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Mohler returns to BYU, says Mormons, evangelicals 'may go to jail together' sooner than he thought

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  • RFLASH Salt Lake City, UT
    March 12, 2014 10:17 a.m.

    Any other time and behind each others backs, these people can't stand each other and we all know it! Oh, I guess they have a few enemies that are worse, don't they!
    Just because slavery existed since the very beginnings of civilization, doesn't make it right. People have hated gay people from the beginning as well, it doesn't make it right either!
    I am so disgusted! I grew up believing in God! I watch the people I believed with as they do something very wrong! People speak about morality and sin, but they want to be able to define it. We all take part in life and it is wrong to dismiss people as if they have no say in things! There are sins that have no names but do so much damage to others! How do you explain what all this hate and discrimination effects a person? What it has done to our lives can not be explained. It effects our entire lives and it can be devastating! It is wrong! It wasn't meant to be this way and it doesn't need to be!

  • Stormwalker Cleveland , OH
    March 1, 2014 10:19 p.m.

    @smitxxx: We see the Catholic Church driven from performing adoption services in Massachusetts because they won’t place children with same sex couples.

    Um... Actually, Catholic social services was given a choice: provide adoption services to all Massachusetts citizens, including Gay couples, or stop receiving state money. They took a third option and shut down.

    This was a matter of law.

  • endoftimes Vernal, UT
    March 1, 2014 1:41 p.m.

    @sneakyjimmy

    If one is following Christ, please and review the 10 commandments. There will be a great and terrible day of judgement. I am not judging anyone, but Gods commandments are not suggestions.

  • TheTrueVoice West Richland, WA
    Feb. 28, 2014 3:15 p.m.

    I was initially quite surprised to read about Southern Baptist working in concert with the LDS church - didn't the leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention refer to Mormonism as a "cult" while endorsing Rick Perry in the fall of 2011?

    Yet, they apparently have found a common enemy powerful enough the force them into alliance.

  • equal protection Cedar, UT
    Feb. 28, 2014 9:50 a.m.

    Abraham Lincoln-“It cannot have failed to strike you that these men ask for just the same thing, fairness, and fairness only. This, so far as in my power, they and all others shall have.” Gays and Lesbians, and their children too, whose voices are in harmony with constitutional guarantees, also ask for fairness, and fairness only. This, so far as it is this courts power, they and all others shall have.

    Of course the welfare of our children is legitimate state interest. However, limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples fails to further this interest. Instead,needlessly stigmatizing and humiliating children who are being raised by the loving couples targeted by discriminatory Marriage Laws betrays that interest.

    In other words, some feel that it is perfectly rational to hold same-sex couples and their children morally and legally responsible for any failure of heterosexuals to act in the manner that the state wishes them to behave.

  • Rae M. Bountiful , UT
    Feb. 28, 2014 12:13 a.m.

    No one should be spat upon and God's word is in the Bible, or at least that's been believed for almost 2,000 years. Mormons are taught to love others, while not condoning sin. As for dignity, it needs no outward comeliness. The 2 most dignified, majestic figures were chained, dirty, and sealed their testimonies with their blood.
    We believe that all men have agency to act the way they want, but marriage is between a man and woman. Please keep to the issues, without spreading hate.

  • greatbam22 andrews afb, MD
    Feb. 27, 2014 2:51 p.m.

    ****Work in Progress*** Bridge Building ***Work in Progress****

  • Turtle Owasso, OK
    Feb. 27, 2014 1:34 p.m.

    @marxist

    "You'll get no argument from me that the family is under attack and is endangered. Nor will I argue that the preservation of the family is critical to our survival."

    Are you serious? You do not believe that the family is central to the preservation of society? It always has been and always will be. Do you not know the history of civilizations that went through the same cycle we are now in? Where are they now? On the heap!

    "The low wage system is driven by the capitalist class which wants wages to be as low as possible to advance profit. The culture itself is threatened by an outrageously top heavy distribution of wealth."

    Apparently you lack and understanding of how the capitalist society works. Those who work hard, get educated or trained make themselves capable of being producers instead of consumers. That helps them become upwardly mobile and successful. They do not desire that the rest have low wages, but that is a natural result for those who do nothing for their own future.

  • JCL Brazil, 00
    Feb. 27, 2014 10:57 a.m.

    Brazil is one of the biggest fertile ground for attacks on the family. The country is under a non-declared communist regime...

  • RFLASH Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 27, 2014 10:53 a.m.

    This man talks about human dignity, human rights, and human flourishing! Three things that he would deny gay people. They shift the entire situation around and want people to believe that they are the victims! I don't see anybody telling Brother Monson or any ot the general authorities that they are not worthy of God! Nobody is telling any of them that they are not good enough to get married and that they shouldn't have any children! This man is talking about dignity? Well, try being told that others get the right to spit on you when you try to get served in their business. What was this man saying about dignity? Human rights was also mentioned. They want their human right to be believe that gay people have no value! They want the religous freedom to discriminate! They want the right to say it all come from God!
    I think we know by now how Mormons feel about gay people and there is no dignity in their beliefs about gays. There are no gay human rights in the Mormon's religous freedom! They most definitely do not want gay people to have " Human Flourishing" as mentioned!

  • Free Agency Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 27, 2014 9:54 a.m.

    @Dan Maloy

    ". . . homosexual behavior is a sin. Always has been, always will be."

    Dan, what you've stated is your *belief.* And that's fine, we all have beliefs. The only problem is, you didn't state it as a belief. You stated it as a fact. And you can't reasonably do that.

    Yes, it may be a fact to you--but that doesn't make it a fact in general society. If you look at my original posting (p. 3 of these Comments), you'll see my "court of law" remark regarding the difference between facts and beliefs.

    I'm sure you consider your Mormon religion your "faith." Well, the reason we call it faith is because we can't prove it factually. That's why we have faith in it. If we could prove it factually, we wouldn't need "faith."

    It's fine for you to believe in whatever you like, as long as you don't hurt others. But you're wasting your breath when you state your beliefs as facts, and hope to convince others that they are facts. In short, you lose all credibility in your arguments when you do so.

  • brokenclay Tempe, AZ
    Feb. 27, 2014 8:39 a.m.

    As an evangelical, I am genuinely excited by the very real prospect (and in some cases already actual) of secular oppression. We, the church, will finally be put in the position we should be-- despised and mistreated servants. This will only serve to forge our character. The church is not owed the privileges she has enjoyed in America.

    "Love does not insist on its own way. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." (1 Cor 13:5, 7)

    "When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure; when slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things." (1 Cor 4:12-13)

    "The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.” (Job 1:21)

    "In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” (Jn 16:33)

    "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness." (James 1:2-3)

  • Rae M. Bountiful , UT
    Feb. 27, 2014 12:29 a.m.

    ENDavis, the savior taught that "Whether by mine own voice or the voice of mine own servants, it is the same." The leader of the LDS Church proclaimed that marriage is between a man and a woman. We are commanded that a man will cleave unto his wife, and to multiply and replenish the earth.
    A child born to mother and father has the best chance of succeeding in this world. Studies overwhelmingly indicate children without the father in the home struggle. How much more they struggle without the effect of the nurturer, the mother, I can only imagine.
    History is replete with societies which thrived with marriage between a man and a woman. However, I know of only one which ever existed before today, with homosexuality, and it was destroyed.
    Many thoughtful comments have been posted here, it has been very helpful, indeed.

  • A Run South Jordan, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 10:40 p.m.

    You know, people say that they are just trying to do what the constitution states, giving everyone freedom of religion, speech, etc.., as well as following the 14th amendment. This is true completely. Everyone should be able to have as many rights as they want.

    However, as in the recent bill in Arizona... The constitution does say that no state shall deny equal protection of law. It does not say that the citizens can't refuse service to other citizens

    That last sentence sounds bad, and probably reminds people of oppression of the blacks during the 1960s. Many of you are probably going to say Blah Blah Blah Civil Rights Act Blah Blah Blah. This still sounds terrible. The civil rights act of 1964 says that you can't discriminate based of of Gender, race, religion, color, origin. Last time I checked, Homosexual isn't a religion. Also, because the companies in Arizona sold to both male and female, just not to gays, it is legal to do so. It may not be right, and it is not my position to decide, but it is LEGAL

  • SuziQ Springville, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 9:35 p.m.

    It seems to me that we need as many allies as we can get in this fight to keep our religious freedoms. Because there are so many in our society that have no absolute values, they cannot understand the depth of conviction that others have on the issue of same-gender marriage. And unless we stand together, they will also never know how many people feel strongly about it. The silent majority has been silent way too long. The societal shift to destroy marriage began in the 60's with free love. The movement to has destroyed the sanctity of life (legal abortions) and marriage (cohabitation & same sex marriage). This has led to the destabilization and devaluation of families. We see the consequences in higher crime rates and random senseless acts of violence. Strong families make strong societies. The celebration of individuals makes for weaker societies.

  • TimBehrend Auckland NZ, 00
    Feb. 26, 2014 9:29 p.m.

    Christoph, i very much support your belief that the Bible (i.e., your interpretation of the Bible) is more important than the U.S. Constitution. I support other religionists similar to you who believe the Qur'an or any other 'sacred' text is more important than the Constitution. The Constitution doesn't require anyone to 'believe' in it. It doesn't even require anyone to believe in the idea of America, to be patriotic, to be a nationalist. It is, however, the founding legal document of the United States and the point of reference for every law and governmental practice. As long as devout men and women like you restrict your behaviour to what is legal (which includes hating any class of person that you want), more power to you. Feel free to put up anti-gay posters in your place of business or on your lawn. But when your beliefs have the effect of denying people with different beliefs equal protection under the law, your elevation of the Qur'an or the Bible cannot be accepted by society.

  • christoph Brigham City, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 8:38 p.m.

    The Bible is more important than the Constitution. Gay marriage will force us all to choose which of these two documents are more important. Your future will between choosing between the commandments and community or the law suit and taking offense at the slightest offense.

  • Lilly Munster netherlands, 00
    Feb. 26, 2014 7:59 p.m.

    What an absurd statement. Religion, which dominates Politics, Legislatures, Schools and every Public Forum, is certainly NOT being persecuted. Protestant Christianity has dominated every single facet of this Nation. Just ask anyone who is not a Fundamentalist, Protestant Christian.
    This man needs to back down on the False Witness posturing.

  • No Longer Anti-Mormon peyton, CO
    Feb. 26, 2014 6:08 p.m.

    I gladly embrace those that are not of the LDS church! I use to be one of them. They believe as strongly about what they believe as I do about what I believe. Does that mean that we can't serve together for the same purpose? If he were my neighbor in the same apartment building, and the building was on fire, am I suppose to tell him that I don't want his help extinguishing the fire, because he has voiced his opinion about my church and what I believe? No! Our 'country' is going down in flames!!! Also, as a child I was shunned by many LDS kids, because I was not LDS. As a young adult I learned the truth of the gospel when I was finally accepted into a group of LDS friends. I had probably said a lot worse things about the church than Mr. Mohler ever said. LDS members know religious 'persecution'! Let's not be the 'persecutor'! Mr. Mohler, I applaud your appearance at BYU!

  • src8 Newark Valley, NY
    Feb. 26, 2014 5:13 p.m.

    @ENDavis, Perhaps you don't see a difference in living in a world where sin and vice are the accepted norm compared to a world where sin and vice are kept from public display and limited in as much as possible for the safety and enjoyment of a highly cultured society. There again I feel for you.

  • src8 Newark Valley, NY
    Feb. 26, 2014 5:11 p.m.

    @ENDavis, Let me give you an example: Who so ever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery in his heart. This is sin, the forces of attraction should not be ruled by sexual desire and appetite. Woman lusting after women and men after men falls into the same category. I'm sorry for you if you don't see it the way Christ taught it, it was pretty clear. An argument that homosexuals need a sexual relationship to survive would be bogus since lust is ever a good justification for a relationship. If the relationship was between two men or two women living in the same house was non-sexual they would just be friends, right? God and religion have no problem with this either, a friendship is not a marriage but we always hope a marriage man/women is the best kind of friendship with each other and God.

  • TimBehrend Auckland NZ, 00
    Feb. 26, 2014 4:51 p.m.

    Christianity is not under attack, nor do most Christians beieve it is. This is an extreme position of the political far right who articulate their politics in terms of Christian texts. What is under attack is Christian cultural hegemony. That's all.

  • Tiago Seattle, WA
    Feb. 26, 2014 4:38 p.m.

    @ IsaacsTM : "People with SSA can choose to marry and have children and live the law of chastity. (see Josh Weed's story). That is our position"

    Just want to make clear that what you said is absolutely not the LDS church position and Josh Weed specifically said on his blog that his story should not be used as you just tried to use it. President Hinckley said "marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations." The church pamphlet God Loveth His Children says "the perfect plan of our Father in Heaven makes provision for individuals who seek to keep His commandments but who, through no fault of their own, do not have an eternal marriage in mortal life."
    Some people who experience SSA can function in mixed orientation marriages--many others. cannot. Those who remain faithful, single, and celibate are following God's plan for them and are entitled to all the blessings God has promised.

  • Kelliebelle66 West Jordan, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 4:09 p.m.

    While I believe the Constitution should cover all Americans no matter their race, religion or sexuality I do not believe that marriage is a right provided in the constitution. I do have a gay brother who just adopted a child with his partner. I love my brother and his partner and I consider their child my nephew. They know my beliefs and we have love and respect for each other despite differences. After this court ruling I realized that the Proclamation to the Family that was written by the First Presidency of the Church to outline our beliefs regarding family is basically under this ruling against the law, at least the portion that defines marriage as being between a man and a woman. I have the Proclamation hanging on the wall right inside my entry way in my home and it will not be coming down even if the powers that be deem it to be illegal. I fear that day is closer than I thought as freedom of religion and freedom of speech are being suppressed in tandem. However gays can speak out against religion all they like and sue people who have different beliefs and win.

  • Dan Maloy Enid, OK
    Feb. 26, 2014 4:01 p.m.

    Awesome!

    I served my mission in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama for 2 years. Then I lived in northern Mississippi for 3 years during an Air Force assignment. Then we lived in south Georgia for another 4 years. And I have lived in northern Oklahoma for over 7 years. One thing I have learned is there are thousands and thousands and thousands of good, decent, faithful Christians in the southeast part of the U.S., meaning specifically, good and decent Christians who do not belong to the LDS church.

    We are, as 'Mormon' Christians, not alone, and I find that incredibly refreshing and strengthening.

    We do indeed have differences. But our samenesses outweigh our differences, and the more the LDS church and non-LDS churches work together, the more we will realize that important truth.

    Speaking of the rapidly growing divide in America, homosexual behavior is a sin. Always has been, always will be.

    If I eventually go to jail for speaking the truth, so be it.

    God bless America and those of us, LDS or not, who still love her as God intended her to be.

  • donn layton, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 3:20 p.m.

    RE: Ranch, Bill Owens, President of CAAP said,
    As much as President Obama and Atty General Holder would like it to be otherwise, we live in a democracy—with government of, by, and for the people—not a monarchy ruled by a king issuing decrees from on high. The citizens of several states who have voted overwhelmingly to preserve marriage have had their votes voided and thrown out by radical federal judges, and the Obama administration, the Justice Department has been shamefully complicit in this attack on the rights of those voters.

    RE: ENDavis. Jesus , “They record that from the beginning ‘God made them male(Adam) and female(Eve, [Not Steve]”.., a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one. MT 14:5 NLT.

    RE: cassandove. "non-Christians" – including LDS. True,

    The Manhattan declaration was created by the Christian community (Roman Catholics,Orthodox and Protestants).

    LDS were not excluded from the Christian community declaration for sociological reasons but for many Theological reasons. i.e.. Christians believe in one God.

  • SCfan clearfield, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 3:16 p.m.

    Ranch
    By your reasoning it was OK for the Jews to be singled out in Germany. That is what I mean by an attack on one is an attack on all. Understand?

  • src8 Newark Valley, NY
    Feb. 26, 2014 3:16 p.m.

    @Hutterite, No, Dems and Libs are in fact trying to limit religious liberty. Homosexual relationships have nothing, exactly nothing to do with the word marriage! Gay Marriage is a perversion of the language as well as a perversion of moral code.

  • src8 Newark Valley, NY
    Feb. 26, 2014 3:09 p.m.

    Discrimination appears to be a dirty word to many people these days. It's a real shame that so many people can't Discriminate (judge) between good and evil, right and wrong, Male and Female. So many have no moral justification for calling marriage something it is not, other than; it should be whatever they want to call it. They pervert the meaning of the constitution saying; homosexual relations is all about equal rights of couples doing whatever they want. In fact the constitution says nothing of marriage relationships and has everything to do what protecting individual liberties and allowing equal treatment under the law, including protecting religious thought and culture. Laws of the State and of the US are enacted by state legislatures and Congress and should not be interpreted by judicial and administrative process. They should only enforce the laws. Congress in a bipartisan way approved DOMA and for some reason the LIBs and Dems think they can go around congress and State legislatures. It's going to come back and bite them. They will be put out of office and their strong arm methods will be put to shame for years to come. The sooner the better!

  • Alex 1 Tucson, AZ
    Feb. 26, 2014 2:27 p.m.

    The dangers to religious liberty that we contend with are so much more weighty a matter in the current environment than whether Evangelicals believe I belong to a cult. That is the least of my worries. The nice thing about Evangelicals nowadays is that, by in large, if you have thick skin, you can live in a neighborhood where everybody thinks you are going to hell, but yet have little threat to your religious liberty. I prefer this over the smooth-tongued, saccharine, behind the back, passive-aggressive opposition to my beliefs using the force of government. Even those Evangelicals who fear for my salvation more often than not treat me with far less vitriol and condescension than many secular zealots. Sure, I realize that at one time in the early history of the church, the Evangelicals were the ones oppressing us, but it is not so much the case anymore, at least not in my experience. I'd rather be told I'm going to hell, than to actually go there.

  • ENDavis Lehi, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 2:03 p.m.

    I've heard a lot of commentary by FOLLOWERS of Jesus, and people who claim the right to speak on behalf of God, about this subject, but since Jesus is the one these people claim to be the head of their religion, I'd like someone to find me a quote by Jesus, personally, that he gave on the subject of homosexuality, or same sex marriage. I have read much of the Bible, and have yet to see anything from him. He did however tell people to love their neighbors as themselves. I may be mistaken, but I assume that means treating all people equally.

    On the subject of religious liberty: Freedom of religion is the freedom for each person to practice his/her own religion, and believe whatever they want to believe. It is not the freedom to impose your personal way of life on the rest of society. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God... and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. If a person truly believes that, then it's time to show it.

  • IsaacsTM Huntingtown, MD
    Feb. 26, 2014 1:27 p.m.

    Alma 30:17 - Korihor taught that "whatsoever a man did was no crime" and 18 says that he led away many men and women to commit whoredoms. He lied about the Nephite's teachings/religion and positions. Apply this story to where we are at now in the USA. Wow. Textbook. I watch the news and saw some interviews about what is going on in Arizona. Can I say that we as conservatives/religious people are horrible at answering the charge that we are homophobes? We we not develop proper talking points to refute that? Jesus is not a homophobe. People with SSA can choose to marry and have children and live the law of chastity. (see Josh Weed's story). That is our position, we believe that people with SSA will ultimately live happier lives by controlling their passions (as everyone is commanded to do anyway) and marrying and having their own family. Josh Weed did it and is a fantastic example. BTW - irony - he is persecuted by the gay community for his choice of who to marry. Should they not be celebrating him? It is NOT homophobic to believe that Josh's experience is preferable.

  • cassandove Tampa, FL
    Feb. 26, 2014 12:39 p.m.

    As a former Southern Baptist myself, I am honestly surprised that he hasn't lost his job teaching the theological seminary. Normally, engaging with "non-Christians" - including Latter-day Saints, because they believe the Nicene Creed defines Christianity - without the intent to convert gets Southern Baptist theologians in a lot of trouble with their colleagues and superiors.

  • antodav TAMPA, FL
    Feb. 26, 2014 12:30 p.m.

    -___- If we are all to go to jail together, PLEASE give me a cell in solitary confinement.

    Also, the condemnation that this guy is receiving from this Evangelical Protestant peers for even TALKING to Mormons illustrates exactly why it is wholly unrealistic for us to seriously consider an alliance with them.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 12:27 p.m.

    SCfan says:
    "...an attack on one religion is an attack on all religions."

    ---

    That is patently false. There are numerous religions that believe same-sex marriage is okay and are 100% willing to perform them. The LDS Church and these Evangelicals have joined forces to *attack* these religions that believe differently. There are so many varieties out there that you can find any flavor you desire. Liking chocolate is not an attack on vanilla. Liking strawberry is not an attack on chocolate-chip-cookie-dough. Get the idea?

    @Tekakaromatagi;

    At it's heart, the LDS church itself is nothing more than "government" (of the religious). I guess that makes them "incompetent" too.

    @Free Agency;

    I disagree. No business should be allowed to discriminate against any customers.

    @J-TX;

    Those "radicals" are the very reason we have the rights today that we do. Thank them!

  • pacnwmom Vancouver, WA
    Feb. 26, 2014 11:40 a.m.

    Can we get back to our prophets and apostles teaching us how to be more like our Savior Jesus Christ? Teaching His words and how to implement them in our lives? Because the things He asked of us are not easy and I could use wise counsel and inspiration. Last General Conference was less than uplifting with all the right wing propaganda culture mixed in. Except President Uchtdorf. His talks always inspire me in my walk with Christ!

  • LouisD Las Vegas, NV
    Feb. 26, 2014 11:06 a.m.

    Jeremiah was put in stocks. Isaiah was sawed in half. Peter was crucified upside down. Prophets have given us a rich history of suffrage for faith. I hope President Monson goes to England, stands firm in the well of a secular court and presents himself as Christ's vicar, just a the prophet Abinadi. We have experienced a hundred years of little persecution for our beliefs...and now we must step it up in the face of it. Who will stand for Christ in these times? Certainly our Prophet should even if in some way they intend to deny him his God given liberty to speak against evil. I and perhaps a million other Latter Day Saints would also stand in his place if necessary.

  • J-TX Allen, TX
    Feb. 26, 2014 10:55 a.m.

    I see the day coming in the very near future when the LDS Church will no longer allow civil ceremonies or receptions in their meeting houses, because gays or lesbians will sue the Church for not making the same available to them.

    This is not paranoia. It is merely a very logical extension of the case of the cameraman.

    While I have many LGBT associates and friends, and most have a live-and-let-live attitude, there is a very real, very vocal radical LGBT element which will not be happy until they tear down any and all perceived 'barriers'. Just as there is a very real, very vocal radical right 'Christian' element which will not be happy until they deny all rights to the LGBT community.

    Though they do not espouse our beliefs, nor care to participate in our religion or rites, they feel we should not be able to either, just because it WOULD infringe on them IF they WERE to choose to opt to engage. It is offensive to them, and therefore should be squelched. The very height of intolerance, preached by those who preach tolerance.

  • hobblecreek ,
    Feb. 26, 2014 10:31 a.m.

    While we defend our right for religious freedoms we always seem to act like it is them versus us. Every person is entitled to live their lives according to the dictates of their own conscience. I will defend my right to live my faith, but I would be a hypocrite to do it while trying to take away the rights of others to live their freedoms of choice. EVERYONE has a right to live religiously or not. Religious freedom means just that. Why are people so convinced that it is an attack on religious freedom if someone else is given freedom to live their life their way? My religious freedoms have not been diminshed at all in the 30 years i have been a member of my faith, in fact I have found more tolerance and understanding of my beliefs from a wider spectrum of the nation- call it Tolerance and Respect. Where does the Paranoia of my fellow Saints come from?- that has become the enemy!

  • Bob Pomeroy Bisbee, AZ
    Feb. 26, 2014 10:31 a.m.

    what has happened to 'patience, long-suffering and persuasion'?

  • Boo in Boston Boston, MA
    Feb. 26, 2014 10:30 a.m.

    Who really cares that, historically, South Baptists and their leaders have insisted that Mormons are not real Christians? A future Latter-day Saint presidential candidate might!

    Please do recall that in 2008 and again in 2012 presidential candidate Mitt Romney's beliefs were ridiculed and disingenuously misrepresented by Mike Huckabee, a Southern Baptist minister, as well as by the leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention and host Southern Baptists throughout the South and the nation, including a distant Romney relative, the proprietor of “Christian” bookstore in Utah. I don't recall that any of them ever apologized for their errors or attempted to clarify the record.

    Back in the 1976 Democratic primaries, future President Jimmy Carter, a Southern Baptist Sunday School teacher at the time, was critical of Mo Udall's Mormon background and the teachings of his church. In short, the history of Southern Baptist animas toward Latter-day Saints and their beliefs dates all back to the earliest days of the church in Jackson County, Missouri.

    While making friends and building alliances are worthy endeavors, this apparent rapprochement between the Southern Baptists and eagerly accommodating Mormons strikes me as expedient, one-sided, transparently insincere and, probably, fleeting.

  • Free Agency Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 10:27 a.m.

    @Judith D.

    Thanks for your response. I’m afraid, though, that many people who are against SSM would—even if their religion was made exempt from performing SSM—still have concerns: e.g., schools teaching that it’s okay to be gay, that SSM is fine, etc.

    As I said, we need to consider each situation individually. Am I being made to do something that goes against my highest values? That would be wrong. Am I trying to push my religious views onto all of our society? (The baker was not, he simply wanted to exempt himself.) That, too, would be wrong.

    It cuts both ways, and I share your concern about the zealotry of the far left. It reminds of the peasant response during the French Revolution—“Death to all Aristos and their associates!” In this case, the cry is, “Apply the ‘bigot’ and ‘homophobe’ labels to anyone who doesn’t agree with us!”

    Such seems to be human nature, and I hope the reasonable folks on both sides will “come out of the closet” and work together for a just America.

  • SCfan clearfield, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 10:26 a.m.

    elarue
    A valid point, about both secularism and religion needing the same constitutional protection. However, if one becomes oppressive to the other, it is a bad imbalance that threatens liberty. In many Arab countries, the religion overwhelms any secular (or non Muslim religions) and that is not freedom as we would want it. But the same holds true if a country were to put religion in the "closet" and make a religiously influenced society non existent. And today that idea is gaining ground among some in the academic, and liberal, and media communities. So religion must fight to hold their ground and have an equal access to society.

  • Sneaky Jimmy Bay Area, CA
    Feb. 26, 2014 10:25 a.m.

    I wish to follow Christ and welcome everyone at HIS table. Why is my religious belief being trampled? Why are these "Christians" trying to force me to turn my back on my gay brothers and sisters? "Their lips draw near me but their hearts are far from me"

  • Mayfair City, Ut
    Feb. 26, 2014 10:02 a.m.

    While I am very grateful for all the good Mohler said, I too am troubled by the unnecessary and inflammatory rhetoric.

    You can bet if Elder Christofferson or Oaks or Holland or Anderson etc etc been asked to speak at his seminary, they would have never been so blatant and offensive.

  • windsor City, Ut
    Feb. 26, 2014 9:51 a.m.

    Irony Guy said "As a faithful LDS, I am truly baffled. Nobody has silenced me or threatens to"

    All I can say is-- you must not get out much.

  • Tekakaromatagi Dammam, Saudi Arabia
    Feb. 26, 2014 9:35 a.m.

    @Marxist:
    "Only lefties like me think such is important. Why don't evangelicals and Mormons care about these things? Please someone explain."

    Why don't evangelicals and Mormons care about these things? Please someone explain."

    I think that it is because Mormons recognize that the government, at best, is incompetent. If you want to eliminate poverty, go out and do it yourself, don't wait for the HHS and Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi or Hugo Chavez to get involved. May be they will come to their sense, but I won't hold my breath. I will do what I can now.

    Mormon scriptures talk about the city of Enoch where there were no poor. If you conclude that the government can't do anything, then can you go and achieve your Marxist dream without them? You may want to look up about the LDS church's welfare program. That is a start.

  • elarue NEW YORK, NY
    Feb. 26, 2014 9:33 a.m.

    SCfan - defending the free exercise of religion also means defending the free exercise of the non-religious. Unfortunately, people like Mohler are committing acts of religious oppression in the guise of defending against it, and we would do well to not buy into his cynical rhetoric to try to get us to enable him, or worse, to do as he does.

  • Tekakaromatagi Dammam, Saudi Arabia
    Feb. 26, 2014 9:25 a.m.

    @Quaker:
    "As a Quaker, I will defend the right of Mormons and Evangelicals to worship in any manner they wish. In their own homes and churches/temples."
    If there is a war and there is a draft, many of us on this page believe that Quakers should have the right to claim themselves a conscientious objectors because of their pacifist beliefs.

    Accord the same right and privilege to others.

  • SCfan clearfield, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 9:10 a.m.

    Mr. Mohler may not agree with LDS theology at all, but what he does agree with is that an attack on one religion is an attack on all religions. And, it can't be denied that there is much common ground values in all religion, whether Christian or Jew, or Islam. It is also ironic that this is a time when some on the left are trying to advocate or find ways to stifle debate that is not PC. These types of changes come slowly until they are ingrained in a population as normal. That is the danger Mr. Mohler and others are warning us about to watch out for happening in this country as more and more secularism controls the education and media in America. History shows that the most oppressive regimes come largely from the left. Particularly 20th century history.

  • speed66 Heber City, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 9:05 a.m.

    Absolutely delicious! The comments here are fascinating...no better way to spend a relaxful morning.

    Has anyone considered that the alliance between Mohler - who thinks very little of Mormon doctrine - and the LDS church is a business deal to product their "business". Both religions speak directly to god but apparently he is a bit fickle in his rules as he tells each that they are his favorite...go figure.

    Yes, religion and religious institutions should be concerned. Religion is dying. Religious dogma is being abandoned for independent, scientifically validated thought. Common sense is prevailing over tradition and the boogie man. Mohler can predict the catastrophic future of humanity but can't see climate change.

    He's a lobbyist plain and simple and the LDS church is using him to sound the alarm - as fictitious as it might be. Tobacco companies joined forces even though they were competitors and now the All-American LDS Religion is joining forces with the original religion, Baptist to bolster business for all. Rah, rah, rah...save our tax free, invisibile product, power wielding business!

  • Judith D. Los Angeles, CA
    Feb. 26, 2014 8:58 a.m.

    @Free Agency,

    Thank you for your voice of reason. I am convinced that if legislation were passed securing the type of religious freedom you referenced, much of the fear regarding gay marriage would evaporate. Many on the far left are frightening in their near-religious zealousy to eliminate religion. If legislation were passed that coupled the legality of gay marriage with a reaffirmation that this new right would never require a church to perform gay marriages, many people would be much less concerned about gay marriage. Many fear that in a court battle pitting the right to marry against religous rights, the current climate of this nation result in the right to marry triumphing over religious rights. Although some consider this unlikely, if they spent any time with the militant left, who seem to be gaining strength in this nation, they would quickly see that many people would love to see religion and religous rights fade away in this country. These people see the influence of religion as the final barrier to this country embracing their view of the world.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 8:51 a.m.

    What nonsense! The right wing needs to stop the sensationalism, misrepresentation and hyperbole. I am deeply troubled that my Church is getting so deep into this partisan campe that it will be further marginalized as a true world religion. It is short-sighted and utter folly.

    One other note: I would bet anything that once a Republican is elected to the White House again, all of this nonsense will disappear. This is partisanship, based on a profound underlying hatred. This form of Christianity is antithetical to the Gospel of Christ, and I am sad to see my alma mater and my Church dabble so deeply in it.

  • pat1 Taylorsville, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 8:27 a.m.

    We live in a time of great secularism that is increasing every day. I'm glad this gentleman was able to speak at BYU. Nevertheless, evangelical Christians as a whole are very suspicious of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and members of the church in the South are not only in the minority but face ostracism by their evangelical neighbors to this day.

  • Jamescmeyer Midwest City, USA, OK
    Feb. 26, 2014 8:18 a.m.

    It's easy to tell how important a particular truth is based just on how much people comment on it, positively or negatively.

    Even if I didn't already know the validity of this speaker's address at BYU, that so many have something to say about it clues me in that there is something good and extremely important involved that the devil wants to defame and hide.

  • Free Agency Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 8:17 a.m.

    Mr. Mohler and his allies (including the Mormon Church) would do well to present their case in reasonable terms rather than in "this nation is abandoning God" terms. The latter is simply one's beliefs and holds no weight with those who don't share those beliefs.

    If I were called as a witness at a trial and testified, "I believe the defendant did it, I'm convinced the defendant did it, I have every faith the defendant did it," my testimony would be inadmissible unless I came up with facts to support my beliefs.

    So it is in this country (as opposed to, e.g., Uganda).

    I admit, as a gay male, that some current events do threaten religious freedom. I fully support a baker's right not to provide a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage if his religious beliefs forbid it. I also fully support the right of two same-gender consensual adults who aren't close blood relatives to marry since it only affects peoples' religion in their minds, not in reality.

    Let's take every situation individually rather than issue broad platitudes from either side, which merely play to the choir.

  • voiceofreason1234 SANDY, TX
    Feb. 26, 2014 8:05 a.m.

    It is true, religions are running scared right now. It is good to cross religious lines and shake hands, have a good repor with one another. The church is here for ALL of God's children. We should welcome others in our forum for discussion. This is healthy. It is true that the day will come when it will be very clear to members of other faiths that we are the Lord's true church (either on this side of the veil or the other) and being hospitable and kind to other faiths just helps others warm up to us, - by their fruits they shall know them. It lets them see the light in our eyes and the spirit in our facilities. This is true outreach.

    Note to editor:
    Why doesn't this comment section allow for "reply" to other comments, that would be a great improvement, please implement this. It would be waaaay better for the dialogue.

    Thanks! - PS it's not Sandy Texas, but Round Rock. The zip code changed domains.

  • donn layton, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 7:48 a.m.

    Re: A Quaker. A Christian preacher,Billy Graham supported Romney,” on the biblical definition of marriage, protect the sanctity of life and defend our religious freedoms.” Christians believe that President Obama has undertaken policies that encroach on religious freedom.

    The Manhattan Declaration. Christians will not comply with any edict that purports to compel our institutions to participate in abortions, embryo­-destructive research, assisted suicide and euthanasia, or any other anti-­life act; nor will we bend to any rule purporting to force us to bless immoral sexual partnerships, treat them as marriages or the equivalent, or refrain from proclaiming the truth, as we know it, about morality and immorality and marriage and the family. We will fully and ungrudgingly render to Caesar what is Caesar’s. But under no circumstances will we render to Caesar what is God’s. i.e..

    After the judicial imposition of “same­-sex marriage” in Massachusetts, for example, Catholic Charities chose with great reluctance to end its century­ long work of helping to place orphaned children in good homes rather than comply with a legal mandate that it place children in same­-sex households in violation of Catholic moral teaching.

  • Powderskier Provo, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 7:36 a.m.

    My ancestors were burned out of Nauvoo by evangelicals professing similar intolerance, and I am not amused by Mohler's repeated comments to the BYU students that their faith is false and will lead to eternal damnation. Why does BYU keep inviting these right-wingers to campus? In the grove, Joseph was told that their religions were all false, that their professors were corrupt, and that he should join none of them. He was not told to avoid science, arts, and learning and civil society in general.

    If Jesus came today would He go to the the Baptist Theological Seminar or would we find Him meekly trying to love and minister the HIV/AIDS community, the homeless, immigrants, little children, addicts, and others who have little voice in our society?

    As a faithful Latter-day Saint, I respect our leaders reaching out to people of all faiths, but we need to be crystal clear on the agenda of intolerance evangelicals espouse in the current culture wars: if these folks ever get into power, Mormons will be the first up against the wall.

  • Bill McGee Alpine, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 7:35 a.m.

    Yes, that Black baker needs to bake that cake for the KKK rally. And that KKK member cannot put a No Blacks or Jews Allowed sign in the window of his diner - even if he is morally offended by Jews because he feels they killed Jesus. And Baptists cannot put a No Mormons Allowed sign in the windows of their stores because they don't think we are Christian. And a Mormon cannot refuse to serve a Gay couple because he doesn't like them. We settled this in the sixties when we reaffirmed the idea that this is America, and everyone here is equal. Get over it.

  • BobF2012 kitchener, 00
    Feb. 26, 2014 7:27 a.m.

    Like several other people who have posted here, I don't understand why a man who is openly critical of our faith is invited to speak at BYU. I'm also amazed that speakers are given an audience at BYU to repeat paranoid right-wing talking points. No one is proposing rounding up Christians and putting them in prisons. A generation ago, restaurants and all other businesses were mandated by law to serve anyone who requested service, regardless of colour. Civilization did not come crashing to an end; rather, it moved forward.
    The LDS Church doesn't recognize same-sex marriage; as a religion that is its right. As an active member of the Church, I agree. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman, and I live by that belief. Other people believe something else about marriage; I respect their right to live according to their belief.

  • elarue NEW YORK, NY
    Feb. 26, 2014 7:16 a.m.

    Seriously? This is just right wing baiting trying to scare religious people into supporting them and their anti-family economic policies. No one's going to jail for being religious in America, so seriously, why did this guy even get a platform to spout off such nonsense, and why is the Deseret News publishing it as if what he says is actually legitimate? Members of the church who have the Holy Ghost should recognize this for exactly what it is - a cynical attempt by Satan to get members of the church to vote Republican.

  • Bill McGee Alpine, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 7:16 a.m.

    It is interesting to me that Mohler argues that a belief in a "divine creation" is the foundation for human rights, that among those human rights is the freedom of religion, and that religion justifies denying some of those same human rights to groups of people he doesn't like. The circular logic is amazing.

  • rightascension Provo, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 4:54 a.m.

    I would like to see, when it comes right down to it, how many Mormons and Evangelicals are looking forward to willingly go to jail together to maintain their abstract definitions.

  • ArizonaMormon Mesa, AZ
    Feb. 25, 2014 11:41 p.m.

    Willem,

    Do be honest, I don't listem to much of what Eric Holder says. He is a poster child for the Obama administrations commitment to espousing ideology at the expense of effectively governing.

  • oragami St. George, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 10:52 p.m.

    "There is no secular ground," he added, "that can support and defend human rights."

    The theory that religion is a force for peace, or the advancement of human rights does not fit the facts of history. The scriptures present a God who delights in genocide, rape, slavery, and the execution of nonconformists, and for millennia those writings were used to rationalize the massacre of infidels, the ownership of women, the beating of children, dominion over animals, and the persecution of heretics and homosexuals. Humanitarian reforms such as the elimination of cruel punishment, the dissemination of empathy-inducing novels, and the abolition of slavery were met with fierce opposition in their time by ecclesiastical authorities and their apologists.

    Thus, as a student of history, I fear religious zeal, certainty, and unsupported claims of superiority more than just about anything. Civilization as we know it exists despite religion, not because of it. Thank you enlightened thinkers and progressives.

  • Willem Los Angeles, CA
    Feb. 25, 2014 10:17 p.m.

    The nation’s first black attorney general, Mr. Holder has said he views today’s gay-rights campaigns as a continuation of the civil rights movement that won rights for black Americans in the 1950s and ’60s. He has called gay rights one of “the defining civil rights challenges of our time.”Mormons are you listening?

  • Instereo Eureka, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 10:13 p.m.

    When I look at legislation that's been passed or is proposed, I don't see the progressive left trying to limit religion, I see the "right" trying to impose their values on others.

  • ArizonaMormon Mesa, AZ
    Feb. 25, 2014 9:28 p.m.

    Only a few years ago, people on the left and in the LGBT community were saying that they were only fighting for the right to marry, that it wasn't about forcing anyone to do anything. Now, surprise, they are trying to tell us that our freedom to practice our religion is restricted and that it does not extend to our business transactions or to our private life. It would be like me telling a gay man to go back into the closet, because that shouldn't be out in public. (Which, by the way, I would never do.)

    There most assuredly is a war on religion. There is an attempt to shove religion into the the closet. You could make an argument that such would be retribution for the unfair way LGBTs were treated in the past, but since when is revenge sound public policy.

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 9:15 p.m.

    Yes, we are in the midst of culture wars - those for religious freedom and decency versus those for immorality and godlessness. I say, bring-it-on.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Feb. 25, 2014 9:05 p.m.

    As a faithful LDS, I am truly baffled. Nobody has silenced me or threatens to. What kind of paranoia is Mohler trying to spread?

  • a bit of reality Shawnee Mission, KS
    Feb. 25, 2014 8:49 p.m.

    Before statehood, Utah fought against federal laws that outlawed polygamy, claiming that such laws violated their religious liberty. Leaders of the Church went to jail for being polygamists in definace of federal law. They lost that battle, and as a condition of statehood, polygamy became illegal in Utah.

    Some 140 years later, the Utah state laws against polygamy have been struck down by a federal judge. In response, this editorial is claiming that the religious freedom of Mormons is NOW being violated, which may result in non-Mormon Christians and Mormons going to jail together.

    Am I the only one who sees the irony?

  • Back Talk Federal Way, WA
    Feb. 25, 2014 8:49 p.m.

    I am in favor or providing some religious liberty exception or right that allows people of faith to not be forced to "participate" in activties taht is against their religion. The photographer is a good example. The judge asked to perform a gay wedding. The pharmacist required to carry abortion druges etc. Provide health benefits like some kinds of birth control that violates their religion. Unfortunately, that will be hard to put in to a law.

    "Personal participation" would not apply to someone not accepting someome else beliefs,(Muslim Infidel or Baptist vs Mormon example). However, wouldnt a Muslim cab driver be allowed to refuse to transport a drunk person or someone carrying alachol?

    It is important to allow people to refuse to perform an activity in their business that violates their religion.

  • Candide Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 8:48 p.m.

    I am a lesbian that has been married for 6 years. I make breakfast, take the kids to school, go to work, walk the dogs, watch TV, spend time with family, etc. That is the gay agenda for more or less all of the gays that I know. Gay marriage will not change your life in any way. You will still be able to go to church and to believe that gays are icky. No one is restricting religious freedom. You can believe whatever you want. This is really about religious people wanting to control everyone else and to discriminate against those that don't fit into their worldview. We live in a secular society with secular laws and if you operate a business you should serve all. That is what Jesus would do.

  • Linus Bountiful, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 8:35 p.m.

    All you have to do is read the reactions to this article to witness the opposite perspectives of the godless and the God-fearing. The conflict is real, as these opposing opinions demonstrate. It will rise to the level of violence, just as it always has, beginning with Cain and Abel; the one loving the devil and the other loving God.

    I served my youthful mission among the good Christians of Oklahoma. I loved them then, as I love them now. It doesn't shake me for some to believe that my path will not lead to heaven. I'm more interested in an alliance protecting life, liberty, and our pursuit of happiness.

    Mr. Marxist: The re-distribution of wealth and the imposed equality of results you favor are not in harmony with two of those three values. It requires denial of liberty and interference in the pursuit of happiness. Never should he who chooses to be idle wear the clothing and eat the food of he who prospers by the sweat of his brow. Read your scriptures!

  • FREDISDEAD Layton, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 8:24 p.m.

    @Mack2828

    That is the BEST response/analogy to this whole NONSENSE I think I have ever read. Especially since the LGBT community keeps trying to somehow compare their CHOICE to someone being BORN a certain race.

    Spot on!

  • A Quaker Brooklyn, NY
    Feb. 25, 2014 8:20 p.m.

    @smitxxx: Your fear-mongering is baseless. As we've discussed, ad nauseum in these pages, religious clerics are free to practice their religion how they see fit. That's why we have a First Amendment. It prevents government from meddling with religion. It also prevents one religion from being able to set laws for everyone else.

    We have two worlds, that of religion, and that of science, commerce, and the humanities. You can live in one, the other, or like many of us, both. But, you have to remember that they are two worlds, not one. And of the two worlds, the only one we all can share is the latter. Because, each of our religious worlds is allowed to differ from each other. Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Lutherans, Catholics, Buddhists, Episcopalians, Nativists, and Presbyterians are each entitled to their own religious worlds, free of government dictat. This guarantee, which you seem to bemoan, is why the U.S. is perhaps the most spiritual nation in the Western World.

    Which means, no, no denomination is going to be forced to conduct any marriages, or sued for failing to.

  • nicholdraper West Jordan, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 7:57 p.m.

    I see a great benefit in ending the participation in civil marriages by the Mormon church. Once the definition of marriage is so legally divergent that the Mormon church can remove the requirement for civil marriages from its membership. This would simplify the baptismal process as many people who are joining the church have not bothered with the civil ceremony. And in countries like Sweden which penalize married people through taxes, members of the church could obtain civil divorces to save money. Frankly I think homosexuals, polygamists, and commune groups should be allowed to marry and divorce as dividing assets in divorce is really all civil marriage is. Why continue to call a temple sealing a marriage, it just confuses those who are secular.

  • donn layton, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 7:26 p.m.

    RE: Albert Mohler,signed The Manhattan Declaration because I want to put my name on its final pledge — that we will not bend the knee to Caesar. We will not participate in any subversion of life. We will not be forced to accept any other relationship as equal in status or rights to heterosexual marriage. We will not refrain from proclaiming the truth — and we will order our churches and institutions and ministries by Christian conviction.

    In recent decades a growing body of case law has paralleled the decline in respect for religious values in the media, the academy and political leadership, resulting in restrictions on the free exercise of religion. We view this as an ominous development, not only because of its threat to the individual liberty guaranteed to every person, regardless of his or her faith, but because the trend also threatens the common welfare and the culture of freedom on which our system of republican government is founded.

    RE: A Quaker, ” I will defend the right of Mormons and Evangelicals”. I’m curios did you serve in the military?

  • HelioTeller Mapleton, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 7:04 p.m.

    ultragrampa, are you telling me I don't have the right to have consensual sex with a man? You wanna bet on that?

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 6:59 p.m.

    You'll get no argument from me that the family is under attack and is endangered. Nor will I argue that the preservation of the family is critical to our survival. Where I probably differ from the religionists is in the explanation. I believe the nuclear (the extended is already shot) family is being shredded by an advanced commercial (capitalist) society which peddles all manner of filth; bad food, entertainment, and environment. Moreover the low wage economy of advanced capitalism requires both parents (if both are present) to work at least one job each so there is no parent in the home. If there is only one parent the family lives in poverty.

    The low wage system is driven by the capitalist class which wants wages to be as low as possible to advance profit. The culture itself is threatened by an outrageously top heavy distribution of wealth.

    I don't get why religionists like the group at the BYU assembly don't care about low wages or distributions of wealth. Only lefties like me think such is important. Why don't evangelicals and Mormons care about these things? Please someone explain.

  • hamaca Baton Rouge, LA
    Feb. 25, 2014 6:59 p.m.

    I tend to agree with Pleblian's comments--excellent perspective on the approach to protect the rights of both sides of the issue.

    Regarding Mohler and the others that come to discuss friendship, but feel the need to elaborate on how Mormons and their faith is wrong just to placate the hardcore Evangelicals back home, I'd say forget them. Who needs that sort of "friendship"? It's one thing to say something like "Despite our theological differences, it's important to work together...". He and the others don't stop there, however, and that's unfortunate. It's disrespectful.

    Sure there are elements in Mormon literature and elsewhere that allude to other faiths being incorrect. However, a forum with the objective of fostering the desire to work together is not the place to raise these differences.

    I can neither identify with the left or the right.

  • smitxxx Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 6:40 p.m.

    I favor cooperation with Evangelicals for the reasons given by Mr. Mohler. There is a bigger issue involved than religious differences: it is the right to practice religion at all.

    Those who believe that gay marriage is only about "equality," and that granting constitutional status to gay marriage harms nobody, are naive. As Judith D. and others have stated, their goal is to normalize homosexuality and to crush anybody who gets in the way. That means religions and religious people.

    Legalization of same sex marriage carries ominous consequences for those who fail to fall in line. Does anyone doubt that a well planned lawsuit before an undisciplined judge (like Robert Shelby, for instance) could strip religions of the right to perform any marriages unless they also perform gay marriages?

    We see the Catholic Church driven from performing adoption services in Massachusetts because they won’t place children with same sex couples. We see criminal and civil penalties assessed against individuals or businesses who refuse to provide marriage services to gay couples. This seems unthinkable, but it is happening.

    If we don't band together with like minded religions and individuals to protect our rights, we will lose them.

  • ultragrampa Farmington, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 5:27 p.m.

    Mack2828:

    You're obfuscating. The issue at hand is that of sexual morality. One side believes their God has ordained sexual relations as approved only between a man and a woman, lawfully married and the other side thinks God has no say in the matter and that they have the "right" to have sex with anyone or anything they please. That is the crux of the matter.

  • pleblian salt lake city, utah
    Feb. 25, 2014 5:22 p.m.

    I agree that there is a concerted effort to sideline religionists' rights to speak and influence public opinion.

    I also believe that effort is greatly aided by religionists' misguided attempts to use "Caesar" as a vehicle for legislating "God."

    Were I burdened with the task of public and political relations for the church, I would seize upon the current movements to solidify reliogionists rights. as every group's right to exercise a belief, unfettered by government. Only by joining the virtue of the oppositions' civil right to speak in the public square, can the religionists cement their own.

    Fighting for God in Government is always, always suspect, and usually oppressive.

  • Mack2828 Ft Thomas, KY
    Feb. 25, 2014 4:56 p.m.

    @Schnee You make a really good point. It is a two way street. Their really needs to be respect and understanding on both sides of all of these difficult issues.

  • barndog48 AMERICAN FORK, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 4:45 p.m.

    Many 'good Christians" claim Mormons are not Christians. They even say some rather unflattering things about the LDS. So now, when they perceive a threat to their power over their own sheep, they suddenly become real friendly. I think if there is a so called war on religion, it could be argued that religion fired the first shot. Maybe more and more Americans are getting fed up with the religious right's petty, self-righteous, stance on almost everything,

  • Judith D. Los Angeles, CA
    Feb. 25, 2014 4:42 p.m.

    Hutterite (and those who fail to see the attack on religion),

    I wish you were correct, but you are not. The right of homosexuals to marry will soon be weighed against religious rights. Keep in mind that the right to perform marriages is state-controlled. When a person with this state-granted right to marry refuses to marry homosexual couples, the state will seek to revoke the person's authority to perform marriages in its name. I've attended meetings where making this challenge has been seriously discussed.

    The goal has never been to stop at gaining rights for homosexuals. The goal has always been to normalize homosexual behavior in the eyes of society. This, it will be argued, is the only way to end all discrimination. When religion stands in the way of this goal, religion comes under attack. If you think otherwise, you're not paying attention.

    It won't be much longer before we see a church lose its right to marry if it refuses to marry homosexual couples based soley on a stance against same-sex marriage.

  • GreatScot Eagle Mountain, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 4:26 p.m.

    They have already arrested a preacher in Canada for citing old testament scriptures against homosexuality. And in the US they have fined businesses for not providing funding for abortions. When inalienable rights can be changed by mere humans, they are no longer inalienable.

  • Crusader Layton, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 4:25 p.m.

    Every Southern Baptist that I have ever spoken to believe without a doubt that Mormons are NOT Christians.

  • Mack2828 Ft Thomas, KY
    Feb. 25, 2014 4:23 p.m.

    Would anyone be in favor of forcing an African American baker to bake a beautiful, elaborate, decorative cake saying "Congratulations and Best of luck for a wonderful future" for a Ku Klux Klan event?

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 4:20 p.m.

    What about the religious freedom of those this Evangelical and the LDS oppose? Does their religious freedom not matter when it clashes with yours? I guess not, because you don't see this Evangelical or the LDS defending the religious liberty of these folks.

  • The Final Word Alpine, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 4:11 p.m.

    @SanAntonioreader

    Its really not that difficult to understand. They do share many of our values when it comes to religion and family. When you share a common objective there is strength in numbers. Just because you differ in some respects doesn't mean you can't affiliate and find common areas to support. Many people who started out thinking one thing about the church and their theology have learned over time that it may not actually be what they initially thought and they have changed their views. Is there a better way to make that happen than focusing on commonalities?

    Your statements just support the common media theme...you are and others have reason to somehow be uncomfortable around Christians (like they should be feared) while at the same time tossing out the innuendo that Christians can't be associated with homosexuals. Thanks for perpetuating the media lie/myth.

  • Danite Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 4:06 p.m.

    @SanAntonioreader,

    As a Latter-day Saints we have to recognize what our doctrine is also. "The great and abominable church" is interpreted as any organization that takes people away from the one true gospel with its accompanying ordinances....that would include Mohler's church. We see each other in a similar way, acknowledging major doctrinal differences that we do not believe will lead us to the same state in the afterlife: celestial kingdom (us) or heaven (them). We don't look down on them or they us simply by acknowledging our differences. Now is a time of unity and resolve to build relationships with like minded friends and strengthen our support base. We don't need to make enemies of friends because they don't believe we're going to their version of heaven. Bytheway, our Christian brothers and sisters are remarkable and it is a pleasure to work with such faithful, God fearing people. I would be surprised if we didn't see a lot more of this in the future.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 3:33 p.m.

    By the way, I'm not trying to excuse rudeness from Progressive/gay/atheist commenters, I'm just saying there's a ton of rude people on the internet across every single demographic and that believing one side of the political/spiritual aisle has a stranglehold on it doesn't seem to be the case.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 3:31 p.m.

    @Mack2828
    As opposed to those who bash atheists, homosexuals, and Progressives all the time? Check out what a non-moderated rightwing forum looks like (ex: the Blaze). You'll get the same stuff you see at the Tribune, just coming from the opposite direction.

    (On a related note, comment moderation is a large part of why I particularly like coming to this site for news and participating in these discussions, heh, even if I do occasionally lose a comment of my own from it).

  • stuff Provo, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 3:22 p.m.

    No one should ever be punished or forced out of business for not doing something they find contrary to their conscious. It is one thing to let any decent, polite person into a restaurant and an entirely different matter to force people to take pictures of gay events, making them first-hand participants.

  • Mexican Ute mexico, 00
    Feb. 25, 2014 3:14 p.m.

    stuff:

    It is incredible to say the least. The Book of Mormon, as President Benson said in General Conference back I think in April of 1987 if not October of 1986, in that we can see a parallel of the things that are going to happen before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, in the books of Helaman and 3 Nephi.

    I went a little further back into Alma and saw the parallels from the Revolution clear up to post-Civil War.

    Glad to see I am not the only one that thinks we are in 3 Nephi 1 on the parallel. 3 Nephi 2-4 are downright scary though, and if you want to see where that goes, look at the streets of Kiev and Caracas in recent days. That is coming to you guys very, very soon.

  • slcdenizen t-ville, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 2:43 p.m.

    So the pharisaic representative addresses the sadducees extolling the virtues of following the letter of the law. He may even support codifying their common understanding of the text into the law. If only this scenario had played itself out before and been written down, perhaps even included in a religious text. But I'm sure those who claimed to understand that text would take certain parts more seriously than others and miss the general concepts like "do unto others"...

  • A Quaker Brooklyn, NY
    Feb. 25, 2014 2:38 p.m.

    Nobody is seeking to persecute anyone for their religious beliefs. (Look up what "persecute" means sometime. Or read a history book about the oft-persecuted Jews.) Would that we could say the same, that no one was seeking to persecute anyone in America for their lack of religious belief. Both things are constitutionally protected, you know.

    It seems to me that we don't have a war on religion. We have a war BY religion, at least conservative religion, on secular society.

    As a Quaker, I will defend the right of Mormons and Evangelicals to worship in any manner they wish. In their own homes and churches/temples. However, I will not surrender my own right to worship and to hold beliefs and to offer religious rites to those WE choose. Nor will I surrender my right as a citizen to be free of government force in support of any religion's tenets. If government recognizes your marriages, it should recognize ours.

    Separation of Church and State, as defined in the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment is necessary to the practice of both individual religious conscience and free and fair government.

  • SanAntonioreader San Antonio, TX
    Feb. 25, 2014 2:15 p.m.

    @ Jon W.
    Thanks for the feedback. I did not advocate being "disagreeable." At the same time, I believe it would be foolish and naive to "team up" with people who really believe you are doing the devil's work. Evangelicals like Mohler are happy to feign friendship and "use" Mormons when it is convenient, but they do not "share our values." At least not mine. Since when is denying service/charity to others, regardless of their beliefs or lifestyles, an LDS value? Shouldn't we be striving to be more like the good Samaritan than the self-righteous priest and Levite in Luke 10:30-37? p.s., I am not your sister. :) I'm just a middle-age grandpa who is more comfortable in the company of my homosexual friends than "Christians" like Albert Mohler.

  • Natester Cedar Hills, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 2:07 p.m.

    I for one am overjoyed that BYU invited Mr. Mohler back. BYU and by extension, the LDS Church, agrees on far more issues with Evangelicals than they disagree. Doctrinal differences aside, the point of his speech was that Christian voices must unite instead of divide, when it comes to issues such as liberties. He's right, "We've forgotten God." If you want evidence of it, just keep reading the remainder of the reader comments, connected to this and other like articles, who will cry equality but really preach censorship. If I say my beliefs are that homosexuality is a sin and marriage shouldn't be re-defined, I'm labeled as a homophobe and I'm silenced. They claim equality and preach censorship.

  • stuff Provo, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 1:56 p.m.

    I never thought I'd see the day that this Book of Mormon scripture, written regarding the sign of the 1st Coming of the Savior, might again be fulfilled in our own day. The way religious rights are being demolished, and the hypocrisy of those who plead for tolerance and rights, it could happen, sadly.

    Now it came to pass that there was a day set apart by the unbelievers, that all those who believed in those traditions should be put to death except the sign should come to pass, which had been given by Samuel the prophet. 3 Nephi 1:9.

  • Mack2828 Ft Thomas, KY
    Feb. 25, 2014 1:38 p.m.

    The man is right. The progressive radicals are determined to eventually banish religion to the far fringe of society...or even worse. Just read the ugly, hateful comments here and at the SL Trib whenever their is an article that even remotely relates to religion. You see firsthand a very real, deep seated hatred for religion. It is dark, evil and scary to behold. And he is right, the pace they they are moving at is breathtaking.

    I have no doubt that we will eventually see the day when we will be forced to either say "homosexuality is not a sin" or go to jail. Sounds paranoid? Yeah, but if you had told someone in the '80's or '90's what we would be dealing with today they would have called you paranoid.

    Believers know that all of this craziness is only fulfilling prophesy. This day has been foretold in the scriptures for centuries. Believers also know how it will all end. But still, to live in it and through it makes me shudder just a little bit!

  • Jon W. Murray, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 1:29 p.m.

    @SanAntonioreader: It's because, as LDS people, we are taught to disagree without being disagreeable, and to work with other religions that share our values if not always our theology. I could only hope that those who wish both Mormons and Evangelicals jail time will also come to abide by the same philosophy.

    P.S. if you are my sister, HI!

  • SanAntonioreader San Antonio, TX
    Feb. 25, 2014 1:15 p.m.

    Also according to Albert Mohler, "I do not believe that Mormonism leads to salvation. To the contrary, I believe that it is a false gospel that, however sincere and kind its adherents may be, leads to eternal death rather than to eternal life. Indeed, I believe that Mormonism is a prime example of what the Apostle Paul warned the Church to reject – 'a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you.'” Can someone please explain to me why this man keeps getting invited to speak at BYU, or why any Latter-day Saint should care what he thinks?

  • LovelyDeseret Gilbert, AZ
    Feb. 25, 2014 1:00 p.m.

    How ironic. This country was originally settled by people who wanted religious freedom. Now, 400 years later we are trying to chase freedom out in the name of sexuality.
    There is no freedom without freedom of religion. The government should not force people to do things against their basic religious beliefs. Especially when it involves moral issues.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 12:50 p.m.

    They're not 'coming for' anybody. What they're coming for is your unconstitutional right to have your oppression codified against others. This kind of rhetoric is just inflammatory.