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Newly released reports provide clues and details, but few answers

Published: Thursday, March 13 2014 6:57 p.m. MDT

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Ann Blake Tracy
Logandale, NV

How many of these does Utah have to see before they wake up? Murder-sucide = antidepressant use. That is what you will find spelled out in prescribing information for these drugs. (You may have to read to page 42 to find it though!) Kyler's best friend and now her fiance have both stated she was taking drugs for depression. The FDA states that any abrupt change in dose of an antidepressant, whether the dose is increased or decreased, can cause suicide, hostility or psychosis. A mother killing her two daughters and herself would involve all of those. And her fiance states here that they were regularly "adjusting" her medication.

The why seems a simple deduction when you read between the lines. Now we await the toxicology report for additional confirmation.

So is anyone asking yet what Officer Boren might have been taking to cope with his failing marriage?

Cougsndawgs
West Point , UT

Ann Blake:
I personally have worked with the depressed and mentally ill population and it would be difficult to quantify how many lives antidepressant medications have saved. While some of what you say is true, it doesn't address the whole picture. The reason risk of suicide increases when someone starts antidepressants or changes to a new medication is that it increases the individuals energy level much sooner than it increases their serotonin and norepinephrine levels to help cope with depression. So they have more energy but are still depressed. This is when friends and family need to be on highest alert, but the serotonin and norep levels soon catch up and therapeutic levels can be maintained.

Not everyone requires an antidepressant and I agree that they are probably overused, but they do help and I've seen example after example of that personally. For someone that is severely and clinically depressed what's the alternative? Take nothing and hope it works out? I've seen how that goes also and it's tragic.

This story saddens me and is certainly a tragedy. I hope the family and people involved can find some measure of peace.

louie
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Guns are necessary to protect us and our families right?

Shimlau
SAINT GEORGE, UT

louie; to blame the gun is crazy. the gun didn't pick itself up and shoot the three people. If she had used a kitchen knife (butcher knife) to do this would you be saying ban the knives? Now, I'm not sure if that's where your comment was heading, and if not, I apologize, but it sure seems that it's so. This is indeed a tragedy and I feel for the families of all involved and as the other 2 comments mentioned, and the article also, something should have been done about her medications. Especially if she could go so ape while in an argument with her boyfriend.

Rustymommy
Clovis, NM

When somebody has a plan for how they would commit suicide, that is usually not a good sign. This woman sounds like she was disturbed for a long time. Sad she didn't get intervention.

airnaut
Everett, 00

The tragic details of the double murder-suicide and the woman's seemingly increased erratic behavior in the days just prior are detailed in newly released police reports obtained by the Deseret News through a public records request.

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Cougsndawgs
West Point , UT

Ann Blake:
I personally have worked with the depressed and mentally ill population and it would be difficult to quantify how many lives antidepressant medications have saved.

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Although saving 97% is good,
making 3% go crazy like this and kill is NOT acceptable.

I was one of those 3%.

I was lucky -- I never killed anyone.
I also STOPPED taking those pills, and got my life back!

Thank to God, and not the Pharmaceutical Industry and their pill pushing lemmings.

Anonyme
Orem, UT

Ann Blake Tracy said, “The FDA states that any abrupt change in dose of an antidepressant . . . can cause suicide, hostility or psychosis.” There is NO mention of the word “psychosis” in prescribing information. It does say that hostility has been reported in patients being treated with antidepressants, but there is NO assertion of the medication as the cause of those symptoms. Do you have a citation for your claim?

At any rate, does this mean you believe what the FDA says? Because the FDA also says this: “Studies did not show an increase in the risk of suicidality with antidepressants compared to placebo in adults beyond age 24; there was a reduction in risk with antidepressants compared to placebo in adults aged 65 and older.” It also says, “Suicide is a known risk of depression and certain other psychiatric disorders, and these disorders themselves are the strongest predictors of suicide.” That means that this tragedy was likely the result of the underlying condition, not the treatment. If you're going to use the FDA as support for your speculations, you need to accept all of their statements.

Objectified
Tooele, UT

@ louie:

Question... What do cars, hammers, knives, fire and guns have in common?

Answer... Even though they've all been used in the deaths of a lot of people, all have also had an almost immeasurable positive effect in society. Like so many other things in life, it all depends on how the user chooses to use them. The positive results from using each of them by far outweighs the negative results.

In civilian life, many more people have been protected and saved by guns than have been killed by them. Your sarcasm shows an anti-gun agenda that is very short-sighted and narrow-minded. Please ponder the bigger picture a bit more.

Anonyme
Orem, UT

Airnaut, what 3% are you talking about? If you're suggesting that 3% of people taking antidepressants “go crazy and kill,” you need to provide some serious documentation. Because that's just fiction.

You mention God. I don't know your religion, but you might be interested in this quote from Elder Alexander B. Morrison of the LDS Church in the October 2005 Ensign article, “Myths about Mental Illness”: “During the past 40 years numerous medications have been developed by the multinational pharmaceutical industry. These products have proven of inestimable worth to millions.” No mention of lemmings.

Say What?
Bountiful, UT

"Kyler Ramsdell-Oliva, 32, once told her fiance that if she were to ever commit suicide, she would "get a gun" and take her two daughters with her".

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Beyond really weird, reinforces the saying, don't judge a book by its cover.

cjb
Bountiful, UT

re louie
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Guns are necessary to protect us and our families right?

---

So you believe if she didn't have access to a gun, she and her kids would be alive?

patriot
Cedar Hills, UT

why are some people allowed to be parents? This woman was seriously mentally ill and had no business having custody of these little girls. There needs to be some legit way for neighbors or family members to report suspicious behavior to state authorities so they can at least investigate and perhaps prevent this sort of thing from happening in the future.

UtahBlueDevil
Durham, NC

You know, there probably isn't a good answer here, because I just don't understand the depths of depression, but I struggle with the stories we see over and again when an adult who is obviously going through some hard times decides that they need to end the lives of their children. To deny these kids a chance at happiness... I don't understand. But I don't live in that darkness that those who do have depression live in.

It is just sad to see parents feel ownership of their kids, and have the right to choose if their kids live. Happens way too often.

Cougsndawgs
West Point , UT

Anonyme:
Well stated on all counts. I remember that talk by Elder Morrison and it was excellent.

What many people don't seem to understand is that there are numerous examples of medications that have some negative side effects (in fact all of them do). What we as clinicians have to weigh and constantly evaluate are the risks associated with side effects and the benefit the medication can provide. This is the case with all medications, not just antidepressants or psychotropics.

airnaut:
I appreciate your input and respect the fact that you were able to find faith as the answer to the struggles you had. As I said antidepressants aren't for everyone, and everyone is going to respond to them a little differently. I also tell my clients/patients that there is no drug that will cure your depression (I don't push pills and many others in my profession don't). I tell them that it takes a myriad of changes to see truly positive results including nutrition, exercise, stress management, relationship management, therapy with a trusted professional, and certainly faith in God and loved ones around you to uplift, as you suggested.

Heidi T.
Farmington, UT

Why are you covering old news with no new news? What was the point?

Ann Blake Tracy
Logandale, NV

Cougsndawgs and Anonym I have worked with depressed and mentally ill people for 25 years and have yet to see any proof that antidepressants save lives. I have worked as an expert in many high profile murder suicides associated with the use of antidepressants since 1992. Dr. Candace Pert whose discoveries made antidepressants possible sat on our board until her death last year. She publicly denounced the drugs as "monsters" in 1997.

When you speak of "negative effects" ... I do not classify murder and suicide just another "negative effect". I continue to ask why we, as a society, allow drugs with murder and suicide listed as possible reactions to remain on the market? Does that not make us responsible also? What are we doing?!

mrjj69
bountiful, UT

taking everyones guns away is not the answer. far more people died in car accidents, than by guns. nobody is calling to outlaw cars

Kenneth Benson
New York, NY

As that great philosopher Sammy Cahn observed, "Guns and madness, guns and madness / Go together like despair and sadness."

hapticz
Passaic, NJ

tailoring human behavior with chemical cocktails invites any number of untoward effects. studies on drug effects merely determines a blanket safety factor for a broad spectrum of individuals, but each individual has different reactions, subtle as they are. each individual evolves in a separate environmnet, unique experiences and reacts uniquely. these chemicals are unlike the basic nutrients we actually require to survive, such as we evolved from (water, air, simple foods, etc) . throw in the civilization we now endure, along with constant stress of global possible events, and other destabilizing inputs and we end up having have entire groups with 'dysfunctions', all seeeking some sense of peace, safety and contentment. humanity being what it is, 6 billion unique individuals, isn't a management issue, its a simple matter of accepting uniqueness, as is.

Draft dumbie
Farmington, UT

I'm not an anti-gun person, and have enjoyed hunting for many years. However, it's silly to compare guns to cars, hammers and knives. Fire is a better comparison, because it can be extremely destructive and deadly, if not properly controlled. The only purpose of a gun is to damage, injure or kill. On the other hand, the normal functions of cars, hammers and knives are very constructive, although they can be used deadly weapons.

That being said, I'm also very uneasy about the U.S. "police state" being the only possessors of guns. We's all heard the saying, "if you outlaw guns, only criminals will have guns." An even more scary saying to me is "if you outlaw guns, only police and the military will have guns." From what I have observed, many policemen have very poor judgment concerning the use of guns, and shoot to kill in many situations where lethal force is completely unnecessary. I think the constitutional right to bear arms should not be minimized, but there has to be a better solution for keeping guns out of the hands of those who will misuse them--including boneheaded policemen and military personnel.

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