Comments about ‘British judge hears arguments in case LDS Church calls 'mischief'’

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Published: Friday, March 14 2014 10:49 p.m. MDT

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Just trying
Webster, UT

I can't wait to read the transcripts. Six and a half hours is a long time.

Average Human Being
west jordan, UT

Who is calling this case "bizarre"? This is actually a very serious case. If the church is found guilty, it could have a huge impact on the church financially and regionally on how they operate in England. If I was the church, I would certainly put forth my best efforts to try and defend this case instead of just writing it off as "bizarre" and "mischief".

tommy1
slc, UT

Is this the fraud case?

slcdenizen
t-ville, UT

This case should be dismissed forthwith. To require the head of an organization to confront the public legal system regarding the sale of an alleged non-existent product is absurd. If there is anything society should protect and cherish, it's an individual's right and obligation to part with their possessions in the noble cause of furnishing a palace in the afterlife and pleasing a jealous deity. For our courts to deny an individual of that right, whether it be directed at the FSM, yahweh, or Thor, is simply unbecoming of a pluralistic society in which all of us want to live.

SamL
Stansbury Park, UT

Seems to me, if this case were to prevail, the Queen of England would be subject to the same guilt as well. After all the Anglican Church collects funds from its parishioners based on its theological doctrine. And the Queen is the current head of the Anglican Church. 'Tis truly bizarre mischief.

Just trying
Webster, UT

Hi Tommy1,

Yes it is the fraud case. It went on for over six hours today. The Church had six lawyers representing them in court. The court will eventually release a transcript. I want to see how what is being reported on blogs compares with the official transcript. A decision will be released by the court next Thursday if this continues.

genbug47
Hamilton, MT

God never loses. And this will come out for the good of the Church in some way and will be a great learning experience for those that care. For those "disaffected" folks, it's all right, freedom of speech is in the constitution. Poor guy, he really has a burr in his saddle though.

lindasdf
Columbus, OH

Average Human Being, you are right, but it would not be in a good way. If one can successfully sue one church for fraud, it opens the flood gates for everyone to sue a church for fraud, and that would not be good.
Of course, it could, in England, end state-sponsered religion. I mean, if someone sued he Church of England, it could sent Her Majesty to jail, as she IS the "defender of the Faith" is she not?

runnerguy50
Virginia Beach, Va

I think every group that is non profit should have to open their books for public scrutiny.

ThinksIThink
SEATTLE, WA

Even if the case proceeds, the Church simply puts a reputable Egyptologist on the stand to attest to the fact that the Book of Abraham was translated from the Egyptian papyri - and case closed with respect to that allegation. And so forth through each factual allegation.

sunstoned
Payson, UT

No reputable Egyptologist would take the stand and purger himself/herself by stating that the Book of Abraham is a translation from the Egyptian papyri. It is common knowledge that the papyri is a common Egyptian text, often called the book of the dead. Smith's "translation" was not even close. Even the church acknowledges

K
Mchenry, IL

Would be lovely if the article actually stated what he was suing about? Not just whom and whether they had anything to say about the matter? Did the author attempt to get a statement from the man bringing the suit?

2close2call
Los Angeles, CA

To be honest, I agree with this criminal suit. I think the LDS church and specifically the top 15 are guilty of fraud! I believe they know that the several items mentioned in the lawsuit are not true like the book of Abraham was not translated from Egyptian funerary texts, yet, they lie by omission by not being open and honest to all Mormons about it!

Ernest T. Bass
Bountiful, UT

Ultimately truth will prevail.
Unfortunately for most people around here, they don't understand that belief and truth are two very different things.
It may take a while, but truth will prevail.

Kalindra
Salt Lake City, Utah

The case in question is actually a criminal case, not a civil case. The guy bringing the case is pursuing the LDS Church as a corporation, not a religion. He claims Mirmon missionaries are "salesmen" knowingly selling a fraudulent product. The seven claims of fraud made in the summons are:

First, that the Book of Abraham is a literal translation of Egyptian papyri by Joseph Smith.
Second, the Book of Mormon was translated from ancient gold plates by Joseph Smith and is the most correct book on earth and is an ancient historical record.
Third, that native Americans are descended from an Israelite family which left Jerusalem in 600 B.C.
Four, Joseph and Hyrum Smith were killed as martyrs in 1844 because they would not deny their testimony of the Book of Mormon.
Five, the Illinois newspaper called Nauvoo Expositor had to be destroyed because it printed lies about Joseph Smith.
Six, there was no death on this planet prior to 6,000 years ago.
Seven, all humans alive today are descended from just two people who lived approximately 6,000 years ago.

procuradorfiscal
Tooele, UT

Re: "No reputable Egyptologist would take the stand and purger [sic] himself . . . ."

Just so's you know, ThinksIThinks post was pure snark, not actually intended as a serious suggestion.

Like your post, it's an attempt to disingenuously suggest that there is some unanimity among people with a brain that the Book of Abraham's provenance is somehow suspect.

That's not true, of course. Scholars and knowledgeable apologists have advanced several plausible theories explaining an honest disconnect between Book of Abraham comments and that tiny surviving fraction of a much larger collection of papyri that was available to the Prophet.

But closed minds refuse to consider anything that threatens a favored, forgone conclusion.

Give Me A Break
Pullman, WA

This is bizarre in the extreme. It is a quarrel about whether a church leader believes in his cause or not. Of course he believes in it. Case closed. No one can prove anything contrary. All he has to do is show his own tithing receipts. Bam! Done! And what a mistake to put standard beliefs of other Christian faiths into the indictment against a single religion.
As for the Book of Abraham, I am still waiting for the other 30 feet of the scroll to be discovered.Until then everything is arguable. That is ALWAYS the case with the disaffected and the dissident. They NEVER close the door of possibility for faith. They can't. They should first doubt their doubts.

RMartin
UK, 00

The case is "bizarre" for a number of legal reasons. The case was brought to the judge by a private citizen who has no right of audience to a judge (i.e. he was not a lawyer). Also, to sue somebody because you don't agree with their beliefs would be, in effect, trying to get the law to decide what is true. Also, this is not actually a "civil" case - a lawyer can ask a judge to summon an individual if someone can show they have committed a crime. However, if there was a crime committed then it should be investigated by the police. In this case the police have had no involvement. The complainant is, therefore, seeking to by-pass due legal process in order to satisfy a personal grudge using obscure and rarely used legal proceedings.

Pops
NORTH SALT LAKE, UT

Of course no reputable egyptologist would take the stand to defend the Book of Abraham, but not for the reason given by those who wish to discredit Joseph Smith with partial truths. The actual reason is that the papyrus from which it was said to have been translated was destroyed in a fire.

Calumny: an untrue statement that is made to damage someone's reputation.

The case is absurd and should be tossed, but given that we live in the post-rational age who knows what will happen.

Cats
Somewhere in Time, UT

Dear Sunstoned:

the common mistake that detractors of the Book of Abraham make is to promote the false notion that the book was taken from the papyri that surfaced at the museum in New York a few years back. IT WAS NOT. The Book of Abraham was translated from a much larger (at least 40 feet long) papyri that was later lost in the Chicago fire. THIS IS AN INDISPUTABLE FACT!

BTW, new research by Egyptologists shows that Joseph Smith's translation of the facsimiles that are depicted in the Book of Abraham was also correct. That is also a fact and there are respected Egyptologist who will support that. John Gee is a Yale-educated Egyptologist who proclaims this.

There are new discoveries almost daily and you really need to get up on the latest research.

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