecuted for their beliefs, the Prophet Joseph Smith endured
many cruel acts prior to being murdered. I am so grateful tht my ancestors were
strong in the gospel, and that I have been blessed with my church membership.
My ancestors came to the United States in the 1600's from England. I am
grateful for that heritage.
This is a fantastic ruling for all freedom loving people. This is as much a
freedom of speech issue as it is a religious issue. Whether you love or hate
the LDS church, the Catholics, Buddhists, Environmentalists, or Occupy Wall
Street, you can celebrate the judge's ruling. It is up to the individual,
not government, to determine who you want to align with and believe.
Joseph Smith taught, "Let us here observe, that a religion that does not
require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the
faith necessary unto life and salvation; for, from the first existence of man,
the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be
obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things." In other words, if a
religion doesn't ask you to sacrifice of your time, you talents, your
money, it can not and will not produce the Faith necessary for salvation. I am
thankful for a church that asks me to sacrifice my time, my talents, and my
money. Has we are taught that everything we have is a gift from God, all he asks
is that we return 10% to him. That is not to much to ask.
BrioHe has remained true to his beliefs as well. His beliefs just
differ from those of his family. To leave a man because he changes his mind
regarding his own personal beliefs on god, religion, etc. is just silly. It is
the "believe or else attitude." If his family would embrace his new
beliefs maybe they would actually be able to accept them. Why must one believe
in the same religion as another person in order to love them?
Justice was served. Had this gone forward every church, political party, charity
or any organization that is based on belief would be a target if someone became
disenchanted. The plaintiff has serious problems that don't belong in
Jesus Love U:From what you have written, I can tell that you neither know
nor understand LDS doctrine regarding tithing and salvation, nor can I say that
you understand the Bible from what you have said.Christ fulfilled the Law
of Moses. Tithing is not part of the Law of Moses.Salvation does come
through grace to those who follow Christ. A true follower does his or her best
to obey the commandments. If not, they have no faith and the grace of God has
no place in them. Because of the atonement (I don't like to use the word
grace because of how Calvinism misinterprets it), we can repent and be saved.
Without it, we don't have that opportunity. Basic belief or confesion that
Jesus is the Christ is not sufficient to receive of God's grace. That is
"The LDS do NOT believe that we are saved by our works."This
really just semantics. Where you go is determined by how "well" you
have done. If it isn't that way, what is the difference between the top and
middle tiers of heaven? And why do so many fear they are not "good
enough" to make the Celestial world?
Happy for the ruling. Beliefs do not belong being judged in court. Don't
know how it got that far. It was interesting, though, that the church attorneys
said these things are beliefs and not facts.
A "personal prosecution" -- that must be like Steve Martin's
"citizen divorce" in The Man with Two Brains.
Donn,Again, when you quote an anti LDS website (really any website)
or another author, you should cite your source.That is from Mormon
Coffee and posted was by Sharon Lindbloom who "surrendered her life to the
Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving
as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research
RE: BleedCougarBlueNon-LDS faiths generally say "just believe in Christ, no
obedience of any kind is required"?For it is by grace you have
been saved, through faith—and this is ‘not from yourselves,
‘it is the ‘gift of Go’d— not by works, so that no one
can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good
works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.(Eph 2:8-10) Not
without precedent,In 1904 oseph F. Smith was questioned during the senate
hearings for Mormon senator Reed Smoot. During the three days he was
interrogated, President Smith admitted to several surprising facts including:
the violation of federal laws in the continuation of the practice of polygamy by
Church leaders, years after the Manifesto supposedly discontinued it; President
Smith’s own disregard of both the Manifesto and the law, demonstrated in
his fathering of eleven children by five wives since 1890; and that he, though a
prophet, had not received any revelations up to that point in his life.
@ Jesus Loves U: The Old Testament is not 'null and void.' Many
misunderstand the meaning of Jesus 'fulfilling the law.' Jesus often
quoted from the Old Testament, so your argument about tithing being invalid
since it is in the Old Testament, is flawed. For example 'when tempted by
Satan during His 40 days of fasting in the wilderness (see Matt. 4:1–11),
Jesus responded to the temptations by referring to Old Testament scriptures:
“It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that
proceedeth out of the mouth of God” (see Deut. 8:3); “It is written
again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God” (see Deut. 6:16); and
“For it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only
shalt thou serve” (see Deut. 6:13; Deut. 10:20; Josh. 24:14).'
Jake D,I am guessing it's a slip (deliberate?) of whats to come
(if not already). The Church is generally very private about whom they
excommunicate. If an excommunication is made know, it's usually done by
the one excommunicated. I'd be really surprised if at this juncture,
the Church doesn't excommunicate. After all, this person has caused the
Church to run up some legal expenses. The remaining question is would
Thomas Phillips reveal the action? Or withhold, for some nefarious reason?
After all, the website he supports, is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Personally, I consider him a former member, the paper work simply hasn't
I feel like some of the Christians are approaching this from a 1 level heaven
perspective and the LDS response is coming from a multi-level heaven
perspective. So as a clarifying point... I know for sure that LDS doctrine does
not require tithing in order to make it to SOME level of heaven, but I think the
primary focus is on the celestial kingdom. I know that LDS belief is that some
who aren't living members of the church can make it to the celestial
kingdom so that would also require tithing to not be a pre-condition for that.
However, the part I'm unsure about is that I'm pretty sure that the
celestial kingdom is also divided into several levels and the highest of
those... where does that one stand with regards to tithing/having to be a living
member obtaining the proper temple rites?In other words, is there
any level or sublevel (though sub is an awkward prefix since it'd be the
highest if any) of heaven where failure to pay tithing is an automatic
Actually the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints doesn't require
anyone to give their 10%. NO Bishop walks up to a member and says where is your
10% or check their books to ensure they are giving. In fact, it is all
voluntary to do so. Now some say well I can't go to the Temple if I
don't pay my 10%. That is true but there also 10 other questions that one
must answer as well to obtain a Temple Recommend. The tithing is just one part.
Joseph Smith stated that a religion that doesn't require sacrifice is no
religion at all. As some of posters have stated it is a matter of faith and
sacrifice that tithing is paid. It is misleading and incorrect for anyone to
state the LDS Church requires 10% tithing. It is correct to state that our
Heavenly Father requires it.
As far as the court case goes, good thing it was dismissed. If not, that would
open the flood gates for any church to be sued for donated funds when a member
becomes dissatisfied. The case has no merit, and the judges acted accordingly. I
don't believe in the church either, and donated alot of time and money to
the church for over 30 years - but I did it because I believed it. Now that I
don't, I don't give them money. I would never ask for a refund, nobody
made me do it.
I think that there is a misunderstanding between the LDS people and the non-LDS
people here.The 10% tithing does NOT buy salvation. As the
scriptures all declare, salvation will be given to all men. By salvation, I
mean that you will not have to suffer forever for your sins. That means that
even Hitler is will be saved.Paying what you determine to be a full
tithe is a requirement for entering the Temple. You do not have to enter the
temple to receive salvation. Temple ordinances are needed for exaltation.If you are not LDS want to understand the difference between salvation
and exaltation, please fill out the form on the Church website for some nice
missionaries to come and talk with you.
This lawsuit was doomed to fail from the beginning, no self-respecting judge
could have ruled otherwise. Anyone who was not completely blinded by
Mormon-hate could have seen this coming a mile away. Speaking of
which, I notice there are a fair amount of hysterical comments in the article
over at the Tribune's website.
The Caravan Moves OnAre you talking about mormonthink.com, the
website that brings up real issues and real problems and real contradictions
that exist in the real church using real facts and real sources? Yeah, we
can't have that now can we.
ZenMormonTithing was not invented by god. It is a fabrication in the
minds of men. They used to sacrifice their best animal in the hopes that god
would bless them for it. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't Either
way, all it did was make it so they had 1 less animal. Tithing is the same. God
doesn't need money, man does. You would think that it god was running the
mormon church he would make it so it doesn't need any money from the
members. There are people that pay tithing that don't get blessings, and
some that do. That is why blessings are not tied to tithing. Many great and
influential people who aren't members and don't pay tithing have
prospered on this planet. And many tithe payers have had struggles and bad
things happen. It has nothing to do with tithing.
Sorry “Jesus Love U”, but the Christians of old did not have to pay
tithing because they did MUCH more. They gave EVERYTHING they owned. As related
in Act 2: 32, “And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart
and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he
possessed was his own; but they had all things common.” The
LDS adopted that exact same doctrine of having all things common. But they could
not (or would not) do it. The Law of Tithing came to be as a result of that
failure. The Lord is settling for a tenth of their earnings because the latter
day saints were too selfish to be able to do what the former saints did. But at
least they are willing to make SOME sacrifices.
@Jesus Loves U:I wanted to answer with a commandment from Jesus
himself from the New Testament:Matthew 19:16-31, to summarize, a man
came to Jesus and asked what he could do to inherit eternal life (not salvation,
there is a difference; salvation is for all, eternal life is to live with God).
Jesus then quoted the commandments. He did not say to give them up, but quoted
them. The man then said he had done all that and was told to give up all he
had, not just 10%, but all to the poor.Lest we think that He was
only taking about the rich, in verse 29 and 30 He says that he who gives will
"receive an hundredfold" in this life and the life to come.It sounds like we are to give all we can to the Lord, that 10% is just the
Many of you also fail to know what standing Tom Phillips is in the LDS church.
He has recieved the 2nd Anointing in the temple and had his calling and election
made sure. His salvation was guaranteed at the hands of a "profit" of
god. The LDS church has not can they excommunicate him
@Jesus Loves U The New Testament says a lot more than just that we
can only be saved through Jesus. It also says (Matthew 7:21) that "not every
one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but
he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."I
sincerely fear for anyone who imagines they are saved while yet making little
effort to do God's will. The LDS do NOT believe that we are
saved by our works. Anyone who says that, is lying to you. Rather, The LDS
believe that AFTER we have come unto Christ, we MUST do everything in our power
to do God's will (as Matthew said). If it is God's will that we give
him back a tenth of our God-given earnings, as Christians, we comply with that
His will. The LDS DO NOT believe that complying with God's will
is what makes them eligible to enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Baptism does
that. They simply believe that complying with God's will is an inevitable
and unavoidable behavior of all those who have truly come unto Him.
Jesus rejected money when he said "Give to Caesar the things that are
Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." He wasn't
asking for money or requesting that people would give him anything, but this
organization keeps demanding, besides tithes, more and more money. They say
that it is not "obligatory" to pay it but when they teach that those who
don't pay them their dues are "stealing" or will be
"burned" or will not inherit a place in the kingdom of heaven for not
doing it, then it becomes a controlling effort instigated with fear.
Glad this has been settled. Mr. Phillips is an interesting person though. I read
up on some of his experience in Church leadership and was fascinated by those
experiences and what drove him to this. Very interesting...
I cant imagine the pain this "ex" bishop must be going through that had
him come to the conclusion he needed to sue the church. So much hate has to be
involved when doing something like this. Maybe one day he will have a moment of
clarity and come back to the church. I cant ever imagine leaving the church.
@ SoCalChris:There is more going on in that individuals life than
has been made public. If he had truly felt happy and blessed over the past few
years, his heart and priorities wouldn't have changed so much. There are
other things askew in this individual's life that he is choosing not to
divulge. His current actions are the obvious indicator.Even his wife
of decades and his children think he is in an apparent irretrievable downward
spiral, so have chosen to leave him, while they themselves have remained true to
their spiritual beliefs. @ MoreMan:If you honestly think
Jesus spoke and expounded all and everything important involving His Gospel and
the establishment of His Kingdom here on earth all while hanging on the cross
suffering excruciating pain, then you are sorely mistaken. He verbally spoke
very little during that relatively short time, knowing his earthly work was
nearly completed for a season.Such a statement would indicate you
should dust off those scriptures and do more reading and sincere studying.
Please don't be a More-Earthly-Man. Much is at stake and I wish you well.
Wow, a real live judge with common sense. Any chance we can get him to
immigrate to America? Legally of course.
@JesusLovesU: My interpretation of "cheerful giving" isn't
"give if you feel like it". It is no matter the sacrifice (because for
some, it is a big sacrifice to pay tithes) you give happily,
"cheerfully", and joyfully to bless your life and the lives of others.
Love others as yourself. Service and sacrifice (giving tithes) done begrudgingly
is robbed of some of the essence of the concept. Just ask my 6 year old when I
ask her to go down and get something from the food storage for dinner and she
pounds all the way down stairs because she had to momentarily stop playing to
help me out vs. when she runs to get me a diaper for her baby brother because I
need it immediately and she saved me and the day from a poop fiasco.... :)
Anyway, just my take on Paul's counsel. Have a great day!
Jesus Loves U:I wanted to make one more observation. You had
mentioned the New Testament. Did you know the saints/church members in New
Testament times had a much higher standard? Here are Acts 2:44 and Acts 4:32
respectively:"44 And all that believed were together, and had
all things common;""32 And the multitude of them that
believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought
of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things
common."As others have mentioned, it boils down to giving the
Lord our all. In this light, 10% tithing a very low standard -- but tithing is
still required of us nonetheless.
@JesusLovesU - James 2 teaches that "faith without works is
dead", and tithing is a work that is wrought by faith. I am happy to pay my
tithing because I know that, through this act of faith, I have been blessed by
Heavenly Father for having my needs met, because I certainly couldn't have
done it on my own. Also, we can choose to not pay tithing - just not without
consequence (but every choice we make has consequences). Ergo, Phillips has no
leg to stand on, and trying to prove or disprove religion in a secular court is
I wish some of our judges were half as smart as that British Judge.
I wonder if a Pope has ever been summonsed to court, I mean -- Catholics
have been paying Penance as part of Salvation for thousands of years.
Tithing is a choice. It is optional, not mandatory. No one forced him to do
anything. He chose to pay, why should the church have to be punished because he
made a choice?
@ Jesus Loves U: If and when a person loves God with all his heart
(as you mentioned), then that person would gladly give all he can (in this case,
only 10% is required) toward the building and sustaining of His Kingdom here on
earth.There are financial costs involved with building and
maintaining churches and temples used in teaching, expounding and expanding
God's work here on earth. There are also a number of other peripherals
directly involved with that ongoing and growing work. The concept and principle
is not difficult to understand and accept if your heart is in the right place.
People unwilling to part with any of their worldly goods toward
those ends are clearly demonstrating that temporal things are more important to
them than spiritual things. It's rather easy to see what is most important
to a person by their actions, which then indicates their priorities. If a person is unwilling to voluntarily part with any of their money for a
higher cause, then money is obviously more important and consequently that
person's god, regardless of the words that comes from his/her mouth.
Actions do speak louder than words.
It's incorrect to call Tom Phillips a former member. He is still listed on
the records of the church and hasn't be excommunicated.
Of all the differences between Latter-day Saints and other sects of
Christianity, I have found the single greatest difference (and this
shouldn't surprise any faithful, active LDS member) is the different
beliefs of what salvation requires.Non-LDS faiths generally say
"just believe in Christ, no obedience of any kind is required".While Latter-day Saints say "belief in Christ is definitely required, but
the Lord also demands we do our best to obey Him and His grace will make up what
we lack".Those different ideas could not be more stark in
contrast than night and day.And, in my decades-long study of the
Book of Mormon, I have found that the one doctrine that is hammered over and
over and over again is what Christ requires for our salvation: faith,
repentance, baptism, the reception of the Holy Ghost and endurance to the end.
That may not be popular with 'mainstream' Christianity but that does
not matter; truth is truth, regardless if it's popular or not.This is exactly why the Book of Mormon is necessary: to dispel false beliefs
and clearly show what God requires of us to return and live with him.
This guy needs to stop kicking against the pricks.From what
I've read online he had a happy, blessed life for over 30 years -- until he
decided he had been deceived into that happy, blessed life. Go figure.
The Wraith:I cracks me up that people who don't believe in God
always comment in religious themed threads, and start spouting off that God is
mythical, and doesn't exist. What purpose does it serve you to do so?
You're basically joining the conversation, doing exactly what you are
mocking others of doing.
Jesus Loves U,You're only partially correct in regards to
salvation being a free gift to all. We are promised that we will be all be saved
in regards to physical death. We will all be resurrected, no if ands or buts.
Everyone will be resurrected at some future point in time.However,
salvation from spiritual death, which is our not being in the presence of God,
only comes through faithfully living the laws of the Gospel, and keeping all of
God's commandments. Again those commandments are more then just saying we
love God and our neighbors. We are taught that the grace of Christ
is sufficient for all to be saved, but that we must work to obtain that grace.
It is a lifelong journey in which we are preparing to inherit the Kingdom of
God, and all that He possesses. We work through our entire lives, repenting of
our sins, and doing our best. If we do all we can, then we will be made perfect,
through the Atonement of Christ, and we will be saved from spiritual death, and
receive full salvation in God's Kingdom.
@Jesus Loves UIf you look closely at the Ten Commandments, every one
of them either falls under the category of loving the Lord, or loving your
neighbor. All commandments from God fall under those two categories. Jesus
doesn't say that those are the only commandments, either. Study Matthew
chapter 22 for further detail. Jesus state this: 37 Jesus said unto
him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul,
and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great
commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law
and the prophets.He doesn't say that these are the only two
commandments, but that those are the 2 great commandments. All other of
God's commandments, and His laws are encompassed by those two laws. If we
love the Lord, we pay our tithing. If we love our neighbor, we don't steal
from them.You over simplify the teachings of Christ when you assume
that Loving God implies no more than just saying that you love him. It is much,
much more than that.
@ Delta35 - Saratoga Springs, UT - "I don't want to advertise for him
at all, but everyone should be aware too that Tom Phillips is the managing
editor for the website mormonthink.com. The website often masquerades as a
faith-promoting site encouraging dialogue about Mormon beliefs and history. Mr.
Phillips actions in this case have shown him to be little more than an
embittered and vehement opponent of the Church."Ya know....I got
an e-mail about 2 months ago warning of these kinds of websites; sites in which
it looks like they are friendly towards the Church although they are filled with
spiritual poison, merely designed to sow the seeds of doubt. Gee,
imagine that.....Satan and those who fight truth using lies to try to forward
their 'work'. Thank you for bringing this to my (and our)
attention. Will have to talk to my kids about this site in particular.God bless!
Wow to go from a Bishop and Stake President to this, he must have really been
offended. I wonder what makes someone turn so much? I don't think he is
required to pay the Church's court costs. The church can sue him but I
guess he could sue too in a civil court. I think the church does have to do
more to deal with the key points that are always brought up by antiMormons.
They are starting. I think once they are all just out there they will lose
@ Jesus Loves U - kaysville, UT - "The Requirement of 10% tithing to give to
your Church from its members to receive "salvation" with God the Father
is wrong. I can see Philip's point. It's a Free Gift. Called Grace
from Jesus..Praise Him forever.."You're right: Jesus does
not require our "tithing".However....He DOES require our
obedience. Surely you cannot object to that. Paying tithing is merely one of
the ways we show our obedience to God. God tells His children what to do and
not the other way around. Jesus also said "If you love me, KEEP my
commandments".There isn't any wiggle room there. If you
truly love the Savior you will do your best to do as He asks.You, or
I, could try to argue against Him, but what for?
When Jesus died on the cross did he say "Unless you give me 10%, and
volunteer your free time, you are not getting to the highest levels of
heaven" I doubt it. Only the Mormon church requires that.
Jesus Loves U:Instead of going back and forth on Bible
interpretations and what it meant when Jesus fulfilled the law, it is easier
understand God's will for us through modern day prophets and scripture.Modern day scripture and revelation through the prophet Joseph Smith,
dated July 8, 1838, indicates we are to pay tithing today. It is recorded in
Doctrine & Covenants (D&C) section 119. Here are the scriptures"3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. 4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all
their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for
my holy priesthood, saith the Lord."Other modern day prophets
have clarified the phrase "one-tenth of all their interest annually"
refers to our 10% of our income, which is also synonymous with 10% of our
"increase."The section heading in D&C 119 has more
background and context for what prompted the revelation on tithing in modern
@Jesus Loves U: Part of loving the Lord with all our heart, might, mind and
strength means devoting everything we have to Him. If He is asking us to
contribute to His church, we have an obligation to do so. I have noticed that
when I do not pay tithing, I feel guilty. Tithing has been instituted in many
different forms, but it is always the same: 100 percent of what you have is the
Lord's. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to
God the things that are God's." Tithing is the Lord's. When we
do not give it unto Him, we have robbed Him and ourselves. The Lord is waiting
to bless us, but so many blessings hinge upon obedience to the commandments.
You cannot say you love the Lord with all your heart if you have not committed
100 percent of yourself to Him.
Confusing reporting was it heard in the Magistrates Court or the District Court?
Two different things. The Church is very unlikely to get it's defense costs
back if this was brought as a criminal rather than a civil case. Thid Barker -
costs are up to the judge, not everyone who wins a civil case gets their costs
paid by the other side. Area Reader - If Phillips argued that there was a case
to answer and not enough counter argument was provided then the Magistrate is
compelled to issue the summons. Its' all about how the matter is argued,
where it is argued and how good the 'lawyer' is. Don't forget
that the confusion allows for more days in court and lawyers to make more
money!!! Keeps people in jobs and off the streets!!!! (excuse the cynicism
directed at my (the English and Welsh) legal system. The church won in the end.
We are not forced to pay tithing to the church. We are asked to sacrifice so
that other people may be blessed.
Tithing was in the OT, not the NT. Paul teaches us that we are supposed to be
"cheerful givers". Not a requirement for Salvation to be with God the
Father. God will not punish us because we don't give a 10% cut to Him. He
loves us. It's all about the heart. It changed through Christ. His
commandments are to Love the Lord with All our Heart, mind and strength and
second to the Love others. It changed through Christ. Thank you Jesus for your
Grace, the Free Gift of Salvation through our belief in Him.
I don't want to advertise for him at all, but everyone should be aware too
that Tom Phillips is the managing editor for the website mormonthink.com. The
website often masquerades as a faith-promoting site encouraging dialogue about
Mormon beliefs and history. Mr. Phillips actions in this case have shown him to
be little more than an embittered and vehement opponent of the Church.
>>The Requirement of 10% tithing to give to your Church from its members
to receive "salvation" with God the Father is wrong.That's a misunderstanding of what tithing is. Of course we can't
"buy" salvation by paying tithing. The purpose of tithing is, among
others, to foster Christlike traits of sacrifice and gratitude to God since
everything we have comes from Him anyway. It's all His to begin with; as
Elder Maxwell once said, you might as well be writing "return to Sender"
on the tithing envelope.He gave us everything including His life so
we could be saved; how ungrateful we would be if we refuse to give up even a
small portion of the material goods we can't take with us into the next
life anyway.Malachi 3:8-12.
I agree with the judge's ruling. You can't have the Prophet running
all over the world defending law suits. However, it would have been very
interesting, maybe inspiring, to hear President Monson's testimony on the
Tithing is not one of the commandments. Jesus fulfilled "All the Laws",
He is the Law now for us and His commandments now are to Love the Lord First and
everything and everyone second. It's that easy. Paul teaches us to be
"cheerful givers now". The requirement for paying to receive salvation
with God is not there and never will be.
@Jesus Loves UTithing is a biblical principle. Malachi chapter 3.
@Jesus Loves U Tithing is requirement of the Lord's, not mans.
Tithing has been made since Recorded in Genesis when Abraham paid Tithing to
Melchizedek. see Gen. 14:18–20. It was also in the Law of Moses Deut.
14:22, 28. Make sure you read: Mal. 3:8–11.
Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments". Tithing is one of
them. Its a gift of love. Praise Him forever!
@ Thid -- We do have such a system (at least in civil cases). In your state,
see Idaho Code Section 12-121.
The Requirement of 10% tithing to give to your Church from its members to
receive "salvation" with God the Father is wrong. I can see
Philip's point. It's a Free Gift. Called Grace from Jesus..Praise Him
This won't go away. Philipps had proof to show the reasons behind the case.
There were many devoted LDS who left the faith because of the calculated
misrepresentations that the LDS church gives to lure people in believing their
faith. Ultimately, there is a "requirement" to be able to be saved in
the LDS Church and that is pay up your 10% to the LDS church or you can't
go the the LDS temple and be "saved" with God the Father. In any other
Christian church this is not a requirement. Jesus gives us His free gift of
Grace through our belief in His work on the Cross not our works. It's
Faith, not money.
Tom Phillips got his 15 minutes on the stage. So did Sherem.
Sanity.And I would have the same opinion had this been another
Now its time for Mr Phillips to put his money where his mouth is and pay for all
the costs of this legal actionBut of course he will claim that the
church is being vindictive towards him when he is required to pay the costs. He
will say that he is obviously being victimized. But if he is not
required to pay then that will an open door invitation to anyone and everyone
who wants to take unfounded legal action against the church without any personal
cost to themselves.
There's really no other decision a court could have made so this is no
surprise. What was a surprise is that the first judge opened herself to ridicule
by her colleagues and the international press by issuing the summons in the
I understand that in England, if you bring a frivolous lawsuit and lose in the
courts, the plaintiff, not the defendant, must pay court costs and attorney
fees! We should have that system in America.
So proud of the Judge for seeing the truth! Heavenly Father will not let his