"the conservative advantage is still appears predominant."I
can buy that. I consider myself a fiscal conservative (social moderate). I
used to vote consistently R. But the GOP doesn't want me. I
am not religious. I don't see how gay marriage affects me. I don't
think that the GOP is fiscally conservative. Some regulation is good. We need
to raise taxes and cut spending until we balance our budget.No, the
GOP does not want me at all.And the GOP has become embarrassing.
The birthers, some of their plain ignorant stances concerning abortion, the
rejection of science.The political emails with no basis in fact that get
spread around constantly and accepted at face value. I take issue
with many of the Democrats stances. But, I do not find them generally
embarrassing. The GOP seems to revel in it.
What do the words 'conservative' and 'liberal' mean anymore?
Aside from money, what do Republicans conserve? Aside from constitutional and
moral values, what are Democrats 'liberating'?
This is absurd. After the gerrymandering that goes on every ten years by the two
major parties, is it any surprise that this is a result? Using
'conservative' and 'liberal' to divide the electorate and
stop us from uniting around our common issues benefits only the corporatists in
power who could care less about party affiliation and ideology. The people who
have most benefited from the policies created by both conservatives and liberals
in the last 40 years have been the one percent. It has been my experience that
we all have some measure of conservative and liberal within us. When we will
come together and elect candidates who represent us, not the corporations?
I would love to see an education and economic overlay to this same map. For
instance, compare education in Vermont to Mississippi, or education in
Massachusetts to Idaho. At the same time compare economic overlay as well. How
does the economy in Alabama compare to the economy in New Jersey or Oregon? What
percentage of high school seniors move on to upper level colleges in Maine
versus those graduating in Oklahoma? From en economic standpoint (real estate
value, average wage, number of people requiring government assistance just to
pay the bills) how does Mississippi compare to Vermont? I just think these
types of overlays would be interesting to see.
@ Fatheroffour. I live in Idaho and am very proud of my state. Its a wonderful
place to live, work and raise a family. Very low crime, good schools, clean air,
beautiful mountains, lakes and forests. Idaho is full of wonderful, hard
working, patriotic conservative people. And Idaho's state government is in
the black fiscally. In fact, no one could pay me enough to live in a liberal
Or we could compare the states with the highest crime rates or the highest
number of welfare recipients per capita, or the states that have the highest
debts? California leads the nation in every one of those categories followed
closely by other liberal states. No thanks, I will gladly live out my life in
good old conservative Idaho where life is good.
Utah is closet liberal, leading the charge to make same sex marriage legal
Mountanman, what is your source for your statement? According to the cencus the
states with the highest (violent) crime rates are Tennessee, Nevada and
Alaska--all conservative states. You might want to check facts before you post
things like this.By the way, the crime rates in liberal states like
California and New York are dropping.
@Hutterite:What you meant to say was one person, Judge Shelby, is a closet
liberal leading the charge to make same sex marriage legal nation wide. Utah is
firmly against changing the definition of traditional marriage.
@JoeBlow – “I consider myself a fiscal conservative (social
moderate). I used to vote consistently R. But the GOP doesn't want
me.”My sentiments exactly Joe (or is it Mr. Blow?)!!By historical standards (and not today’s Tea Party) I’m
center-right largely for economic/business reasons, but admit I don’t
relate at all to most of what falls under the label of “social
conservative.”But this current GOP has gone off the rails as
evidenced by the fact that they won’t own any of their real positions
– “we didn’t shut down the government” when they
strategized for months to do exactly that, or “we want to balance the
budget” when everyone know what they really want is to shrink government
down to a size where it can be drowned in a bathtub (the 90’s Reps wanted
to balance the budget and they did, through cut AND taxes) Also,
it’s telling the amount of pushback we “RINOs” get on this
forum from the Tea Party folks (i.e., the purity police). They may never win a
national election again, but at least they’ll have the pride of
“knowing” they’re right.
@Mountanman" with the highest crime rates or the highest number of
welfare recipients per capita, or the states that have the highest debts?
California leads the nation in every one of those categories"I
think we should see the maps of this because your first two conclusions are
incorrect. Are you sure you were looking at rates or totals, because California
has the largest population so it might have the highest totals while not having
the highest rates?Louisiana has the highest murder rate (behind DC),
Tennessee has the highest violent crime rate (behind DC). Mississippi is the poorest state in the nation as well as the highest
percentage of people not paying federal income taxes (Romney won 8 out of the
top 10 in this category, Obama won New Mexico and Florida) so they would take
the highest rate of welfare recipients. I'll give you the debt
@dmcvey. Google each category for sources. Its very interesting as you will see.
Crime is dropping in every state, not just liberal ones. Its just that we have
so little crime here that its hard to measure.
California has the highest number of welfare recipients by far: 1,085,627. The
next highest recipient state is New York, with 341,004 people on welfare.
According to homework helper.
If one chooses a liberal or conservative lens as the reference point from which
all issues and arguments are viewed then one should not expect to be able to
clearly evaluate said arguments and issues.
the liberal states are bankrupt and dying including Michigan, California, New
York etc.. The more conservative states with GOP governors are doing quite well
economically including Texas, Utah, etc... Bottom line - liberalism destroys and
conservatism builds and grows....but we already knew that.
I have found myself in the same position as Joe Blow and Tyler D. I used to be
a Republican and am probably center right on most things (i.e. I'm an old
fashioned Republican), but there is no way I identify any more with the
anti-science, victim playing, get something for nothing (i.e. get a bunch of
government benefits without paying any taxes) party the Republicans have become.
Fact is, we need SOME government regulation. We need to pay sufficient taxes
to operate the government we actually want (not the tiny government we say we
want until small government affects us personally). There are members of our
society who actually do need help, and it is more efficient for us to
collectively help them with things like health care instead of hoping that some
doctors and hospitals will provide care for free. Or hoping that their
neighbors can come up with a few hundred thou to pay for their medical care.
The answers aren't easy, and the simplistic tea party ideas are set ups for
a failed society.
@Hutterite:"Utah is closet liberal." Absolutely, leading the
charge to promote traditional marriage as a powerful tool to fight poverty.
Oregan and New Mexico are closet conservatives retreating on human rights.
@patriot – “liberalism destroys and conservatism builds and
grows....”Continuing in this spirit of myopic observations and
facile conclusions, by any measure of quality of life would you rather raise
your kids in Vermont or Mississippi?@Wonder – “I have
found myself in the same position as Joe Blow and Tyler D.”I
suspect there are many more like us than not (perhaps a majority), but
unfortunately our politics - driven by “news” as a profit center -
have been hijacked by the extremes. If we can ever fix our
gerrymandering problem and if/when people get tired of having others think for
them (by strategically pushing all their emotional buttons – fear on FOX
and empathy on MSNBC), we may start letting then grownups take charge again.But for now, as the saying goes, we’re getting the government we
PhilosopherRe: "what do Republicans conserve? Aside from
constitutional and moral values, what are Democrats
'liberating'"...First of all, Republicans are not
necessarily "Conservatives". And Democrats are not necessarily
"Liberals". Assuming that just illustrates a shallow understanding of
the contradiction that is perplexing you.#2. Conservatives (not
Republicans) conserve... -Money (they save more and spend less than
Liberals in general). -nature (a real conservative loves, preserves, and
knows he owes his existence to the land). -History (they keep reminding
people of the real history of our country and mankind throughout the ages).-Simple living (a real conservative would live as simple a life as possible).
The people living in the huge McMansions are not real Conservatives (even if
they are religious).Liberals think they are liberating us by
removing morals, and spending liberally, and pretending history doesn't
matter (just their spin and reconstruction of history matters).That
was a very superficial analysis of the differences based on the traditional
stereotypes. Others may see it differently.
@WonderProvo, UTI have found myself in the same position as
Joe Blow and Tyler D. ======= Agreed -- I as well.The last Republican I voted for AS a Republican was Ronald Reagan.You know:Banning hand guns and assault weapons, singed
abortion legislation,more Executive Orders than anyone else in the last 80
years, granted amnesty to illegal immigrants, raised the debt
ceiling 17 times, Increased the size and scope of the Federal Government,
etc., etc., etc.The GOP and Tea-Partiers today SAY they love
Reagan, but he would be a RINO and publically crucified by them today.THEY keep moving the goal posts, [don't believe me, ask Mitt
Romney how he feels about them]. I am now UN-affiliated, but
as the GOP drifts further and further to the uber-far-right-wing outfield, it makes me and other FORMER Republicans appear to be becoming more and more
left of center, including Reagan.
@ 2 bits:My deduction is merely a light criticism of wording from
the actual Gallup poll:"For the most part, the top conservative
states align with the most Republican states in the union, and the top liberal
states, with the most Democratic areas."Secondly, assuming I
have a 'shallow understanding' is taking a shot at the person and does
not defend your argument.
Once again we have several liberal commentators who claim to be fiscally
conservative, yet complain loudly how all those "wacky Republicans" have
left them behind with mostly social issues. They point out every flaw they see
in the GOP, yet somehow "reluctantly" find themselves more closely
aligned with the Democrats. The DEMS, of course, have not drifted to the
extremely left, don't pull political tactics that harm the country, and
generally have very "moderate views". Did I get that right?As a conservative, I have lots of problems with the GOP and its leadership.
There are a few things where I find more agreement with the Democrats than with
the GOP. But I certainly won't claim that I wish I could be a Democrat if
those "crazy factions hadn't changed the party".
@Mountainman"California has the highest number of welfare recipients
by far: 1,085,627. The next highest recipient state is New York, with 341,004
people on welfare. "So I was right. Your original comment was
false because while you said per capita you aren't using per capita
"California has the highest number of welfare recipients by far:
1,085,627."- Mountanman, 9:30 a.m. Feb. 5, 2014I'm
not surprised. California also has the highest number of Caucasian Americans,
Latino Americans, European Americans, Roman Catholics, Hindus, Muslims,
millionaires, doctors, left-handed people, people who speak Chinese as a primary
language, and people who speak Vietnamese as a primary language of any state in
the U.S., and I'm sure that there are many other demographics I have
missed, where California number one in total. And here's the
kicker . . . California also has the highest number of PEOPLE, by far (38.3
million people, versus 26.4 million in 2nd ranked Texas). That's why the
"number of welfare recipients" statistic (and most other statistics)
need to be calculated and cited on a per capita basis to be credible.
JoeCap,The GOP has a very poor record of fiscal conservatism. Not
saying the Dems are any better, just that there is not much diff between
them.That said, the GOP seems more willing to get us into war and
spend excessively there. The Dems spend, but I see more good coming from the
dem spending. The GOP only becomes fiscally conservative when they are not in
control. Under Boehner, McConnell, Canter and Ryan, they all spent
like drunken sailors. All while cutting taxes for the richest Americans.Healthcare is a huge issue going forward. The dems are tackling the
problem poorly. The GOP sees no need to touch it.Immigration is a
big issue. Neither party wants to really touch it. What did the GOP do about
it for 6 years when they controlled the government?Both of our
parties are taking this country down the drain. And I see them continuing to do
so in the future. I just like the Dems destructive path better than the
GOP's. At least as of late.And no, the Dems have not drifted
to the extreme left.
@JoeCapitalist2 – “But I certainly won't claim that I wish I
could be a Democrat if those "crazy factions hadn't changed the
party"You’re missing the point – we were simply
pointing out where we are on the political spectrum when viewed over the past
60-70 years. Speaking for myself, certainly there’s wing of
the Democratic Party I don’t align with (e.g., I don’t think race
& poverty explain all our social problems, I don’t think communism is
better than capitalism, and I deplore moral relativism). But do you
honestly believe the Republican Party hasn’t moved to the far right? Eisenhower’s tax policies would make him a virtual communist
today, and Nixon created the EPA and tried to pass essentially Obamacare WITH
the Public Option (i.e., Obamacare is to the right of Nixon). When
Obama tried to pass Romney’s healthcare plan, McCain’s cap &
trade bill, George Bush’s immigration bill, and kills more Islamic
terrorists than Bush – sorry, but I’m going to take issue with the
“wacky” wing of your party that thinks he’s a Marxist and a
secret Muslim… call me crazy.
RE: "Utah is closet liberal, leading the charge to make same sex marriage
legal nation wide". (Hutterite)===Hutter may have a
point there. We were also the first to give women the right to vote as well.
(goggle "Women's suffrage in Utah"). We were actually the first
to vote to give women the right to vote TWICE... once in 1870 (when we were
still a Territory) but that was revoked by Congress. Then again 1895 when we
wrote it into our Constitution when we became a new State.An
interesting quote from the article... "Utah women probably succeeded in 1895
where women elsewhere had failed because their efforts were approved by leaders
of the main political force in the state--the Mormon church". So much for political stereotypes.===I personally
think the stereotypes attached to the terms "Liberal" and
"Conservative" today (which in today's politico-obsessed minds has
become very twisted)... are bogus.
Philosopher,I'm just saying that if you assume that if someone's
a Democrat... they are "Liberal". Or if someone's a Republican...
they are a "Conservative"... that's very shallow. It goes deeper
than political labels. It's your life philosophy (not your party
affiliation).You need to know more than just their party affiliation
to know if they are a "Conservative" or a "Liberal".And there are Republicans who are liberal. And there are Democrats who are
conservative.Using the political labels is just too shallow a
still looking for the 27.3% of utahns that approve of barry. glad i don't
know any of those folks, if they really exist.
Tyler D: "But do you honestly believe the Republican Party hasn’t
moved to the far right?"Absolutely! The GOP has moved farther to
the LEFT than it has to the right. It pushes for too many pork spending projects
and sells its soul for votes (although less than the DEMS do). It has done
little to defend the US Constitution which was based on LIMITED government.The federal government is about 3 times bigger than it should be. It
taxes us at least twice what it should. And it has about 10 times as much power
over our everyday lives as it should.It might be convenient to blame
that all on Democrats, but the truth is that it was a bi-partisan effort that
got us where we are today.
@ute alumni -- You are glad you don't know ANYONE who approves of (or
presumably voted for) Obama? That is amusing. If you ever meet one of us,
you'll probably be in for a pleasant surprise.
@JoeCapitalist2"The GOP has moved farther to the LEFT than it has to
the right."DW-NOMINATE scores the partisanship of Congressional
voting records. +1 is perfectly conservative, -1 is perfectly liberal. The
current GOP House has the highest positive value in the entire dataset of
DW-NOMINATE scores. It even got more extreme after 2010 which is rare. Usually
when a party takes control of the House it's by winning moderate seats and
thus makes their caucus more moderate so it's to your credit that you
elected that many strong conservatives in that tea party wave... and then
gerrymandered them in so that they couldn't get booted out when their
districts found out they were extreme...@ute alumni"still
looking for the 27.3% of utahns that approve of barry. glad i don't know
any of those folks, if they really exist."Well I'm one and
I'm pretty sure I exist.
"still looking for the 27.3% of utahns that approve of barry. glad i
don't know any of those folks, if they really exist."Oh
dear me..... Ute Alum doesn't know that 1/4 of the state exist. Must be a
very nice little bubble to live in.It is interesting to me that
Mountainman has Alabama, South Carolina, Mississippi, Louisiana are all liberal
states.... I wonder if they know that? 4 out of 5 of the states with the
highest murder rates... vote conservative. But hey..... numbers... facts.....
they are all relative depending on what story you want to tell... right?
re:Tyler DHave you seen Detroit lately? Detroit is the sad poster
child of years of liberalism. A decaying, rotting mess. California is dying due
to liberal policy and so is New York. Texas on the other hand is a conservative
state and is #1 economically. Business are leaving California and New York and
relocating to Texas. You don't see any business's relocating to
California or New York do you. Wonder why New York is advertising on TV -
begging people to reconsider New York for business? They wouldn't be doing
that if people and business's were staying would they. As to your
question, yes I would ten times rather live in Mississippi than Vermont. I would
know in Mississippi my kids could join with other Christian kids in school
rather than be scowled at in Vermont because they were Christian. I have family
in Oregon and being a Mormon there in many cities isn't fun. Atheism reigns
supreme. Again to my point ....nearly every GOP led state is prospering while
every liberal led state is tipping toward bankruptcy. Numbers don't lie.
@2 bitsCottonwood Heights, UTWe were also the first to give
women the right to vote as well. (goggle "Women's suffrage in
Utah"). ========= That was when Utah:Practiced unorthodox marriages, had Universal Healthcare, practiced Communism,ate meat "sparingly" and only in times of
famine, practiced alternative and natural medicines, had a vast
Government sponsored Social safety-net, tried harder to be environmentally
friendly, was on the leading edge of Science and Technology, made
friends with the Native Americas, and hated Republicans.Yes,
Mormons used to the Liberals, my how times have changed....
@JoeCapitalist2 – “The GOP has moved farther to the
LEFT…”OK, we’re not comparing our positions over
the last 60-70 years but the last 230 years. In that case yes, everyone has
moved more to the left - if we can define left as policies created to deal with
the Industrial Revolution and all the negative effects thereof – e.g.,
environmental destruction, monopolies, corporate power/abuse, consumer
protections, safety, education, transportation, and all the other problems &
amenities of a modern society that cannot or will not be provided by the private
sector.I’ve asked this question many times but have yet to get
a good answer – where can we find the libertarian utopia where the
government of 1787 is effective running a modern country in 2014? Surely if
it’s the best possible model there would be at least one place we could
see this… and by your reasoning it should be a virtual Shangri La.@patriot – “I would ten times rather live in Mississippi
than Vermont.”So you would rather live in a squalid holler so
long as your kids were living among fellow Christians… alrighty-then.
:California is dying due to liberal policy and so is New York:Wow.... news flash. Calif is a dying economy. I mean, it is only 2 Trillion
dollars strong growing at 3.2 percent annually. That would me that the
California economy grey about 64 Billion dollars last year. Doing a little math
here... Utah economy is 114 million dollars... so that makes the growth rate
of California about 57 percent of the entire Utah economy. Oh dear.... poor
California.... every two years its growth rate eclipses Utahs total economy.
Do you understand how odd it sounds for a state with the economy
that is a rounding error size of another economy to be trying to thump their
chest. Sure.. Utah is growing.... but from a number that is only 6 percent the
size of the other state? And every two years.... the California economy grows
more that the entire economy of Utah...? Really.... Utah should wish to
have the problems California economy has....
@patriot"As to your question, yes I would ten times rather live in
Mississippi than Vermont. "Mississippi is #1 in poverty, infant
mortality, percentage of people not paying income taxes, obesity, and STD rates.
Even their weather is awful.
This is just dumb. Fiscal conservative is not social conservative. This must really tick off the Californians. They have been considered a blue
state since L.A. County joined the Bay Area, yet they have some of the most
conservative counties in the country. Which is why we need to end the electoral
college or break up California.
UtahBlueDevil:While I get your point, can you imagine how many more
jobs California could be creating if it weren't being so weighed down by
the state's messed up fiscal situation, budget deficits, debt, etc. Also,
California is on a similar trajectory as Illinois and other states like New
Jersey who are now drowning in debt from bad decisions that compounded over
time.Don't crow too much about California. They may have to
pay the piper sometime in the not-too-distant future. When they do, it will be
painful. And shame on the boomer generation who is saddling their children and
grandchildren with massive debt, higher future taxes, and a lower standard of
living. It is the ultimate in "I want it now! consumerism".
The best most productive states and the ones in the least debt and creating the
most jobs are ones generally run by Republicans. Simple as that. Now if only
the liberal part of America will see that what's best for the state is best
for the nation and elect one of the Republican governors, the whole country will
be better off. The answers to our problems are easy and simple. Just vote the
right way, and remember what the vote of the last two Presidential elections has
not done. Create a better economy for all. And in doing so has added 7
trillion dollars of debt to all Americans.
LDS LiberalReminder, which folks like you always seem to need. TEA
Party. Taxed Enough Already. That is what the T-Party is and stands for. As
for Reagan. "Government is not the solution, but the problem." That
does not square with your assertion that he would be out of step with the TEA
Party. In fact, in his early days running for President, it was the
establishment Republicans of Nixon/Ford/Rockefeller ect. who were against
Reagan. Reagan was the maverick of his day. He would have fit well into todays
ANTI big government 17 trillion dollar debt Presidency of Obama and leadership
of Pelosi and Reid. He would have been much closer to todays conservative
Republicans than any of todays Democrats. And a question. If you are in deed
LDS. How do you square 17 trillion dollar debt as being justified? If the LDS
Church ran their economy like that they would be bankrupt. It goes totally
against LDS teachings about money.