Comments about ‘British judge hears arguments in case LDS Church calls 'mischief'’

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Published: Friday, March 14 2014 10:49 p.m. MDT

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Brahmabull
sandy, ut

genbug47

It isn't a court case against god, it is a court case against the Mormon church.

I don't believe the theology the Mormons teach, but I used to. At the time I decided to give my money to them. Now that I know it isn't true, I don't give them my money anymore. This is a ridiculous lawsuit - if you can sue the Mormon church for fraud then you could sue every church for the same thing. No church can prove that it is true, and I don't believe that any of them are. But people believe they are and therefore give their money.

procuradorfiscal

By the way - there is no credible explanation for the disconnect in the book of Abraham and the papyrus. Most of the time, the most simple explanation is the most plausible. In this case the most simple explanation in the disconnect is that the papyrus has nothing to do with the book of Abraham. It isn't his book, and it isn't scripture.

Twin Lights
Louisville, KY

The Pope is understood by Catholics to be The Vicar of Christ and to be infallible regarding doctrine/teachings. Will the next step be taking the Pope to court (after all, some of those changes in Vatican II still don't sit well with some)? Of course he has diplomatic immunity as the head of Vatican City.

A criminal case against the Queen of England would be interesting. As the sovereign of England and the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, she would essentially be prosecuting herself. I suppose she could let the case proceed and then claim sovereign immunity.

I would guess that there are a lot of philosophers that might take a drubbing from the courts as well.

Twin Lights
Louisville, KY

To those who think that the top leadership of the church are disingenuous. Please think about what most do prior becoming apostles.

They give 15-20 hours (maybe more) weekly to the church for free as Bishops, Stake Presidents, etc. They do this all at their own expense and with NO clear path toward ever making the leap to become a general authority.

If they do become general authorities, they then travel constantly and their time is hardly their own. Then, and only then - after years of sacrifice, a very few of them will become apostles. Then, they travel more.

Note that most had careers prior to becoming general authorities that were very lucrative. Most would have done much better by just having stayed in their chosen careers and then retired in ease. As it is, most of them will work in the church they love until they die.

If you believe the gospel of not true, fine. But understand that these men believe it to be true. Their actions make zero sense otherwise.

Laura Arroyo
Salt Lake City, UT

To DoloresCruz1982,

Well, yes, the labels are wrong...but it would also be pertinent to note that it would have been considered "uncouth" to suggest that Abraham was getting the priesthood from a female in the 1800s. Still is. Therefore...Pharaoh, and Prince of Pharaoh must be male...despite...uh, other indicators.

Brahmabull
sandy, ut

1.96 Standard Deviations

Why would one assume that if %15 of the papyrus has nothing to do with the book of Abraham, then the other %85 does have relevance to it? That makes no sense. Odds are if %15 of the papyrus have nothing to do with the book of Abraham then the rest doesn't either. The book of Abraham is nothing more then an extension of the book of Mormon - which quotes the bible and adds in a few things here and there... It isn't scripture.

Pops
NORTH SALT LAKE, UT

@Brahmabull

I don't think you looked deeply enough into the issue. One of the missing artifacts is a complete and separate roll of papyrus, not a piece of the fragments that remain. What's left has never been thought to be any part of what became the Book of Abraham except in the minds of critics.

procuradorfiscal
Tooele, UT

Re: ". . . there is no credible explanation for the disconnect in the book of Abraham and the papyrus."

Saying it don't make it so.

The statement simply ignores or dismisses the research and ruminations of a number of scholars and apologists, including Gee, Hauglid, Brown, Muhlestein, Rhodes, Smoot, Tvedtnes and others.

It is intended to suggest that we poor, benighted Mormons steadfastly and unjustifiably reject some universally-accepted consensus or "proof" that the Book of Abraham and the Prophet Joseph are demonstrably fraudulent.

In reality, though, it's such anti-Mormon assertions that constitute the actual fraud.

While it's clear that the facsimiles appended to the Book of Abraham as illustrations, primarily by W.W. Phelps, are very similar to other known instances of the Book of the Dead and the Document of Breathings made by Isis, it is not at all clear that they have any relation or relevance to the text of the Book of Abraham.

The validity of the Book of Abraham remains as much a matter of faith to Mormons as does "M" Theory to physicists [some of whom are also be Mormons].

Alfred
Phoenix, AZ

@Average Human Being:
"If the church is found guilty, it could have a huge impact on the church financially and regionally..."

It would also have a huge impact on the Church of England which is the country's national religion.

@runnerguy50:
"I think every group that is non profit should have to open their books for public scrutiny."

So, when will you be opening your books?

@2close2call:
"I believe they know that the several items mentioned in the lawsuit are not true like the book of Abraham was not translated from Egyptian funerary texts..."

How can they know that? They weren't there when it was written. If the plaintiff wants to sue someone he should go after the author... who is dead.

@Kalindra:
"The guy bringing the case is pursuing the LDS Church as a corporation, not a religion."

The LDS Church is a religion, not a corporation. The Corporate entity is the first presidency which limits personal liability... just like any corporate business.

"He claims Mormon missionaries are 'salesmen' knowingly selling a fraudulent product."

Missionaries can't be salesmen... they're self supporting receiving no pay or benefits from the Church.

Neanderthal
Phoenix, AZ

@lindasdf:
"Many consider this extortion."

How can it be considered extortion when no one is required to do any of it?

@Twin Lights:
I suppose she could let the case proceed and then claim sovereign immunity."

She could also put plaintiff in the Tower of London and have an executioner, perhaps a descendent of the executioner that dispatched Queen Mary, have at him.

Brahmabull
"Why would one assume that if %15 of the papyrus has nothing to do with the book of Abraham, then the other %85 does have relevance to it? That makes no sense. Odds are if %15 of the papyrus have nothing to do with the book of Abraham then the rest doesn't either. The book of Abraham is nothing more then an extension of the book of Mormon - which quotes the bible and adds in a few things here and there... It isn't scripture."

Ar you kidding? The mummy was Abraham, himself. Prove otherwise. 4 standard deviations.

If you wanna take issue with scripture do it to the Old Testament.

ClarkHippo
Tooele, UT

@DoloresCruz1982

Kerry Muelestein is a professor of ancient scripture at BYU, as well as an Egyptologist. There are a series of YouTube videos in which Professor Muelenstein gives clear, reasoned answers concerning the Book of Abraham. They can be found on the FAIR Mormon YouTube channel and each video is only a few minutes long. One specific video I would point is entitled, "The Three Facsimiles Translated Wrong? Book of Abraham Challenge 3"

No doubt some people will say, "Well he works at BYU so he's biased." To which I say, okay, so if he's biased you can watch the videos and easily find the holes in his arguments, correct?

@Brahmabull

Your explanation about the Book of Mormon sounds almost as if you have never read it. Yes, there are many scriptures from Isiah and Matthew which are also found in the Book of Mormon, but to dismiss the remainder of the Book of Mormon is to dismiss a whole lot of amazing, wonderful words. Here are just a few examples - 2nd Nephi 4, 31, 33; Jacob 2 and 3; Enos; Mosiah 2-4 Alma 32 and 34. Ether 12.

Charlie8
Albany, NY

To Twin Lights, Re: "A criminal case against the Queen of England would be interesting". Why do people try to compare this case to prosecuting the Queen or suing the Anglican Church. The Church of England (CofE) does not require it's communicants to believe in a virgin birth or literal resurrection (Bishop of Durham-David Jenkins) to enter the "Celestial Kingdom" and any baptized Christian from any church can go to the CofE alter for communion (sacrament) "It is the LORD"S table and not our own". No one is required to give 10% of their gross income in the CofE to receive ordinance for entrance into Kingdom of heaven, thus no fraud for money.

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

@Cats;

You have completely bought the bridge.

Brahmabull
sandy, ut

Pops

So let me recap... The book of Abraham scrolls are missing... The golden plates from which the book of Mormon was translated are missing. Do you see a trend here? It is too convenient that both items that could prove authenticity are... missing.

Clark hippo

I have read the book of Mormon over 10 times... it reads like 19th century, not like 600 b.c. writings. There is a reason for that - it wasn't translated, it was written.

Wastintime
Los Angeles, CA

Why have only 51 posts on this subject made it throughout the moderators?

If you want some real perspective on this issue, I suggest you investigate "Studies of the Book of Mormon", written by LDS General Authority B.H. Roberts (1857–1933) at the beginning of the 20th century, which concerns the validity of the Book of Mormon.

donn
layton, UT

@Twin Lights, “most of them will work in the church they love until they die.” True,
Catholic "nuns",1 Cor 7:34, "...an unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world — how she can please her husband." They serve the Lord.

i.e… Some Nuns the dedicate their lives to caring for the sick, poor. During the Vietnam war they were running orphanages in villages and feeding the poor and in harms way. In NKP Thailand 1970 they came through our perimeter(AF infantry) to feed the starving Laotian Montagnards.

@,It stands or falls on, Joseph Smith taught that the thief on the cross was to be with Jesus Christ "in the world of spirits" (he did not say paradise or heaven). Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Wrong,
"Today shalt thou be with me in “*paradise”. (Luke 23:43 NIV, NET)i.e...
The LORD(YHWH) God planted a garden(paradeisos, G# 3857) eastward in Eden;(Gen 2:8 LXX). … God walking in the garden (paradeisos,...(Gen 3:8 LXX)..

1.96 Standard Deviations
OREM, UT

DoloresCruz1982:

Who told you this? You've missed out on a lot of research! Joseph Smith nailed so many bulls-eyes when it came to the translation -- especially the facsimiles.

Do a Youtube search for "The Three Facsimile Translations Wrong? Book of Abraham Challenge 3." It should be the first result and the clip is 5 minutes 23 seconds long. The video was published on April 2, 2013. I just wanted to post this to re-confirm what ClarkHippo said.

Watch it and be amazed!

Brahmabull:

It makes no sense to make this assumption. You essentially said, "Since 15% isn't the Book of Abraham, the other 85% isn't either." What? Very poor logic. I would have expected a lot better argument from you.

Witnesses and Joseph Smith indicate the Book of Abraham came from the longer of the scrolls -- which scroll was eventually destroyed in the Chicago fire. It makes no sense to say the Book of Abraham is a sham since the other 15% of fragments discovered were not the Book of Abraham. You're talking oranges and apples. The Book of Abraham was on the other 85%!

Critics always omit this -- they love to twist the truth and deceive.

MormonUte
Centerville, UT

It is interesting to read these comments. I have read the Book of Mormon over 30 times. It has completely transformed my life. Spiritual things are discerned spiritually, and God provides evidence when and how he sees fit. What if this lawsuit had occurred in say 1850, when Joseph Smith had claimed that tobacco was not good for the body? Today we all know the dangers of tobacco. Joseph Smith knew that in 1833. If they had successfully sued the Church in 1850 would they have had to pay them back over 100 years later when science confirmed what the Church already knew? Someday we will all have the answers, probably not in this life. If the gold plates and the Egyptian papyri were both on display at the Church History Museum, do you really think that would change people's minds? I don't. We all have to come to the Lord on his terms, not our own. He is no respecter of persons.

bj-hp
Maryville, MO

MormonUte you are absolutely correct. Even if Jesus Christ came down to many of the critics and told them that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only true and living Church upon the Earth, that the Book of Mormon is True, that Joseph Smith is a prophet the same individuals would deny it because they would ultimately deny the Christ himself.

The problem with this is that the Lord, Jesus Christ, has said this through his modern day prophets and through the revelations given to them. As many know apostates are the largest, most vocal group against the Church as has been cited in the scriptures over and over again.

Laman and Lemuel saw and heard an angel yet they fell away. Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris all state they saw and angel and handled the gold plates yet all three fell away saying Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet. Yet in the end Oliver and Martin would return and die in full fellowship of the Church. David would die but even on his death bed never deny his testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

John Pack Lambert of Michigan
Ypsilanti, MI

This is a horrible case and hopefully will get rejected very soon. It violates all aspects of freedom.

The oddest part is the connection between the doctrines and tithing is so weak that the claim of fraud would never hold up.

John Pack Lambert of Michigan
Ypsilanti, MI

Reputable Egyptologists will point out that we do not know what text Joseph Smith was translating from, and that most of the papyri was destroyed. Before we get to that point, one would have to demonstrate an actual connection between belief in the Book of Abraham and paying tithing.

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