re: LDS Liberal"We think we have a long ways to go, before we
start asking God to save us from ourselves..."Save us from
ourselves? That is what celebrities like Bono & Dicaprio are for.
@jsfSorry but I do not see anyone telling you to shut up or prey in
a closet, it does seem however that you are not comfortable with any opinions
that do not aline themselves with you.
"And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your
hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye
would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that
ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him
that he must not pray."(2 Nephi 32:8-----I
often wonder what makes anyone tell us that he can "do it" by himself
when the scriptures are full of examples when Christ, a member if the Godhead
and the creator of heaven and earth, spent much of his time in humble prayer.
Surely if there ever exited a person who could "do it" by himself, it
was Christ, yet he taught us to rely on our Father in heaven.
Gmlewis, Houston, tx.How do you know that " The truth is that
the Creator appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820, and through several revelations he
received thereafter, we have a very good idea of the purpose of the world".
Purposes of the mortal world:1) Gain a physical body2) Organize into
families3) Learn faith in God4) Repent of personal sins5) Grow
in love through service@Open Minded Mormon: You are right, all
these things eventually lead to the ultimate purpose of the world, to enable us
to obtain the blessings of immortality and eternal life.
@2bits…. not sure how you read into my comments that you said something
wrong…. but I still stand by my premise that just perhaps being civil
instead of judgmental and condescending to those who don't agree with you
would be a good first step before asking God to step in and help. In the scriptures it was really clear that the one time peace prevailed,
people were not referring to other groups as any other kind of -ite. They were
one people. They probably didn't agree on everything, but they stopped
trying to classify one group as being more spiritual, worthy, righteous, …
than the other group.I am all in favor of inviting God in your life
daily…. not the problem. Treating one another with respect, whether
republican or democrat, or member or non-member, even gay or straight….
much larger issue. If we can't do those simple things…. So I am not sure what said that was so Straw man…. but we'll just
have to agree to disagree here.
gmlewisHouston, TXThe truth is that the Creator appeared to
Joseph Smith in 1820, and through several revelations he received thereafter, we
have a very good idea of the purpose of the world.2:27 p.m. March
13, 2014======== Agreed, but what was that purpose?As I read it, it as to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal
life of man", butpolitical Conservatives think it is exploit,
shut out, sqander, and get GAIN.He who dies hording the most wins!which is why I am against them.There truely is "enough
and to spare" - and I believe it, but that is only when those holding
all the treasures of the earth SHARE with the others [hint: that is code
for re-distrubte the wealth, something else they are opposed to].
@Ultra Bob: Is there anywhere the slightest indication that the world has a
purpose?That is the saddest line I've read in weeks. It would
seem that once you discard the idea of the world having a Creator, then the only
conclusion is that the random existence of the world is without purpose.The truth is that the Creator appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820, and
through several revelations he received thereafter, we have a very good idea of
the purpose of the world.It would be worth investigating. Such
hopelessness is tragic.
A few years back, I was walking on 2nd south downtown salt lake city. A man
approached me, he looked homeless, and smelled of booze. He did not ask me for
money, he did not ask me my religion, but he asked me on the public street, for
me to say a prayer for him there on the street. I was taken back by his
request, but then I agreed and as people passed by I prayed with him. He
graciously thanked me, would take nothing offered and went his way. Should I
have taken him to a closet to pray with him? "It's the
"how" that I raise serious concern."Neither the letter
writer nor I said where to pray. The invitation was a simple invite to pray.
jsfCenterville, UTEven mormon liberals attack the idea for
devine help perhaps forgetting the commandment to pray in all things. ======= No one said anything of the sort.We didn't said
NOT to pray.or who, how or to what.As one Mormon to another,
It's the "how" that I raise serious concern.Because Jesus himself told us:Matthew 6:5-6King James
Version (KJV)5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the
hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the
corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you,
They have their reward.6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy
closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret;
and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Fascinating discussion about religion. No intolerance in the letter writers
comments, no demand in her letter, simply an invitation to pray to god. And
then comes the attack of the humanist liberals. How dare she share a religious
concept in a public sphere. These same people tell you there is no liberal
attack on religion and here they go after her. They attack the very idea that
she would pray for devine help as if this is a mandate to conform. Even mormon
liberals attack the idea for devine help perhaps forgetting the commandment to
pray in all things. Phillipians 4:6 "Don't worry about anything, but
in everything, through prayer and petition with thanksgiving, let your requests
be made known to God." So as with the letter writer I too,
invite you to pray.The apologists follow suit to deflect the liberal
I don't know about the rest of you, But I'm seeing a pattern ---
Henny Penny, and The Sky is Falling.Letter:
Invite the divineMar 12, 2014Sandy ThackeryHow interesting
that 'everything in America is falling apart' and everyone blames
someone else. Letter: Include the Tea Party, GOPFeb 9th,
2014Sandy ThackeryI join millions who are disappointed with
the way our country is going downhill because of the present administration.
Re [UtahBlueDevil 5:07 p.m]...Again, as I said in my 3:02 p.m. post... If
you ask for divine help, that doesn't automatically mean you are not
willing to do anything on your own. That's just a silly
assumption and a strawman argument. People who invite the divine into their
life don't say you don't have to do anything on your own. Quit making
such bizarre assumptions.We all know you have to do your best and
try to help yourself. You're not the only one. And people who feel they
can invite the divine into their life know just as well as you do, that they
need to be doing all they can on their own even when they do ask for God to be
with them.This assumption that IF you ask the divine into your
life.... you are not doing anything on your own... is just bizarre!
Is this the same "Divine" Being who has told us repeated to:Treat each others as equals?See that there is no poor amonst us?Care for the Poor, the Sick, the Needy and the Elderly?NOT start
Wars?Love one another, and reject Mammon and Babylon?To not let
PRIDE guide their Foreign or Econmic polocies?Ya - That's what
Sandy T. uses god as a blunt instrument if you read some of her other letter to
the editors. I'd rather avoid said blunt instrument, thank you very much.
"Here's an idea: Let's invite God back into our daily lives and
get to know him again. Perhaps he'd even be willing to help when we
can't figure it out by ourselves!"Why do you need others
involved in your quest to invite God back into your life? If you
need/want God in your life, that is a personal action you need to take and I
wish you the best of luck with that. (As a word of advice, if you are having
that much difficulty getting God into your life, you may be looking in the wrong
places.)If, however, you mean I need your God in my life, I will
pass, thank you all the same. My life is good and I don't need to make you
feel better about the world by having your God involved in it.
If only there was some smidgen of validation or proof of what the people who
speak for the God of people say about their God, then perhaps us non-believers
could weaken in our doubt. If only those people would live their lives as if
they believed their own words. Is there anywhere the slightest indication that
the world has a purpose?
Invite the divine?Does that mean we can finally rid ourselves of
this backwards health care system and get a single payer one? Can we finally
bring back worked protections? Unions so we can actually make a living? Raise
the min wage so workers don't have to work2-3 other jobs or use food
stamps? Can we admit that the wealth inequality is the direct result of our
backwards tax system? Can we admit that the rich have waged class warfare and
wages it successfully to steal from the middle class and poor? Can we admit that
this tea party non compromise is nonsense?I'll believe that we
are ready to invite the divine when repubs are ready to admit that trickle down
economics is of the devil, single payer is the way to go, and when they are
ready to raise the min wage.
Do we have some problems? sure, is the country falling apart? hardly. Crime
rates and teen pregnancy remain historically low, abortion rates are lower then
they have been in the past 40 years, etc etc etc... just because the letter
writers faith no longer has a strangle hold on public policy does not mean the
world is ending.
Asking God to do for us what we are capable of doing, but refuse to do, is not
the answer. Whether there is a God or not… I personally do believe in
something greater than myself, the action part of it will always be up to us.
God is not going to come down here and save ourselves from ourselves. That is
our jobs.If we can not treat each other with dignity and respect, we
have no business asking God to make others do what we ourselves refuse to do.Mocking people because of their faith I am sure is not going to
help… in fact, I can pretty much say it will result in exactly the
opposite of civility.
I would say that would include thinking of others and caring enough to work
together. Putting God in our lives doesn't mean the same thing to everyone!
Ernest T. Bass,You got me there dude... I can't think of a single
instance when God blessed or helped anybody. Good point.Just
kidding.I could give you a long list of examples... but you would
just dismiss them. So I won't.===But the existence
of God wasn't what I was trying to get at. I was trying to point out is
that IF we asked for help, and he helped us (which I believe he does)... it
would probably be through prompting someone to do something... not sending an
angel or something like that (although that probably happens sometimes too).
That's why I always follow the promptings I get to help people (just in
Elder Jeffery Holland gave a remarkable talk about the "Angles Among
us."Angles are not metaplasma energy with wings.WE
are to be God's Angels. Just as others have mentioned.BrighamYoung taught the true intent of religion --- "…
many of our brethren and sisters are on the Plains with hand-carts, and probably
many are now seven hundred miles from this place, and they must be brought here,
we must send assistance to them.THAT is my religion; that is the
dictation of the Holy Ghost that I possess, it is to save the people. . . . This
is the salvation I am now seeking for, to save our brethren that would be apt to
perish, or suffer extremely, if we do not send them assistance. [JD 4:113] I will tell you all that your faith, religion, and profession of
religion, will never save one soul of you in the celestial kingdom of our God,
unless you carry out just such principles as I am now teaching you. Go and
bring in those people now on the plains! [JD 4:113]" Greater
love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [John
Ernest - Do you include yourself in those recommendations? I don't see you
building too many people up and saying positive things on these boards. But it
probably only applies to others huh?
Hey 2bits: I can point to many billions of instances where it's verified
that human help other humans. You can't point to anything verified, beyond
personal belief, where god helped anyone.
nonceleb and LDS Liberal,Who said stop trying to help yourself?If
you can give the names I'd like to see those comments.Or was that
just a strawman?===Nobody said stop thinking or trying
to figure it out for yourself. Just because you ask for help doesn't mean
you haven't or won't try to help yourself (or let others help you).We need to quit going to the extreme every time with our biased
assumptions about others, and claiming people think things they never said (or
thought). Nobody thinks if you invite the divine into our lives... you
can't also try to work it out on your own as well... that's just a
silly assumption.===Just because somebody believes in
asking for divine help... doesn't automatically mean they haven't or
won't try themselves as well.We need to try to reduce the
partisan bickering (if possible).Every disagreement isn't a political
offense. Nor does it need the usual knee-jerk political partisan response.This isn't politics.
Like praying for rain. Go ahead and do it, but do not stop trying to deal with
the drought with practical solutions.
My LDS primary teaching taught us that -- WE were supposed to
everything we possibly can for ourselves first, and THEN, seek for
Divine Guidance.D&C 58: 26 For behold, it is not meet that
I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same
is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. 27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many
things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And
inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.We
think we have a long ways to go, before we start asking God to save us from
The main problem I see with this "solution" is to determine exactly what
God says and which of his numerous self-proclaimed spokepeople to believe. Right
now, for instance, the political party that assumes its abbreviation means
God's Only Party espouses economic philosophies that are an affront to the
very God they claim to worship. Their war on the poor, for instance, is not even
consistent with the book they claim to be inerrant truth. So if you
can suggest a way to solve this little dilemma, I'm all ears.
I did. She said 'Suck it up. I gave you the brains to think for
I never asked God to leave my life and he is still very much a part of it. We
don't, however, believe in PDA. Some relationships should remain private.
Ernest,If you think you can help people better than God can... then go
ahead.I actually think you are both on the correct path. But you
need both (not just one). IF you invite God into your life and ask
for help... you're probably going to get that help through your
friends/neighbors. So yah... we have to be willing to help each other AND we
need to be humble enough to ask and accept help (even from "supernatural
entities").We can help each other in some things (mostly
temporal things). But there are other things (ie spiritual things) that we may
need divine help. Some things we just can't do by ourselves, or even if
others help. Things like repentance, redemption, resurrection, hope in the
afterlife, etc....So not everything can be solved with your "we
can just help each other".... But at the same time... we do need to be
willing to help each other, even if some people believe they can ask God for
help.So you are right. We CAN help each other. And she is
right. We can invite the divine into our lives.IMO... we need both.
"Maybe it's time to take responsibility"Okay." and think about the possibility that we cannot solve all the problems of
our country by ourselves."Well... we had a good run at the
responsibility thing... for about half a sentence before thinking about passing
at least a chunk of it off to someone/something else to deal with...
‘Letter: Invite the divine’========== and
I'm 100% fine with that, so long as you are willing to allow others
to worship -- "Who, Where, or What they may".[God, God
the Father, the Mother, the Son, Allah, an energy source, Trees and Shrubs,
Gaia, Zesus, or intellect of their very own consciousness, etc.]You
see, I hear stuff like this all the time, but then I see extreme religous
repression and bigotry coming from these very same people when they discover or
realize that someone is worshipping a God they do not recognize. If
Christians want to have they statues of Jesus on Oklahoma State grounds, then We must also allow a 7 foot statue of Baphomet being erected by
Plus 1 to what Ernest said. As the central tenet of Deism states,
"God gave us reason not religion" So, lets use common sense
and logic not some Bronze Age hokum.
Funny I don't see folks immigrating to theocratic states in the middle east
where they invite God over loud speakers in prayer several times daily. Nor do I
see these countries prospering.
Or maybe we can just help each other, be better people and leave supernatural
entities out of the blame or credit game.