OpheliaBountiful, UT"I don't understand those who maintain
"God has spoken." For example, in Corinthians we're told, "Let
your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to
speak." I don't hear anyone demanding women keep silent in church. No
one takes that scripture literally. This is just one example of many. Why insist
that an obscure scripture in Leviticus is God's word and should be taken
literally? I don't understand. What I do understand is my deep
and abiding love for my dear son and my wonderful gay friends. I love them! I
have wept tears of deep sorrow over this issue. I try to stay faithful to the
Church, but it is so difficult."You are close to Jesus on this
one. Men who say that they are His servants run churches that are based on
marriage and procreation, and live in fear of how to integrate their own Gay
children.I hope you speak up at church and do not let anyone silence
to Lasvegaspam (pg 1)...There is social engineering in the media.
Really?Do you believe religion is under attack? This periodical
implies it at least 3 times a week. If so, lets hear it for confirmation bias.
@Cookie999"could someone to explain to me why entire towns in
history had no homosexual members or lesbian members, and there were hundreds
and thousands of people in them."Maybe because, historically,
being gay could get you imprisoned, institutionalized, sterilized, run out of
town, beaten, tortured, murdered...
If 1.7% of the population is gay or lesbian, could someone to explain to me why
entire towns in history had no homosexual members or lesbian members, and there
were hundreds and thousands of people in them. I wish there were records
available of what Jewish or other traditional matchmakers were able to
accomplish in accounting for who was married to whom, because I think it would
be extremely revealing of how there really is someone for everyone, but it is,
in my opinion, someone of the opposite gender.
@ RedWings, I know it . . . , et alHere's the predicament
you're in; In America, where people are granted wide latitude with respect
to religious belief & practice, No H8's claim is every bit as valid as
yours. He's turning your claim around on you, your claim that "God says
X about Y and Z" and saying, "No, He doesn't" -- end of story.
Educated people should all recognize that religious beliefs, claims
and doctrines conflict, and are therefore, unreliable. This is precisely why we
don't enshrine any specific religious belief into law, unless there is
ample secular reason to do so.
@Red WingsHow is your own denomination privy to truths that others are
not? Is it because you agree with them? Did God bring forth scripture to your
sects that He is keeping secret from others? God's Word is indeed available
to all, but you must look in the right place. Jesus did not advocate hate. If
you want to seek Gods word regarding same-sex marriage, his loving truth is
found here:Affirming Pentecostal Church InternationalAlliance
of Christian ChurchesAnointed Affirming Independent MinistriesThe
Association of Welcoming and Affirming BaptistsChristian Church (Disciples
of Christ)Community of ChristConservative JudaismEcumenical
Catholic ChurchEcumenical Catholic CommunionThe Episcopal ChurchEvangelical Anglican Church In AmericaEvangelical Lutheran Church in
AmericaGlobal Alliance of Affirming Apostolic PentecostalsInclusive
Orthodox ChurchMetropolitan Community ChurchOld Catholic ChurchProgressive Christian AllianceReconciling Pentecostals InternationalReconstructionist JudaismReform JudaismReformed Anglican Catholic
ChurchReligious Society of Friends (Quakers)Unitarian Universalist
ChurchUnited Church of ChristUnity Church
@ RedWings $ I know it...How do you know you are on God's
side?God is loving and accepting. He taught you not to judge.Have you considered John's words: 1 John 4:20"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For
whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love
God, whom they have not seen"
No H8:How are those denominations you mention privy to truths that
others are not? Is it becasue you agree with them? Did God bring forth
scripture to those sects that He is keeping secret from the rest of us?God's Word is available to all. If you choose to disregard it, you do so
at your own risk. I am happy to be on God's side rather than on the side
of a rapidly decaying secular society. If that means I get called a
"bigot", that is fine. Christ was called worse....
@ I Know itre: "The law doesn't recognize homosexuality as a
healthy union, a valid one, or one worth recognition."Please check
your facts. Actually the law does in many US states, all of Canada and most of
Europe. In fact Iowa and Mass have the lowest divorce rate in the US. Two
states where SSM is thriving and opposite sex couples are learning about
commitment and stable marriages from them. re: "We will be held
accountable before God for whether we followed true principles or rejected
them." Actually, Episcopal, Unitarian, Reformed Judaism, Quaker and
Buddhist faiths, embrace, celebrate, honor and perform same-sex marriages. They
are blessed with special access to moral truth for which remaining religions are
not privy. Moreover, they have freedom of religion rights in civil marriage
law too. Why do you want to take that right away from them?
Mayfair and IndeMak, once marriage equality is legal no one will care about your
opinion. They will get married, or not, and live their lives without the burden
of knowing or caring what you think about them.
koseighty,Eating a cheeseburger isn't illegal.Homosexuality isn't illegal.The law doesn't recognize
cheeseburgers as a healthy food.The law doesn't recognize
homosexuality as a healthy union, a valid one, or one worth recognition.Calling a cheeseburger healthy for your own gain is irresponsible.
Neglecting the well being of others to satisfy yourself is wrong.Homosexuality doesn't bring us happiness. It's a sin and brings
despair. Calling it a good or acceptable thing is likewise wrong. We will be
held accountable before God for whether we followed true principles or rejected
them.We have a choice to follow, or not follow the truth.We
have a choice to refrain, or fight the truth.We don't choose what is
actually true or not.I'd rather be on the side of God than
history or modern social movements that are short-lived. God is eternal. The
happiness He extends to us is eternal. There is no reason to fight that, at all,
that can be justified. Right is right, wrong is wrong. Wickedness never was
If there WERE a conspiracy by Gay folks or others to hurt churches and cause
their young people to leave religion behind--- then the ridiculous lady
speaker who was cited and half the comments here would be doing their work.The world has changed.Young people know everything nowadays, and
are less ready to accept pat answers.It is complete nonsense that
adding loving, taxpaying adults to the ranks of the married damages marriage.
Massachusett's divorce rate is tiny in comparison to Utah or the Bible Belt
States.All this boils down to:1-- Snooty religious
people do not want to give civil rights to folks they do not approve of,
taxpaying citizens or not.2-- Fearful churches do not look hard
enough for ways to keep their Gay kids as equals.Young people see
"religious" people speaking against Gays, and hate the speaker, not the
This is crazy. I have nothing against some kind of legal arrangement that
recognizes committed adults, regardless of gender or gender preference, sharing
a permanent household, providing for insurance coverage and survivor benefits,
among other helpful financial and civil benefits offered to people in spousal
relationships. But those things are not marriage. Marriage is truly meant to be
between one man and one woman. Defining it any other way is inviting an
unknowable wake of disaster for individuals, families and society.People keep equating this with civil rights. It is not. All have the right to
marry a member of the opposite sex. No one is forced to marry. No rights are
violated. Everyone should be treated with respect, whether homosexual or
heterosexual. People need to stop mixing issues and feelings with legal rights.
I can't expect the "right" to do something just because I want to,
or to redefine something just because I have a bunch of people who also want to.
Here is another reason why polls are moving:A trial is occurring in
Michigan as I write. An expert witness who is cited in both the State of
Utah's brief and the LDS, et al Amicus brief is testifying. On the eve of
his testimony, here is an official statement his employer, University of Texas
at Austin - dept. of Sociology, released:"Like all faculty, Dr.
Regnerus has the right to pursue his areas of research and express his point of
view. However, Dr. Regnerus’ opinions are his own. They do not
reflect the views of the Sociology Department of The University of Texas at
Austin. Nor do they reflect the views of the American Sociological
Association, which takes the position that the conclusions he draws from his
study of gay parenting are fundamentally flawed on conceptual and methodological
grounds and that findings from Dr. Regnerus’ work have been cited
inappropriately in efforts to diminish the civil rights and legitimacy of LBGTQ
partners and their families. We encourage society as a whole to evaluate
Yes, the fact that more and more (probably the huge majority) of Americans now
know someone personally who's gay, is why gay rights--including gay
marriage--have made such leaps in acceptance in our country.To those
people who still say, "Keep your sexuality private, we don't need to
know about it!"--that's exactly why gays make their orientation public:
so people will see them as real human beings, not "the other."If you read the stories of individual gays coming out, and getting married (or
demonstrating for that right), you'll be shocked to find that they never
once talk about what they do in bed. They just want their dignity and their
rights.It's strictly in the minds of bigoted straights that
gays are "pushing their sex practices" in straight people's faces.
And guess what? If these bigoted straights hadn't made such a big deal
about gays throughout history, as well as the present time, gays wouldn't
need to make a big deal about it now.To those straights who are
"sick and tired of hearing/reading about gays," you brought that on
@TheWalker who said:"Homosexuality has been declared by the prophets,
both ancient and modern, to be a sin of enormous moral magnitude."Luckily, in the United States "sin" does not equal "crime."
For example, here are some "sins":shrimp -- NOT illegalcheeseburgers -- NOT illegalalcohol -- NOT illegaltobacco -- NOT
illegalmasturbation -- NOT illegaladultery -- NOT illegaland even:homosexuality -- NOT illegalIn addition, the
courts have ruled 19 times since Windsor that laws prohibiting marriage equality
ARE unconstitutional and thus illegal.People are free to believe
whatever they will. But defining something a "sin" is not grounds to
enshrine your beliefs in law. That is precisely what our civil rights, as
inscribed in our Constitution, are designed to protect against.
Homosexuality has been declared by the prophets, both ancient and modern, to be
a sin of enormous moral magnitude. The individuals, communities, and nations
that embrace such a lifestyle will in time be destroyed.There are,
unfortunately, many who would call themselves Christians who have been persuaded
by the immoral teachings of our society into believing that homosexuality is an
acceptable alternative to the Creator's design of the family. I find it
appalling that a significant number of those who would call themselves Saints
have been deceived as well.
@Values Voter who commented on Paddycakes:"He is coming
back, and He is not all that happy. We, i.e., this nation will pay a price, and
God will bring His people to their knees."Rocket Science:(Quotes from the Proclamation)".. . we warn . . . of calamities
foretold by ancient and modern prophets."And, also, too. These
threats would hold more weight if they weren't recycled from the
church's battle against civil rights and interracial marriage back in the
50s and 60s. They will have a harder time getting the world to forget their
position this time -- the internet never forgets.
Paddycakes:"He is coming back, and He is not all that happy. We, i.e.,
this nation will pay a price, and God will bring His people to their
knees."Rocket Science:(Quotes from the Proclamation)".. . we warn . . . of calamities foretold by ancient and modern
prophets."As American society moves to embrace the full humanity
of gay people more and more, issuing threats and warnings about "dire
consequences" of that positive evolution will prove less and less effective.
This poll is evidence of that. I've been tracking this issue for some
time now (even before the LDS church became involved in California's Prop
22 in 1999). Back then, it was much more common to see frustrated posters resort
to predictions about "the end times" in an argument. Now, such
strategies in forums like this are, a.) much less frequent, and b.), pretty easy
to dismiss, since they tend to come when the poster realizes there are few, if
any, rational secular arguments for excluding gay people from the institution of
@TheWalker who said:"I wonder what the results would have been if a
similar poll had been taken in Sodom and Gomorrah prior to their
destruction."Jewish tradition holds that God destroyed Sodom and
Gomorrah because of their treatment of strangers and the poor. "Now this
was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed
and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. (Ezekiel 16:49)"From a Jewish site: "The Sodomites were notorious for their
wickedness. They had no consideration for the poor, nor for the passing stranger
to whom they offered no hospitality; nor would they even sell him any food or
water." Lot proved his worthiness to the Lord by taking the strangers
(angels) in, offering them food, water, wine and shelter.The idea
that God's judgement had anything to do with homosexuality is a late
interpretation by Christianity and Islam, but still not held by the Jews.As the story is of Jewish origin, perhaps we should defer to their
interpretation. Google "Sodom Gomorrah Jewish views."I find
it difficult to base modern law on some religions' misinterpretation of
their own scripture.
@ dmcveyThe common argument that someone who advocates on behalf of
traditional marriage and family values is a religious bigot is just another way
of saying that there is no real basis for their opinion other than senseless
social conditioning. I agree that it is wrong. Beliefs on both sides of the
gay-straight controversy are to an important degree biologically driven and
should be equally respected.I fully support LGBT civil rights and am
saddened by the long-standing abuse they have suffered. Still, that is no
reason to vilify religion.
After several generations reliable undisputed data demonstrates that poverty and
educational level directly affects marriage stability. Moreover, several
generations of convicted felon harm and abuse has occurred in opposite sex
married families and directly impacts marriage stability. Yet after
generations of evidence, why no demands for a parental fitness test for civil
marriage eligibility. Convictions, educational and income level etc. Why?Why single out and target same-sex couples for vile animus,
where the only reliable objective main stream evidence is positive outcomes? Why? Please educate me. Why? The only conclusion has to be bigotry
and prejudice, and no other legitimate and rational reason.
@ I Know it...Was traditional voting redefined by including women in the
institution of voting? If so, please explain how. History shows us that
marriage is not defined by those who are excluded. Otherwise, why would we allow
opposite sex felon child and spousal abusers to civil marry? Interracial
couples wanted to participate in the institution that traditionally did not
allow them to marry. Tradition is simply not a valid reason to continue a
practice of discrimination. There are no Interracial marriage licenses.
There are no felony marriage licenses. There are no non-procreative
marriage licenses. Allowing same-sex couples to also participate and/or
strengthen the existing institution, means there is only ONE marriage for all.
Nothing has been re-defined. Look no further than "traditional voting"
which was NOT "re-defined" nor did it become genderless by allowing
women another gender, the right to vote. A right to marry someone for which
there is no attraction or desire of intimacy is simply no right at all. The
"redefinition argument" is a logical fallacy
@ JSB @ The TruthJSB: Instead of attacking Laggie, you should be
grateful that he/she had the courtesy of replying to your comment. Your long
term harm, is abstract and without any foundation. We have heard it a thousand
times and still without any basis on reality.The Truth:
Destruction?? Your side it seems the only group wanting to see destruction to
feel you are on the right. We LGBT are not for destruction, on the contrary, we
are on the side of building a better society for ALL.10 years of
marriage is not long enough for you. 10 years of marriage and 40 years of
producing the teenagers and children that are/will be members of the new
generation. Our children will continue as we (you and I) pass. Children of LGBT
are Intelligent, Caring and well centered individuals. Most of them are straight
and a percentage of them are LGBT as in the rest of society. The difference with
our LGBT children is that they grow up in a caring and accepting environment.
@I know it. I Live it. I Love it: "I suppose if you're
willing to re-define marriage, it only makes sense that you'd re-define the
word "violent" too. I guess any other opinions aside from your own must
automatically be violent."Denying or actively attempting to deny
equal rights is inherently violent, there no redefining of anything about that,
regardless of the spin doctoring or supposed religious justification."Makes sense, in an abstract... nonsensical kind of way."Tell that to the families that are the target of the discrimination, bigotry
and hate that is directed at them. Those who are not the target of this ugly,
evil violence do not get to define it or it's impact.
JSB, gay marriage doesn't hurt heterosexual marriage. Only heterosexuals
can do that. You know what does hurt heterosexual marriage?
Encouraging gay people to marry people of the opposite sex.
"RocketScience""Since the legalization of SSM in Mass there
has been an increasing infusion of pro-gay material being taught in the schools
and to increasingly younger and younger children."Sources? Are you referring to the incidents presented in commercials against Prop
8? Or is there new information? Can you provide specifics?What is
"pro-gay" material? Is it "prro-gay" to teach
children to treat those whose family structure (single parent households,
grandparents raising kids, different race, lesbian/gay etc) is different than
their own with respect and kindness?
@ marxist - Salt Lake City, UT - @LasVegaspam "The Williams Institute at
UCLA School of Law, a gay and lesbian think tank, released a study in April 2011
estimating based on its research that just 1.7 percent of Americans between 18
and 44 identify as gay or lesbian,..." I had a look at this
research. There is a difference between identity and behavior. While those
identifying as gay constituted a low percentage, those having some degree of
same sex sexual encounter was as high as 8%. ....... We shouldn't
cherry pick data."Whether it's 1.7% or even 8%, that's
still waaaaaaaaay a minority of the population. And I'll go even further
and state that even if 8% of the population, that 8% is able to, unfortunately,
exert far, far more influence than they deserve.A heterosexual
can't swing a dead cat without somehow encroaching on the rights of a dozen
homosexuals. Mention you're against homosexuality and you're a bigot.
If an athlete tweets he is against homosexuality, he's booted off the
team, etc. Ironically, you are doing the very thing you decry:
cherry picking data and trying to deduce that a vast minority deserve a majority
of the influence.
Ajax, where has heterosexual orientation ever been described as
"opposite-sex attraction and family values are described as the result of
frivolous social conditioning?" I've never heard anyone say that
anywhere. And if someone did they would either be satirical or absoulutely
ernest T: in a generation my kids will be thankful I held to truths in the
scriptures, thankful I supported marriage between a man and a woman and fought
for it. Many many lives will be bless for it. In due time everyone will come to
Bob A. Bohey,I suppose if you're willing to re-define marriage,
it only makes sense that you'd re-define the word "violent" too. I
guess any other opinions aside from your own must automatically be violent.Makes sense, in an abstract... nonsensical kind of way.
@LovelyDeseret said: Radical gays have done a great job of
convincing everyone that if you don't agree with them you are a horrible
personTry this on. Do you like how it fits?Radical
religious extremists have done a great job of convincing everyone that if you
don't agree with them you are a horrible person.
@LovelyDeseret 11:18 p.m. March 2, 2014Radical gays have done a
great job of convincing everyone that if you don't agree with them you are
a horrible person. There a few states left where people are allowed to
think for themselves and not be intimidated into agreeing.-----------------------Let me correct your comment. It should
read: "Radical ANTI-gays have done a great job of convincing people that if
you don't agree with them you are a horrible person."BTW --
I agree that there a few states left where people are allowed to think for
themselves and not be intimidated into agreeing. Maine, Maryland and Washington
are good examples of that fact.
Snapdragon said:No religion is hostile against LGBT individuals.
Supporting traditional marriage is not a form of hatred.Make no
mistake, to deny equal rights to a minority group is a violent act and
inherently hostile. It matters not what justification is put forth in support of
"Social consequences can take decades to show, 5 or 10 years is nothing. It
is absurd to think you will learn anything in just a few years."What we do know is the decades of harm that has been done to men and women out
of concern for our soles. We've been told for years by the experts that we
are perverts, evil, and unworthy of the blessings of heaven, and it often takes
years to overcome those fiery darts that wound us. Unfortunately, too many fall
prey to the lies and wind up taking their own lives. I honestly
believe that the LDS leadership is guiding its members in small steps to make
amends for the harm that has been done to its LGBT members. Unfortunately, some
are slow to accept change and unwilling to accept us in their chapels. Things
will happen, but perhaps He is waiting for the pharisees and Zoramites to
experience a change of heart first.
A wise philosopher once said, "be excellent to each other."If you believe a lifestyle is wrong, that is something for you and you alone
to base your life around. Be excellent to others who, while living a lifestyle
you might disagree with, are still human beings who deserve common respect.
Radical gays have done a great job of convincing everyone that if you don't
agree with them you are a horrible person. There a few states left where
people are allowed to think for themselves and not be intimidated into agreeing.
I wonder what the results would have been if a similar poll had been taken in
Sodom and Gomorrah prior to their destruction.
@JSB "Perhaps people really realize that gay marriage will bring on more
and more marriage aberrations until marriage is meaningless."If
marriage is meaningless why not look in the mirror for blame? You
have no problem with laying out the legal civil marriage red carpet for
convicted felon spousal, child, drug and alcohol abusers where known harm
exists. If those aren't aberrations then I don't know what is. Targeting only same-sex couples shows vile animus. Blaming same-sex
couples for the failure of heterosexuals to act in a certain way has no rational
basis in civil marriage law.
@ JSBThe divorce rate among heterosexual couples is 50%. If anyone
is threatening to make marriage meaningless, it's us.
JSB says it well. That is a way of looking at this issue that many people do
not talk about. Also, maybe many people are "supporting" gay
marriage because they are scared--if anyone speaks out about gay marriage and
supports traditional, they are told they are homophobic, haters, etc. And that
isn't the case. One can still support traditional marriage, yet not be
hostile towards gays.
Religions should not try to control non members by influencing government.
@ MacfarrenThe state does not regulate sex. Unmarried people, of
all sexual orientations, are having sex every single day.
@1aggieSocial consequences can take decades to show, 5 or 10 years
is nothing.It is absurd to think you will learn anything in just a
few years.The destruction of the moral infrastructure of our
country, destruction of the family, destruction of the holy institution of
marriage, can NEVER be a good thing in the long run.To believe
otherwise you are kidding yourself.These polls do not mean anything
because people will say things publically (to pollsters) that are publically
popular or believed to be politically correct ( a communist coined term to
publically pressure people into thinking and behaving a certain way).But in private and in voting booths, the same people say differently. For
example in every state there was a law or amendment to vote on in regards to
marriage, it has passed.The polls lie, they just record what people
are willing to say publically. And if the young think differently it is because
of indoctrination in schools and culture and peer pressure of political
correctness and the failure of their parents to teach right and from wrong.
Witnessing your fellow Utah citizens obtaining the identical rights you have is
not an infringement on your rights or beliefs. Not being able to unjustifiably
force people to conform to how you want them to be, isn't an infringement
on your freedoms.
Interesting results considering intimate relationships between members of the
same sex will never be normal behavior. Mother Nature will never be on the side
of acceptance of gay relationships.
This is certainly not the first time society has gone in the wrong direction in
a misplaced desire to be politically correct. Live and learn. In the meantime,
we'll sadly have to suffer the consequences. And it won't be pretty.
@Laggie10 years is hardly "long term." That's like
someone saying that they smoked cigarettes for a week and felt no negative
health consequences. What will the social consequences of gay marriage be in
three or four generations? That's what concerns me. But thanks for the
comment. My comment got 25 likes and out of 60 comments and you are
the only person to take issue with it. Why? Perhaps people really realize that
gay marriage will bring on more and more marriage aberrations until marriage is
meaningless. Which, I suspect is the hidden agenda of many of the people who are
pushing for gay marriage.
"As more people realize that they have a gay neighbor or friend or family
member, the reality of that relationship crashes into — and destroys
— their stereotypes and preconceptions."Before he was
killed Harvey Milk said, "Every gay person must come out. As difficult as it
is, you must tell your immediate family. You must tell your relatives. You must
tell your friends if indeed they are your friends. You must tell the people you
work with. You must tell the people in the stores you shop in. Once they realize
that we are indeed their children, that we are indeed everywhere, every myth,
every lie, every innuendo will be destroyed once and all."Religion thrives on "us vs them" paradigms, and religious leaders need
outsiders and boogeyman to scare the flock into obedience. Those images lose
their force when that distant threat turns into your son or daughter, your
brother or sister, your neighbor or friend or colleague. The real fear driving
the anti-gay agenda is Gays being seen as "people" and divisive
religious leaders needing to manufacture a new threat to keep their flock in
One must not forget to read Leviticus 11:9-12. So, how many of the non-supports
of equality regularly disobey this passage and create "abomination unto
you"? My point is, it becomes highly hypocritical to selectively interpret
the bible for your own gain and yet claim to be in full compliance with the
words of God.
Trends are happening faster and faster in these modern times. How long did it
take for the trend away from kings to take place. When that happened in
1776-1789 here in the US though, it was only for white men who owned land. Even
though Abigail Adams is quoted often about telling her husband to don't
forget the women, it wasn't until the early 1900's that women were
able to vote. The big fight over the Bill of Rights which was fought to get the
constitution passed and was eventually passed during the first congressional
session was basically forgotten until the 1900's when it was used as the
vehicle to pass civil rights. Now we have groups all over the place that are
fighting for rights the rest of us take for granted and the fact is, they are
discriminated against and should have the rights our founding fathers talked
about, even if only for white men. It seems to me that religions that base their
theology on salvation for all should embrace rights for all as well. Christ was
harder on the power elite than he was on the sinner.
The report of the Study sub-headlines with "Nearly one-third of Millennials
who left childhood religion cite negative church teachings about gay and lesbian
people as important factor" This quote suggests the religious are against
persons - That is not the case, biblical teaching is against the acts of
homosexuality while loving the person. I must admit the LGBT effort
has been very effective and the campaign is working as shown by the shifting
numbers. Since the legalization of SSM in Mass there has been an increasing
infusion of pro-gay material being taught in the schools and to increasingly
younger and younger children. It is also now very interesting that
the LGBT community is more and more calling itself LGBTQ - the Q being
questioning, and the effort to suggest to those younger and younger that if they
have not yet found their sexual identity they should at least consider that they
may be LGBT.
As a Gay man,Christian and a student of the scriptures I contend: That the
Bible does not content all the teachings of the Lord. That the Bible is a
collection of books chosen by men to satisfy their personal set of beliefs and
many times of those ecclesiastical and secular powers who order and/or supported
the work.That the Bible has suffered from inaccurate translations to
satisfy the establishment and /or concepts learned through tradition. e.g. Jesus
and the healing of the Centurion servant, who may also be translated as his male
lover.It seems that those opposed to SSM needs to decide if they
want to continue opposing it at the legal level, or oppose it as a matter of
faith limited to their churches and personal lives.I see in our
liberation a fulfillment of the gospel. Therefore , I would like to call your
attention to Gamaliels' advice Acts 5:39 " But if it is from God, you
will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting
against God"May the Holy Ghost direct your thoughts and lives
and give you humility to accept what you know is right i.e. Love
"I wonder if people who favor same sex marriage consider its long term
negative social consequences."Same-sex marriage has been legal
in MA for 10 yrs. Iowa, CT and VT 5+ yrs. Still waiting to hear of
the negative social consequences. More and more heterosexuals are
seeing that legalized same-sex marriages have few if any consequences to their
own lives and have not been shown to be detrimental to society. If
we are really concerned about the family we would be mobilized around
strengthening/improving schools and job opportunities, and practicing family
planning. There is ample research which demonstrates the negative consequences
to children and families by poverty.
I am amazed that 3% is rewriting the dictionary and we are buying it because of
spiritual ignorance. I guess if you insist on calling the tail of a dog a leg
you believe the lie that a god has five legs? As for me whenever I see a dog it
only has four legs and a tail. Wake up and stand up for the truth.
I understand that those who are not members of the LDS Church will dismiss this
as not being part of their belief but those who are members of the LDS should
recall scripture and proclamation in regard to shifting polls. "And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity,
then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the
time he will visit you with great destruction.""WE. . . the
Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of
God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal
destiny of His children.""WE WARN that individuals who
violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to
fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God.
Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon
individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and
The population of Sodom and Gomorrah thought they were above God's law
also, I know which side I'm on!
There are three monotheistic traditions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. All
three believe they are an exclusive club and their beliefs are approved by an
all powerful deity. Jews take their special status and turn inward,
imposing complex rules on themselves while making it hard for outsiders to ever
be part of the club. Jews generally want to be left alone to live and practice
their religion in their community; they identify "persecution" as being
forced into ghettos, then being sent to concentration camps and executed. Christians, in America and some other countries, want the rules of their
club to be laws that apply to all citizens. When their neighbors object, saying
"we aren't members of your club and don't want government force to
make us live under the rules of your club," many Christians claim they are
suffering persecution and loss of their religious rights and freedom.
How is other people getting the same rights as you "shoving" anything
down your throat? You will not be forced to approve of or support gay marriage.
You can go on discriminating and preaching hate as you do now. No one will
force you or your church into anything. The way other people look at you might
change--but that's not a matter of your rights being infringed upon.
That's just the way the world works--just as people who discriminated
against racial minorities aren't looked on in a positive way now--but civil
rights for African Americans also weren't "shoved down your
polls,I read the other day where only 8 - 10 percent of women wanted to have
combat roles in the military. But it was portrayed that everyone wanted it. So I
wonder what and how the questions were asked to get the results of this survey.
Really???My point is that opposite sex attraction and family value
beliefs are as biologically based as is same-sex attraction.Otherwise, you are right. I apologize. All the best.
It is incomprehensible to me that Christians would abandon what they know to be
correct and Biblically legal, and turn to accepting and approving voluntary
debauchery. We now live in a land, where history repeats itself: each man did
what was right in his own eyes...instead of 'what sayeth the Lord'.
He is coming back, and He is not all that happy. We, i.e., this nation will pay
a price, and God will bring His people to their knees. Instead of this nation
getting better and repenting, we are getting worse. We will get what we
deserve. The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to say
nothing. Like King David: I hate the doers of iniquity.
@Snapdragon who said:"No religion is hostile against LGBT individuals.
Supporting traditional marriage is not a form of hatred."Suppose
I were to say, "I love and respect my Mormon [or white, or accountant, or
any group] friends and neighbors. I just don't think they should be
allowed to marry."Would you believe I truly love and respect
them? or would you see it for the hateful statement that it is?Hiding one's hate behind "love and respect" -- or even God -- may
support their cognitive dissonance, but it doesn't remove the hate.[And no, I would never say such a thing about my Mormon (or other)
neighbors. My respect for them includes extending to them ALL the benefits of a
I believe BYU does a yearly poll on this for Utah residents. I suspect there is
a similar trend even among the active Mormon population. As a college professor
I know the younger generation overwhelmingly supports Gay marriage. Most of my
students are puzzled by the opposition of the older generation.
Marriage, as far as the state is concerned, is a contract that has nothing to do
with love, and everything to do with sex. The state doesn't care one way or
another if two individuals love each other. No one, gay or otherwise, needs a
marriage license to have the state 'recognize' their 'love.'
What the state is doing is regulating the act of sex. It has always regulated
the act of sex. Prostitution, for instance, is illegal (unless you are in
Nevada). Sex with and among minors is also illegal. The state has a vested
interest in regulating sexual activity for the good of society, and for the good
of the potential children that arise from the sexual act. The state takes the
marriage contract serious enough that if one spouse is sexually unfaithful to
the other, there is grounds for legal divorce. It is not about 'love'
and 'feelings', it is about strengthening the fabric of society by
upholding the sexual relationship that society is based on: married husband and
wife, male and female. It has always been so, up until the other day when Eric
Holder decided to unilaterally become a law unto himself.
@ IndeMakSouth Jordan, UTre: "Nobody has asked me. My opinion
won't change."But which opinion do we codify into the US
Constitution or Civil Marriage law? What about the Episcopal,
Unitarian, Reformed Judaism, Quaker and Buddhist religious beliefs that
celebrate, honor and perform same-sex marriages. Why don't they get a say?
@ Snapdragon"No religion is hostile against LGBT individuals.
Supporting traditional marriage is not a form of hatred."A few
weeks ago the DN published a letter from a homeless shelter employee who told of
five Mormon children who had sought help from the shelter in less than a week.
Each one of them was gay/lesbian. Why don't you ask them if their religion
feels hostile to them.
“Many believe in “traditional marriage.” Many believe what
their ministers and scriptures tell them: that a marriage is a sacrament
instituted between God and a man and a woman for society’s benefit. They
may be confused —even angry—when a decision such as this one seems
to call into question that view. These concerns are understandable and deserve
an answer. Our religious beliefs and societal traditions are vital to the fabric
of society. Though each faith can define marriage for themselves, at issue here
are laws that act outside that protected sphere. Once the government attaches
benefits to civil marriage, it must do so constitutionally. It cannot impose a
faith-based limitation upon a public right without a sufficient justification
for it. Assigning a religious or traditional rationale for a law, does not make
it constitutional when that law discriminates against a class of people without
other reasons. The beauty of our Constitution is that it accommodates our
individual faith’s definition of marriage while preventing the government
from unlawfully treating us differently. This is hardly surprising since it was
written by people who came to America to find both freedom of religion and
freedom from it.”
IndeMak said: "Nobody has asked me. My opinion won't change."I agree.Those who are waiting for ALL of us to get on broad
and agree with SSM are going to have a verrrry long wait that will still see
them disappointed in winning over all of us. Won't EVER happen.
Pretty soon gay marriage will be legal in every state once the Supreme Court
steps in and does right by the Constitution. Soon after, gay marriage will be
firmly entrenched in our culture and most people won't give it much
thought.Times are a changin ... for the best!
It is easier to love our brothers and sisters who experience same-sex attraction
when they are not combining in a militant effort to do harm to the values and
institutions others hold dear and sacred. "Can't we just get
So many controversial issues, that so many people have opposed, have come to
pass.Each week another state in our country is having their ban on gay
marriage overturned by our judicial system.This appears to be so very
difficult for so many to accept, doesn't it?I hope all of these
people will be ok.
examplestobacco cigaretts 1920-1944nudity in film 1954nudity
on tvmarijuana in colorado 2013can you add to this list?certainly ! easily !Vice is a monster of so frightful mienAs
to be hated needs but to be seen;Yet seen too oft, familiar with her
face,We first endure, then pity, then embrace.” Alexander Pope, 1668-1744
I don't think I will ever be embarrassed for firmly standing with
traditional marriage. While I am not opposed to a civil union answer for all
Americans, straight or gay, marriage is a term with a specific connotation that
cannot be molded to fit another definition. I do believe two people of the same
sex can love one another, however the biological capacity to create a family,
not to mention the substitution of same sex parents for man/woman can have a
lasting impact on the family. I hear the argument that "it
doesn't affect you, so why should you care?" so often I want to scream.
Did the television affect families and how they interacted? Has the feminism
movement affected families and how children are raised? Has pornography affected
families and their fathers or mothers? There is no doubt of the rise of SSM
support, but "what is popular isn't always right. What is right
isn't always popular."
Polls? Public perception is not always correctly represented by polls. I do
agree that our society is degenerating to a place that is in direct opposition
with God but I didn't need a poll to tell me that, its all around and its
been foretold in the Holy scriptures. There was a comment that stated "our
children will look back and be embarassed by the opposition that we have taken
against same sex marriage". I dont think that at all. In fact I see a time
when our children will look back at our time and say that they were inspred that
we stood strong for the principles that we believed in under immense social
pressure. Society may change but the principles we have are strong and they are
always the same.
These polls more than likely " clearly reflect" how many of us are tired
of hearing about gay rights night and day. Representing some where around 1%
of the population, they get 90% of the air time.
The nation’s first black attorney general, Mr. Holder has said he views
today’s gay-rights campaigns as a continuation of the civil rights
movement that won rights for black Americans in the 1950s and ’60s. He has
called gay rights one of “the defining civil rights challenges of our
time.” Are you listening church members?
Lasvegaspam:Assuming those Williams Institute figures are actually
correct, 1.7% is equivalent of pouring a cup of tap water into a lake. Why all
the histrionics? 15% of Americans claim not to have any religious belief and
that doesn't stop people from going to church if they want.Look, when people are forced to break up their "traditional marriages"
and gay marry under force of law, then the anti-gay side will have a point.
Until then, they just sound petty and paranoid.
Perversion is still perversion no matter whether married or not.
"Marriage is a religious institution"Only for some. But for
everyone in the US it is a civil contract.
Opposing same sex marriage is portrayed as discrimination and bigoted.Discrimination used to be considered a good thing. It was a compliment to be
told you had discriminating tastes. It was an insult to be described as having
no discrimination.Nobody wants to see anyone sent to the back of the
bus because of their color. That kind of discrimination is wrong and everyone
knows it.I discriminated against all men in my dating habits.I
also discriminated against all women I did not find attractive.It is
impossible to make any decision involving money that does not discriminate
against everyone you don't give the money to.The only
difference between freedom and a dictatorship is: Who makes the decisions (A
free man makes his own decisions. In a dictatorship decisions are imposed). If
you outlaw discrimination, you outlaw freedom.As the long term
effects of same sex marriage become apparent, this will reverse.There is a
reason that use of procreative powers outside of real marriage are prohibited.
A boy watches T.V. every day, it tells him "this isn't wrong, we should
accept them"It repeats every day, but we dare not call media
"conditioning" or "influencing"Now a teenager,
he's bombarded with influence to avoid consequence, that feelings
aren't wrong, and that those who teach anything else are unfair, they hate
you, and could never love you.The young man looks at porn every
night, with all sorts of perversions of natural intimacy presented to him. He
thinks "I enjoyed this, so was I born attracted to it?"He
determines that he is, after what could only be a perfect deduction without any
consideration of the truthfulness of the premises or the cogency of the
conclusion.Now with an unchallengeable conviction, popular support
and with the comradery of 'being a minority', he proclaims "who he
is" and demands acceptance & recognition./////4
Facts:1 - You can't "condition" your natural anatomical
design.2 - You can condition the moral tolerance of a behavior.3 -
The act, social movements and moral acceptance don't bring you love.4 - God loves you. Simply return to Him and you'll find what
you've been wanting the entire time.
CONTINUED:Even if only 1.8% of the population were gay, that is over
5 million people in the United States. I consider those of us who were raised in
the LDS church to be the lost sheep talked about in the bible. We aren't
lost because we have sinned, but we are lost because we have been kicked out,
ignored, demeaned, and abandoned. Many of us have tried to stay with
the flock, but it is hard to remain when you are constantly being bombarded with
thoughts that you aren't good enough, aren't as faithful, and are
sinners. It's hard to feel like you should remain when people stop sitting
with you at the meetings. I am grateful for people like those in
Mormons Building Bridges who are reaching out from the flock and showing love to
the lost sheep. They, in my opinion, are following Christ's teachings.
Their efforts are the first step in making is feel like we do belong; that we
are a part of the community.
"Why is it, though, that while same-sex attraction is accepted as biological
and innate, opposite-sex attraction and family values are described as the
result of frivolous social conditioning?"Who has said that? The
argument usually goes "when did you choose to be strait?" We honor your
rights to marry to partner of your choice and establish and raise a family
according to your beliefs. Honestly, most of us would be content to
not be out in the public pushing for our right. I would rather just quietly live
my life and not see these laws that are meant to remind me that I am not
natural. I, like others, miss feeling like we are a valued part of our churches
and communities. Even on here, when we express our years of prayers
to change that went unanswered, our experiences get shot down. Some of you tell
us we haven't tried hard enough. While well-intentioned, your testimonies
feel like a call to repentance for something we honestly can't change.
Nobody has asked me. My opinion won't change.
I personally am opposed to gay marriage. However, the case on the Utah
referendum is very troubling. Justice Anthony Kennedy of the Supreme Court has
emphasized states' rights on this issue. Charles Krauthammer has opined
that the American people will eventually approve this issue. In spite of the
legal issues, there are forces at work in the judiciary to take away the
"rights of the people". That is the real issue here. If the people
decide that gay marriage is a basic right and not one solitary judge, then the
U.S. Constitution must be upheld. The problem will be when this so called right
spills over into the area of religion. This has already begun to happen.
Issues in regard to the health care mandate should have alarmed each and every
These articles skew the real issues. Gay unions are acceptable to most
everyone. Gay Marriages go against beliefs. We are taught to love the person
and condemn the sin. Marriage is a religious institution whereas legal unions
denote rights and privileges under the law. I oppose forcing others to accept
your way of life as much as I oppose people being denied to right to freely
associate with whomever they choose.
This is one more change to the "Normal" brought about by pioneers in
change. This is not unique in history: end of slavery, establishment of
Unions, women's rights and even the end of the Viet Nam war was largely due
to those who took personal and professional risk to effect change.What is
@LasVegaspam "The Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law, a gay and
lesbian think tank, released a study in April 2011 estimating based on its
research that just 1.7 percent of Americans between 18 and 44 identify as gay or
lesbian,..." I had a look at this research. There is a
difference between identity and behavior. While those identifying as gay
constituted a low percentage, those having some degree of same sex sexual
encounter was as high as 8%. Apparently we don't have a good handle on the
percentage of the population which is gay, but it appears to be pretty high. We
shouldn't cherry pick data.
I don't understand those who maintain "God has spoken." For
example, in Corinthians we're told, "Let your women keep silence in the
churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak." I don't hear
anyone demanding women keep silent in church. No one takes that scripture
literally. This is just one example of many. Why insist that an obscure
scripture in Leviticus is God's word and should be taken literally? I
don't understand. What I do understand is my deep and abiding
love for my dear son and my wonderful gay friends. I love them! I have wept
tears of deep sorrow over this issue. I try to stay faithful to the Church, but
it is so difficult.
To quote an ancient prophet:"Now it is not common that the voice
of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is
common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right;
therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business
by the voice of the people."And if the time comes that the voice
of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God
will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great
destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land."
The only downside of this piece is the lack of empathy society has heretofore
instilled in each of us. Why does it take knowing a gay friend or relative to
drive compassion toward their plight? I too justified homophobic tendencies
because I was self-righteous and a good follower. But to what end? If a person
with whom I've become acquainted fears reprisal for expressing a part of
their identity and perhaps ruining the relationship, what does that say about
me? Life is simply too short to hold grudges against people and their choices. I
applaud the younger generation who, after being exposed to unfamiliar ways of
living, are led toward tolerance and love rather than skepticism and hatred.
It is interesting that those accuse people of being on the wrong side of
history. If history is on the wrong side of God than I better be on the wrong
side of history.
I can appreciate the frustration of those of same-sex attraction. Their stand
on equal civil rights in my view is constitutionally firm. Why is it, though,
that while same-sex attraction is accepted as biological and innate,
opposite-sex attraction and family values are described as the result of
frivolous social conditioning? Closer to the truth is a
gay-straight divide over separate perspectives on adaptive and maladaptive
biological imperatives. To encapsulate the debate as civil rights vs. religious
bigotry is to seriously mischaracterize the issue.
Kalindra said,"The article leaves out parts of the survey - such
as which religions are viewed as hostile to LGBT individuals and issues."No religion is hostile against LGBT individuals. Supporting traditional
marriage is not a form of hatred.
In a generation from now kids are going to be embarrassed their parents ever
fought against gay marriage. It will happen. Nobody's life will be worse
because of it, but many, many people will have it better because of it. Time to accept it.
It matters not what polls or public opinion means. It only matters to what our
Heavenly Father has stated through his chosen mouth pieces. That is that any
sexual relations outside of marriage as defined between man and woman is an
abomination before him. This includes all sexual relations between men and
women who are not married and any homosexual act. Therefore, it is up to those
of us who hold to the Lord's word to voice that to everyone. Whether you
wish to obey or not is up to you, but remember gay lifestyle is not condoned nor
allowable to the Lord. It calls for total repentance and to abstain from any
sexual relationship except as defined.
This isn't a political issue, it's a moral issue, and God has spoken
on this moral issue. We're in dire need of repentance on a statewide and
national scale, and in living again under God's will.
To "Schnee" who responded to my post by referring to problems of
"statistical averages" (are there any other kind?), I suggest you reread
the last two paragraphs of my post.
The article leaves out parts of the survey - such as which religions are viewed
as hostile to LGBT individuals and issues.
@samhillStatistical averages are problematic to use for setting up laws
like your side uses for same-sex marriage. What if we looked at race and which
situation is "ideal"? What about income? Should we ban poor people from
Religion is losing its' ability to maintain the stereotypes that reality is
I wonder if people who favor same sex marriage consider its long term negative
social consequences. If the criteria for marriage is simply that people love and
are committed to each other, then it won't be long before
"marriages" of three or more people, same sex or heterosexual, are also
legalized. After all, if they claim to love each other why shouldn't they
be able to be married? There are already many "families" like this who
are anxiously hoping that same sex marriage will be legalized so they can then
have their relationships receive legal status as well. Just imagine the social
chaos that will follow in the wake of gay marriage. Do we really want this? It
will make marriage meaningless and seriously undermine the traditional family.
Golly gee. I wonder if those increasing poll numbers have ANYTHING to do with
the Gay Agenda that has been shoved down our throats? We can’t watch a
tv show without having a gay character pop up. We can’t watch a news
broadcast without having a gay issue being debated. You would think that half
the country is gay, wouldn’t you?! But you’d be way, way off. In an article entitled, "Americans Have No Idea How Few Gay People
There Are" published May 31, 2012, in The Atlantic magazine, we learn: The
Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law, a gay and lesbian think tank, released
a study in April 2011 estimating based on its research that just 1.7 percent of
Americans between 18 and 44 identify as gay or lesbian, while another 1.8
percent -- predominantly women -- identify as bisexual.
I, too, want to make a prophecy. By 2024, the majority of those still against
gay marriage will do the mental gymnastics necessary to convince themselves that
they were never really against gay marriage in the first place. Even some of the
doomsayers, I bet!
This is just a fulfillment of prophecy! This doesn't mean society is
developing but instead degenerating. Congratulations to the young woman doing as
the Savior commanded the woman caught in adultery, as he told her to go her way
and sin no more. As the Savior declared if ye love me keep my commandments.
"PRRI's chief executive officer Robert P. Jones sees the changes as
evidence of a national shift, particularly among younger evangelical
Protestants, in attitudes on homosexuality overall."--------------Actually, the greater correlation is that of a rapidly declining
reverence for marriage of any kind.I think it is a very ominous sign
of a general disregard for what are almost dismissively called "family
values" by a growing percentage of younger people. Ominous because of all
the mountains of evidence showing that stable, loving, supportive families,
especially with both a father and mother present, give the best chance for
producing stable, loving parents of future families, and people in general.I will end by trying to head off all those who offer the reflexive
response that many very loving, stable, responsible people have come from
families that are little like the "traditional" father/mother lead
family, by stating that I agree completely. I know and have known many such
people and applaud them for their unusual fortitude and self determination.I'd also refer again to the mountains of data showing that outcome
to be atypical and suggest it would be a **good thing** if more people had