Comments about ‘LDS Church History Symposium presenter remembers early church martyrs’

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Published: Saturday, March 8 2014 5:00 a.m. MST

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Yorkshire
City, Ut

Am grateful for this remembrance.

Would also like to mention 4 more martyrs, killed by a mob in Tennessee in 1884--Elder Gibbs and Elder Barry, and two half brothers who were also killed while attempting to save the missionaries, James Hutson and Martin Condor.

Utah Valley Guy
Springville, UT

So Red Corvette, you think Mormonism is a fraud and the martyrs died in vain?

Well, can you name another fraud that brings millions and millions of people enormous joy to the point that they happily devote years of their lives to sharing it, while the leaders (perpetrators?) live humble lives while pouring billions of dollars into building and maintaining temples and churches, and caring for the poor?

Can you name a Ponzi scheme that lasts for hundreds of years and just keeps going?

Maybe you should re-examine your assumptions?

Yorkshire
City, Ut

Red Corvette said "or in service of fraud?"

Gordon B. Hinckley said: "We declare without equivocation that God the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, appeared in person to the boy Joseph Smith.

When I was interviewed by Mike Wallace on the 60 Minutes program, he asked me if I actually believed that. I replied, “Yes, sir. That’s the miracle of it.”

That is the way I feel about it. Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens."

People are free to believe it is legit, or a fraud.
You think one way.
Others believe another--and were willing to give their life for it.

Simple as that.

LovelyDeseret
Gilbert, AZ

I expect more information about what was presented.

Markbo
Salt Lake City, UT

Be very careful of the worship of these "martyrs". Especially knowing that the LDS historians clearly know Joseph and Hyrum died in a gun fight while in jail for real crimes they committed by destroying the nauvoo expositor printing press. The paper exposed the truth about illegal polygamy. Hitler used his "martyrs" to rally his followers too.

Michigander
Westland, MI

Yorkshire,

The fraudulent part, also known as the falsified history part, is when God the Eternal Father appearing to Joseph Smith was later added to the First Vision account, circa 1838. This is what we have always believed in The Church of Jesus Christ (WHQ: Monongahela, PA) - the only true succession of the Restored Gospel.

Rigo
Farmington, UT

I'm mildly amused at Markbo's characterization of the martyrdom of the prophet and his brother at Carthage jail as 'dying in a gun fight' for real crimes they committed for destroying the Nauvoo Expositor. I heard something similar to this from an old timer around Caldwell County MO, who said the locals of Fairview Township MO refer to the 1838 attack of 240 Missouri militia and their killing of 17 in a blacksmith shop at the Haun's Mill Massacre as "the shootout at Haun's Mill". I suppose it depends on your perspective.

sharrona
layton, UT

@Yorkshire, "We declare without equivocation that God the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, appeared in person to the boy Joseph Smith."

For no one can see me and live. (Ex 33: 18-20)… The LORD often appeared, but not in His full shekinah glory. Gen. 17:1. … he (Moses)endured, as seeing him who is invisible (Heb 11:27)

J S, Lectures on Faith, Q. What is the Father? A. He is a personage of glory and of power. (5:2.). What is the son? First, he is a personage of tabernacle.

“(1 John 4:1).. test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world…..verse 12 No man hath seen God at any time..

Northern Lights
Arco, ID

Founding Church Father Irenaeus said of John 1:18, "For 'no man,' he says, 'hath seen God at any time,' unless the only begotten Son of God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him]". (Against Heresies 1:427). Many throughout the Old and New Testament have, in fact, seen God. The early Christian Church recognized this principle.

Joseph Smith was martyred in part because of this same claim - just like some prophets in Biblical past. The difference being in all the many criminal charges he faced, he was entitled to a presumption of innocence until proven guilty per U.S. law. While in Carthage, he was never convicted of riot or treason since he was murdered by a mob before a court ever heard his case.

The LDS Church worships God, not martyrs. However, many in the Church remembers these martyrs, lest we forget.

sharrona
layton, UT

@Northern Lights. Irenaeus, “God the Father uncreated, who is uncontained, invisible, one God, creator of the universe; this is the first article of our faith”.( Alister McGrath, p. 93).

John 1:18, Modern translations are helpful: “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. “(John 1:18,NET,NIV,ESV) Supported by all Greek mss.
But no support for(John 1:19 JST)”And no man hath seen God at any time, except he hath born
record of the Son, for except it is through him no man can be saved.”

The right hand of God is an anthropomorphism. . We know God is ONE Spirit, John 4:24,, who is everywhere, Ps. 139:7-10, Eph. 1:23, Jer. 23:24. A "Hebrew Idiom." like, "he's my right hand man." In the Hebrew this idiom denotes power and strength. i.e... Steven.

Who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, ‘whom no one has seen or can see’. To him be honor and might forever. 1 Tim 6:16

?
SLC, UT

Hi Sharrona,

What about the following? See what you think.

Genesis 32:30

"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Exodus 33:11

"And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh with his friend."

1 Kings 11:9

"And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the Lord God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice."

Isaiah 6:5

"Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts."

Matthew 5:8

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God."

Matthew 11:27

"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

Act 7:55-56

Not enough room to quote, but Stephen saw the Savior standing on the right hand of God.

Hope you have a good day.

sharrona
layton, UT

RE: SLC, UT "Hebrew Idioms.", "he's my right hand man." The N.T. idioms denotes power, strength.

i.e.. Steven and (Anthromorphic implications like,The Sheep and the Goats, the sheep and goats are separated with the sheep on the right hand of God and the goats on the left hand.

Genesis 32:30? "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."= Hosea12;3-4 he struggled with God, Yes he struggled with the Angel and prevailed, He wept, and sought favor from Him.

Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh with his friend."=
..No one can see me and live. (Ex 33: 18-20) The LORD often appeared, but not in His full shekinah glory. Gen. 17:1. i.e...(Moses)endured, as seeing him who is Invisible (Heb 11:27).

(1 Kings 11:9 5 )ontext, (1Kings 3:5)the Lord appeared to Solomon during the night in a dream.

Isaiah 6:5,; my eyes have seen the King, the LORD=(Jehovah)Almighty."=(John 12:41 NIV)Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

Michigander
Westland, MI

RE: ? in SLC,

No man can see the FACE of God the Eternal Father (JEHOVAH) and live to tell about it.

But many have seen the face of the Blessed Savior and Only Begotten Eternal Son of God, Jesus Christ, as attested to in the KJV Bible and the Book of Mormon.

God the Eternal Father (JEHOVAH) does not and never has moved off of or away from His Great White Throne. Only Jesus Christ moves off of or away from his throne at the right hand of His Father JEHOVAH.

?
SLC, UT

Hi Sharrona,

How is what you say in how the Lord appeared to those of old any different than what Joseph Smith says he beheld where both the Father and the Son appeared to him? Joseph Smith says he beheld a vision.

As recorded Joseph Smith-History 1:24-25, Joseph Smith says:

"It was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made his defense before King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him; some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light and heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise." (Continued)

?
SLC, UT

"So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation."

Hope you have a good day.

?
SLC, UT

One last point in Joseph Smith’s vision of both the Father and the Son appearing to him, he says:

"...When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home." Joseph Smith-History 1:20

So again, how is this different from how those of old had the Lord appear to them?

Hope you have a good day.

sharrona
layton, UT

RE; SLC UT, J S, Lectures on Faith,(5:2)
Q.What is the Father? A. He is a personage of glory and of power*.
What is the son? First, he is a personage of tabernacle**.

*(John 4:24) God [is] spirit ( *pneuma ο theos). There is ‘*no article’ in the Greek text before the word spirit, and that emphasizes the quality or essence of the word. The word spirit occurs first in the sentence for emphasis. The literal idea would be something like, “Absolutely spirit in His essence is God.” Jesus did not leave any doubt about this truth. God(The Father)= Spirit!

**See my hands and feet, Touch me, and see. For a Spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”(Luke 24:39 ESV) God the Son.

“Signs of a Christian experience of unity, love and devotion is qualified by an awareness of a great gulf between Sinful Creatures and the and Holy being, the Uncreated creator of all else.

.e…’ Is 6:5 Woe is me! ..for I am a man of unclean lips(sinner). Entails, A higher devotion for Jesus and a thirst for the Bible”. Johnathan Edwards.

antodav
TAMPA, FL

I’m glad somebody remembers them. Too many people, church members included, take their sacrifices for granted or ignore them entirely.

And I wish some such people would stay away from this website as well. If you want to leave the Church, that’s fine. Now leave the Church alone, and go somewhere else to spread your bile and hatred.

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