Published: Thursday, Feb. 6 2014 12:00 a.m. MST
@2 bits, I'm with you. Let's encourage people to move somewhere else.
To "Richard Fox" that is the great thing about capitalism. As resources
become limited, they also become more expensive. As the price goes up,
consumption and use go down. At the same time as availability goes down, people
come up with new ways of either producing that item or else come up with a
substitution that can be made cheaper. If they do a good job, then they begin
to prosper and move forward.For example, it used to be that piano
keys were made out of ivory. As the availability of ivory diminished, the
people that made piano keys found that they could make really nice looking keys
out of plastic.The same with virtually every other product that has
been replaced. When a viable option comes along, people adapt. When food
begins to be in short supply, the cost will go up, and people will self regulate
and population will not grow at the same rate.If you let capitalism
work, solutions will be found.
RedCal: And when fresh water becomes in short supply?? How will people
"self regulate" then? The mayor might be on the right track if the new
housing he proposes in SLC is high density without lawns and water consuming
plants and built to current more stringent energy standards. Whoops. Utah
wouldn't adopt those standards since we don't listen to anyone outside
our borders. Yes sir, just more liberal calptrap telling us what to do!
RedShirtCalTechPasedena, CATo "Richard Fox" that is the
great thing about capitalism. As resources become limited, they also become more
expensive. As the price goes up, consumption and use go down.======== That's not always the case Red....Petroleum oil was black, dirty, and completely and utterly useless -- and only became economicially viable when whales were hunted into near
extinction.It was evolve, adapt or die.Man and greed of
the market destoyred the Do-Do, Quadda, Passenger Pidgeon, Carolina Parakeet,
and dozens of other species.Captitalism is like fire, kept
contoled and regulated it provides warmth and safety.Left unchecked
and to itself, it detroys everything in its path.
HutteriteI didn't say you can't see ANY signs of humans from
orbit, or from a plane. Obviously there are many places we do exist and you
can see our impact.But what I said is... there are a lot of places
on the planet where humans don't even exist (yet). The space that is
currently actually inhabited by homo-sapiens is probably around 1% (of the total
land mass). We are just clumped into such tight spaces (in our big cities).We need to spread out. Not pile up in mega-cities that are
unsustainable on their own. Try to have LA sustain it's own needs for a
year... there would be mass starvation.===But
that's what we keep building... mega-cities, with more high-density
housing, so we can fit more people into a smaller space. But those people
still drive their own cars, heat their own homes, use water, fuel, etc....High-density housing of humans is counter-productive if you are going
for sustainability. We don't get oxygen from more asphalt or more
skyscrapers... we get it from more plant life. So doing away with
lawns/vegetation is not the goal.
To "Grover" that is simple. As the supply of fresh water decreases from
its current sources, then the price goes up until new sources become available.
As price increase, use goes down. A good example of this is gasoline. When it
was around $1.50/gallon we were using more gas than we have been since the price
has been up over $3.00/gallon. Plus, as the cost to deliver fresh water from
our current sources goes up, the viability of desalinization for coastal areas
becomes a reality.To "LDS Liberal" and
liberalism/Progressivism is like water to capitalism's fire. The more
liberalism you pour on the fire, the more usless it becomes until it is put out
and everybody is left in the dark, cold, and hungry.
Tyler D: no, you can't make that assumption. Those economists you're
referring to are probably Malthusians (aka Keynesians) themselves. Central
planning has never succeeded and never will. I don't think it's a good
idea to give them enough rope to hang themselves because we'll all go down
Irony guyBurn hydrogen. That is how to produce more water.LDS
lib,Only applies IF we are good stewards? You mean God did not know when
He created the earth and placed us on it some of you would NOT be good stewards
and He therefore did not create enough? Sorry, I do not accept that argument.
Those who lack faith will tell us that unless God listens to them, that
we're doomed. Wow! What arrogance. They would limit God. They would tell
God who He can bless and exactly how much He can bless them. In other words
they have already judged everyone and found everyone but themselves to be
lacking.Fortunately, God will do His work whether they participate
or not. He will still send the sunshine, even on us sinners. He'll give
us moisture. He'll bless our crops, our flocks, our herds, and our
families. The covenant that he has made with His children does not need their
approval. God has enough and to spare whether some people believe
it or not. Those of us who are under covenant understand our full
responsibility and most of us are actively engaged in fulfilling those
responsibilities. The sky is not falling.
@mike richards. Why hasn't god given California an abundance of rain or the
Colorado basin an abundance of snow. You know there is a difference between
blind faith and being good stewards of the environment. Will god
reward people with abundance if they are bent on destroying his gifts or being
The population explosions is a left over from the last century myth. Now the
opposite is true - Europe, Asia, and the US are facing a major loss of
population that will have disastrous results for our planet. 2012/11/28/'united states faces demographic bomb coming under population
problems' by Arland Nichols. 'There is no baby-boom - there is a
birth-dearth. And, yes, there is economic stagnation and looming long-term
economic decline, but this is exacerbated (or perhaps caused by) the decline in
birth rates....We have witnessed this in the disastrous economic situation
throughout Europe, which is due in part to extremely low birth rates.
Europe's fate appears increasingly likely for the United States. We are not
having enough babies to replace our current population levels . From a
documentary by Peter J Smith entitled."Demographic Bomb: demography is
destiny,"...The phrase "demographic winter" refers to the
contemporary phenomenon of a worldwide rapid decline in birthrates. The new
documentary makes a forceful case that the loss of millions due to population
control efforts has meant an irreplaceable loss of millions of producers and
consumers who otherwise would be participating and supporting today's
"A good example of this is gasoline. When it was around $1.50/gallon we were
using more gas than we have been since the price has been up over
$3.00/gallon."And that is fine like a country like America.
But, think about it. Oil is a commodity, just like gold and silver. The price does not fluctuate based on location or economy.The
value of a bbl of oil is based on the world value. So, if you look at the cost
throughout the world of barrel of oil is fairly constant.Factor in
taxes and cost to refine and one can reasonably predict the cost of gasoline.So, if you go to Nicaragua, for instance, where the average wage in US
dollars is just over $2 per hour, the price of gasoline is still over $4 per
gallon (closer to $5).That is where the argument falls apart.
Re: RedShirtCalTech " When food begins to be in short supply, the cost
will go up, and people will self regulate and population will not grow at the
same rate."Robert Malthus lives!
Shaun, I'm sure that you know the answer to your questions,
but, if you really want to know, why not ask Him who sends moisture. While
you're in that religious mode, why not do a study of all the times during
earth's history when the heavens were sealed?There are many
reasons God chooses to withhold blessings, just like there are many times when a
righteous father and mother take away privileges when their children show
contempt and disrespect. Just because God chooses to withhold blessings does not
mean that He has nothing to give. Giving "spoiled brats" blessings that
are neither acknowledged nor appreciated is something that the Creator off all
things will not always do, any more than a righteous father and mother would
would continue to shower "blessings" and "kindness" on mocking
children.If you had millions of dollars to bestow, would you pay
attention to the attitudes of the receivers? God gave us much more than money.
He gave us life and instructions on how to best use that life. Too many
squander life as if it were as worthless as money.
@MikeRichardsThose who lack faith will tell us that unless God
listens to them, that we're doomed. Wow! What arrogance. They would limit
God. They would tell God who He can bless and exactly how much He can bless
them.4:49p.m.Feb.6,2014========= Mike, What part of "Man can NOT be save in ignorance" -- slips past
you?God is NOT going to save those who pretend to be
"ignorant".He expects us to do all we can, THEN act in faith.He gives Man skills, intellect, ingenuity, a spark of his divine glory
to imagine, create and problem solve-- I don't believe He will
float down and say "SpitSpot" Mary Poppin's style and clean the
Earth for us so we can go outside and fly kites!FYI -- I do not
"mock" God. I see his Love and Wisdom to trust us with some of HIS
knowledge so we can make due for ourselves.It's part of Growing
up.He also commanded us to tend, dress and beautify this world.I intend to keep his Commandments.BTW -- since you claim so much
faith - don't see a Doctor.By your account, that would also be
Some hide under the cloak of "LDS" or "Mormon", thinking perhaps
that doing that gives them "gavitas". One poster mocking said to use
faith instead of seeing a doctor.Recently Elder Oaks said:
"Brigham Young would ask, “Have you used any remedies?” To those
who said no because “we wish the Elders to lay hands upon us, and we have
faith that we shall be healed,” President Young replied: “That is
very inconsistent according to my faith. If we are sick, and ask the Lord to
heal us, and to do all for us that is necessary to be done, according to my
understanding of the Gospel of salvation, I might as well ask the Lord to cause
my wheat and corn to grow, without my plowing the ground and casting in the
seed. It appears consistent to me to apply every remedy that comes within the
range of my knowledge, and [then] to ask my Father in Heaven … to sanctify
that application to the healing of my body.” Everything
belongs to the Lord. We are simply caretakers. He gave us sufficient
instructions on how to do our duties.
@Mike Richards – “There are many reasons God chooses to withhold
blessings…”I’m always baffled by responses like
this especially when they are put forward as coherent explanations about the
natural world.There’s a flood – it’s God.
There’s no flood – it’s God. There’s an earthquake
– it’s God. There’s no earthquake – it’s God. We
could continue this indefinitely…But this demonstrates quite
effectively why so many scientists fall into the agnostic/atheist camp –
if God is the explanation for everything then he is effectively an explanation
for nothing – i.e., if you remove God as an explanation and no facts are
changed, then from a scientific perspective there is simply no reason to posit
God. Your case is much stronger when you stick to personal
experience – how has God changed your life.
"One child limit (like China)?"Must not be such as bad
economic plan, as China has enough excess money to loan to the US in the amount
of several trillion.
Business models need to mimic biological models to better "fit" how the
world works and allow the earth to continue replenishing itself to support life.
Nothing in nature is wasted -- the "waste" of one living entity is the
"nutrients" for another (e.g., falling leaves from a tree nurture the
soil for animals and other plants, that in turn, emit nutrients to benefit the
tree -- a circular system).Business people see the forests, however,
and say, "Ah, tomorrow's toilet paper!" when they should be saying,
"Ah, the lungs of the earth that produce our air and captures carbon!"
Sadly, business models say that a tree has no value unless it is converted to
toilet paper to be flushed away rather than having it valued as critical for
life to exist. The question then is: How do we price that tree to reflect its
true value of creating oxygen and capturing carbon? A carbon tax to pay people
NOT to cut down trees?Prices and business models are short-sighted
human inventions. But the earth's biological models, designed by God
himself, require systems to rejuvenate themselves -- and humans need to adapt to
that eternal biological design.
To "Baron Scarpia" since you are a liberal, you probably don't
fully understand how businessmen look at a tree.A businessman who
wants to be in business a year from now will look at that tree and see the
potential products. He will also look at the land and figure out how to new
replacement trees as soon as possible. You see, a businessman that uses up all
of his resources won't be around beyond next week. The businessman that
looks for ways to keep a constant flow of resources will stay in business as
long as there is a demand for his product.
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