Comments about ‘British judge hears arguments in case LDS Church calls 'mischief'’

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Published: Friday, March 14 2014 3:20 p.m. MDT

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John Pack Lambert of Michigan
Ypsilanti, MI

Many writers have pointed out that representations can have multiple meanings.

On the issue of tithing. None of these attacks address tithing at all. None of the attacks relate in any clear way to tithing.

This is just a naked attempt by the self-serving apostates involved to get more publicity, and has no relevance to law at all. This is the most disturbing misuse of legal procedures I have seen in a long time, and a text-book case of using the law to persecute others.

Twin Lights
Louisville, KY


I agree. Nuns do great work. But I did not realize you were Catholic.

As to paradise. Are you saying the thief went to the Garden of Eden?

I searched a few non-LDS christian sites. There is a bit of variance on what paradise consists of.

Cleveland , OH

Archeology and translation of documents from the middle east ("Bible Lands") are agreed upon by Catholics, Christians, Jews and Atheists who have training in the respective languages and disciplines.

All the Mormon Church has to do is find some respected non-Mormon archeologists and linguists who agree with the Church position on the Book of Abraham. If it is a real translation, then it isn't a matter of faith, the historicity of the text can be confirmed by study.

The same can be said of the Book of Mormon. Either it is a historical text that can be confirmed by scholars regardless of their religious views or it isn't.

Producing a handful of respected experts to settle the matter in a British court should be a slam dunk win for the Church.

Lehi, UT

It's sad AND bizarre that someone would be hateful enough to try to distract Pres. Monson from serving and making the world a better place. I'm sure Thomas doesn't have a chance, unless the Judge or Magistrate is incredibly anti-mormon, but he (Thomas, reportedly a founder of an anti-mormon group that actually pretends NOT to be antagonistic...and many of them leave their names on record, perhaps so they can claim to be members, or Brothers & Sisters or??) might think that he has a chance if he sticks with trying to bully President Monson, since Pres. Monson spends his time serving and not worrying about the silliness that is anti-mormonism.

Salt Lake City, UT

if he felt that the teachings of the church were wrong - no one forced him to pay tything. No one forced him to except the calling as stake president. He could have not paid tything and then he propably never would have been called to be stake president.

It could be that his suing the church is his way of getting money for his time, effort and the tything that he gave the church.

Weber State Graduate
Clearfield, UT

"new research by Egyptologists shows that Joseph Smith's translation of the facsimiles that are depicted in the Book of Abraham was also correct."

Fact: Absolutely no non-Mormon Egyptologists agree or ever have agreed with Joseph Smith’s interpretations of the existing papyri or facsimiles, nor do they agree with any LDS apologists' reasoning.

Dr. Robert Ritner, Professor of Egyptology at the University of Chicago, is probably the most prominent Egyptologist to have ever examined the BOA papyri in depth. And every single non-LDS Egyptologist that has ever examined the papyri or facsimiles since 1856 has essentially come to the same agreement with the basic translations of Professor Ritner.

Professor Ritner is not a critic of the church...he is a scholar. He has this, however, to say about LDS apologists Michael Rhodes and John Gee's attempts to defend the existing papyri and facsimile interpretations:

"Such interpretations are uninspired fantasies and are defended only with the forfeiture of scholarly judgment and credibility."

Kearns, UT

Charlie 8, "many consider this extortion". Yea, and so what? You don't have to play ball if you don't want to. Tithing, last I looked was voluntary. I want to stay in God's good graces so I pay, happily I might add. I have received some tangible blessings as a result of paying tithing. Obviously, you haven't read Malachai in a while. I believe tithing is talked about there in Chapter 3. There are other places in the Old and New Testament that mention it.

Frankly, I don't care what other churches teach or say. They can believe what I want and I'll believe what I want and we'll see in the after live who was right.

Southpark says it is the Mormons. Mr. Bean says it is the Jews.

Kearns, UT

Oh by the way all you nay-sayers. Remember what happened to Korihor. I agree with MormonUte.

reno, NV


Nice to see that the 'believe or else' mentality is alive and well.

Houston, TX

I am surprised that people are impressed because the plaintiff was once a Stake President. I'm sure most Stake Presidents recognize their own shortcomings and weaknesses. When faith fades, so does much of the spiritual knowledge that once was precious.

I do not think that Judas was a credible witness in his last days.

layton, UT

Twin lights, (Abraham 1:16) my name is *Jehovah…=poor KJV translation(s/b YHWH). See Tetagrammaton.
Jer. 16:21…my name is The LORD*(YHWH).Isaiah 43:3… I am the LORD(YHWH) your God=(elohim).

Joseph Smith said,“Eloheim is from the word Eloi, God is singular number; and by adding the word heim ,it renders it Gods.” ( H of C, 1844),Wrong.

In Hebrew the form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, which normally indicates a masculine plural, however with Elohim the construction is usually grammatically SINGULAR, (i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective) when referring to the Hebrew God, but grammatically plural (i.e. taking a plural verb or adjective) when used of pagan divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7).#430 Strong’s Hebrew concordance translates Elohim to God in the (KJV)

Abraham 3:26=(Jude 1:6 KJV) …kept not their first estate= (*achre, Grk 746) but left their own habitation,….*first place, rule, authority, Poor KJV translation, i.e…

(Jude 1:6 NIV) “… did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home…”. Fallen angels(devils) Nothing to do with Ante-mortal being.

Twin Lights
Louisville, KY


I am aware of all of this. I think you you (likely) know the LDS responses.

I was just asking a simple question about your prior post on the thief and what you think it means for him to go to paradise. I noted that there is some variance on this subject in non-LDS Christian sites on the web.

Just looking for that one answer.

Greeley, CO

It is amusing that those who do not believe spend so much of their time researching the church.

Houston, TX

@DocHolliday: "... those who don't believe spend more time researching facts ..."

I think it could more accurately be described as "researching allegations from limited facts." Spiritual things cannot be examined accurately physical tools. Your spirit has to experience it. It is like trying to determine flavor using the sense of touch.

I take every chance to examine the facts about the restored gospel, but I don't ignore chances to "taste" it for myself on a daily basis.

Louisville, KY

The reality of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is learned via the spiritual and in the trenches serving.

Otherwise, the "facts" can become sterile and meaningless.

reno, NV


I tasted it for many years... it isn't real. It is in the minds of those who believe it.


You are right. The facts are meaningless if you ignore them. And ignoring them is the only way one could continue to believe in it after discovering these 'facts'.

Louisville, KY


I am no historian, but I am fairly familiar with the "facts" that get slung around on this and other LDS related boards. Further, I was not raised in the church so I came at the gospel with a critical eye.

There are good answers for most (though not necessarily all) of the issues raised. I assume you are familiar with Fair Mormon.

In the end, the Holy Ghost is something I can't ignore. Again, the power of the gospel is found in prayer and in service.

Pullman, WA

Ordinarily people might think funds that go to tithing end up in the leaders pockets, but Tom knows pockets are not padded by contributions to tithing and other funds. The LDS are unique that way. Tom is just looking to hurt the church any way he can. What he will discover is that he is adding another life to the incredible MORMON MOMENT that has been thriving since before the election and before the BofM Musical. Members will think him and he will become a sad, bitter man.

The Church does not require obedience to tithing. I know of several people who are happy to be members but who do not pay tithing. They can still attend weekly Sunday services and do all of the same things allowed in any other denomination in the world. But the temple is a different place than any other religion has access to. It requires a higher standard if the person wants admittance. That is just another reason tithing is voluntary.


The reality of the gospel of (insert anything here) is learned via the spiritual and in the trenches serving.

The world is full of people who believe in (insert the name of any religion, Christian or not, here) with all their heart. It seems incredibly naive and shallow for people here to think they are the only ones with a monopoly on the truth. The lack of humility is astonishing.

Louisville, KY


I never said we had a monopoly on truth. But having been raised in another religion, I did not find therein the spiritual power present here.

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