So when did everyone that believes in traditional marriage become a racist?Sexual orientation is not a race. Maybe it is a creed, and it
could be genetic? But there is little proof. I understand that all
people are different. We all have our own genetic code.Everyone of
us lives with things that we are born with, the things we were taught as
children and the things we have learned and accepted since we became adults.Our race, is the genetic skin color we were born with, it came from
generations past.Our sexual orientation is far more complicated then
that. But it is just sex, lust with little love associated, only through the
parents to I see love. I have seen little of any of this particular
argument that has anything to do with love. True love, is not selfish.
Love does not need to prove itself, nor does it need be forced on others. Love,
real love is tolerance, freedom and gentle persuasion.In this argument
there is deep hatred.
Too much drama and hyperbole in the comments to the legislature for me to take
it serious. How about being real and sincere?
@ wYo8"And He made them male and female and commanded them to
multiply and replenish the world. The old plumbers knew what they talking about
when they named couplers for pipe male and female." Maybe the
old plumbers did not know about intersex people? Your argument is based on the
assertion that A) all people are male and female,therefore, B)old plumbers knew
what they were doing when they named pipes male and female. The premise of your
argument is incorrect. This is the reality: A) Not all people are clearly male
or female bodied. Intersex people do not fit within your definition of human
existence and have been shamed and surgically altered out of existence so as to
not challenge people's ideas about human existence. Most people, including
plumbers and most doctors for that matter, do not even know about the existence
of intersex people so they can only name things after what they do know. It is
this way because intersex people scare the heck out of people who have to
categorize everyone into a dichotomous (male/female)paradigm for their own
@ wYo8Your paranoia is silly. The First Amendment is still around,
so there will be no same-sex marriage ceremonies inside an LDS temple. Also,
why would that be their goal? They just want their marriages to be legally
CB, I appreciate your thoughtful response. Here's the problem, in every
instance of the now defunct ex-gay movement Exodus, claims of change and
chastity were not realized over the long term. Christianity Today reported,
"Alan Chambers Apologizes to Gay Community, Exodus International to Shut
Down." - 6/21/2013. So, no change, and chastity is an unlikely scenario.
Gays are as likely to have crushes and fall in love as their straight siblings -
that's how it works. Thirty-five years ago in SLC I asked every gay person
I met these questions: When did you know you were gay? Are you OK with being
gay? I must have asked 500 people and I distinctly remember the one Mormon kid
from Wyoming that was not happy; his family threw him out of the house and would
not speak to him - just one. Forty years ago, I fell in love (once) and I am in
that same wonderful, loving, monogamous same-sex relationship today - life has
been really quite wonderful and I cannot imagine it any other way. Love and
family are values that I cannot live without - and no one should be asked to.
And He made them male and female and commanded them to multiply and replenish
the world. The old plumbers knew what they talking about when they named
couplers for pipe male and female. Their ultimate goal will be to force the LDS
church to allow gay marriage in the temple. One step at a time and we are almost
Unfortunately, all of these arguments about "religious freedom" are
baseless.Either being gay is not a choice, which would be covered by
the 14th amendment.Or is isn't, which means that person has a belief
that, according to those who believe in "traditional marriage", should
be protected and valued by the government.There really just
isn't any other arguments. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but
not to enforce that opinion on others.
Pack said: "they have a choice about how to handle that attraction and how
they act on that attraction. None of us have any type of choice when it comes to
our race." Awe, but you do have a choice when it comes to
religion. (protected class) So if one chooses a religion that believes in
gay marriage, why do your religious views trump others?Nor have they
found a hetro gene but we're still in the infancy of these sciences.
@pack So you claim it is not the same? I have two questions then one
so are you saying those that are attracted to someone of a different race have
no control of it but gay people do? two, since when is biology the determining
factor if something is discriminatory? Based on that logic we should be able to
discriminate passed on religion, which is clearly a choice. I now In ow the
first amendment says... well guess what the constitution also says people have
the right to not have you trample over their rights.
@ Ranch The pretzel logic that some folks use makes me scratch my head. You are
asking to be treated the same as everybody else, and according to some this is
asking for "special treatment". I don't get it.
@JNA;You're really up in the night and have no clue as to our
"agenda" (equality under the law and the right to receive service from
businesses like EVERYBODY else).
"Equality under the law is the issue, not beliefs. Nobody is asking others
to change their beliefs they are just asking for equitable treatment. That is
not too much to ask"See this is the argument we hear but trust
me when I tell you this has nothing whatsoever to do with their agenda, the gay
and lesbian community want the acquisition of power to control communities and
to make religious organizations bow to their demands or face the loss of
governmental protection. Do not get sucked into the lie.
To Hugh 1 in Colorado, If one of my 3 sons had been gay I would have
told him what I have told my 2 unmarried daughters, obey the Lord's
law on Chasity and deny your human driven desires and wait upon the Lord to make
all things right. Self indulgence can lead to terrible ends.
@Mom of Six.What are you going to say if you have a gay child or
grandchild? Give him the lecture on skin color, and that sexuality is behavior,
and that, "The comparison between the Civil Rights Era is insulting?"
Good grief! Utah, Virginia, Oklahoma, and now Texas have had their
discriminatory laws against same sex marriage overturned. You can repeat it and
repeat it, but it doesn't change the fact. Forget your right to
discriminate - that's over, or will be soon. The battle over same sex
marriage is on. It will likely be settled on Loving v. Virginia, the 1967 SCOTUS
finding that outlawed anti-miscegenation statutes in the old south. You claim
that, "The comparison between the Civil Rights Era is insulting," is in
@PackIsn't the fertility issue irrelevant anyway? There is no
fertility requirement in --ANY-- state for being issued a civil marriage
license. In fact, in the state Utah, for certain couples, there is a specific
requirement that a couple --NOT-- be fertile as a condition for being issued a
marriage license. (Think first cousins here).So why are we
discussing procreation at all as a deal-breaker? Except if one's strategy
is to use the "procreation" argument to exclude same-sex couples.
We as a church should show more compassion for those who struggle with same
gender attraction and being tempted in this area is not a sin but giving in to
it certainly is, just like fornication ,stealing or adultery. If we are not
careful we may begin to compromise the Holy standards of conduct that God
requires of us, and forget to recoil in horror at the terrible price our Savior
paid to deliver us from sin of every type.We must show compassion but never give
license to conduct that leads to spiritual death.
@ Hatch--- So gay people should be tolerant of people treating them like dirt?
When you say tolerance goes both ways, what in the world do you mean? Gays
should just shut up and endure their treatment?
@PackIf neither heteros nor homosexuals have a choice in who
they're attracted to, then what is the basis for expecting homosexuals to
act on this differently than heteros do? The implication is that one
orientation is inferior to the other. This is also the basis of racism.
@Pack I agree with you 100%. The comparison between the Civil Rights Era is
insulting. No one can help the color of their skin. Sexuality is a behavior. No
one has ever found a "gay" gene to prove otherwise. With
that being said, I do not believe in discriminating against people for jobs,
medical, housing etc. This is unfair and unkind. The problem with the gay
agenda is that the radicals want to punish those who do not believe that
homosexuality and heterosexuality are on the same playing field. There are also
those who would like to punish the religious through the court system. Why
can't we just all treat each other fairly? If people don't want to
service homosexual couples, let their business suffer and move on. There are
plenty of businesses that would service anyone. I believe most religious people
are pretty reasonable and kind. It seems though that we are always bringing up
the outliers rather than the norm.
Values Voter, there is a huge difference between an infertility issue which
prohibits procreation and the gay issue which prohibits procreation. The two
can't be compared or argued.
I for one am tired of the gay communities comparison to past racial issues. It
is NOT even close to the same thing. While a gay person may not have a choice
in who they are attracted to, they have a choice about how to handle that
attraction and how they act on that attraction. None of us have any type of
choice when it comes to our race.
Unfortunately we are living in the age prophesied when evil would be called good
and good called evil. The Lord's law of chastity applies to all of
his children, there is no allowance for gender identity, a confusion that,
as earlier stated, was forced upon a young man by his 'one' mother and
16 others'. Have we had a similar hearing for those whose lives have
been grievously impacted by homosexualbehavior? Shouldn't they be
heard as well before passing a law which takes away their right to
'discriminate'? We do discriminate every day, the food that we choose
to eat, the movies we choose to watch, the radio programs we listen too.
The neighborhoods we choose to live in. Why shouldn't we have a right
to choose to rent to those we find desirable to inhabit our property, we have to
pay for, we must pay taxes on, we must keep 'livable" to regain our
investment? 'Special rights' to 'special people'? I could
make the same argument, that I am someone special too, where are my rights?
@ Jamescmeyer"Looking at these people as fellow children of God
in light of what is done in their name is harder than they can ever
imagine."You'll get there (being able to look at us as
fellow children of God, I mean) -- I have faith in you. It will help
if you simply work at taking us as individuals. We're neither all
hedonistic reprobates, nor exemplary saints. Like most individuals, we fall
somewhere on a continuum between those two extremes. Most of us are just trying
to do the best we can and be the best people we can be. When the dust settles,
we're likely going to be regarded as no better and no worse in terms of
character than anyone else.
People supporting the LGBT community want much to be heard, but perhaps
it's time they listened some. On the one hand, they are children of God
who deserve dignity; to be loved and not persecuted.At the same time
these are people who, along with supporters, are bullying us all while desiring
not to be bullied. Arizona struck down a law protecting the religion from being
bullied-an increasing social epidemic nationally, ironically with the
comparatively misplaced fear of gays being the ones bullied.They
want us to recognize their idea of marriage, even if it involves intimidation
and lawlessness, with no recognition for our idea of marriage. Their focus is
on changing marriage almost exclusively, with no visible work to address other
issues such as the radical rates of sexual abuse involved among those
identifying as homosexual, or the prevelance of STDs.While some
advocate the freedom to embrace their attractions, they oppose the freedom of
those who seek to control or change those attractions in themselves.Looking at these people as fellow children of God in light of what is done in
their name is harder than they can ever imagine.
Huge1--If you think such is media invention, then you have never been to a gay
pride parade in San Francisco. The "invention" you describe is real,
rampant, and, at best, mild behavior. Live sex on parade floats may well be the
extreme radical end of gay "experience." But, all of it comes with the
"in your face" gay agenda. Behavior that would get a hetero couple
arrested is tolerated in same sex couples. Equal protection under the law was
something that CA homosexuals demanded and and got(and it's all we want)in
the "Domestic Partners" act. But, after the law was passed they then
revealed the ongoing agenda demanding the right to religious marriage. The CA
Methodist Church acquiesced and looked to the LGBT community as a new source of
revenue in a community where church attendance drops yearly. The LGBT community
is not large enough to take up the slack of the congregation that has fled the
"why I am gay" church events.
@ Isaiah 1:15"But it still eludes me HOW THE STATE can grant
LBGT couples rights which Nature denies them, i.e. the fruits of
procreation?"Honestly, Isaiah, forgive me for being so
repetitious, but your last argument virtually refutes itself. Nature also denies
some heterosexuals (and therefore, some heterosexual couples) "the fruits of
procreation." Do you believe that state should deny those couples rights? --
probably not, and if not, why not?
So impressed with groups of people with differences who are willing to discuss
this in a rational and calm scenario in Salt Lake City.It is frustrating
and sad that those of us in Southern Utah, who would appreciate moderate
political radio programs and political gatherings, have next to nothing in
options other than the ultra conservative group. St. George radio hosts
and many who call into these stations, are filled with a great deal of hate and
bigotry. However, Utah is growing and changing in it's demographics,
so we do have hope for moderation, kindness and understanding in the future.
We decide how life will be! Some things we do as individuals. So much that
happens in life comes from how we work together in our society! It is so
important! I think that the only way we can truly be happy is when we are able
to care about those around us! The reason it has taken so long for gay rights to
get considered is because people never took the time to think or care about it!
We can not have this great nation we live in without considering the rights and
beliefs of others. Nobody wants to take away the beliefs of Mormons or anybody
else! We just want the right to live our own beliefs! It can not happen unless
people are willing to do it!I have a hard time fighting over these things.
I have always cared about people in the Mormon Church.I always somehow felt like
I was a part of them even when I could no longer go! I miss being able to talk
with them! I have to be me! They turn away and it is sad, It doesn't need
to be that way! I have to be me!
I read some of the comments and it is hard to believe thatp eople would say that
this kind of law was needed! For what? We are trying to tell people our stories
show that we care, only to have people slam it down! People feel it is good to
pass laws that specifically devalue and dehumanize others! What people are
screaming out is that their beliefs include the hatred of their fellow man,
because it most certainly isn't love they are showing!No, I have
grown up Mormon and Mormonism has been a part of my entire life! Even as a gay
person, it effects me! My family is Mormon. My friends and co workers are
Mormon. People are going to look me in the face and tell me that I deserve to be
treated with contempt and that it is ok to dirciminate against me! Do people
know what kind of pain comes when you watch the people you have always cared
about trample right over the top of you! They walk on your beliefs, and they
mock our entire lives!
People in Utah need to know that in many places in the world and our country gay
people are not treated with the disdain that is common in Utah. There are many
places where gay people are treated very well and loved for who they are, not
@lehiaggia & @ShimlauI assure you that the guy in the thong, just like
Paris Hilton, is a media invention. When was the last time you saw someone in a
thong? This months Sport's Illustrated? Media inventions. I do get your
point though, and it is appreciated - and I'm sure you get mine. As for
discrimination and gay marriage, I understand that your religious beliefs may be
in conflict - that however is a religious issue for you and your church to deal
with. One in twenty is a middle of the road estimate on the gay population -
that's a lot of family. Same sex marriage should be discussed honestly; I
am convinced this issue will settled in the precedent of Loving v. Virginia.
Even if you don't agree, at least try to see the issue through the eyes of
these parents. If you want another perspective, watch the documentary movie
One thing to think about; If it is equal rights, that's good, but if
I'm and employer and I want to discharge an employee that isn't
performing. All they would have to do, is claim they are Homosexual, and that
they are being discriminated against, and then the state is down on my case for
breaking the law, even though the real reason was lack of performance. This
will open up a big can of worms.
Stop bringing the gay marriage issue into this discussion with your comments.
That issue is very devisive. This type of bill needs to be passed and was almost
passed last year. Don't make it harder by bringing up gay marriage.
People should be treated fairly in employment, housing, etc. However, judges
showing an evil disreguard for the constitution and the 1st amendment use such
"anti-discrimination" laws to deny religious liberties. It has been done
in New Mexico and Washington state. the Edmonds-Tucker laws set precedent in
showing the federal government will trample all over religious liberties to
enforce their idea of marriage.Hugh,"A guy in a thong on a
gay pride parade is a media invention."you've never seen
such parades in Seattle (where I used to live) or in SF.tell me,
what other historical events do you deny? WWII? the cold war? the Kennedy
@DN Subscriber (and others)you wrote:"But, even if
their activities are sanctioned by black-robed judges and thus made legal, that
does not make them moral, right, or beneficial."Let's cut
to the heart of the matter. It appears you believe some version of the
following:ANY and ALL expression(s) of a homosexual orientation are
wrong, immoral, sinful, destructive, unhealthy and so forth. I ask,
why?Let me put forth a different view. My belief is that a
homosexual orientation -- all by itself, (just like a heterosexual orientation)
is morally neutral. The expression of that orientation can be good or bad, wise
or unwise, ethical or unethical, healthy or unhealthy, fulfilling or
unfulfilling, beneficial or not -- depending on a whole host of factors, (just
like the expression of a heterosexual orientation).By overlooking a
shimmering ocean of nuance when it comes to the subject of homosexuality, some
conservative religious people are blinded to the true complexity of human
sexuality. That appears to be changing, even in Utah. I welcome that change.
Our church should get on the right side and take steps away from homophobia
A Mormon family adopted me at birth. I found my natural family after
graduating from high school. My birth sister is openly gay. She also adopted a
boy of color. She and her life partners did everything they could to turn him
gay, like convincing him that kissing girls on the playground was something he
didnt like, and that he need not do things he doesnt like, or putting one
earring in his left ear at age 7. They lived in a woman only commune where
their son could not enter the religious sanctuary because he is male. One of
her life partners (she has had many) was understandably critical of the LDS
stand against the LBGT lifestyle. I pointed out how hypocritical their rules
are. When my nephew graduated from HS, as valedictorian, he and his 13 mommies
threw a party. He had one constant mommy and 12 others during his first 18
years of life! Yes, LBGT couples should obtain tolerance, anti-discrimination,
an apartment, a job etc, by state laws. But it still eludes me HOW THE STATE
can grant LBGT couples rights which Nature denies them, i.e. the fruits of
Heartening to hear that legislators from both sides of the aisle called this
hearing. Open your hearts, Utah! It's your own sons and daughters at issue,
not just the sense of welcome for visitors from out of state.
Unfortunately the antidiscrimination laws will work one way. If you
discrimintate against someone for their orientation you wil be puninshed. If
you discriminate against someone for expressing their opinion that homosexual
behavior is wrong - as most religioms believe, or that marriage is between one
man and one woman, you will get a free pass. The problem with
freedom is that sometimes people use it to do things we do not like. The only
way to stop that is to to take away freedom. However, using the government to
force people to do what we think is right is usually the greater sin.
One might say the norm in history is for mankind in their pride and
self-delusion challenge God's laws with their own ideas. Satan had a
better plan that was less challenging and would hurt no one's feelings. It
is ease of life which has led to this great apostasy. Brigham Young often said
that he feared not persecutions or temporal difficulties - he feared prosperity
and ease which would lead the Saints to reject their faith. This is what is
happening when mothers rise up and break their sacred covenants in
self-righteous defense of their self-indulgent and foolish children. The god of
this world is self-realization without judgement, meaning self-indulgence
without restriction. These are not hateful words. I hate no one. It is hard
for the wicked and rebellious to hear. It may cut to the core and cause burning
indignation and rage, but it is the truth.
A guy in a thong on a gay pride parade is a media invention. Families in Utah
and around the country are typically introduced to the gay world in a
child's tearful confession, "When Joey Eccleston's son told him at
15 that he was gay, he said he was struck by "a lightning flash of
fear."" Parents are often traumatized and the first reaction is to get
help, and to change. Mom and dad are confused when the child says he is
perfectly happy, and the psychologist surprises them with 'there is nothing
to change' and 'it's not possible anyway.' The problem is
clearly not the child's, or the parent's (except their fear), it is
generated by irresponsible segments in society, particularly religious and
political who are in denial - denial that they created the problem.
Irresponsible religious leaders and politicians erect barricades to the
child's well-bring and his or her ability to live a normal and fulfilling
existence. Utah really needs to get over itself on the gay marriage issue, these
are your children. Thanks to all those who participated in the story, your voice
It is going to take a lot more than this to melt the glaciers most Utah
legislators call hearts.@Hatch;We should be tolerant of
you voting on whether or not we get to marry? To work? To live in an
apartment? Absolutely not. You can believe whatever you want and, that, I can
tolerate; but I can't and won't tolerate interference in our right to
equal protection under the law.
If a belief you hold is that I, or my family member, or my friend is an
abomination, or inferior, or immoral, and you have no rational basis for your
belief - indeed, the overwhelming evidence is that it is contrary to the facts
and that the actions arising from this belief cause great harm - I should be
tolerant of this belief? Are you kidding?
@Hatch 10:54 p.m. Feb. 26, 2014Just like people of color should have
been "tolerant" of the racists' beliefs that denied them access to
equality? Equality under the law is the issue, not beliefs. Nobody is asking
others to change their beliefs they are just asking for equitable treatment.
That is not too much to ask.
Understanding and acceptance a must; Creating laws that promote divisiveness
and compel change must be avoided at all costs! If my neighbor won't love
me for who I am, creating a law to compel him to do so will only make him build
a taller fence and look at me with greater suspicion. It doesn't matter
weather it is a democrat or a republican. Both parties and both leaders
patronize everyone by brazenly thinking that all of us are fooled by this
propensity to fix societies problems by compulsion! it never has worked and
never will. Understanding and acceptance comes from both sides willing to live
with each other without pointing a gun at each other.
The "in your face" homosexual activist community and their
"tolerance for me, but not for thee" demands are simply unacceptable.They are well organized, very adept at using social media to choreograph
their events and ensure large turnouts which makes their apparent numbers much
larger than the small minority they actually are.Equal rights, I can
buy that. Special rights, no way! And these days, they are not demanding equal
rights, but rather special rights.I respect their right o love
whomever they like, and really don't care much what they do in their
bedrooms. But, even if their activities are sanctioned by black-robed judges
and thus made legal, that does not make them moral, right, or beneficial.
Sad to hear about the intolerant treatment these people have endured. It is
wrong. But it should work both ways. Straight folks should be tolerant of gay
folks beliefs and gay folks should be tolerant of straight folks beliefs.