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Republicans double down on Obamacare

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  • freedomingood provo, Utah
    Feb. 8, 2014 8:46 p.m.

    It's clear from most of these right wing posts you have no idea that "Obamacare" is private insurance by the corporation provider of YOUR own choosing. The ignorance is sad.

  • freedomingood provo, Utah
    Feb. 8, 2014 8:42 p.m.

    I know one guy that quit his corporate job to be self employed and another that retired 5 years early because they can now get insurance that is not tied to their corporate job. I think that is a good thing.

    Of course corporate masters that like their employees a little more slavish and utterly dependent probably don't like the idea.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Feb. 7, 2014 6:52 p.m.

    Just for reference here's the ladder of reference;

    The Ladder of Inference describes the thinking process that we go through, usually without realizing it, to get from a fact to a decision or action. The thinking stages can be seen as rungs on a ladder and are shown in Figure 1. Starting at the bottom of the ladder, we have reality and facts. From there, we: Experience these selectively based on our beliefs and prior experience. Interpret what they mean. Apply our existing assumptions, sometimes without considering them. Draw conclusions based on the interpreted facts and our assumptions. Develop beliefs based on these conclusions. Take actions that seem "right" because they are based on what we believe. This can create a vicious circle. Our beliefs have a big effect on how we select from reality, and can lead us to ignore the true facts altogether. Soon we are literally jumping to conclusions

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Feb. 7, 2014 6:37 p.m.

    SCfan;"There is no getting around that no matter how you spin it, our current economy is not what it was during Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, ect. The average amount of money that the average American family is making in an average year is down by several thousand dollars."

    No kidding! This recession cleaned out our economy. I strongly disagree however with why the rich are holding onto their money. In fact they are not holding onto their money, thus the massive gains in the stock market.

    What is happening is the return on financial manipulations is much higher than the return on real value investment. Financial manipulation doesn't require any labor at all. It's labor free and currently very lucrative.

    Please explain to me why anyone in the 1% would take their money out of the current situation where they are making insane profits through financial manipulations and put it in value production with all of it's risks and costs, regardless of who the President is.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Feb. 7, 2014 2:06 p.m.

    @pragmatistferlife – “Everyone knows what the report actually said. It said the ACA will increase the number of jobs and increase economic growth.”

    Exactly!

    And this highlights nicely the problem many have with today’s Republican Party – they lack the courage to own their ideas or make arguments based on the facts.

    For years conservatives have been rightly saying (back when they were sane) that employer based healthcare was a noose around the labor market. That if people didn’t have to stay in jobs for health insurance, they would chose different jobs (they were better suited for), or be free to take the risk of opening a business of their own, or leave the labor market altogether (which, all other things being equal, will raise aggregate wages).

    Now when a non-partisan report comes out saying this is/will occur under the ACA, they twist that into “it’s a job killer.”

    Just one more case of Republicans attacking their most hated president in history for things they thought up but failed to do when they were in control – too busy with other things I guess… wars, anti-abortion laws, etc…

  • Badgerbadger Murray, UT
    Feb. 7, 2014 1:44 p.m.

    Soon we will not have a choice. At the rate things are going, none of us will be able to work. It will be too costly to employ us, and we will get little or nothing for the work we do because all the earnings will be taxed into subsidies for those who aren't working.

    I just wonder who will pay for all the subsidies when there are no workers left and we have all been forced into being recipients of subsidies?

    But other than that, Obamacare is, uh,...

    Still awful.

    I want my plan and my doctor back, please.

  • 2 bit Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 7, 2014 11:17 a.m.

    Mavrick,

    Re: "The decades of class warfare waged against the poor and middle classes started under Reagan"...

    Define "Class warfare"?

    It has a definition. Goggle "Class warfare". I don't think it means what you think it means.

    According to the REAL definition of "Class Warfare"... Reaganomics doesn't fit.

    ====

    You vilify Ronald Reagan, and blame him for today. Well here's a common sense test you can take to see if he really wanted to destroy the middle-class.

    1. How were you doing under Jimmy Carter...
    2. Then how were you doing under Ronald Reagan....
    It was a night-day difference for me, and I'm middle-class.

    When Jimmie Carter was President... Interest rates on home loans were 16% (that's when I bought my home). The economy was in "real trouble" (by all accounts).

    It's called the "Stagflation" era. Goggle "A brief history of U.S. unemployment", reference the "Stagflation" graph. Unemployment skyrocketed to 10%! Is that GOOD for the poor/middle-class??

    Then look at what happened as soon as Reagan took over.

    Then tell us he engaged in class-warfare.

  • SCfan clearfield, UT
    Feb. 7, 2014 9:51 a.m.

    Pragmatistferlife

    There is no getting around that no matter how you spin it, our current economy is not what it was during Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, ect. The average amount of money that the average American family is making in an average year is down by several thousand dollars. And if the 1%ers are not spending money and creating jobs, has it ever occured to you why they are holding back from investment and holding onto money? The word Democrat, and the name Obama come to mind as good reasons. Even the liberal rich 1%ers, of which there are a lot, are doing it. When we get the right President, (not Hillary) then the 1% will feel comfortable to open up and invest because government will be seen as their ally not their enemy.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Feb. 7, 2014 8:02 a.m.

    Badger.."Obama declared the recession over and the country to be in recovery in June of 2009, yet we have more people out of the workforce than we had at the height of the recession. "

    That's a very simplistic and pejorative statement to a complicated problem. In fact workforce participation started to decline in 2000 as the baby boomers started to retire. Then the trend was exacerbated with the recession.

    Of course whether we're in a recession or not has nothing to do with workforce participation. It only has to do with GDP growth, and the fact is we have had nearly 4 years of positive growth.

    What should worry you is the fact that the stock market has boomed (rate of return on capital) and the rate of economic growth has limped along, albeit positive. There in lies your answer as to why we continue to have a decline in the labor market.

    There are a thousand individual reasons why some aren't participating, early retirement, staying in school, giving up, but the fact is the jobs aren't there for them because the 1% can make more with financial manipulations than they can creating value and jobs.

  • m.g. scott clearfield, UT
    Feb. 7, 2014 7:55 a.m.

    If you like your Obama care, you can keep it. Otherwise the rest of us should be exempt from using it or paying for it. Simple as that!!!

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Feb. 7, 2014 6:30 a.m.

    How many people have been imprisoned into dead-end jobs or can't move because of "pre-exisiting conditions"?

    Ya - the ACA is GOOD for Americans and for better jobs.

    And keep it up Republicans,
    this is all your battle to keep loosing.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Feb. 7, 2014 5:57 a.m.

    "Why haven't the jobs come back? Why haven't the wages come back?"

    Because trickle down economic policies don't work.

    We are still very much using them.

    The poor and middle class don't have enough wealth to consume enough goods to force big business to hire more.

    The decades of class warfare waged against the poor and middle classes started under Reagan and have taken a toll. The wealth inequality gap where such a small percentage owns so much of the nation's wealth has made it darn near impossible for us to dig ourselves out of this stagnant economy.

    Without government intervention and stimulus spending, there is no way that the poor and middle classes will ever be able to spark businesses into jumpstarting this economy.

  • E Sam Provo, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 11:45 p.m.

    This isn't a situation where two sides disagree on what the report says. It's a situation where one side is describing it accurately, and the other side is deliberately misrepresenting it, for partisan purposes.

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 10:31 p.m.

    "Now we hear, from the CBO no less, that the ACA will kill jobs"
    When the report was released, it was misinterpreted by the media. The next day, Congressional Budget Office director Douglas Elmendorf clarified that the law would reduce unemployment, not "kill jobs".

    "This article makes it sound like the republicans are blowing the problems out of proportion"
    Well, sure! When Republicans make a claim about a report that is completely not true, one could say that it is "blowing it out of proportion".

  • Badgerbadger Murray, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 8:52 p.m.

    Why haven't the jobs come back? Why haven't the wages come back? Obama declared the recession over and the country to be in recovery in June of 2009, yet we have more people out of the workforce than we had at the height of the recession.

    Now we hear, from the CBO no less, that the ACA will kill jobs, and destroy workers' incentive to work. Before the CBO said the ACA would create jobs and save everyone money. Now they are finally telling the truth instead of saying what Obama tells them to say.

    The liberal dreamland is unraveling into a fiscal nightmare, and a human nightmare.

    Republicans would be foolish to smile and nod like everything is great (like the democrats are doing). Of course republicans should point out the fallacies of this massive mess. We need some hope and change!

    This article makes it sound like the republicans are blowing the problems out of proportion, but I think the problems are still massively understated.

    If you want to see real doubling down, review history when the democrats danced on the grave of every dead soldier under the Bush administration during the Iraq War.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 8:22 p.m.

    @ VST, if you have been paying attention, many took part time jobs just to get health insurance. Now they can get it on their own terms. Working is now a choice. Oh wait, Republicans are not pro-choice. They really want the government to make decisions for people.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Feb. 6, 2014 6:48 p.m.

    Just keep it up Repubs..of course I know you will. Everyone knows what the report actually said. It said the ACA will increase the number of jobs and increase economic growth. It also said there are millions of Americans who work a specific job for health care, those are the ones who will now have a choice. It doesn't mean those people will quit working all together and be fee loaders, It means they have the freedom to do work they want without worrying about health care. You all are just making up the rest, as usual.

    Once again you are building a bubble around yourself that blocks out and distorts reality. This time it's about the ACA and it's effects. Your distortions don't change reality they just change your perception.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 5:33 p.m.

    Doubling Down?

    Last I heard the Tea-Party had their little Government shutdown tantrum,
    it didn't work, completely back-fired,
    and now the GOP has been trying to save face for the next election ever since.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 5:14 p.m.

    But...if people can now leave employment which they had because they wanted the health coverage, the employment is still there. People can leave jobs they didn't really need and those jobs then become available to the unemployed who need the income. It's like job creation. If we could only put in place a single payer health care system, people wouldn't have to make employment decisions like this, and employers would have a huge burden removed.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Feb. 6, 2014 5:11 p.m.

    How long will American taxpayers put up with all this? So many takers so few payers!

  • FreedomFighter41 Provo, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 4:57 p.m.

    Still?

    Repubs, Obamacare was so 2010.

    Get over it.

  • 1covey Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 4:50 p.m.

    It's better to be a dollar below the poverty line than just above it. You have to be well above it to be at the same point as those receiving assistance. Healthcare also involves taking care of your health=diet, exercise,rest,etc..Most of us need to do better at this- i doesn't cost much. Yeah, keep clean and brush your teeth.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 4:23 p.m.

    Republicans: It's the law of the land, improve it if you don't like it.
    Also, try to justify why you believe it's ok for Americans to be without access to healthcare. Why do so many Americans have to declare bankruptcy due to health bills?

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 3:29 p.m.

    If you have both parents in a family working, then one of them gets a raise or enough benefits that you don't need the second one working anymore and that second one quits (to stay at home and raise kids or whatever)... that's a negative?

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 3:13 p.m.

    Re: ". . . ACA will actually give more Americans freedom."

    Yeah, freedom from working or caring for their needs and wants. Freedom from responsibility. Freedom from bettering oneself.

    Just another in a long series of cynical liberal promises of freedom from consequences.

    Saddest of all -- liberals use these disingenuous, impossible promises as the scrip in their evil vote-buying scams. They've embraced, even exalted the discredited "free lunch" principle to the level of a sacrament in their socialist cult.

    History teaches us that this can only end badly.

    That's probably the reason liberal educators no longer teach history.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Feb. 6, 2014 2:53 p.m.

    Can you really call it "doubling down" when you have been doing the exact same thing for years?

    Just sayin.

  • liberty or ...? Ogden, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 2:48 p.m.

    I love this play on words "JOB LOCK" as if you never had the freedom to quit your job before and get your employment and health insurance from another provider. I was taught in college that its less than smart to voluntarily leave you current employment before securing another position barring a major conflict of interest or problem. Incidentaly you quit your job, lose your insurance you still have to pay for health insurance under ACA subsidies unless you go on wellfare so now your unemployed with no income and a wellfare recipient. Wow when I was a kid in America I could aspire to be a independant wealthy doctor,engineer,scientist, business owner, or astronaut. I guess in new America I can aspire to be a government dependant wellfare recipiant.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 2:38 p.m.

    So Joe and Susan quit their jobs so they can qualify for the free government subsidies for health care ...but Dave and Karen have to work to PAY for those subsidies that Joe and Susan get for free. So the Democrats new model for America is a nation of free loaders.

  • Brave Sir Robin San Diego, CA
    Feb. 6, 2014 2:21 p.m.

    If by "freedom" you mean able to do stop working and live off the work of others, then yes, the ACA will give more Americans freedom.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Feb. 6, 2014 2:05 p.m.

    So the bottom line is that the ACA will actually give more Americans freedom. And the GOP is against that?