They're not 'coming for' anybody. What they're coming for is
your unconstitutional right to have your oppression codified against others.
This kind of rhetoric is just inflammatory.
How ironic. This country was originally settled by people who wanted religious
freedom. Now, 400 years later we are trying to chase freedom out in the name of
sexuality. There is no freedom without freedom of religion. The government
should not force people to do things against their basic religious beliefs.
Especially when it involves moral issues.
Also according to Albert Mohler, "I do not believe that Mormonism leads to
salvation. To the contrary, I believe that it is a false gospel that, however
sincere and kind its adherents may be, leads to eternal death rather than to
eternal life. Indeed, I believe that Mormonism is a prime example of what the
Apostle Paul warned the Church to reject – 'a gospel contrary to the
one we preached to you.'” Can someone please explain to me why this
man keeps getting invited to speak at BYU, or why any Latter-day Saint should
care what he thinks?
@SanAntonioreader: It's because, as LDS people, we are taught to disagree
without being disagreeable, and to work with other religions that share our
values if not always our theology. I could only hope that those who wish both
Mormons and Evangelicals jail time will also come to abide by the same
philosophy.P.S. if you are my sister, HI!
The man is right. The progressive radicals are determined to eventually banish
religion to the far fringe of society...or even worse. Just read the ugly,
hateful comments here and at the SL Trib whenever their is an article that even
remotely relates to religion. You see firsthand a very real, deep seated hatred
for religion. It is dark, evil and scary to behold. And he is right, the pace
they they are moving at is breathtaking. I have no doubt that we
will eventually see the day when we will be forced to either say
"homosexuality is not a sin" or go to jail. Sounds paranoid? Yeah, but
if you had told someone in the '80's or '90's what we would
be dealing with today they would have called you paranoid. Believers
know that all of this craziness is only fulfilling prophesy. This day has been
foretold in the scriptures for centuries. Believers also know how it will all
end. But still, to live in it and through it makes me shudder just a little bit!
I never thought I'd see the day that this Book of Mormon scripture, written
regarding the sign of the 1st Coming of the Savior, might again be fulfilled in
our own day. The way religious rights are being demolished, and the hypocrisy of
those who plead for tolerance and rights, it could happen, sadly. Now it came to pass that there was a day set apart by the unbelievers, that
all those who believed in those traditions should be put to death except the
sign should come to pass, which had been given by Samuel the prophet. 3 Nephi
I for one am overjoyed that BYU invited Mr. Mohler back. BYU and by extension,
the LDS Church, agrees on far more issues with Evangelicals than they disagree.
Doctrinal differences aside, the point of his speech was that Christian voices
must unite instead of divide, when it comes to issues such as liberties.
He's right, "We've forgotten God." If you want evidence of
it, just keep reading the remainder of the reader comments, connected to this
and other like articles, who will cry equality but really preach censorship. If
I say my beliefs are that homosexuality is a sin and marriage shouldn't be
re-defined, I'm labeled as a homophobe and I'm silenced. They claim
equality and preach censorship.
@ Jon W.Thanks for the feedback. I did not advocate being
"disagreeable." At the same time, I believe it would be foolish and
naive to "team up" with people who really believe you are doing the
devil's work. Evangelicals like Mohler are happy to feign friendship and
"use" Mormons when it is convenient, but they do not "share our
values." At least not mine. Since when is denying service/charity to others,
regardless of their beliefs or lifestyles, an LDS value? Shouldn't we be
striving to be more like the good Samaritan than the self-righteous priest and
Levite in Luke 10:30-37? p.s., I am not your sister. :) I'm just a
middle-age grandpa who is more comfortable in the company of my homosexual
friends than "Christians" like Albert Mohler.
Nobody is seeking to persecute anyone for their religious beliefs. (Look up
what "persecute" means sometime. Or read a history book about the
oft-persecuted Jews.) Would that we could say the same, that no one was seeking
to persecute anyone in America for their lack of religious belief. Both things
are constitutionally protected, you know.It seems to me that we
don't have a war on religion. We have a war BY religion, at least
conservative religion, on secular society.As a Quaker, I will defend
the right of Mormons and Evangelicals to worship in any manner they wish. In
their own homes and churches/temples. However, I will not surrender my own
right to worship and to hold beliefs and to offer religious rites to those WE
choose. Nor will I surrender my right as a citizen to be free of government
force in support of any religion's tenets. If government recognizes your
marriages, it should recognize ours. Separation of Church and
State, as defined in the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment is
necessary to the practice of both individual religious conscience and free and
So the pharisaic representative addresses the sadducees extolling the virtues of
following the letter of the law. He may even support codifying their common
understanding of the text into the law. If only this scenario had played itself
out before and been written down, perhaps even included in a religious text. But
I'm sure those who claimed to understand that text would take certain parts
more seriously than others and miss the general concepts like "do unto
stuff:It is incredible to say the least. The Book of Mormon, as
President Benson said in General Conference back I think in April of 1987 if not
October of 1986, in that we can see a parallel of the things that are going to
happen before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, in the books of Helaman and 3
Nephi.I went a little further back into Alma and saw the parallels
from the Revolution clear up to post-Civil War.Glad to see I am not
the only one that thinks we are in 3 Nephi 1 on the parallel. 3 Nephi 2-4 are
downright scary though, and if you want to see where that goes, look at the
streets of Kiev and Caracas in recent days. That is coming to you guys very,
No one should ever be punished or forced out of business for not doing something
they find contrary to their conscious. It is one thing to let any decent, polite
person into a restaurant and an entirely different matter to force people to
take pictures of gay events, making them first-hand participants.
@Mack2828As opposed to those who bash atheists, homosexuals, and
Progressives all the time? Check out what a non-moderated rightwing forum looks
like (ex: the Blaze). You'll get the same stuff you see at the Tribune,
just coming from the opposite direction. (On a related note, comment
moderation is a large part of why I particularly like coming to this site for
news and participating in these discussions, heh, even if I do occasionally lose
a comment of my own from it).
By the way, I'm not trying to excuse rudeness from Progressive/gay/atheist
commenters, I'm just saying there's a ton of rude people on the
internet across every single demographic and that believing one side of the
political/spiritual aisle has a stranglehold on it doesn't seem to be the
@SanAntonioreader,As a Latter-day Saints we have to recognize what
our doctrine is also. "The great and abominable church" is interpreted
as any organization that takes people away from the one true gospel with its
accompanying ordinances....that would include Mohler's church. We see each
other in a similar way, acknowledging major doctrinal differences that we do not
believe will lead us to the same state in the afterlife: celestial kingdom (us)
or heaven (them). We don't look down on them or they us simply by
acknowledging our differences. Now is a time of unity and resolve to build
relationships with like minded friends and strengthen our support base. We
don't need to make enemies of friends because they don't believe
we're going to their version of heaven. Bytheway, our Christian brothers
and sisters are remarkable and it is a pleasure to work with such faithful, God
fearing people. I would be surprised if we didn't see a lot more of this in
@SanAntonioreaderIts really not that difficult to understand. They
do share many of our values when it comes to religion and family. When you
share a common objective there is strength in numbers. Just because you differ
in some respects doesn't mean you can't affiliate and find common
areas to support. Many people who started out thinking one thing about the
church and their theology have learned over time that it may not actually be
what they initially thought and they have changed their views. Is there a
better way to make that happen than focusing on commonalities?Your
statements just support the common media theme...you are and others have reason
to somehow be uncomfortable around Christians (like they should be feared) while
at the same time tossing out the innuendo that Christians can't be
associated with homosexuals. Thanks for perpetuating the media lie/myth.
What about the religious freedom of those this Evangelical and the LDS oppose?
Does their religious freedom not matter when it clashes with yours? I guess
not, because you don't see this Evangelical or the LDS defending the
religious liberty of these folks.
Would anyone be in favor of forcing an African American baker to bake a
beautiful, elaborate, decorative cake saying "Congratulations and Best of
luck for a wonderful future" for a Ku Klux Klan event?
Every Southern Baptist that I have ever spoken to believe without a doubt that
Mormons are NOT Christians.
They have already arrested a preacher in Canada for citing old testament
scriptures against homosexuality. And in the US they have fined businesses for
not providing funding for abortions. When inalienable rights can be changed by
mere humans, they are no longer inalienable.
Hutterite (and those who fail to see the attack on religion), I wish
you were correct, but you are not. The right of homosexuals to marry will soon
be weighed against religious rights. Keep in mind that the right to perform
marriages is state-controlled. When a person with this state-granted right to
marry refuses to marry homosexual couples, the state will seek to revoke the
person's authority to perform marriages in its name. I've attended
meetings where making this challenge has been seriously discussed. The goal has never been to stop at gaining rights for homosexuals. The goal
has always been to normalize homosexual behavior in the eyes of society. This,
it will be argued, is the only way to end all discrimination. When religion
stands in the way of this goal, religion comes under attack. If you think
otherwise, you're not paying attention. It won't be much
longer before we see a church lose its right to marry if it refuses to marry
homosexual couples based soley on a stance against same-sex marriage.
Many 'good Christians" claim Mormons are not Christians. They even say
some rather unflattering things about the LDS. So now, when they perceive a
threat to their power over their own sheep, they suddenly become real friendly.
I think if there is a so called war on religion, it could be argued that
religion fired the first shot. Maybe more and more Americans are getting fed up
with the religious right's petty, self-righteous, stance on almost
@Schnee You make a really good point. It is a two way street. Their really needs
to be respect and understanding on both sides of all of these difficult issues.
I agree that there is a concerted effort to sideline religionists' rights
to speak and influence public opinion.I also believe that effort is
greatly aided by religionists' misguided attempts to use "Caesar"
as a vehicle for legislating "God."Were I burdened with the
task of public and political relations for the church, I would seize upon the
current movements to solidify reliogionists rights. as every group's right
to exercise a belief, unfettered by government. Only by joining the virtue of
the oppositions' civil right to speak in the public square, can the
religionists cement their own. Fighting for God in Government is
always, always suspect, and usually oppressive.
Mack2828:You're obfuscating. The issue at hand is that of
sexual morality. One side believes their God has ordained sexual relations as
approved only between a man and a woman, lawfully married and the other side
thinks God has no say in the matter and that they have the "right" to
have sex with anyone or anything they please. That is the crux of the matter.
I favor cooperation with Evangelicals for the reasons given by Mr. Mohler.
There is a bigger issue involved than religious differences: it is the right to
practice religion at all.Those who believe that gay marriage is only
about "equality," and that granting constitutional status to gay
marriage harms nobody, are naive. As Judith D. and others have stated, their
goal is to normalize homosexuality and to crush anybody who gets in the way.
That means religions and religious people. Legalization of same
sex marriage carries ominous consequences for those who fail to fall in line.
Does anyone doubt that a well planned lawsuit before an undisciplined judge
(like Robert Shelby, for instance) could strip religions of the right to perform
any marriages unless they also perform gay marriages? We see the
Catholic Church driven from performing adoption services in Massachusetts
because they won’t place children with same sex couples. We see criminal
and civil penalties assessed against individuals or businesses who refuse to
provide marriage services to gay couples. This seems unthinkable, but it is
happening.If we don't band together with like minded religions
and individuals to protect our rights, we will lose them.
I tend to agree with Pleblian's comments--excellent perspective on the
approach to protect the rights of both sides of the issue.Regarding
Mohler and the others that come to discuss friendship, but feel the need to
elaborate on how Mormons and their faith is wrong just to placate the hardcore
Evangelicals back home, I'd say forget them. Who needs that sort of
"friendship"? It's one thing to say something like "Despite
our theological differences, it's important to work together...". He
and the others don't stop there, however, and that's unfortunate.
It's disrespectful. Sure there are elements in Mormon
literature and elsewhere that allude to other faiths being incorrect. However, a
forum with the objective of fostering the desire to work together is not the
place to raise these differences.I can neither identify with the
left or the right.
You'll get no argument from me that the family is under attack and is
endangered. Nor will I argue that the preservation of the family is critical to
our survival. Where I probably differ from the religionists is in the
explanation. I believe the nuclear (the extended is already shot) family is
being shredded by an advanced commercial (capitalist) society which peddles all
manner of filth; bad food, entertainment, and environment. Moreover the low
wage economy of advanced capitalism requires both parents (if both are present)
to work at least one job each so there is no parent in the home. If there is
only one parent the family lives in poverty. The low wage system is
driven by the capitalist class which wants wages to be as low as possible to
advance profit. The culture itself is threatened by an outrageously top heavy
distribution of wealth.I don't get why religionists like the
group at the BYU assembly don't care about low wages or distributions of
wealth. Only lefties like me think such is important. Why don't
evangelicals and Mormons care about these things? Please someone explain.
ultragrampa, are you telling me I don't have the right to have consensual
sex with a man? You wanna bet on that?
RE: Albert Mohler,signed The Manhattan Declaration because I want to put my name
on its final pledge — that we will not bend the knee to Caesar. We will
not participate in any subversion of life. We will not be forced to accept any
other relationship as equal in status or rights to heterosexual marriage. We
will not refrain from proclaiming the truth — and we will order our
churches and institutions and ministries by Christian conviction.In
recent decades a growing body of case law has paralleled the decline in respect
for religious values in the media, the academy and political leadership,
resulting in restrictions on the free exercise of religion. We view this as an
ominous development, not only because of its threat to the individual liberty
guaranteed to every person, regardless of his or her faith, but because the
trend also threatens the common welfare and the culture of freedom on which our
system of republican government is founded.RE: A Quaker, ” I
will defend the right of Mormons and Evangelicals”. I’m curios did
you serve in the military?
I see a great benefit in ending the participation in civil marriages by the
Mormon church. Once the definition of marriage is so legally divergent that the
Mormon church can remove the requirement for civil marriages from its
membership. This would simplify the baptismal process as many people who are
joining the church have not bothered with the civil ceremony. And in countries
like Sweden which penalize married people through taxes, members of the church
could obtain civil divorces to save money. Frankly I think homosexuals,
polygamists, and commune groups should be allowed to marry and divorce as
dividing assets in divorce is really all civil marriage is. Why continue to
call a temple sealing a marriage, it just confuses those who are secular.
@smitxxx: Your fear-mongering is baseless. As we've discussed, ad nauseum
in these pages, religious clerics are free to practice their religion how they
see fit. That's why we have a First Amendment. It prevents government
from meddling with religion. It also prevents one religion from being able to
set laws for everyone else.We have two worlds, that of religion, and
that of science, commerce, and the humanities. You can live in one, the other,
or like many of us, both. But, you have to remember that they are two worlds,
not one. And of the two worlds, the only one we all can share is the latter.
Because, each of our religious worlds is allowed to differ from each other.
Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Lutherans, Catholics, Buddhists, Episcopalians,
Nativists, and Presbyterians are each entitled to their own religious worlds,
free of government dictat. This guarantee, which you seem to bemoan, is why the
U.S. is perhaps the most spiritual nation in the Western World.Which
means, no, no denomination is going to be forced to conduct any marriages, or
sued for failing to.
@Mack2828That is the BEST response/analogy to this whole NONSENSE I
think I have ever read. Especially since the LGBT community keeps trying to
somehow compare their CHOICE to someone being BORN a certain race.Spot on!
All you have to do is read the reactions to this article to witness the opposite
perspectives of the godless and the God-fearing. The conflict is real, as these
opposing opinions demonstrate. It will rise to the level of violence, just as
it always has, beginning with Cain and Abel; the one loving the devil and the
other loving God.I served my youthful mission among the good
Christians of Oklahoma. I loved them then, as I love them now. It doesn't
shake me for some to believe that my path will not lead to heaven. I'm
more interested in an alliance protecting life, liberty, and our pursuit of
happiness.Mr. Marxist: The re-distribution of wealth and the imposed
equality of results you favor are not in harmony with two of those three values.
It requires denial of liberty and interference in the pursuit of happiness.
Never should he who chooses to be idle wear the clothing and eat the food of he
who prospers by the sweat of his brow. Read your scriptures!
I am a lesbian that has been married for 6 years. I make breakfast, take the
kids to school, go to work, walk the dogs, watch TV, spend time with family,
etc. That is the gay agenda for more or less all of the gays that I know. Gay
marriage will not change your life in any way. You will still be able to go to
church and to believe that gays are icky. No one is restricting religious
freedom. You can believe whatever you want. This is really about religious
people wanting to control everyone else and to discriminate against those that
don't fit into their worldview. We live in a secular society with secular
laws and if you operate a business you should serve all. That is what Jesus
I am in favor or providing some religious liberty exception or right that allows
people of faith to not be forced to "participate" in activties taht is
against their religion. The photographer is a good example. The judge asked
to perform a gay wedding. The pharmacist required to carry abortion druges etc.
Provide health benefits like some kinds of birth control that violates their
religion. Unfortunately, that will be hard to put in to a law. "Personal participation" would not apply to someone not accepting
someome else beliefs,(Muslim Infidel or Baptist vs Mormon example). However,
wouldnt a Muslim cab driver be allowed to refuse to transport a drunk person or
someone carrying alachol? It is important to allow people to refuse
to perform an activity in their business that violates their religion.
Before statehood, Utah fought against federal laws that outlawed polygamy,
claiming that such laws violated their religious liberty. Leaders of the Church
went to jail for being polygamists in definace of federal law. They lost that
battle, and as a condition of statehood, polygamy became illegal in Utah.Some 140 years later, the Utah state laws against polygamy have been
struck down by a federal judge. In response, this editorial is claiming that
the religious freedom of Mormons is NOW being violated, which may result in
non-Mormon Christians and Mormons going to jail together.Am I the
only one who sees the irony?
As a faithful LDS, I am truly baffled. Nobody has silenced me or threatens to.
What kind of paranoia is Mohler trying to spread?
Yes, we are in the midst of culture wars - those for religious freedom and
decency versus those for immorality and godlessness. I say, bring-it-on.
Only a few years ago, people on the left and in the LGBT community were saying
that they were only fighting for the right to marry, that it wasn't about
forcing anyone to do anything. Now, surprise, they are trying to tell us that
our freedom to practice our religion is restricted and that it does not extend
to our business transactions or to our private life. It would be like me
telling a gay man to go back into the closet, because that shouldn't be out
in public. (Which, by the way, I would never do.)There most
assuredly is a war on religion. There is an attempt to shove religion into the
the closet. You could make an argument that such would be retribution for the
unfair way LGBTs were treated in the past, but since when is revenge sound
When I look at legislation that's been passed or is proposed, I don't
see the progressive left trying to limit religion, I see the "right"
trying to impose their values on others.
The nation’s first black attorney general, Mr. Holder has said he views
today’s gay-rights campaigns as a continuation of the civil rights
movement that won rights for black Americans in the 1950s and ’60s. He has
called gay rights one of “the defining civil rights challenges of our
time.”Mormons are you listening?
"There is no secular ground," he added, "that can support and defend
human rights."The theory that religion is a force for peace, or
the advancement of human rights does not fit the facts of history. The
scriptures present a God who delights in genocide, rape, slavery, and the
execution of nonconformists, and for millennia those writings were used to
rationalize the massacre of infidels, the ownership of women, the beating of
children, dominion over animals, and the persecution of heretics and
homosexuals. Humanitarian reforms such as the elimination of cruel punishment,
the dissemination of empathy-inducing novels, and the abolition of slavery were
met with fierce opposition in their time by ecclesiastical authorities and their
apologists. Thus, as a student of history, I fear religious zeal,
certainty, and unsupported claims of superiority more than just about anything.
Civilization as we know it exists despite religion, not because of it. Thank you
enlightened thinkers and progressives.
Willem,Do be honest, I don't listem to much of what Eric Holder
says. He is a poster child for the Obama administrations commitment to
espousing ideology at the expense of effectively governing.
I would like to see, when it comes right down to it, how many Mormons and
Evangelicals are looking forward to willingly go to jail together to maintain
their abstract definitions.
It is interesting to me that Mohler argues that a belief in a "divine
creation" is the foundation for human rights, that among those human rights
is the freedom of religion, and that religion justifies denying some of those
same human rights to groups of people he doesn't like. The circular logic
Seriously? This is just right wing baiting trying to scare religious people
into supporting them and their anti-family economic policies. No one's
going to jail for being religious in America, so seriously, why did this guy
even get a platform to spout off such nonsense, and why is the Deseret News
publishing it as if what he says is actually legitimate? Members of the church
who have the Holy Ghost should recognize this for exactly what it is - a cynical
attempt by Satan to get members of the church to vote Republican.
Like several other people who have posted here, I don't understand why a
man who is openly critical of our faith is invited to speak at BYU. I'm
also amazed that speakers are given an audience at BYU to repeat paranoid
right-wing talking points. No one is proposing rounding up Christians and
putting them in prisons. A generation ago, restaurants and all other businesses
were mandated by law to serve anyone who requested service, regardless of
colour. Civilization did not come crashing to an end; rather, it moved forward.
The LDS Church doesn't recognize same-sex marriage; as a religion
that is its right. As an active member of the Church, I agree. I believe
marriage is between a man and a woman, and I live by that belief. Other people
believe something else about marriage; I respect their right to live according
to their belief.
Yes, that Black baker needs to bake that cake for the KKK rally. And that KKK
member cannot put a No Blacks or Jews Allowed sign in the window of his diner -
even if he is morally offended by Jews because he feels they killed Jesus. And
Baptists cannot put a No Mormons Allowed sign in the windows of their stores
because they don't think we are Christian. And a Mormon cannot refuse to
serve a Gay couple because he doesn't like them. We settled this in the
sixties when we reaffirmed the idea that this is America, and everyone here is
equal. Get over it.
My ancestors were burned out of Nauvoo by evangelicals professing similar
intolerance, and I am not amused by Mohler's repeated comments to the BYU
students that their faith is false and will lead to eternal damnation. Why does
BYU keep inviting these right-wingers to campus? In the grove, Joseph was told
that their religions were all false, that their professors were corrupt, and
that he should join none of them. He was not told to avoid science, arts, and
learning and civil society in general. If Jesus came today would He
go to the the Baptist Theological Seminar or would we find Him meekly trying to
love and minister the HIV/AIDS community, the homeless, immigrants, little
children, addicts, and others who have little voice in our society?As a faithful Latter-day Saint, I respect our leaders reaching out to people
of all faiths, but we need to be crystal clear on the agenda of intolerance
evangelicals espouse in the current culture wars: if these folks ever get into
power, Mormons will be the first up against the wall.
Re: A Quaker. A Christian preacher,Billy Graham supported Romney,” on the
biblical definition of marriage, protect the sanctity of life and defend our
religious freedoms.” Christians believe that President Obama has
undertaken policies that encroach on religious freedom.The Manhattan
Declaration. Christians will not comply with any edict that purports to compel
our institutions to participate in abortions, embryo-destructive research,
assisted suicide and euthanasia, or any other anti-life act; nor will we
bend to any rule purporting to force us to bless immoral sexual partnerships,
treat them as marriages or the equivalent, or refrain from proclaiming the
truth, as we know it, about morality and immorality and marriage and the family.
We will fully and ungrudgingly render to Caesar what is Caesar’s. But
under no circumstances will we render to Caesar what is God’s. i.e..After the judicial imposition of “same-sex marriage”
in Massachusetts, for example, Catholic Charities chose with great reluctance to
end its century long work of helping to place orphaned children in good
homes rather than comply with a legal mandate that it place children in
same-sex households in violation of Catholic moral teaching.
It is true, religions are running scared right now. It is good to cross
religious lines and shake hands, have a good repor with one another. The church
is here for ALL of God's children. We should welcome others in our forum
for discussion. This is healthy. It is true that the day will come when it
will be very clear to members of other faiths that we are the Lord's true
church (either on this side of the veil or the other) and being hospitable and
kind to other faiths just helps others warm up to us, - by their fruits they
shall know them. It lets them see the light in our eyes and the spirit in our
facilities. This is true outreach.Note to editor:Why
doesn't this comment section allow for "reply" to other comments,
that would be a great improvement, please implement this. It would be waaaay
better for the dialogue.Thanks! - PS it's not Sandy Texas, but
Round Rock. The zip code changed domains.
Mr. Mohler and his allies (including the Mormon Church) would do well to present
their case in reasonable terms rather than in "this nation is abandoning
God" terms. The latter is simply one's beliefs and holds no weight
with those who don't share those beliefs.If I were called as a
witness at a trial and testified, "I believe the defendant did it, I'm
convinced the defendant did it, I have every faith the defendant did it," my
testimony would be inadmissible unless I came up with facts to support my
beliefs.So it is in this country (as opposed to, e.g., Uganda).I admit, as a gay male, that some current events do threaten religious
freedom. I fully support a baker's right not to provide a wedding cake for
a same-sex marriage if his religious beliefs forbid it. I also fully support
the right of two same-gender consensual adults who aren't close blood
relatives to marry since it only affects peoples' religion in their minds,
not in reality.Let's take every situation individually rather
than issue broad platitudes from either side, which merely play to the choir.
It's easy to tell how important a particular truth is based just on how
much people comment on it, positively or negatively.Even if I
didn't already know the validity of this speaker's address at BYU,
that so many have something to say about it clues me in that there is something
good and extremely important involved that the devil wants to defame and hide.
We live in a time of great secularism that is increasing every day. I'm
glad this gentleman was able to speak at BYU. Nevertheless, evangelical
Christians as a whole are very suspicious of members of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints, and members of the church in the South are not only
in the minority but face ostracism by their evangelical neighbors to this day.
What nonsense! The right wing needs to stop the sensationalism,
misrepresentation and hyperbole. I am deeply troubled that my Church is getting
so deep into this partisan campe that it will be further marginalized as a true
world religion. It is short-sighted and utter folly. One other
note: I would bet anything that once a Republican is elected to the White House
again, all of this nonsense will disappear. This is partisanship, based on a
profound underlying hatred. This form of Christianity is antithetical to the
Gospel of Christ, and I am sad to see my alma mater and my Church dabble so
deeply in it.
@Free Agency,Thank you for your voice of reason. I am convinced
that if legislation were passed securing the type of religious freedom you
referenced, much of the fear regarding gay marriage would evaporate. Many on
the far left are frightening in their near-religious zealousy to eliminate
religion. If legislation were passed that coupled the legality of gay marriage
with a reaffirmation that this new right would never require a church to perform
gay marriages, many people would be much less concerned about gay marriage.
Many fear that in a court battle pitting the right to marry against religous
rights, the current climate of this nation result in the right to marry
triumphing over religious rights. Although some consider this unlikely, if they
spent any time with the militant left, who seem to be gaining strength in this
nation, they would quickly see that many people would love to see religion and
religous rights fade away in this country. These people see the influence of
religion as the final barrier to this country embracing their view of the world.
Absolutely delicious! The comments here are fascinating...no better way to spend
a relaxful morning. Has anyone considered that the alliance between
Mohler - who thinks very little of Mormon doctrine - and the LDS church is a
business deal to product their "business". Both religions speak directly
to god but apparently he is a bit fickle in his rules as he tells each that they
are his favorite...go figure.Yes, religion and religious
institutions should be concerned. Religion is dying. Religious dogma is being
abandoned for independent, scientifically validated thought. Common sense is
prevailing over tradition and the boogie man. Mohler can predict the
catastrophic future of humanity but can't see climate change. He's a lobbyist plain and simple and the LDS church is using him to sound
the alarm - as fictitious as it might be. Tobacco companies joined forces even
though they were competitors and now the All-American LDS Religion is joining
forces with the original religion, Baptist to bolster business for all. Rah,
rah, rah...save our tax free, invisibile product, power wielding business!
Mr. Mohler may not agree with LDS theology at all, but what he does agree with
is that an attack on one religion is an attack on all religions. And, it
can't be denied that there is much common ground values in all religion,
whether Christian or Jew, or Islam. It is also ironic that this is a time when
some on the left are trying to advocate or find ways to stifle debate that is
not PC. These types of changes come slowly until they are ingrained in a
population as normal. That is the danger Mr. Mohler and others are warning us
about to watch out for happening in this country as more and more secularism
controls the education and media in America. History shows that the most
oppressive regimes come largely from the left. Particularly 20th century
@Quaker:"As a Quaker, I will defend the right of Mormons and
Evangelicals to worship in any manner they wish. In their own homes and
churches/temples."If there is a war and there is a draft, many of us
on this page believe that Quakers should have the right to claim themselves a
conscientious objectors because of their pacifist beliefs.Accord the
same right and privilege to others.
SCfan - defending the free exercise of religion also means defending the free
exercise of the non-religious. Unfortunately, people like Mohler are committing
acts of religious oppression in the guise of defending against it, and we would
do well to not buy into his cynical rhetoric to try to get us to enable him, or
worse, to do as he does.
@Marxist:"Only lefties like me think such is important. Why don't
evangelicals and Mormons care about these things? Please someone
explain."Why don't evangelicals and Mormons care about
these things? Please someone explain."I think that it is because
Mormons recognize that the government, at best, is incompetent. If you want to
eliminate poverty, go out and do it yourself, don't wait for the HHS and
Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi or Hugo Chavez to get involved. May be they will
come to their sense, but I won't hold my breath. I will do what I can
now.Mormon scriptures talk about the city of Enoch where there were
no poor. If you conclude that the government can't do anything, then can
you go and achieve your Marxist dream without them? You may want to look up
about the LDS church's welfare program. That is a start.
Irony Guy said "As a faithful LDS, I am truly baffled. Nobody has silenced
me or threatens to"All I can say is-- you must not get out much.
While I am very grateful for all the good Mohler said, I too am troubled by the
unnecessary and inflammatory rhetoric.You can bet if Elder
Christofferson or Oaks or Holland or Anderson etc etc been asked to speak at
his seminary, they would have never been so blatant and offensive.
I wish to follow Christ and welcome everyone at HIS table. Why is my religious
belief being trampled? Why are these "Christians" trying to force me to
turn my back on my gay brothers and sisters? "Their lips draw near me but
their hearts are far from me"
elarueA valid point, about both secularism and religion needing the same
constitutional protection. However, if one becomes oppressive to the other, it
is a bad imbalance that threatens liberty. In many Arab countries, the religion
overwhelms any secular (or non Muslim religions) and that is not freedom as we
would want it. But the same holds true if a country were to put religion in the
"closet" and make a religiously influenced society non existent. And
today that idea is gaining ground among some in the academic, and liberal, and
media communities. So religion must fight to hold their ground and have an
equal access to society.
@Judith D.Thanks for your response. I’m afraid, though, that
many people who are against SSM would—even if their religion was made
exempt from performing SSM—still have concerns: e.g., schools teaching
that it’s okay to be gay, that SSM is fine, etc.As I said, we
need to consider each situation individually. Am I being made to do something
that goes against my highest values? That would be wrong. Am I trying to push
my religious views onto all of our society? (The baker was not, he simply
wanted to exempt himself.) That, too, would be wrong.It cuts both
ways, and I share your concern about the zealotry of the far left. It reminds
of the peasant response during the French Revolution—“Death to all
Aristos and their associates!” In this case, the cry is, “Apply the
‘bigot’ and ‘homophobe’ labels to anyone who
doesn’t agree with us!”Such seems to be human nature,
and I hope the reasonable folks on both sides will “come out of the
closet” and work together for a just America.
Who really cares that, historically, South Baptists and their leaders have
insisted that Mormons are not real Christians? A future Latter-day Saint
presidential candidate might!Please do recall that in 2008 and again
in 2012 presidential candidate Mitt Romney's beliefs were ridiculed and
disingenuously misrepresented by Mike Huckabee, a Southern Baptist minister, as
well as by the leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention and host Southern
Baptists throughout the South and the nation, including a distant Romney
relative, the proprietor of “Christian” bookstore in Utah. I
don't recall that any of them ever apologized for their errors or attempted
to clarify the record. Back in the 1976 Democratic primaries, future
President Jimmy Carter, a Southern Baptist Sunday School teacher at the time,
was critical of Mo Udall's Mormon background and the teachings of his
church. In short, the history of Southern Baptist animas toward Latter-day
Saints and their beliefs dates all back to the earliest days of the church in
Jackson County, Missouri.While making friends and building alliances
are worthy endeavors, this apparent rapprochement between the Southern Baptists
and eagerly accommodating Mormons strikes me as expedient, one-sided,
transparently insincere and, probably, fleeting.
what has happened to 'patience, long-suffering and persuasion'?
While we defend our right for religious freedoms we always seem to act like it
is them versus us. Every person is entitled to live their lives according to the
dictates of their own conscience. I will defend my right to live my faith, but I
would be a hypocrite to do it while trying to take away the rights of others to
live their freedoms of choice. EVERYONE has a right to live religiously or not.
Religious freedom means just that. Why are people so convinced that it is an
attack on religious freedom if someone else is given freedom to live their life
their way? My religious freedoms have not been diminshed at all in the 30 years
i have been a member of my faith, in fact I have found more tolerance and
understanding of my beliefs from a wider spectrum of the nation- call it
Tolerance and Respect. Where does the Paranoia of my fellow Saints come from?-
that has become the enemy!
I see the day coming in the very near future when the LDS Church will no longer
allow civil ceremonies or receptions in their meeting houses, because gays or
lesbians will sue the Church for not making the same available to them.This is not paranoia. It is merely a very logical extension of the case of
the cameraman. While I have many LGBT associates and friends, and
most have a live-and-let-live attitude, there is a very real, very vocal radical
LGBT element which will not be happy until they tear down any and all perceived
'barriers'. Just as there is a very real, very vocal radical right
'Christian' element which will not be happy until they deny all rights
to the LGBT community.Though they do not espouse our beliefs, nor
care to participate in our religion or rites, they feel we should not be able to
either, just because it WOULD infringe on them IF they WERE to choose to opt to
engage. It is offensive to them, and therefore should be squelched. The very
height of intolerance, preached by those who preach tolerance.
Jeremiah was put in stocks. Isaiah was sawed in half. Peter was crucified
upside down. Prophets have given us a rich history of suffrage for faith. I
hope President Monson goes to England, stands firm in the well of a secular
court and presents himself as Christ's vicar, just a the prophet Abinadi.
We have experienced a hundred years of little persecution for our beliefs...and
now we must step it up in the face of it. Who will stand for Christ in these
times? Certainly our Prophet should even if in some way they intend to deny him
his God given liberty to speak against evil. I and perhaps a million other
Latter Day Saints would also stand in his place if necessary.
Can we get back to our prophets and apostles teaching us how to be more like our
Savior Jesus Christ? Teaching His words and how to implement them in our lives?
Because the things He asked of us are not easy and I could use wise counsel and
inspiration. Last General Conference was less than uplifting with all the right
wing propaganda culture mixed in. Except President Uchtdorf. His talks always
inspire me in my walk with Christ!
SCfan says:"...an attack on one religion is an attack on all
religions."---That is patently false. There are
numerous religions that believe same-sex marriage is okay and are 100% willing
to perform them. The LDS Church and these Evangelicals have joined forces to
*attack* these religions that believe differently. There are so many varieties
out there that you can find any flavor you desire. Liking chocolate is not an
attack on vanilla. Liking strawberry is not an attack on
chocolate-chip-cookie-dough. Get the idea?@Tekakaromatagi;At it's heart, the LDS church itself is nothing more than
"government" (of the religious). I guess that makes them
"incompetent" too.@Free Agency;I disagree. No
business should be allowed to discriminate against any customers.@J-TX;Those "radicals" are the very reason we have the
rights today that we do. Thank them!
-___- If we are all to go to jail together, PLEASE give me a cell in solitary
confinement. Also, the condemnation that this guy is receiving from
this Evangelical Protestant peers for even TALKING to Mormons illustrates
exactly why it is wholly unrealistic for us to seriously consider an alliance
As a former Southern Baptist myself, I am honestly surprised that he hasn't
lost his job teaching the theological seminary. Normally, engaging with
"non-Christians" - including Latter-day Saints, because they believe the
Nicene Creed defines Christianity - without the intent to convert gets Southern
Baptist theologians in a lot of trouble with their colleagues and superiors.
Alma 30:17 - Korihor taught that "whatsoever a man did was no crime" and
18 says that he led away many men and women to commit whoredoms. He lied about
the Nephite's teachings/religion and positions. Apply this story to where
we are at now in the USA. Wow. Textbook. I watch the news and saw some
interviews about what is going on in Arizona. Can I say that we as
conservatives/religious people are horrible at answering the charge that we are
homophobes? We we not develop proper talking points to refute that? Jesus is
not a homophobe. People with SSA can choose to marry and have children and live
the law of chastity. (see Josh Weed's story). That is our position, we
believe that people with SSA will ultimately live happier lives by controlling
their passions (as everyone is commanded to do anyway) and marrying and having
their own family. Josh Weed did it and is a fantastic example. BTW - irony -
he is persecuted by the gay community for his choice of who to marry. Should
they not be celebrating him? It is NOT homophobic to believe that Josh's
experience is preferable.
I've heard a lot of commentary by FOLLOWERS of Jesus, and people who claim
the right to speak on behalf of God, about this subject, but since Jesus is the
one these people claim to be the head of their religion, I'd like someone
to find me a quote by Jesus, personally, that he gave on the subject of
homosexuality, or same sex marriage. I have read much of the Bible, and have yet
to see anything from him. He did however tell people to love their neighbors as
themselves. I may be mistaken, but I assume that means treating all people
equally.On the subject of religious liberty: Freedom of religion is
the freedom for each person to practice his/her own religion, and believe
whatever they want to believe. It is not the freedom to impose your personal way
of life on the rest of society. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty
God... and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or
what they may. If a person truly believes that, then it's time to show it.
The dangers to religious liberty that we contend with are so much more weighty a
matter in the current environment than whether Evangelicals believe I belong to
a cult. That is the least of my worries. The nice thing about Evangelicals
nowadays is that, by in large, if you have thick skin, you can live in a
neighborhood where everybody thinks you are going to hell, but yet have little
threat to your religious liberty. I prefer this over the smooth-tongued,
saccharine, behind the back, passive-aggressive opposition to my beliefs using
the force of government. Even those Evangelicals who fear for my salvation more
often than not treat me with far less vitriol and condescension than many
secular zealots. Sure, I realize that at one time in the early history of the
church, the Evangelicals were the ones oppressing us, but it is not so much the
case anymore, at least not in my experience. I'd rather be told I'm
going to hell, than to actually go there.
Discrimination appears to be a dirty word to many people these days. It's a
real shame that so many people can't Discriminate (judge) between good and
evil, right and wrong, Male and Female. So many have no moral justification for
calling marriage something it is not, other than; it should be whatever they
want to call it. They pervert the meaning of the constitution saying; homosexual
relations is all about equal rights of couples doing whatever they want. In fact
the constitution says nothing of marriage relationships and has everything to do
what protecting individual liberties and allowing equal treatment under the law,
including protecting religious thought and culture. Laws of the State and of the
US are enacted by state legislatures and Congress and should not be interpreted
by judicial and administrative process. They should only enforce the laws.
Congress in a bipartisan way approved DOMA and for some reason the LIBs and Dems
think they can go around congress and State legislatures. It's going to
come back and bite them. They will be put out of office and their strong arm
methods will be put to shame for years to come. The sooner the better!
@Hutterite, No, Dems and Libs are in fact trying to limit religious liberty.
Homosexual relationships have nothing, exactly nothing to do with the word
marriage! Gay Marriage is a perversion of the language as well as a perversion
of moral code.
RanchBy your reasoning it was OK for the Jews to be singled out in
Germany. That is what I mean by an attack on one is an attack on all.
RE: Ranch, Bill Owens, President of CAAP said, As much as President Obama
and Atty General Holder would like it to be otherwise, we live in a
democracy—with government of, by, and for the people—not a monarchy
ruled by a king issuing decrees from on high. The citizens of several states who
have voted overwhelmingly to preserve marriage have had their votes voided and
thrown out by radical federal judges, and the Obama administration, the Justice
Department has been shamefully complicit in this attack on the rights of those
voters.RE: ENDavis. Jesus , “They record that from the
beginning ‘God made them male(Adam) and female(Eve, [Not Steve]”..,
a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are
united into one. MT 14:5 NLT.RE: cassandove.
"non-Christians" – including LDS. True,The Manhattan
declaration was created by the Christian community (Roman Catholics,Orthodox and
Protestants).LDS were not excluded from the Christian community
declaration for sociological reasons but for many Theological reasons. i.e..
Christians believe in one God.
Awesome! I served my mission in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama
for 2 years. Then I lived in northern Mississippi for 3 years during an Air
Force assignment. Then we lived in south Georgia for another 4 years. And I
have lived in northern Oklahoma for over 7 years. One thing I have learned is
there are thousands and thousands and thousands of good, decent, faithful
Christians in the southeast part of the U.S., meaning specifically, good and
decent Christians who do not belong to the LDS church.We are, as
'Mormon' Christians, not alone, and I find that incredibly refreshing
and strengthening.We do indeed have differences. But our samenesses
outweigh our differences, and the more the LDS church and non-LDS churches work
together, the more we will realize that important truth.Speaking of
the rapidly growing divide in America, homosexual behavior is a sin. Always has
been, always will be.If I eventually go to jail for speaking the
truth, so be it.God bless America and those of us, LDS or not, who
still love her as God intended her to be.
While I believe the Constitution should cover all Americans no matter their
race, religion or sexuality I do not believe that marriage is a right provided
in the constitution. I do have a gay brother who just adopted a child with his
partner. I love my brother and his partner and I consider their child my
nephew. They know my beliefs and we have love and respect for each other
despite differences. After this court ruling I realized that the Proclamation
to the Family that was written by the First Presidency of the Church to outline
our beliefs regarding family is basically under this ruling against the law, at
least the portion that defines marriage as being between a man and a woman. I
have the Proclamation hanging on the wall right inside my entry way in my home
and it will not be coming down even if the powers that be deem it to be illegal.
I fear that day is closer than I thought as freedom of religion and freedom of
speech are being suppressed in tandem. However gays can speak out against
religion all they like and sue people who have different beliefs and win.
@ IsaacsTM : "People with SSA can choose to marry and have children and live
the law of chastity. (see Josh Weed's story). That is our position"Just want to make clear that what you said is absolutely not the LDS
church position and Josh Weed specifically said on his blog that his story
should not be used as you just tried to use it. President Hinckley said
"marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such
as homosexual inclinations." The church pamphlet God Loveth His Children
says "the perfect plan of our Father in Heaven makes provision for
individuals who seek to keep His commandments but who, through no fault of their
own, do not have an eternal marriage in mortal life."Some people who
experience SSA can function in mixed orientation marriages--many others. cannot.
Those who remain faithful, single, and celibate are following God's plan
for them and are entitled to all the blessings God has promised.
Christianity is not under attack, nor do most Christians beieve it is. This is
an extreme position of the political far right who articulate their politics in
terms of Christian texts. What is under attack is Christian cultural hegemony.
@ENDavis, Let me give you an example: Who so ever looks upon a woman to lust
after her has committed adultery in his heart. This is sin, the forces of
attraction should not be ruled by sexual desire and appetite. Woman lusting
after women and men after men falls into the same category. I'm sorry for
you if you don't see it the way Christ taught it, it was pretty clear. An
argument that homosexuals need a sexual relationship to survive would be bogus
since lust is ever a good justification for a relationship. If the relationship
was between two men or two women living in the same house was non-sexual they
would just be friends, right? God and religion have no problem with this either,
a friendship is not a marriage but we always hope a marriage man/women is the
best kind of friendship with each other and God.
@ENDavis, Perhaps you don't see a difference in living in a world where sin
and vice are the accepted norm compared to a world where sin and vice are kept
from public display and limited in as much as possible for the safety and
enjoyment of a highly cultured society. There again I feel for you.
I gladly embrace those that are not of the LDS church! I use to be one of them.
They believe as strongly about what they believe as I do about what I believe.
Does that mean that we can't serve together for the same purpose? If he
were my neighbor in the same apartment building, and the building was on fire,
am I suppose to tell him that I don't want his help extinguishing the fire,
because he has voiced his opinion about my church and what I believe? No! Our
'country' is going down in flames!!! Also, as a child I was shunned
by many LDS kids, because I was not LDS. As a young adult I learned the truth of
the gospel when I was finally accepted into a group of LDS friends. I had
probably said a lot worse things about the church than Mr. Mohler ever said. LDS
members know religious 'persecution'! Let's not be the
'persecutor'! Mr. Mohler, I applaud your appearance at BYU!
What an absurd statement. Religion, which dominates Politics, Legislatures,
Schools and every Public Forum, is certainly NOT being persecuted. Protestant
Christianity has dominated every single facet of this Nation. Just ask anyone
who is not a Fundamentalist, Protestant Christian.This man needs to back
down on the False Witness posturing.
The Bible is more important than the Constitution. Gay marriage will force us
all to choose which of these two documents are more important. Your future
will between choosing between the commandments and community or the law suit and
taking offense at the slightest offense.
Christoph, i very much support your belief that the Bible (i.e., your
interpretation of the Bible) is more important than the U.S. Constitution. I
support other religionists similar to you who believe the Qur'an or any
other 'sacred' text is more important than the Constitution. The
Constitution doesn't require anyone to 'believe' in it. It
doesn't even require anyone to believe in the idea of America, to be
patriotic, to be a nationalist. It is, however, the founding legal document of
the United States and the point of reference for every law and governmental
practice. As long as devout men and women like you restrict your behaviour to
what is legal (which includes hating any class of person that you want), more
power to you. Feel free to put up anti-gay posters in your place of business or
on your lawn. But when your beliefs have the effect of denying people with
different beliefs equal protection under the law, your elevation of the
Qur'an or the Bible cannot be accepted by society.
It seems to me that we need as many allies as we can get in this fight to keep
our religious freedoms. Because there are so many in our society that have no
absolute values, they cannot understand the depth of conviction that others have
on the issue of same-gender marriage. And unless we stand together, they will
also never know how many people feel strongly about it. The silent majority has
been silent way too long. The societal shift to destroy marriage began in the
60's with free love. The movement to has destroyed the sanctity of life
(legal abortions) and marriage (cohabitation & same sex marriage). This has
led to the destabilization and devaluation of families. We see the consequences
in higher crime rates and random senseless acts of violence. Strong families
make strong societies. The celebration of individuals makes for weaker
You know, people say that they are just trying to do what the constitution
states, giving everyone freedom of religion, speech, etc.., as well as following
the 14th amendment. This is true completely. Everyone should be able to have as
many rights as they want. However, as in the recent bill in
Arizona... The constitution does say that no state shall deny equal protection
of law. It does not say that the citizens can't refuse service to other
citizensThat last sentence sounds bad, and probably reminds people
of oppression of the blacks during the 1960s. Many of you are probably going to
say Blah Blah Blah Civil Rights Act Blah Blah Blah. This still sounds terrible.
The civil rights act of 1964 says that you can't discriminate based of of
Gender, race, religion, color, origin. Last time I checked, Homosexual
isn't a religion. Also, because the companies in Arizona sold to both male
and female, just not to gays, it is legal to do so. It may not be right, and it
is not my position to decide, but it is LEGAL
ENDavis, the savior taught that "Whether by mine own voice or the voice of
mine own servants, it is the same." The leader of the LDS Church proclaimed
that marriage is between a man and a woman. We are commanded that a man will
cleave unto his wife, and to multiply and replenish the earth.A child born
to mother and father has the best chance of succeeding in this world. Studies
overwhelmingly indicate children without the father in the home struggle. How
much more they struggle without the effect of the nurturer, the mother, I can
only imagine.History is replete with societies which thrived with marriage
between a man and a woman. However, I know of only one which ever existed before
today, with homosexuality, and it was destroyed.Many thoughtful comments
have been posted here, it has been very helpful, indeed.
As an evangelical, I am genuinely excited by the very real prospect (and in some
cases already actual) of secular oppression. We, the church, will finally be put
in the position we should be-- despised and mistreated servants. This will only
serve to forge our character. The church is not owed the privileges she has
enjoyed in America. "Love does not insist on its own way. It
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all
things." (1 Cor 13:5, 7)"When reviled, we bless; when
persecuted, we endure; when slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are
still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things." (1 Cor
4:12-13)"The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be
the name of the Lord.” (Job 1:21)"In the world you will
have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” (Jn
16:33)"Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of
various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces
steadfastness." (James 1:2-3)
@Dan Maloy". . . homosexual behavior is a sin. Always has been,
always will be."Dan, what you've stated is your *belief.*
And that's fine, we all have beliefs. The only problem is, you didn't
state it as a belief. You stated it as a fact. And you can't reasonably
do that.Yes, it may be a fact to you--but that doesn't make it
a fact in general society. If you look at my original posting (p. 3 of these
Comments), you'll see my "court of law" remark regarding the
difference between facts and beliefs.I'm sure you consider your
Mormon religion your "faith." Well, the reason we call it faith is
because we can't prove it factually. That's why we have faith in it.
If we could prove it factually, we wouldn't need "faith."It's fine for you to believe in whatever you like, as long as you
don't hurt others. But you're wasting your breath when you state your
beliefs as facts, and hope to convince others that they are facts. In short,
you lose all credibility in your arguments when you do so.
This man talks about human dignity, human rights, and human flourishing! Three
things that he would deny gay people. They shift the entire situation around and
want people to believe that they are the victims! I don't see anybody
telling Brother Monson or any ot the general authorities that they are not
worthy of God! Nobody is telling any of them that they are not good enough to
get married and that they shouldn't have any children! This man is talking
about dignity? Well, try being told that others get the right to spit on you
when you try to get served in their business. What was this man saying about
dignity? Human rights was also mentioned. They want their human right to be
believe that gay people have no value! They want the religous freedom to
discriminate! They want the right to say it all come from God!I think we
know by now how Mormons feel about gay people and there is no dignity in their
beliefs about gays. There are no gay human rights in the Mormon's religous
freedom! They most definitely do not want gay people to have " Human
Flourishing" as mentioned!
Brazil is one of the biggest fertile ground for attacks on the family. The
country is under a non-declared communist regime...
@marxist "You'll get no argument from me that the family is
under attack and is endangered. Nor will I argue that the preservation of the
family is critical to our survival."Are you serious? You do not
believe that the family is central to the preservation of society? It always
has been and always will be. Do you not know the history of civilizations that
went through the same cycle we are now in? Where are they now? On the heap!"The low wage system is driven by the capitalist class which wants
wages to be as low as possible to advance profit. The culture itself is
threatened by an outrageously top heavy distribution of wealth."Apparently you lack and understanding of how the capitalist society works.
Those who work hard, get educated or trained make themselves capable of being
producers instead of consumers. That helps them become upwardly mobile and
successful. They do not desire that the rest have low wages, but that is a
natural result for those who do nothing for their own future.
****Work in Progress*** Bridge Building ***Work in Progress****
No one should be spat upon and God's word is in the Bible, or at least
that's been believed for almost 2,000 years. Mormons are taught to love
others, while not condoning sin. As for dignity, it needs no outward comeliness.
The 2 most dignified, majestic figures were chained, dirty, and sealed their
testimonies with their blood.We believe that all men have agency to act
the way they want, but marriage is between a man and woman. Please keep to the
issues, without spreading hate.
Abraham Lincoln-“It cannot have failed to strike you that these men ask
for just the same thing, fairness, and fairness only. This, so far as in my
power, they and all others shall have.” Gays and Lesbians, and their
children too, whose voices are in harmony with constitutional guarantees, also
ask for fairness, and fairness only. This, so far as it is this courts power,
they and all others shall have. Of course the welfare of our
children is legitimate state interest. However, limiting marriage to
opposite-sex couples fails to further this interest. Instead,needlessly
stigmatizing and humiliating children who are being raised by the loving couples
targeted by discriminatory Marriage Laws betrays that interest. In
other words, some feel that it is perfectly rational to hold same-sex couples
and their children morally and legally responsible for any failure of
heterosexuals to act in the manner that the state wishes them to behave.
I was initially quite surprised to read about Southern Baptist working in
concert with the LDS church - didn't the leaders of the Southern Baptist
Convention refer to Mormonism as a "cult" while endorsing Rick Perry in
the fall of 2011? Yet, they apparently have found a common enemy
powerful enough the force them into alliance.
@sneakyjimmyIf one is following Christ, please and review the 10
commandments. There will be a great and terrible day of judgement. I am not
judging anyone, but Gods commandments are not suggestions.
@smitxxx: We see the Catholic Church driven from performing adoption services
in Massachusetts because they won’t place children with same sex couples.
Um... Actually, Catholic social services was given a choice: provide
adoption services to all Massachusetts citizens, including Gay couples, or stop
receiving state money. They took a third option and shut down. This
was a matter of law.
Any other time and behind each others backs, these people can't stand each
other and we all know it! Oh, I guess they have a few enemies that are worse,
don't they!Just because slavery existed since the very beginnings of
civilization, doesn't make it right. People have hated gay people from the
beginning as well, it doesn't make it right either!I am so disgusted!
I grew up believing in God! I watch the people I believed with as they do
something very wrong! People speak about morality and sin, but they want to be
able to define it. We all take part in life and it is wrong to dismiss people as
if they have no say in things! There are sins that have no names but do so much
damage to others! How do you explain what all this hate and discrimination
effects a person? What it has done to our lives can not be explained. It effects
our entire lives and it can be devastating! It is wrong! It wasn't meant to
be this way and it doesn't need to be!