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Comments about ‘Conservative? Liberal? Gallup ranks the states’

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Published: Wednesday, Feb. 5 2014 12:00 a.m. MST

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Philosopher
Goose Creek, SC

@ 2 bits:

My deduction is merely a light criticism of wording from the actual Gallup poll:

"For the most part, the top conservative states align with the most Republican states in the union, and the top liberal states, with the most Democratic areas."

Secondly, assuming I have a 'shallow understanding' is taking a shot at the person and does not defend your argument.

JoeCapitalist2
Orem, UT

Once again we have several liberal commentators who claim to be fiscally conservative, yet complain loudly how all those "wacky Republicans" have left them behind with mostly social issues. They point out every flaw they see in the GOP, yet somehow "reluctantly" find themselves more closely aligned with the Democrats. The DEMS, of course, have not drifted to the extremely left, don't pull political tactics that harm the country, and generally have very "moderate views". Did I get that right?

As a conservative, I have lots of problems with the GOP and its leadership. There are a few things where I find more agreement with the Democrats than with the GOP. But I certainly won't claim that I wish I could be a Democrat if those "crazy factions hadn't changed the party".

Schnee
Salt Lake City, UT

@Mountainman
"California has the highest number of welfare recipients by far: 1,085,627. The next highest recipient state is New York, with 341,004 people on welfare. "

So I was right. Your original comment was false because while you said per capita you aren't using per capita numbers.

SG in SLC
Salt Lake City, UT

"California has the highest number of welfare recipients by far: 1,085,627."
- Mountanman, 9:30 a.m. Feb. 5, 2014

I'm not surprised. California also has the highest number of Caucasian Americans, Latino Americans, European Americans, Roman Catholics, Hindus, Muslims, millionaires, doctors, left-handed people, people who speak Chinese as a primary language, and people who speak Vietnamese as a primary language of any state in the U.S., and I'm sure that there are many other demographics I have missed, where California number one in total.

And here's the kicker . . . California also has the highest number of PEOPLE, by far (38.3 million people, versus 26.4 million in 2nd ranked Texas). That's why the "number of welfare recipients" statistic (and most other statistics) need to be calculated and cited on a per capita basis to be credible.

JoeBlow
Far East USA, SC

JoeCap,

The GOP has a very poor record of fiscal conservatism. Not saying the Dems are any better, just that there is not much diff between them.

That said, the GOP seems more willing to get us into war and spend excessively there. The Dems spend, but I see more good coming from the dem spending. The GOP only becomes fiscally conservative when they are not in control.

Under Boehner, McConnell, Canter and Ryan, they all spent like drunken sailors. All while cutting taxes for the richest Americans.

Healthcare is a huge issue going forward. The dems are tackling the problem poorly. The GOP sees no need to touch it.

Immigration is a big issue. Neither party wants to really touch it. What did the GOP do about it for 6 years when they controlled the government?

Both of our parties are taking this country down the drain. And I see them continuing to do so in the future. I just like the Dems destructive path better than the GOP's. At least as of late.

And no, the Dems have not drifted to the extreme left.

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@JoeCapitalist2 – “But I certainly won't claim that I wish I could be a Democrat if those "crazy factions hadn't changed the party"

You’re missing the point – we were simply pointing out where we are on the political spectrum when viewed over the past 60-70 years.

Speaking for myself, certainly there’s wing of the Democratic Party I don’t align with (e.g., I don’t think race & poverty explain all our social problems, I don’t think communism is better than capitalism, and I deplore moral relativism).

But do you honestly believe the Republican Party hasn’t moved to the far right?

Eisenhower’s tax policies would make him a virtual communist today, and Nixon created the EPA and tried to pass essentially Obamacare WITH the Public Option (i.e., Obamacare is to the right of Nixon).

When Obama tried to pass Romney’s healthcare plan, McCain’s cap & trade bill, George Bush’s immigration bill, and kills more Islamic terrorists than Bush – sorry, but I’m going to take issue with the “wacky” wing of your party that thinks he’s a Marxist and a secret Muslim… call me crazy.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

RE: "Utah is closet liberal, leading the charge to make same sex marriage legal nation wide". (Hutterite)

===

Hutter may have a point there. We were also the first to give women the right to vote as well. (goggle "Women's suffrage in Utah"). We were actually the first to vote to give women the right to vote TWICE... once in 1870 (when we were still a Territory) but that was revoked by Congress. Then again 1895 when we wrote it into our Constitution when we became a new State.

An interesting quote from the article... "Utah women probably succeeded in 1895 where women elsewhere had failed because their efforts were approved by leaders of the main political force in the state--the Mormon church".

So much for political stereotypes.

===

I personally think the stereotypes attached to the terms "Liberal" and "Conservative" today (which in today's politico-obsessed minds has become very twisted)... are bogus.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Philosopher,
I'm just saying that if you assume that if someone's a Democrat... they are "Liberal". Or if someone's a Republican... they are a "Conservative"... that's very shallow. It goes deeper than political labels. It's your life philosophy (not your party affiliation).

You need to know more than just their party affiliation to know if they are a "Conservative" or a "Liberal".

And there are Republicans who are liberal. And there are Democrats who are conservative.

Using the political labels is just too shallow a criteria.

ute alumni
SLC, UT

still looking for the 27.3% of utahns that approve of barry. glad i don't know any of those folks, if they really exist.

JoeCapitalist2
Orem, UT

Tyler D: "But do you honestly believe the Republican Party hasn’t moved to the far right?"

Absolutely! The GOP has moved farther to the LEFT than it has to the right. It pushes for too many pork spending projects and sells its soul for votes (although less than the DEMS do). It has done little to defend the US Constitution which was based on LIMITED government.

The federal government is about 3 times bigger than it should be. It taxes us at least twice what it should. And it has about 10 times as much power over our everyday lives as it should.

It might be convenient to blame that all on Democrats, but the truth is that it was a bi-partisan effort that got us where we are today.

Wonder
Provo, UT

@ute alumni -- You are glad you don't know ANYONE who approves of (or presumably voted for) Obama? That is amusing. If you ever meet one of us, you'll probably be in for a pleasant surprise.

Schnee
Salt Lake City, UT

@JoeCapitalist2
"The GOP has moved farther to the LEFT than it has to the right."

DW-NOMINATE scores the partisanship of Congressional voting records. +1 is perfectly conservative, -1 is perfectly liberal. The current GOP House has the highest positive value in the entire dataset of DW-NOMINATE scores. It even got more extreme after 2010 which is rare. Usually when a party takes control of the House it's by winning moderate seats and thus makes their caucus more moderate so it's to your credit that you elected that many strong conservatives in that tea party wave... and then gerrymandered them in so that they couldn't get booted out when their districts found out they were extreme...

@ute alumni
"still looking for the 27.3% of utahns that approve of barry. glad i don't know any of those folks, if they really exist."

Well I'm one and I'm pretty sure I exist.

UtahBlueDevil
Durham, NC

"still looking for the 27.3% of utahns that approve of barry. glad i don't know any of those folks, if they really exist."

Oh dear me..... Ute Alum doesn't know that 1/4 of the state exist. Must be a very nice little bubble to live in.

It is interesting to me that Mountainman has Alabama, South Carolina, Mississippi, Louisiana are all liberal states.... I wonder if they know that? 4 out of 5 of the states with the highest murder rates... vote conservative. But hey..... numbers... facts..... they are all relative depending on what story you want to tell... right?

patriot
Cedar Hills, UT

re:Tyler D

Have you seen Detroit lately? Detroit is the sad poster child of years of liberalism. A decaying, rotting mess. California is dying due to liberal policy and so is New York. Texas on the other hand is a conservative state and is #1 economically. Business are leaving California and New York and relocating to Texas. You don't see any business's relocating to California or New York do you. Wonder why New York is advertising on TV - begging people to reconsider New York for business? They wouldn't be doing that if people and business's were staying would they. As to your question, yes I would ten times rather live in Mississippi than Vermont. I would know in Mississippi my kids could join with other Christian kids in school rather than be scowled at in Vermont because they were Christian. I have family in Oregon and being a Mormon there in many cities isn't fun. Atheism reigns supreme. Again to my point ....nearly every GOP led state is prospering while every liberal led state is tipping toward bankruptcy. Numbers don't lie.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

@2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

We were also the first to give women the right to vote as well. (goggle "Women's suffrage in Utah").

=========

That was when Utah:

Practiced unorthodox marriages,
had Universal Healthcare,
practiced Communism,
ate meat "sparingly" and only in times of famine,
practiced alternative and natural medicines,
had a vast Government sponsored Social safety-net,
tried harder to be environmentally friendly,
was on the leading edge of Science and Technology,
made friends with the Native Americas,
and hated Republicans.

Yes,
Mormons used to the Liberals,
my how times have changed....

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@JoeCapitalist2 – “The GOP has moved farther to the LEFT…”

OK, we’re not comparing our positions over the last 60-70 years but the last 230 years. In that case yes, everyone has moved more to the left - if we can define left as policies created to deal with the Industrial Revolution and all the negative effects thereof – e.g., environmental destruction, monopolies, corporate power/abuse, consumer protections, safety, education, transportation, and all the other problems & amenities of a modern society that cannot or will not be provided by the private sector.

I’ve asked this question many times but have yet to get a good answer – where can we find the libertarian utopia where the government of 1787 is effective running a modern country in 2014? Surely if it’s the best possible model there would be at least one place we could see this… and by your reasoning it should be a virtual Shangri La.

@patriot – “I would ten times rather live in Mississippi than Vermont.”

So you would rather live in a squalid holler so long as your kids were living among fellow Christians… alrighty-then.

UtahBlueDevil
Durham, NC

:California is dying due to liberal policy and so is New York:

Wow.... news flash. Calif is a dying economy. I mean, it is only 2 Trillion dollars strong growing at 3.2 percent annually. That would me that the California economy grey about 64 Billion dollars last year. Doing a little math here... Utah economy is 114 million dollars... so that makes the growth rate of California about 57 percent of the entire Utah economy. Oh dear.... poor California.... every two years its growth rate eclipses Utahs total economy.

Do you understand how odd it sounds for a state with the economy that is a rounding error size of another economy to be trying to thump their chest. Sure.. Utah is growing.... but from a number that is only 6 percent the size of the other state? And every two years.... the California economy grows more that the entire economy of Utah...? Really.... Utah should wish to have the problems California economy has....

Schnee
Salt Lake City, UT

@patriot
"As to your question, yes I would ten times rather live in Mississippi than Vermont. "

Mississippi is #1 in poverty, infant mortality, percentage of people not paying income taxes, obesity, and STD rates. Even their weather is awful.

Cowboy Dude
SAINT GEORGE, UT

This is just dumb. Fiscal conservative is not social conservative.

This must really tick off the Californians. They have been considered a blue state since L.A. County joined the Bay Area, yet they have some of the most conservative counties in the country. Which is why we need to end the electoral college or break up California.

carman
Wasatch Front, UT

UtahBlueDevil:

While I get your point, can you imagine how many more jobs California could be creating if it weren't being so weighed down by the state's messed up fiscal situation, budget deficits, debt, etc. Also, California is on a similar trajectory as Illinois and other states like New Jersey who are now drowning in debt from bad decisions that compounded over time.

Don't crow too much about California. They may have to pay the piper sometime in the not-too-distant future. When they do, it will be painful. And shame on the boomer generation who is saddling their children and grandchildren with massive debt, higher future taxes, and a lower standard of living. It is the ultimate in "I want it now! consumerism".

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