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Published: Wednesday, March 5 2014 12:00 a.m. MST

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Open Minded Mormon
Everett, 00

I got beat up in Gospel Doctrine for this -- so I might as well expect the same warm reception here as well...

God warns us about being the evils of being idle.

Conservative interpet idleness as the poor needing a hand out, a morse of corn, a penny in a beggars cup.

Liberals interpret that same scripture to mean the filthy rich, who are so wealthy that they no long have do any NOT work, but just like Kings -- simply collect money and make themselves extrmemly wealthy strictly from the labor of others.

King Benjamin and tons of other prophets - ancient and modern - explain that THESE are the idle that God talks and warns us about, not the poor, the sick or the needy.

GK Willington
Salt Lake City, UT

I am mixed about how I feel on this issue.

Robert Reich (Bill C's Sec of Labor) had some interesting points.

Redshirt1701
Deep Space 9, Ut

To "Kent C. DeForrest" lets continue looking into the scriptures, and see what the Lord has said about wealth.

Jacob 2:19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

D&C 134:2 We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.

D&C 134:2 is the essence of capitalism. Men are to be able to exercise freely thier conscience, control their property (Socialism and communism takes that away from individuals and gives it to the state).

If you want I can quote modern prophets that state that collectivist ideals are from Satan.

Apparently being wealthy is GOOD for those with the right intent. That sure sounds like capitalism to me.

To "Open Minded Mormon" the reason you got beat up is because you are wrong, and are still wrong.

Nate
Pleasant Grove, UT

@Kent C. DeForrest "If you want to quote scripture, try this one"

Yes, but let's quote the whole thing. The verse you skipped over says:

"For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves."

Curmudgeon
Salt Lake City, UT

Redshirt1701:

Seeking wealth is OK only if the wealth is used to "clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted." So if one expends one's wealth in that manner, great--he or she becomes economically more equal to the ones he helps. The problem is not the acquisition of wealth, it is the retention of it, or the failure to use it to do good, which is the plague of most wealthy people, who can't stand to part with their excess. Do not envy them; they are to be pitied.

I hope I get to view the wealthy trying to squeeze through the eye of the needle. It would be quite entertaining.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

@Nate
Pleasant Grove, UT

"For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves."
4:46 p.m. March 4, 2014

=========

This is like a Father who gives one of his children a bag of candy, and commands him to share with his siblings.

The earth IS full, and there is enough and to spare.

The 0.01% have accumulated [NOT worked or earned] more wealth than 50% of the World's population.

Our Heavenly Father will be punishing the greedy one who did not learn to share.

Nate
Pleasant Grove, UT

@LDS Liberal

Again, you're skipping over the part about agency. Why the aversion?

one old man
Ogden, UT

What is the biggest driver of inflation?

Simple. The cost of gasoline and diesel fuel.

Any increase in fuel costs drives increases in virtually every other corner of the world's economy.

It's not a wage increase for workers who are trying desperately to keep up with inflation caused by factors completely beyond their control.

Redshirt1701
Deep Space 9, Ut

To "Curmudgeon" so tell us, who is greedier, the rich man who pays his wokers what he deems to be a fair wage, or the poor man who insists that the wealthy gives him more stuff?

If you look at the scriptures, they are full of examples where people are given great wealth. So again, to you and your ilk. What is wrong with people being wealthy?

Nonconlib
Happy Valley, UT

Nate,

Kent C. DeForrest here. I ran out of comments under that login. I skipped over that verse because of the 200-word limit, but it is relevant. There is enough and to spare, but only if it is divvied up more or less evenly. That is the whole point of those verses. If a small minority hoards more than it needs, then there is not enough to go around. So any way you slice it, you lose, if you are promoting a hoarder system, be it capitalist or communist.

Of course we haven't said anything about whether our rampant turn-scarce-resources-into-waste system is sustainable, but the funnel-wealth-to-the-top system certainly isn't.

Redshirt1701
Deep Space 9, Ut

To "Nonconlib" no, again, you are wrong. The scripture says that there is enough to spare. Nothing is said about dividing up resources or anything like that.

You remind me of the Pharasees that would read things into the scriptures that were not there.

Also, you should realize that the "funnel-wealth-to-the-top system" is what you get when you adopt a collectivist philosophy. If you let capitalism work, you have a system that resembles a forest. As businesses become overgrown and old, they will evendually collapse and new, younger trees will fill in the space.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

“Those who set their hearts upon the things of the world usually focus on some combination of that worldly quartet of property, pride, prominence, and power. When attitudes or priorities are fixed on the acquisition, use, or possession of property, we call that condition materialism. …

“From the emphasis given to this subject in the scriptures, it appears that materialism has been one of the greatest challenges to the children of God in all ages of time. Greed, the ugly face of materialism in action, has been one of Satan’s most effective weapons in corrupting men and turning their hearts from God. …

“The Apostle [Paul] did not say that there was anything inherently evil about money. … It is not money but the love of money that is identified as the root of all evil.”—Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

======

BTW -- Your single focus on Wealth and Capitalism is a sure sign you are not in it to bless the poor, the needy, the sick, oppressed or the hungry -- per Jacob 2:19

You can buy anything in this world, with money.
Babylon
Mammon
Gadianton
Master Mahan

Redshirt1701
Deep Space 9, Ut

To "LDS Liberal" your focus on destroying capitalism and support of collectivist philosophies like socialism and communism only show that you have been deceived by the devil.

"The government will take from the 'haves' and give to the 'have nots.' [When this happens] Both have lost their freedom. Those who 'have,' lost their freedom to give voluntarily of their own free will and in the way they desire. Those who 'have not', lost their freedom because they did not earn what they received. They got 'something for nothing,' and they will neither appreciate the gift nor the giver of the gift". - Howard W. Hunter.

"Communism and all other similar isms bear no relationship whatever to the united order. They are merely the clumsy counterfeits which Satan always devises of the gospel plan." LDS First Presidency 1942.

"Another notable counterfeit system to the Lord’s plan is collectivized socialism. Socialism derives its philosophy from the founders of communism, Marx and Engels. Communism in practice is socialism." Elder Ezra T. Benson.

Satan has always wanted to control those who want to follow God. Through socialism and communism Satan tricks you into rebellion against God.

Nate
Pleasant Grove, UT

@Nonconlib

I disagree with your premise that the pie is just one size. I believe that God gives us the resources to create pie according to our need.

It is true that He commands us to care for each other and to share. There is no question about this. The real question is in how we organize ourselves to bring it about. We cannot set aside agency. A utopia that doesn't allow agency is no utopia.

I don't mind if you want to try to think up a better system. If it infringes on my liberty, I will reject it.

Hank Pym
SLC, UT

to Open Minded Mormon 3/4

"I got beat up in Gospel Doctrine for this -- so I might as well expect the same warm reception here as well..."

I am sure you did. Though, I agree with you.

Money is nice. It gives you options & flexibility.

Its people who are obsessed w/ the acquisition of meaningless swag just to keep up w/ the Jones' that are pathetic. Like the song says, "If you can't take it with you then what the use. I never saw a Uhaul being pulled behind a hearse."

Mister J
Salt Lake City, UT

per Redshirt1701...

{Also, you should realize that the "funnel-wealth-to-the-top system" is what you get when you adopt a collectivist philosophy.}

Does that make Wall St and their lobbyists are collectivists? Please tell me I'm dying to know?

Curmudgeon
Salt Lake City, UT

Redshirt1701:

When I look at the scriptures, I see lots of warnings about the dangers of the love of money (greed) and admonitions to care for the poor and needy. Greed can afflict both poor and rich, in the form of pride or envy, respectively, but the greater spiritual risk, in my view, is the retention of wealth without commensurate efforts to aid the poor.

Somehow the DN deleted my earlier comment, so I would just refer you to Mosiah 4:17-23 for one of the many scriptural condemnations of withholding one's substance from the poor.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

My LDS scriptures tell me:

Jesus over-turned the Capitalists tables of the Money-Changers in the Temple,
and
started Socialist Communes in Jerusalem and the Americas.

Families are Socialist/Communist,
So is the United States Military.

We have had the United Order,
Universal Healthcare and Welfare Systems,
and many of us have covented to obey the Law of Consecration -
and seek to have all things in common and have NO poor among us.

You see --
I'm good with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the LDS Doctrines RedShirt,
it just I take issue with some of my fellow "Saints".

Alter Nate
Pleasant Grove, UT

@LDS Liberal "My LDS scriptures tell me: Jesus over-turned the Capitalists tables of the Money-Changers in the Temple,
and started Socialist Communes in Jerusalem and the Americas."

No, they don't tell you that. You are applying your own private definition of socialism, which is not the same as the one accepted by the rest of the population, including the people who publish dictionaries.

RedShirtMIT
Cambridge, MA

To "LDS Liberal" you must have some heavily edited scriptures then.

The facts are that Jesus taught in Jerusalem and in the Americas. He did not establish any sort of socialist system.

His followers applied his teachings and took care of eachother. They obviously continued to maintain personal property (socialism and communism get rid of personal property), since they eventually separated into classes.

I know you take issue with some of your fellow saints, but you are also supporting and preaching things contrary to the teachings of the Prophets of the LDS church. There are many instances where Prophets and the First Presidency have declared that Socialism and Communism are Satan's counterfit plan. Knowing that they are a counterfit plan, why would you continue to support socialism/communism?

To "Mister J" yes, many of those on Wall Street are collectivists. Some of the bigger, and wealthier collectivists are Warren Buffett, George Soros, and Michael Bloomberg. They know that if thing switched to a collectivist ideal that they would be protected and would be in a "more equal" position where they would maintain their wealth and gain power.

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