Published: Wednesday, Feb. 5 2014 12:00 a.m. MST
@ 2 bits:My deduction is merely a light criticism of wording from
the actual Gallup poll:"For the most part, the top conservative
states align with the most Republican states in the union, and the top liberal
states, with the most Democratic areas."Secondly, assuming I
have a 'shallow understanding' is taking a shot at the person and does
not defend your argument.
Once again we have several liberal commentators who claim to be fiscally
conservative, yet complain loudly how all those "wacky Republicans" have
left them behind with mostly social issues. They point out every flaw they see
in the GOP, yet somehow "reluctantly" find themselves more closely
aligned with the Democrats. The DEMS, of course, have not drifted to the
extremely left, don't pull political tactics that harm the country, and
generally have very "moderate views". Did I get that right?As a conservative, I have lots of problems with the GOP and its leadership.
There are a few things where I find more agreement with the Democrats than with
the GOP. But I certainly won't claim that I wish I could be a Democrat if
those "crazy factions hadn't changed the party".
@Mountainman"California has the highest number of welfare recipients
by far: 1,085,627. The next highest recipient state is New York, with 341,004
people on welfare. "So I was right. Your original comment was
false because while you said per capita you aren't using per capita
"California has the highest number of welfare recipients by far:
1,085,627."- Mountanman, 9:30 a.m. Feb. 5, 2014I'm
not surprised. California also has the highest number of Caucasian Americans,
Latino Americans, European Americans, Roman Catholics, Hindus, Muslims,
millionaires, doctors, left-handed people, people who speak Chinese as a primary
language, and people who speak Vietnamese as a primary language of any state in
the U.S., and I'm sure that there are many other demographics I have
missed, where California number one in total. And here's the
kicker . . . California also has the highest number of PEOPLE, by far (38.3
million people, versus 26.4 million in 2nd ranked Texas). That's why the
"number of welfare recipients" statistic (and most other statistics)
need to be calculated and cited on a per capita basis to be credible.
JoeCap,The GOP has a very poor record of fiscal conservatism. Not
saying the Dems are any better, just that there is not much diff between
them.That said, the GOP seems more willing to get us into war and
spend excessively there. The Dems spend, but I see more good coming from the
dem spending. The GOP only becomes fiscally conservative when they are not in
control. Under Boehner, McConnell, Canter and Ryan, they all spent
like drunken sailors. All while cutting taxes for the richest Americans.Healthcare is a huge issue going forward. The dems are tackling the
problem poorly. The GOP sees no need to touch it.Immigration is a
big issue. Neither party wants to really touch it. What did the GOP do about
it for 6 years when they controlled the government?Both of our
parties are taking this country down the drain. And I see them continuing to do
so in the future. I just like the Dems destructive path better than the
GOP's. At least as of late.And no, the Dems have not drifted
to the extreme left.
@JoeCapitalist2 – “But I certainly won't claim that I wish I
could be a Democrat if those "crazy factions hadn't changed the
party"You’re missing the point – we were simply
pointing out where we are on the political spectrum when viewed over the past
60-70 years. Speaking for myself, certainly there’s wing of
the Democratic Party I don’t align with (e.g., I don’t think race
& poverty explain all our social problems, I don’t think communism is
better than capitalism, and I deplore moral relativism). But do you
honestly believe the Republican Party hasn’t moved to the far right? Eisenhower’s tax policies would make him a virtual communist
today, and Nixon created the EPA and tried to pass essentially Obamacare WITH
the Public Option (i.e., Obamacare is to the right of Nixon). When
Obama tried to pass Romney’s healthcare plan, McCain’s cap &
trade bill, George Bush’s immigration bill, and kills more Islamic
terrorists than Bush – sorry, but I’m going to take issue with the
“wacky” wing of your party that thinks he’s a Marxist and a
secret Muslim… call me crazy.
RE: "Utah is closet liberal, leading the charge to make same sex marriage
legal nation wide". (Hutterite)===Hutter may have a
point there. We were also the first to give women the right to vote as well.
(goggle "Women's suffrage in Utah"). We were actually the first
to vote to give women the right to vote TWICE... once in 1870 (when we were
still a Territory) but that was revoked by Congress. Then again 1895 when we
wrote it into our Constitution when we became a new State.An
interesting quote from the article... "Utah women probably succeeded in 1895
where women elsewhere had failed because their efforts were approved by leaders
of the main political force in the state--the Mormon church". So much for political stereotypes.===I personally
think the stereotypes attached to the terms "Liberal" and
"Conservative" today (which in today's politico-obsessed minds has
become very twisted)... are bogus.
Philosopher,I'm just saying that if you assume that if someone's
a Democrat... they are "Liberal". Or if someone's a Republican...
they are a "Conservative"... that's very shallow. It goes deeper
than political labels. It's your life philosophy (not your party
affiliation).You need to know more than just their party affiliation
to know if they are a "Conservative" or a "Liberal".And there are Republicans who are liberal. And there are Democrats who are
conservative.Using the political labels is just too shallow a
still looking for the 27.3% of utahns that approve of barry. glad i don't
know any of those folks, if they really exist.
Tyler D: "But do you honestly believe the Republican Party hasn’t
moved to the far right?"Absolutely! The GOP has moved farther to
the LEFT than it has to the right. It pushes for too many pork spending projects
and sells its soul for votes (although less than the DEMS do). It has done
little to defend the US Constitution which was based on LIMITED government.The federal government is about 3 times bigger than it should be. It
taxes us at least twice what it should. And it has about 10 times as much power
over our everyday lives as it should.It might be convenient to blame
that all on Democrats, but the truth is that it was a bi-partisan effort that
got us where we are today.
@ute alumni -- You are glad you don't know ANYONE who approves of (or
presumably voted for) Obama? That is amusing. If you ever meet one of us,
you'll probably be in for a pleasant surprise.
@JoeCapitalist2"The GOP has moved farther to the LEFT than it has to
the right."DW-NOMINATE scores the partisanship of Congressional
voting records. +1 is perfectly conservative, -1 is perfectly liberal. The
current GOP House has the highest positive value in the entire dataset of
DW-NOMINATE scores. It even got more extreme after 2010 which is rare. Usually
when a party takes control of the House it's by winning moderate seats and
thus makes their caucus more moderate so it's to your credit that you
elected that many strong conservatives in that tea party wave... and then
gerrymandered them in so that they couldn't get booted out when their
districts found out they were extreme...@ute alumni"still
looking for the 27.3% of utahns that approve of barry. glad i don't know
any of those folks, if they really exist."Well I'm one and
I'm pretty sure I exist.
"still looking for the 27.3% of utahns that approve of barry. glad i
don't know any of those folks, if they really exist."Oh
dear me..... Ute Alum doesn't know that 1/4 of the state exist. Must be a
very nice little bubble to live in.It is interesting to me that
Mountainman has Alabama, South Carolina, Mississippi, Louisiana are all liberal
states.... I wonder if they know that? 4 out of 5 of the states with the
highest murder rates... vote conservative. But hey..... numbers... facts.....
they are all relative depending on what story you want to tell... right?
re:Tyler DHave you seen Detroit lately? Detroit is the sad poster
child of years of liberalism. A decaying, rotting mess. California is dying due
to liberal policy and so is New York. Texas on the other hand is a conservative
state and is #1 economically. Business are leaving California and New York and
relocating to Texas. You don't see any business's relocating to
California or New York do you. Wonder why New York is advertising on TV -
begging people to reconsider New York for business? They wouldn't be doing
that if people and business's were staying would they. As to your
question, yes I would ten times rather live in Mississippi than Vermont. I would
know in Mississippi my kids could join with other Christian kids in school
rather than be scowled at in Vermont because they were Christian. I have family
in Oregon and being a Mormon there in many cities isn't fun. Atheism reigns
supreme. Again to my point ....nearly every GOP led state is prospering while
every liberal led state is tipping toward bankruptcy. Numbers don't lie.
@2 bitsCottonwood Heights, UTWe were also the first to give
women the right to vote as well. (goggle "Women's suffrage in
Utah"). ========= That was when Utah:Practiced unorthodox marriages, had Universal Healthcare, practiced Communism,ate meat "sparingly" and only in times of
famine, practiced alternative and natural medicines, had a vast
Government sponsored Social safety-net, tried harder to be environmentally
friendly, was on the leading edge of Science and Technology, made
friends with the Native Americas, and hated Republicans.Yes,
Mormons used to the Liberals, my how times have changed....
@JoeCapitalist2 – “The GOP has moved farther to the
LEFT…”OK, we’re not comparing our positions over
the last 60-70 years but the last 230 years. In that case yes, everyone has
moved more to the left - if we can define left as policies created to deal with
the Industrial Revolution and all the negative effects thereof – e.g.,
environmental destruction, monopolies, corporate power/abuse, consumer
protections, safety, education, transportation, and all the other problems &
amenities of a modern society that cannot or will not be provided by the private
sector.I’ve asked this question many times but have yet to get
a good answer – where can we find the libertarian utopia where the
government of 1787 is effective running a modern country in 2014? Surely if
it’s the best possible model there would be at least one place we could
see this… and by your reasoning it should be a virtual Shangri La.@patriot – “I would ten times rather live in Mississippi
than Vermont.”So you would rather live in a squalid holler so
long as your kids were living among fellow Christians… alrighty-then.
:California is dying due to liberal policy and so is New York:Wow.... news flash. Calif is a dying economy. I mean, it is only 2 Trillion
dollars strong growing at 3.2 percent annually. That would me that the
California economy grey about 64 Billion dollars last year. Doing a little math
here... Utah economy is 114 million dollars... so that makes the growth rate
of California about 57 percent of the entire Utah economy. Oh dear.... poor
California.... every two years its growth rate eclipses Utahs total economy.
Do you understand how odd it sounds for a state with the economy
that is a rounding error size of another economy to be trying to thump their
chest. Sure.. Utah is growing.... but from a number that is only 6 percent the
size of the other state? And every two years.... the California economy grows
more that the entire economy of Utah...? Really.... Utah should wish to
have the problems California economy has....
@patriot"As to your question, yes I would ten times rather live in
Mississippi than Vermont. "Mississippi is #1 in poverty, infant
mortality, percentage of people not paying income taxes, obesity, and STD rates.
Even their weather is awful.
This is just dumb. Fiscal conservative is not social conservative. This must really tick off the Californians. They have been considered a blue
state since L.A. County joined the Bay Area, yet they have some of the most
conservative counties in the country. Which is why we need to end the electoral
college or break up California.
UtahBlueDevil:While I get your point, can you imagine how many more
jobs California could be creating if it weren't being so weighed down by
the state's messed up fiscal situation, budget deficits, debt, etc. Also,
California is on a similar trajectory as Illinois and other states like New
Jersey who are now drowning in debt from bad decisions that compounded over
time.Don't crow too much about California. They may have to
pay the piper sometime in the not-too-distant future. When they do, it will be
painful. And shame on the boomer generation who is saddling their children and
grandchildren with massive debt, higher future taxes, and a lower standard of
living. It is the ultimate in "I want it now! consumerism".
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