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Letter: No basis in science

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  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Feb. 26, 2014 2:25 p.m.

    LDS Lib,
    you say driving under the influence is already against the law. guess what, SO IS WEED! and where do you get off saying I tried to use the WOW to justify weed? Nowhere did I say that. I think you are confusing me with someone else on your blacklist.

    grover,
    I can make no sense of your comment. you say we have restrictions on serving booze, then ask why we don't get upset about booze. What do you think the restrictions are for?

    And since when does citing CDC studies become righteous indignation? Sounds to me like you're trying to you liberal indignation.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 8:49 p.m.

    Nanny state advocates want government to control what a person ingests. But go crazy if everyone has to get health insurance. The word of wisdom guy would put a person in jail for coffee? Does coffee lead to expresso?

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Feb. 25, 2014 7:54 p.m.

    LDS Liberal,

    Though I understand you point on choice and accountability, that argument could be applied to all things prohibited by law - heroin, meth, cocaine, etc.

    Irrespective of religion, some things have societal costs and society bans or significantly restricts them in order to avoid the spillover costs that have to be borne by the wider society.

    If someone were to ask me if I would approve marijuana OR alcohol as the legal drug available - I might choose marijuana (though I would need a bit more information to be sure).

    But make no mistake - every drug has a downside. I have never seen or heard of one that has none.

    In a few cases of folks close to me who have long-term marijuana habits I have seen borne out the old Public Service Announcement that marijuana "can make nothing happen to you too" - that their lives go nowhere.

    In all cases? No. But in the cases I have seen up close and personal? Yes.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 4:27 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" actually you are wrong. It is still illegal in the US to buy marijuana to smoke and get high on. The states that have legalized it are going against the US Federal laws that say that it is illegal. In fact, the DEA can and will arrest you at some point in time.

    See "DEA raids pot shop in complex owned by ex-Orange official" in the OC Register or "Feds raid medical marijuana facilities" at Fox News and "Feds raid Denver-area marijuana dispensaries, grow operations, 2 Homes" in the Denver Post.

    Apparently when it is a Federal crime, the Federal government will occasionally enforce the law and arrest you.

    If you can't posses it, buy it, or sell it, how can you get high on it without engaging in illegal activities. How can you get high if you never posses any?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 3:04 p.m.

    RedShirt
    USS Enterprise, UT
    To "LDS Liberal" as I have pointed out before, and will continue to point out. You can LEGALLY buy FDA approved medications containing the CBD oils. You can also LEGALLY buy hemp oil herbal supplements and lotions.

    [You can legally "buy" full-blown get you stoned marijuana right now,
    You can legally "smoke" full-blown get you stoned marijuana right now,
    What you can not do is possess it or sell it.]

    =============

    Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah

    The choice is ours. We cannot serve two masters. Our choice will determines our destiny.

    2:27 p.m. Feb. 25, 2014

    [Which goes right back to Why do YOU keep trying to decide for others?
    Why do you keep deciding for others?]
    It believe it is you who is wrong,
    I stand for Free Agency -- and it's consequences.]

  • Unreconstructed Reb Chantilly, VA
    Feb. 25, 2014 2:51 p.m.

    "Claim all you want for "freedom", but there is no freedom without accountability. If you want to use marihuana or want your children to have full access to marihuana, then please be good enough to tell us why a "soul" has so little value and why you are willing to throw away "souls" so that you can feed your appetites and passions."

    For the same reason I believe God sent us all here to be faced with choices between that which is good and that which is harmful, and to allow us to choose for ourselves, knowing that souls would be lost in the process. Sounds to me like you're condemning the whole Plan of Salvation.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 2:30 p.m.

    Grover,
    1. I don't have a problem with legalizing marijuana. I have a problem with the false pretense this letter is based on (there's no scientific evidence of adverse health affects from smoking marijuana).

    Note: I'm mostly libertarian, so I don't care if drugs like marijuana and alcohol are legal. As long as the individual (not society) bears the cost of the decision to abuse alcohol and other drugs. Same goes for nicotine.

    2. I agree philosophically that if we make marijuana illegal, we should also make alcohol illegal. But I'm enough or a realist to know that wouldn't work (we already tried it).

    3. The prohibition of alcohol failed almost immediately. Marijuana has been illegal for decades and that's approved by the vast majority of our society for years. So I have no problem if we keep it illegal (although I acknowledge that it's inconsistent).

    4. Though it's against my libertarian philosophy, I would have no major problem if Utah decided to be a beacon and ban alcohol. But I know that would never fly. We are already under pressure to LIBERALize our alcohol laws.

    So much for stereotypes...

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Feb. 25, 2014 2:27 p.m.

    There are a lot of reasons to join in with those who reject the sacred nature of the body, who reject the Word of Wisdom that would spare us all from becoming slaves to appetites and passions, but there is only one reason to reject the "wisdom" of the world. Either we stand with the Creator who gave us a mortal body, or we stand with him who will never have a body. The choice is ours. We cannot serve two masters. Our choice will determines our destiny.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 1:44 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" as I have pointed out before, and will continue to point out. You can LEGALLY buy FDA approved medications containing the CBD oils. You can also LEGALLY buy hemp oil herbal supplements and lotions.

    So, since you already buy the CBD oils as FDA approved medications or has unregulated herbal supplements, what is being denied to children?

    It seems that this is just a backdoor excuse for people to grown marijuana in their own yards and get high. What other reason is there to legalize something that is already legal?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 1:40 p.m.

    @lost in DC
    West Jordan, UT

    how do you use the WOW to justify marijuana use, when you know smoking tobacco is prohibited (because it's bad for the body) and medical research indicates smoking marijuana is worse for your lungs than smoking tobacco?

    We know it's an herb. But smoking it is NOT good for the body (no matter how hard you try to twist and spin the WOW to suit your liberal lifestyle).

    1:30 p.m. Feb. 25, 2014

    ========

    Who said anything about smoking?

    Utah state laws currently prohits the use of ANY part of the cannabis plant -- even the benine use of the derivative hemp oil [with NO THC in it] use for epilepsy.

    Even ROPE is not legal in Utah for crying out loud.

    Diet Coke has more psychotropic properties in it.

    I repeat -- the WoW states -- used in PRUDENCE.
    But the All-or-Nothing extremeists seem to running this cookoo nest.

    And have the audacity to me taking Nite-Quil with alcohol in it WITHOUT a Doctor's perscription is NOT breaking the Word of Wisdom,

    while taking hemp oil with a Doctor's perscription for epilepsy is!

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 1:35 p.m.

    MR, Bits, and Lost: Your righteous indignation is impressive when it comes to legalizing pot. Where is your indignation as regards alcohol?? Why is not Utah the only State in the nation to outlaw buying or serving booze? We certainly have a legislature that is intensely interested in the subject during every session. We have a veto proof majority of the legislators who are of a belief that liquor is evil. We have "States rights" or so we are told every time the federal government tries to make rules for us to follow. We could be the shining beacon to all other States! Let's hear you advocate banning alcohol. Why is pot different than alcohol? I'm listening.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 1:30 p.m.

    airnaut
    Everett, 00

    I get the point of inversion air affecting more people. But that wasn't the point I was getting at (and I think you know that).

    The point I was making is that the worst air you could breath during an inversion... is nothing compared to the air you get out of the end of a joint.

    And yet.... you claim there are no health risks with smoking marijuana, but you pout incessantly about the air you have to breath during an inversion. Do you see the irony?

    That's the point I was making.

    ===

    I appreciate the word of wisdom lecture. But as with the hypocrisy I pointed out above... how do you use the WOW to justify marijuana use, when you know smoking tobacco is prohibited (because it's bad for the body) and medical research indicates smoking marijuana is worse for your lungs than smoking tobacco?

    We know it's an herb. But smoking it is NOT good for the body (no matter how hard you try to twist and spin the WOW to suit your liberal lifestyle).

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 1:30 p.m.

    Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah

    If you want to use marihuana or want your children to have full access to marihuana, then please be good enough to tell us why a "soul" has so little value and why you are willing to throw away "souls" so that you can feed your appetites and passions.

    12:27 p.m. Feb. 25, 2014

    ==========

    Seriously,
    That speech sounds eerily familar --
    Sort of like the one Lucifer gave in the Pre-existance.

    [You know, taking away Free Agency so that not one soul would be lost, etc.]

    BTW -- Who said anything about giving access of marijuana to children?
    There you go again, making up stuff, spin, rhetoric, half truths and lies -- i.e, lies.

    The Prophet has spoken, I will obey.
    I just want to FORCE non-LDS members to be like us.

    That would be a Theocracy.

    ========

    lost in DC
    West Jordan, UT

    Driving "stoned" is already against the law.
    DUI -- Driving Under the Influence. Driving imparied. no dif.

    If you really want it stopped --
    Utah should enact a 3 strikes rule like others States already have.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 1:13 p.m.

    HVH
    please do not insult us by quoting something from a source you hold in disdain, or by trying to interpret LDS scripture that you clearly do not believe.

    Grover,
    so just because a stoner uses less MJ than a smoker uses tobacco makes the MJ less carcinogenic? Sorry, doesn't wash.

    airnaut,
    you have no grounds to speak concering the inversion, you live in Everett, WA. But by the logic you put forth, NO ONE who smokes weed can complain about the inversion, because they choose to damage their lungs with weed. You can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't impact those around you. OK, tell the victims of stoned driving that they were not impacted.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 12:40 p.m.

    In other words you want to get high on your marijuana.

    Lets look at the side effects of getting high on weed.

    According to a study reported by Breitbart, over the last 10 years there has been a 300%. See "Fatal Car Crashes by Marijuana Smokers up 300% over last decade".

    What is the societal cost of INCREASING the number of fatal car crashes?

  • FT salt lake city, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 12:39 p.m.

    @ Mike Richards
    You write, "Claim all you want for "freedom", but there is no freedom without accountability. If you want to use marihuana or want your children to have full access to marihuana, then please be good
    enough to tell us why a "soul" has so little value and why you are willing to throw away "souls" so that you can feed your appetites and passions."

    It's the same logic many Utahns use to justify all their boats, ATV's, 3 car garages when defending their reason to minimally support our public school system.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Feb. 25, 2014 12:27 p.m.

    How much poison is allowable? How much marihuana is acceptable before we, or our children or our grandchildren are affected?

    Claim all you want for "freedom", but there is no freedom without accountability. If you want to use marihuana or want your children to have full access to marihuana, then please be good
    enough to tell us why a "soul" has so little value and why you are willing to throw away "souls" so that you can feed your appetites and passions.

  • Locke Rexburg, ID
    Feb. 25, 2014 12:17 p.m.

    If marijuana and martinis are equally bad, perhaps logic dictates that BOTH should be banned.

    Just sayin'. The default position doesn't always have to lean toward legalizing. There are plenty of good reasons for prohibition, just as there are good reasons against it. But don't discount the arguments you don't agree with.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Feb. 25, 2014 12:11 p.m.

    2 bits
    Cottonwood Heights, UT

    So why do the people who think the inversion's going to kill their lungs have no problem with smoking marijuana?

    Makes no sense...

    11:12 a.m. Feb. 25, 2014

    ========

    Because when that 1 person decides to smoke marijuana, it only effects that 1 person.

    But,
    the pollution you put out during the inversion effects all 1.5 Million of us.

    There -- Does that make more sense for you?

    You should be free to do whatever you want,
    UNLESS
    the actions you chosse impact those around you.

    That's the rules of a free society.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 11:48 a.m.

    Lost: Let's see: twenty cigarettes in a pack and the average addicted smoker has a habit between a pack and two packs a day. How many pot smokers have more than a single joint or two a day? Now apply those numbers to the CDC findings.

    2 Bit: Smoking pot is a choice whereas breathing the air around us is not. See the difference? Guess you have no one in your family with a respiratory disease.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 11:12 a.m.

    Reading the headline I thought this would be another article about Global Warming.

    There is at least as much consensus that marijuana is bad for your health and for society, as there is that Global Warming is gonna gitcha.

    Smoking marijuana is at least as bad for your lungs as smoking tobacco, and worse than the air during an inversion (which seems to get most people REALLY riled up). So why do the people who think the inversion's going to kill their lungs have no problem with smoking marijuana?

    Makes no sense...

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Feb. 25, 2014 10:33 a.m.

    @Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah

    Over one-hundred years ago, the Lord gave us The Word of Wisdom which listed SOME of the things that were harmful to the body. It was "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints". Notice that it was given to spare the "weakest" people the despair of becoming addicted to tobacco, alcohol and coffee. Marijuana is a drug that weakens those who smoke it. If society cares about the "weakest", it will continue to ban marijuana.

    7:53 a.m. Feb. 25, 2014

    ==========

    I suppose you are in favor of Sharia Laws, the abolishment of our Constituional Democratic Republic, and are now prosoing a Theocracy based on God's word?

    Mike, Can't you see that this is the very kernel of why we do not agree.

    My testimony is just as strong as yours.
    My love of Country is jsut as strong as yours.

    I Love a Free Country and allow others choice using their Free Agency,
    while you evoke Religous dogma and apply a Mormon spin to all Laws of the Land -- which I oppose.

  • slcdenizen t-ville, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 10:06 a.m.

    Walking through the ailes of the grocery store, I declined far more products than I purchased. Why? Many reasons, including those used in the arguments against marijuana use and legalization. Do I crusade against those who purchase products I decline myself? No, because I have basic respect for those with whom I share proximity and am not pretentious enough to assume that I know what's best for lives that are not my own and of whose circumstances I have little knowledge. The drug war has objectively failed on all fronts - NOTHING resembling the goals of our drug war have come to fruition. The true conservative stance is to recognize failures, legalize, tax, and allocate the funds toward endeavors aimed at alleviating the underlying reasons behind destructive drug use. This would create an overall positive benefit for society. It would also elevate our moral standing abroad.

  • FT salt lake city, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 10:04 a.m.

    @ Mike Richards
    You write, "Over one-hundred years ago, the Lord gave us The Word of Wisdom which listed SOME of the things that were harmful to the body. It was "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints". Notice that it was given to spare the "weakest" people the despair of becoming addicted to tobacco, alcohol and coffee. Marijuana is a drug that weakens those who smoke it. If society cares about the "weakest", it will continue to ban marijuana."
    Our constitution seperates church from state. Your religon's word of wisdom is meaningless in this debate.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Feb. 25, 2014 9:59 a.m.

    Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah

    The Word of Wsdom also states:

    The use of ALL herbs..in prudence.

    IT also says Hot drinks are not to be used.

    And meat is only to be used sparingly, in times of cold or famine.

    Do you live ALL of the Word of Wisdom,
    or just the parts you would like to see banned?

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 9:54 a.m.

    I see the usual Conservatives for more and larger Government are ready to use government to further their religious tenets by law.

    How about some science as the article suggests, instead of moral and religious arguments against freedom...again.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 9:46 a.m.

    Words of wisdom doesn't mention Marijuana, but it does mention red meat, which is gladly ignored by your fellow members it's more about moderation in ALL things including the diet coke epidemic among members, but it's easier to spot a sinner smoking or drinking right?

    This plant has been used for over 5,000 years along side beer, the testing phase is complete already.

    Marijuana is proving to cure certain cancers so the CDC is using old data, check with a country that allows scientific testing still, like Israel.

    It was simple ignorance that this was made illegal to begin with and the same ignorance and religious force that is trying to keep it illegal.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 8:32 a.m.

    Your logic is based on martinis (meaning alcohol) having no harmful effects. I don't agree that martinis have no harmful affect. How many domestic violence cases each day are fueled by alcohol abuse? How many deaths each year on our highways from driving under the influence of alcohol? How many jobs and families lost because the employee is addicted to alcohol?

    Now... you use the false-assumption that alcohol is harmless to rationalize expanding the use of other drugs?

    Not a logical case to me (based on a false assumption).

    ===

    I realize both can be harmful. So expanding one just because the other is legal... is not compelling logic.

    By that logic.... we should make arsenic legal. It has some medicinal properties when used in minute doses.

    No... just because alcohol is legal (something I realize does much harm)... doesn't rationalize making marijuana legal (which will also do much harm).

    Making something we know is harmful legal, just because we know something else that is also harmful is legal... is not a strong argument for legalizing marijuana.

    There is another argument that makes more sense. I'll wait to see if anybody brings it up.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 8:24 a.m.

    "The criminalization of Americans who prefer marijuana to martinis has no basis in science."

    I guess the science from the CDC showing MJ is three times as carcinogenic as tobacco does not exist??

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Feb. 25, 2014 7:53 a.m.

    When a society starts to debate whether a small amount of "dope" is harmless, that society has lost its way. Marijuana is a drug. Except for its limited use as a medicine, it is a drug that deadens those who take it. It is known as "dope" for a reason.

    Over one-hundred years ago, the Lord gave us The Word of Wisdom which listed SOME of the things that were harmful to the body. It was "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints". Notice that it was given to spare the "weakest" people the despair of becoming addicted to tobacco, alcohol and coffee. Marijuana is a drug that weakens those who smoke it. If society cares about the "weakest", it will continue to ban marijuana.

  • Curmudgeon Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 6:33 a.m.

    Increase tax revenue, create jobs, reduce law enforcement and incarceration expenses. Let people who are foolish enough to do it have their freedom, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

    Aren't these the same arguments used to promote legalized gambling?

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Feb. 25, 2014 5:12 a.m.

    I think most would agree that no marijuana use is better than marijuana use.

    And most who use logic instead of emotion would conclude that the punishments for the end user in the war on drugs has gone over the top. Our prisons are full of people for drug use and possession crimes.

    At a minimum, we should be looking at decriminalization of many drug offenses concerning marijuana.

  • River Dog Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 25, 2014 4:41 a.m.

    Robert: Excellent letter. You're right on. Too bad those iin power are unable to see the truth in this.