2 bits brings up the topic of increased tax revenue from the land if it is
commercialized. It is a good point. The increased tax revenue would help pay for
a new prison. I do not think it should go overlooked, however, that the reason
for tax money in the first place is so we can provide things like roads and
schools and prisons and if you have to sacrifice the quality of the prison in
order get the additional tax money, you are being counter productive. I believe
the best site for the prison is where it is at. If you give that up, you have
compromised the quality of service.
Prison systems are among the most important functions modern governments provide
— right there somewhere between schools and soccer stadiums.This the USA, we don't have any soccer stadiums.This subject
pops up all the time in Utah. Why does it come up more than what people want the
government to do?
What should we learn from the past Jay? That inmates may break windows when
they move? That they may not like the move?I think what we should
LEARN from history is... wherever you move it... is eventually going to be
crowded out by the growing population and become obsolete. So get used to that
idea right now (so we don't have all the hand ringing when it happens again
in 60 years). Or move it to such remote real-estate that it takes longer to get
crowded out!===Sugar house turned out to be a bad place
for a prison (although when Brigham Young came here... it probably seemed like a
perfectly remote place to people living in downtown SLC).Likewise
the point of the mountain probably seemed like a perfect place in the 1950s.
Who knew I-15 would come along and all the population growth in that part of the
valley (it was beyond the edge of the earth as far as 1950's SLC residents
were concerned).THAT is what we should learn.Wherever we
put it (no matter how remote)... will eventually become prime realestate and
crowd it out.
RE: "There is plenty of room to replace existing buildings on site so it is
not necessary to move the prison to have updated facilities".Question:What makes you an expert on this? How do YOU know there is
plenty of room (just from looking at it as you fly by on I-15)?The
people recommending the move know a thing or two about the amount of space they
need. This didn't originate from the legislature. It originated from the
Corrections Department, which knows how much space they need.Just
because there is some space left doesn't mean we can put new buildings on
it and still have a good secure prison. Some of that space is needed for
inmates to go outside. Some of that space is needed as a buffer so the guards
can insure security of the inmates. Some of that space is needed as a buffer
between the prison and their neighbors.They know what they are
doing. Are YOU an expert in corrections facilities?===This isn't about "updated facilities". Corrections isn't
asking for new drapes, nicer rooms. They are asking to be able to accommodate
the increased inmate population.
Jay,I think the reason we're not discussing making it into a regional
park... is "cost".Cost to the Utah Tax Payers (that's
you and me).IF we make it a regional park, there is no revenue to
the State (from selling the land to the highest bidder) to offset the cost of
buying the new land.So the cost of buying the new land must be
funded 100% by you and me (instead of the developer who buys the land from the
State).Does that make sense?===If we
DON'T sell the land, and just move... Taxpayers must pay the full price
(and taxes may need to go up... or money that COULD go to education, reallocated
to pay for the new land).Do you want that?===It's like when YOU move.... don't you sell your old house... so you
can afford to buy the new house?Or do you just move, and donate the
old house to be turned into a park. Then have to come up with 100% of the cost
of the new house instead of using the equity you had in the old house to buy the
high school fanHuntington, UTThe current facility is over sixty
years old and as we all know, being sixty is not the same as being twenty or
even forty. If you are going to rebuild the facility anyway, then move it. New
construction is always cheaper then mass remodeling and new is new.3:52 a.m. Feb. 12, 2014[Pretending for a minute you get your way,
and knowing how much you hate paying taxes, How do you propose
paying for it?]=====Amazing, this is one for the
record book. Jay and I finally agree on something.
"But do lawmakers get it? Do they understand that the idea developers are
driving this discussion, whether true or not, is a huge perception
problem?"Are these rhetorical questions? Take a look at the
legislators pushing the hardest and then follow the money...
You suggest that, "Prison systems are among the most important functions
modern governments provide." You say, "A society that values the notion
of redemption and second chances ought to believe people can change."
Wonderful thoughts. Would be great if we reformed our prisons to place more
emphasis on rehabilitation.
Jay! Mr. Evenson! Wonderful perspective on prisons. I wrote letters to the
editor on this (unpublished) and have very similar feelings and hopes. Moving
the prison should be decided on what is best for the prison -- just that, and
nothing else. Don't forgo a good prison site just because someone stands to
make a buck if the land is sold and commercialized. If the idea is to have the
best prison you can, let the decision be based on that. Point of the Mountain is
close to the courts, close to medical resources, and close to attorneys who
visit. From that vantage point, it is at the prime location, already. But, more
importantly, volunteers could be vital if we ever get serious about prison
reform. Many are going to be lost if we move to Delta or Tooele. If we want
rehabilitation, then it is wise to provide role models. In addition to being
role models, volunteers offer love, encouragement and direction -- all of which
are vital to rehabilitation.If the point is to have the best prison, keep
the prison at the Point.
There is plenty of room to replace existing buildings on site so it is not
necessary to move the prison to have updated facilities.The location
is practical for volunteers, attorneys, families and is close to medical
facilities and courts. There is no good reason to move the prison.The only need is greed.
I agree. Trails could connect the park with Thanksgiving point, and from there,
the murdock canal trail and Jordan river parkway.
I've learned from the past too.whether it be student vouchers,
UDOT bidders, or John Swallow, our repub state legislature can't stop
giving away our money to their friends! I say not only no to the prison move but
heck no! Let's propose a park in the place of that prison and
suddenly all the interest from our real estate controlled legislature would
dwindle and perish.
re: high school fan,The prison was opened sixty years ago, but most
of the buildings are not that old. There has been remodeling and new
construction all along the way.
Could drug offenders be "fixed" to reject certain drugs and receive pain
instead of pleasure? Could sex offenders be deprived of sexuality
temporarily or permanently? Could robbers and burglars be fitted
with tracking devices to record their every location? Could texting
in moving vehicles by prevented by the telephone companies. Could
criminal businessmen be barred from owning or operating a business.
Doing the same thing over again will not give different results. Rebuilding the
prison won't change the fact that the current methods of treating
wrongdoings doesn't work. Some random thoughts:When a child misbehaves, the parent often gives appropriate punishment, but
after the punishment, the child is accepted back into the family in full
standing with just as much love as before. The child probably will not have any
lingering hate for the parent and probably will do better. In the
natural world, if you violate the rules, the punishment is usually instantaneous
and directly proportional to the offense. Like when you put your finger on a
hot stove, you get the pain right away. While the pain may linger for a while,
the lesson learned is the absolute knowledge that repeating the offense will
consistently produce the pain of punishment.Punishment should be
limited to the person who does the offense. If a person is sent to prison, the
spouse, children and other loved ones are punished as well. Could
we look at different ways to punish that would be more effective?
Excellent points all around Jay. Thanks!I hope the Governor and
legislators read and carefully consider your comments.
Evenson hit it right on the head. This "discussion is being driven by
developers and the City of Draper seeking to enrich themselves at the expense of
the Utah tax payer. The prison shouldn't be moved, and if it is, then I
agree a very large regional park would be an appropriate use of the land. My
Dad used to go swimming in the small ponds on site when he was a teenager. A
little public access open land in the south end of the valley would be cool.Propose that officially and all the hurry to move the prison would die.
The current facility is over sixty years old and as we all know, being sixty is
not the same as being twenty or even forty. If you are going to rebuild the
facility anyway, then move it. New construction is always cheaper then mass
remodeling and new is new.