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Letter: Compassion at home

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  • RichardB Murray, UT
    Feb. 16, 2014 12:24 a.m.

    Utefan60, the money paid into social security fraudulently, does not go to the Social security trust fund. Also people who have had their number stolen, do not get any benefit from the money paid. So there is no real benefit.

    By law, the Social Security administration is suppose to warn us when someone is using our number. Like many other laws, it has not been enforced, and people are not being notified.

  • Utefan60 Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 15, 2014 9:03 p.m.

    A good benefit for older Americans is that Billions is paid into Social Security through false numbers set up for illegals to work. That money is never recovered by that individual paying with that illegal information. According to statistics up to 11 billion per year is paid into Social Security that will never be recovered by those people with illegal documentation. Just a silver lining in an otherwise difficult deal.

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    Feb. 15, 2014 6:19 a.m.

    2 bit, why do you think that Federal taxes are the only taxes we pay? Do you really think that way? Is this why you people are attempting to make 50 different nation states rather than one nation? You are missing much my friend.

  • anti-liar Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 15, 2014 4:12 a.m.

    Ever predictably, the unscrupulous employers of illegal aliens are chiming in.

    Despite their false insinuations, Americans are the hardest working, the most creative and the most productive in the world. But the greedy businessman's lie -- that hard work is its own reward, that a fair wage doesn't matter -- only goes so far.

    Pay an American a fair and justly-earned wage. He will do the job.

    @Ajax

    "This job thing is a ruse and the illegality issue largely an excuse. Both are cover for deeper motives. I wonder what those might be."

    Yeah, Ajax, I wonder what those might be.

    Veiled accusations of Racism are among the standard lies used by employers of illegal aliens.

    I wonder what their motives are?

    Answer: Enhanced profit, through employment of cheap, illegal-alien labor and without regard for the well-being of society around them.

  • Alfred Phoenix, AZ
    Feb. 14, 2014 10:41 p.m.

    @SLars:
    "We need business leaders that don't need to break our laws to succeed."

    What we need is a president who doesn't need to break our laws (immigration) to succeed. He sets the example.

    "And remember it was the American worker that built this country."

    Yes, together with entrepreneurship and capital formation.

  • SLars Provo, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 8:31 p.m.

    Let's keep in mind that only 3% of those here illegally work in agriculture. The majoriy of workers here illegally don't want to work in agriculture. The problem is not with American workers.

    If businss and the pro-illegal groups could not talk about the children or agriculture, they would never be able to convince us to accept illegal immigration and amnesty.

    We need business leaders that don't need to break our laws to succed. And remember it was the American worker that built this country.

    If our leaders had not used taxpayer money to fund unemployment this conversation would be much different, and American workers would have been very vocal over lack of enforcement. They bought our silence.

  • wrz Phoenix, AZ
    Feb. 14, 2014 7:12 p.m.

    @Bubble:

    "'Unemployment is over 10 percent' have you ever heard the saying that if you need to lie to make your point maybe you don't have one to make?"

    True. The real unemployment rate, if you consider those who've stopped looking for work because there's none to be found, is around 17 percent.

    @Irony Guy:
    "When Alabama drove out the migrant workers a few years ago, the crops rotted in the fields because 'real Americans' wouldn't take the harvesting jobs."

    That's because 'real Americans' could collect unemployment... which is probably twice what could be made working.

    @Hutterite:
    "I'd bet you couldn't get a 'real american' to pick lettuce at twice the wage of those who do."

    That's because the 'real American' is home drawing unemployment... did I say.

  • SLars Provo, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 4:34 p.m.

    The blue-ribbon, national, non-partisan Commission on Immigration Reform, called in 1994 for "enhanced enforcement efforts targeted at farm labor and other contractors who hire unauthorized workers on behalf of agricultural growers and other businesses." According to the executive director of the California Institute for Rural Studies "In terms of constant dollars, there's been a significant decline in wages, we think by over 25 percent, over the last 20 years."(New York Times, March 31, 1997

    We allowed business interests to chase Americans from the farms, so they could use cheaper labor, now they can't afford to go back. The same thing is happening to construction, hospitality and the service industry. Jobs that can't be deported, and needed by the American worker.

    I can't speak for Alabama, but my cousin (retired) took his children to work in the fields in Georgia. They were fired after a few hours work and told they were over qualified.

  • SLars Provo, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 4:25 p.m.

    From the Salt Lake City Deseret News, August 4, 1998
    "The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 was opposed by agricultural interests
    because the employer sanctions against hiring illegal aliens adopted in that law
    were perceived as likely to end the supply of illegal aliens and financially
    ruin the producers. To ease their fears, a provision was adopted in the law that
    allowed for a supply of "replenishment agricultural workers" to be
    admitted if a labor shortage were found to exist. To determine whether a
    shortage was arising, the Department of Labor set up a National Agricultural
    Worker Survey, and a national bipartisan Commission on Agricultural
    Workers was created to study the data and recommend to Congress whether to
    open the door for the program.

    The study was completed and reported to Congress on February 17, 1993 that there was an oversupply of farm labor. The new employers sanction measures had failed to deter the influx of illegal aliens and the surplus of labor was condemning agricultural workers to continue to toil in deteriorating wage and worksite environmental conditions.
    All governmental and non- partisan reports since that time have echoed the same
    conclusion."

    Surplus labor depresses wages and forces citizens out of jobs.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Feb. 14, 2014 3:54 p.m.

    "Compare the Obama years with the rest of the graph... there's no denying it's not good.", and you can sit around and blame Obama, or you can join reality and acknowledge that we had the second worst economic era in modern history that not only destroyed good jobs, but also cleaned out all the non productive jobs that were hanging around from the bubble and never will come back.

    Then you can join the conversation about what do we do now.

    Actually one of the most cogent discussions I've heard about the topic was an interview on NPR with Marco Rubio. He had the sense to stop simply ranting about Obama and actually had a very good meta perspective on how to re-build and fill the job holes left by the recession with productive value based jobs in the future.

    I have no idea if I'd agree with his tactics but his strategy was spot on. Yea I know pick your jaw up off the floor. Democrats and liberals will actually listen when Republicans have something sane to say.

    BTW, that's exactly why Democrats didn't listen in the health care debate.

  • RRB SLC, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 3:00 p.m.

    Bubbles; U-6 unemployment rate is currently 13%.
    June 3 2013; The Black American Leadership Conference this morning issued an open letter calling on members of Congress to oppose the current immigration proposal, arguing increased competition for low-skill jobs would hurt Americans, particularly black Americans, struggling to find work.

    In 1979 testimony to Congress, Chavez complained, "... when the farm workers strike and their strike is successful, the employers go to Mexico and have unlimited, unrestricted use of illegal alien strikebreakers to break the strike.

    There is no question that illegal labor hurts America's poor by driving down wages, and the middle class by costing us more in taxes. It's time we stop business and their un-American ways.

  • Badgerbadger Murray, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 2:45 p.m.

    Basic economics lesson. Supply and demand. The greater the supply, the lower the demand. They are inverse. So when we add lots of labor, cheap illegal labor, the demand drops and the price of labor drops with it.

    If the economic outlook was brighter, with less oppressive government weighing everything down, the unemployment rate would drop and the wages would go up. This is the opposite of having the government tax and regulate to death most companies, while it gives money to its chosen industries (Solyndra and such). If we could achieve a need for labor, we could afford to bring in more legal immigrants to fill that need. We would be more secure, because we would know who they are, or more importantly who they are not (terrorists).

    Rewarding the free-flow of illegals suppresses the economy/jobs market, and puts the whole country at security risk. I will save my compassion for the safety of our children and country as a whole.

    When we have our house in order, we have been very generous to other countries. We are losing that ability to debt, joblessness, and internal illegal activity (much of it committed by our government).

  • intervention slc, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 2:35 p.m.

    2bits

    Interesting i will have to look into that.

  • Brer Rabbit Spanish Fork, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 2:03 p.m.

    Wages are a product of supply and demand. Presently there is a labor surplus causing stagnant wages. Millions of American jobs have been lost to automation, mechanization and manufacturing going to cheap labor countries. Millions of American jobs are also being lost to legal and illegal immigrant labor. There is nothing that can be done about jobs lost to automation, mechanization or off-shoring of jobs, but there is no reason to import more legal and illegal labor to compete with Americans and suppress wages.

    Never trust a politician or newspaper that claims to support reducing unemployment and ending wage stagnation that also supports continuing the flood of foreign unskilled as well as skilled labor. They are really on the side of the wealthy elite, not the side of the American wage earner. Those that say immigrants are needed to do the dirty work are either very arrogant or the employers that claim the need for cheap labor.

    If the labor surplus were reduced, wages would increase, even at these so called dirty jobs that are supposedly beneath American workers. When wages are high enough workers will take the jobs including milking cows, roofing, and making hotel beds.

  • CB Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 1:51 p.m.

    Send the illegals home, let them come back with proper papers and intent to be obedient to
    the laws of the land. They need to learn English and owe their allegiance to this country
    if they want the benefits of this country.
    Having lived in California near the border, I know of the lawlessness of those who come here
    illegally to gain the ability to work, take advantage of our systems of food stamps, medical care, take money under the table (meaning they are not paying taxes) and any other source they need to be able to benefit on American largesse.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 1:32 p.m.

    intervention,
    RE: "the number the government publishes is he same official unemployment number we have used since they stared recording unemployment"...

    Truth is... the calculation has changed 3 times in the last 30 years.

    In 1994, the Bureau of Labor Statistics redefined "the workforce" to include only that small percentage of the discouraged who had been seeking work for less than a year.

    USA Today (12/28/10)
    "Citing what it calls "an unprecedented rise" in long-term unemployment, the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), beginning Saturday, will raise from two years to five years the upper limit on how long someone can be listed as having been jobless".

    ===

    When unemployment is measured according to the formula that was used when President Bill Clinton took office, it is actually around 20%.

    ===

    formula aside.

    Google "Unemployment Rate - Bureau of Labor Statistics Data"...

    The graph is very revealing. Compare the Obama years with the rest of the graph... there's no denying it's not good.

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 1:19 p.m.

    intervention:

    You mean that number that was deliberately manipulated to show a dramatic drop in unemployment a month before the last election to help Obama win back the presidency?

    Just like the latest Obamacare enrollee numbers coming out of this administration, we can't trust any number reported by Washington these days.

  • intervention slc, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 12:28 p.m.

    @joe
    the number "the government publishes" is he same official unemployment number we have used since they stared recording unemployment, to claim other numbers is at best suspect.

  • wrz Phoenix, AZ
    Feb. 14, 2014 12:22 p.m.

    "Why not some compassion for American workers who've been displaced by illegal labor..."

    There is compassion for the American worker put out of work by an illegal worker... It's call 'unemployment benefits.' The Unemployed American can get up to 115 months (over two years) of benefits while they sit home watching the illegal do the work.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 12:04 p.m.

    ugottabkidn
    Re: "Remember that employed immigrants, legal or illegal, pay taxes, social security"...

    How can an ILLEGAL immigrant pay taxes (you need a SS# to pay taxes). How can they pay Social Security taxes (you need a SS# to pay social security taxes). You need a SS# to get insurance. You need a SS# to register for school....

    How do you do all these things without a SS#??

    You have to adopt one (from the black market). And that is illegal to the max. It's not a victimless crime (like coming here illegally). That... is a REAL crime (punishable by time in prison IF you're a US Citizen).

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 11:27 a.m.

    The problem with immigration reform is that few have any solution, left or right. Should we start with lawbreakers, such as employers who skirt the law for cheap labor? Who does it benefit to ignore the immigration laws for the past 35 plus years? How will name calling Chris B enforce the law on 11 million plus immigrants and will he enforce it on all nationalities or just one particular segment? Will he pass laws to profile legal citizens just because they resemble the undocumented? Remember that employed immigrants, legal or illegal, pay taxes, social security, and do contribute so think of this when you come up with your great solutions. If wages for the middle class keep getting suppressed we'll all be immigrating to Canada, Australia, or Europe to send funds back to our families.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 11:10 a.m.

    @hutterite,

    I'll glady watch my lettuce(and fast food and hotel) prices increase while we watch education, healthcare, and a variety of other costs decrease. Illegal immigrants should go back to their country and show they are law abiding people.

    Where are your similar feelings when jobs are sent because others are willing to do the work for a quarter of the price and "real americans" wont do it for twice the wages of those in other countries? Flip, flop, flip, flop

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 11:05 a.m.

    Bubble: "...have you ever heard the saying that if you need to lie to make your point maybe you don't have one to make?"

    I don't believe that saying unemployment is over 10% is a lie. I guess it depends on your definition of "unemployed".

    If you define it as the number of people who would start working tomorrow if a job became available that matched their skills, then it is definitely over 10%.

    If you define it as that number published each month by the government that doesn't include those who no longer qualify for unemployment insurance or those who have given up hope, then you can say it is under 10%.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 11:04 a.m.

    I'm not anti-immigrant, but I have to state the obvious.

    Currently teenagers are the ones affected (because they traditionally did the "jobs Americans won't do"). Jobs now reserved for immigrants. So teenagers are having a hard time finding a job at a decent wage (because other people will do the same jobs for less).

    People who came to America illegally to do the jobs Americans won't do rather than starve... Naturally will stay in the shadows and do those jobs. They were desperate, and willing to take the jobs Americans won't do. But their children (who are educated in American Schools, grew up watching MTV, shopping the malls, and living the American lifestyle)... will they be willing to do the jobs Americans won't do? I don't think so.

    They will be competing for the jobs Americans WANT to do.

    The children will be our engineers, layers, managers, politicians, etc. That's OK. They are citizens. But that generation will drive down the wage of SKILLED workers (not McDonalds workers). And that generation's population will be at least double todays (if each couple has 2 children).

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 10:09 a.m.

    I'd bet you couldn't get a 'real american' to pick lettuce at twice the wage of those who do.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Feb. 14, 2014 9:58 a.m.

    When Alabama drove out the migrant workers a few years ago, the crops rotted in the fields because "real Americans" wouldn't take the harvesting jobs. The premise of this letter is a fantasy.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 9:39 a.m.

    The forces of anarchy have brought about a situation in which there is no enforcement of a uniform code of legal residency. We are surrounded by tens of millions of those who have illegally entered, and do continue to work, drive, trade and receive benefits, at the expense of legal residents, and Congress seems to want "post ipso facto" laws legitimizing existing illegality. Isn't that what it amounts to?

    What is the source of this evil? The love of money is, we read, the root of ALL evil, including the evil of rampant lawlessness. Come on Congress! We need a majority of you do something useful and honest in your lives.

  • intervention slc, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 9:19 a.m.

    @ajax

    You are right and the problem is they are far more transparent then they woudl like to think. At the same time they want a severe crackdown on illegal immigration they are also fighting to do away with welfare and the minimum wage. Its not to hard to see through the claims of compassion.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Feb. 14, 2014 8:41 a.m.

    I generally eschew simple answers but this is one case where the harder you look the more simple the answer is.

    It seems there are only two answers. First; Americans are too lazy to do manual labor and therefore we need to import folks who will, and lucky us they will do the work for cheap.

    Second the wages are so cheap that you can't live on them therefore Americans won't take back breaking work for wages that don't provide a life.

    Regardless of how you combine the problems either Americans are lazy or wages are too low to attract Americans.

    You choose conservatives.

    Personally I fall on the side of if wages were livable you would see a lot more American citizens framing houses.

  • Ajax Mapleton, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 8:41 a.m.

    This job thing is a ruse and the illegality issue largely an excuse. Both are cover for deeper motives. I wonder what those might be.

  • Badgerbadger Murray, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 8:38 a.m.

    Liberal leaders don't acknowledge those who don't have jobs due to illegal aliens. The income inequality, they persist in talking about and claim they want to fix, is made worse by illegal labor taking jobs at substandard wages undercutting citizens ability to work.

    I suspect the liberal masses are really ignorant of the damage their policies heap on citizens (themselves and their children), and the leaders don't care because they know it is the big businesses that fund their campaigns.

    The average citizen is not a person to democrat leaders, they are just dehumanized votes, and they feel the same way about illegals.

    The deomcrats' 'compassion' is just a ruse, totally fake, to get reelected.

  • Bubble SLC, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 8:22 a.m.

    "Unemployment is over 10 perecent" have you ever heard the saying that if you need to lie to make your point maybe you don't have one to make?

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 7:18 a.m.

    Its hypocritical that liberals embrace and support illegal immigrants being here and being able to take law abiding Americans' jobs but then get upset if a company sends jobs overseas. In either case, the result is jobs moving from Americans to others. There is no difference. Except for the fact one is illegal and one is not

    Enforce the laws and don't reward illegal aliens for their illegal decisions

  • anti-liar Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 14, 2014 2:41 a.m.

    It is disgusting the way the true and holy principle of Compassion is being hijacked, perverted and used as a masquerade for pure, unadulterated GREED.

    If it really were about compassion, businessmen wouldn't be doing all in their power to circumvent paying their fellow American the wage he justly has earned and deserves.

    Instead they would have a little compassion for the American citizen right under their noses who do suffer greatly in a wide variety of ways as a result of illegal immigration and illegal employment of illegal aliens.

    Nor is there true compassion in rewarding dishonesty and illegality.

  • Stalwart Sentinel San Jose, CA
    Feb. 14, 2014 1:13 a.m.

    Setting aside this article's slew of horrendous factual inaccuracies, the letter writer seems to unintentionally make a case for complete amnesty of undocumented workers.

    Were undocumented immigrants given a pathway to citizenship they would no longer be subject to poor treatment and low wages at the hands of their employers. Indeed, the companies that currently hire them would be forced to actually pay their workers in accordance with our laws, etc... - no more "under-the-table" employees. Then, perhaps the letter writer's fictitious "coming-of-age" job market for teens would come back to life b/c those teenagers would be able to compete w/ immigrants since wages would be comparable.