RedShirtUSS Enterprise, UTTo "UtahBlueDevil" so tell us,
where does socialism work? Every nation that has tried it has severe problems
economically.Name the nation that has claimed to be socialist and
has been able to match the US in terms of creativity, prosperity, or standards
of living.2:05 p.m. Jan. 30, 2014========== Germany, Japan, UK, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, Israel, Korea, Canada,
...shall I continue?
Marxist,Carefully read the biblical scripture you quote, you will see that
the wealthy FREELY and of THEIR own choice helped the poor. Their wealth was
not forcibly removed from them by the apostles for redistribution. your
comparison of the feds to the ancient apostles is offensive and misguided.William,you cannot have it both ways, you say the current version
of communism in NK is a success, the dictatorship is not a failure, then you say
it will fail miserably. Which is it, a success or a failure? I asked for an
objective measure; one man's ability to maintain a stranglehold on power is
not an objective measure. I'm sure BO is envious of the NK dictator's
absolute power. He's said almost as much since he plans to bypass
congress, and he ignores his own signature laws when he learns they are
irreparably flawed.you are correct, the movie was "W", not
GW. But pols have always been known by their initials, FDR, JFK, LBJ, HHH.
usually by all 3. Hollywood's leftist elites shortened bush's to 1
initial, I give BO more respect than hollywood gave bush because I extend his
back out to 2.
Karl Marx and Ayn Rand had much in common. They both hoped for a world where
government would wither away and neither believed superstition or religion would
have anything to do with it. Marx was long gone before any of the aberrations
carried out using his name took place. And he definitely was right about
religion being the opiate of the people.
@ lost in DC Here is what I wrote:“The
marxist-leninist experiment in North Korea lives on and the dictatorship there
is NOT a failure at exercising monopoly power over the people in 2014. When it
does fail, it will be much uglier than when East Germany failed.”Here is how you represent what I wrote: The Marxist-Lenninist
experiment in North Korea lives on... N.Korea a success? by what objective
measure?I also wrote the following in an earlier post today:“You work in the Gulag or you die. The “needs” stuff
is a part of the mirage communism future. You work in North Korea or you die.
You may die anyway of overwork.”@ 2 bits Read the
above. North Korea's “Success” again refers to Kim's
ability to monopolize power and to use it very effectively to maintain his
criminal position of power.Back to lost in DC“as
far as calling him BO is concerned, I'm not the one who gave him those
initials. Are you complaining about the movie studio that made the movie about
bush entitled "GW"?Perhaps I should complain?? I have
absolutely no knowledge about the movie “GW”.
Nothing seems immune to hyperbole these days; everyone is a hater, socialist,
marxist, communist and of course nazi. Not a lot of discussion can come of it.
@one vote:"As to freedom, the de-criminalization of marijuana shows
there is more freedom from arbitrary government control than ever."Do you feel the same way about decriminalization of cocaine?@Mike
Richards:"Obama has no respect for the Constitution."He has little respect for the laws passed by Congress... Such as the federal
immigration laws, and laws against possession and use of marijuana. That's
right... there is a federal law against possession and use of marijuana. Where
is Obama's AG when you need him? Hiding under his desk, probably. "He ignores it completely. In his State of the Union message, he
'dared' Congress to stop him from using executive orders to do what
ever he thought was proper and necessary."He's relying on
'penumbras and emanations.'@Happy Valley Heretic:
"Speaking of falsehoods, marijuana is not and never has been
"addicting" anymore than chocolate or ice cream."Yeah,
but chocolate and ice cream doesn't make you confused and bewildered.
William Gronberg,If you call having no economy, your people constantly on
the verge of freezing and starvation, and even the middle-class living in
poverty, and having to threaten the Capitalist American's every winter so
they will send you oil to heat your homes to prevent mass deaths...
"Success"... then I guess they are succeeding in North Korea.How many times have we sent NKorea food shipments (to get them to end their
Nuclear Weapons program). How many times have we sent them heating oil
shipments (to get them to end their Nuclear Weapons program). Many times
during the Bush years I know. And many times before that. I don't know
why they haven't been bugging Obama and threatening him too... I guess
maybe they have a better working relationship with this administration.If capitalist nations weren't such humanitarians... North Korea's
people would starve.Glad I was able to bring some levity to this
otherwise grim discussion. You may want to grammar-check my comment too.
William,The Marxist-Lenninist experiment in North Korea lives on...
N.Korea a success? by what objective measure?perhaps for the
dictator - who can have his own uncle executed. And of course, it does WONDERS
for the people of North Korea. According to ANY reasonable method by which a
government should be measured, especially in North Korea, it is a miserable
failure.But let's revisit how BO's policies so mirror
those of Stalin/Lennin - silence of all political opposition,
certainly one of BO's goal's and his lap-dog media is complicit. Supremecy of the state over individual religious beliefs - BO is second
to no one on that, ie Obamacare. wresting control away from the
individual and entrenching it in the state - BO rules by dictate and bypasses
the people's representatives in the house any time he cannot get them to go
along with him. Then there are the out and out lies BO tells.
plenty of similarities between BO and Uncle Joe. as far as calling
him BO is concerned, I'm not the one who gave him those initials. Are you
complaining about the movie studio that made the movie about bush entitled
To "UtahBlueDevil" so tell us, where does socialism work? Every nation
that has tried it has severe problems economically.Name the nation
that has claimed to be socialist and has been able to match the US in terms of
creativity, prosperity, or standards of living.
@ lost in DC “OK. BO and his Stalinist policies.” The “BO” stuff is on the level of the grammar school
playground.President Obama's “Stalinist policies”
are a delusion and a mirage. Stalinist policies included the man made famine in
the 1930s Ukraine that killed millions. The collectivization of agriculture and
the liquidation of the Kulaks was a major Stalinist policy. Being an ally of
Nazi Germany was a policy of Stalin. There are abuses of power and the
politically motivated IRS auditing would be an abuse of power. Bad, but not a
Stalinist policy.@ 2 bits When you use
“Carl”, are you trying to be facetious (humorous, witty or marked by
levity)? It is Karl.“Carl Marx died, and every Marxist
experiment has died a miserable failure...”. The marxist-leninist
experiment in North Korea lives on and the dictatorship there is NOT a failure
at exercising monopoly power over the people in 2014. When it does fail, it
will be much uglier than when East Germany failed.
"Socialism is the government telling you that you have too much, and that
they are going to redistribute the fruits of your labor to others"No... not at all. Socialism is a way of thinking where all people in society
are interconnected, and that society as a whole decides what issues they will
deal with as a group. If relies on a freely elected government where the
members of society themselves decide what these imperatives are, and that all
are expected to help according to their means. Socialism has absolutely nothing
to do with wealth redistribution. Unfortunately socialism also relies an some
rather idealistic thinking in that all members will behave.Some of
the most socialistic countries also have the least repressive governments. Some
don't even have viable militaries...... they do not rely on coercion
because the nations decisions are voted upon. Unfortunately it does not seem
the model scales very large. It requires direct participation by all. The real world is a blend of capitalism, socialism, democracy, and
republicanism. None of them exist in their pure form or ever should.
Amazing how folks get upset when they are asked to be civil by quit calling
anyone who disagrees with Obama's policies a racist.
To "Roland Kayser" and what did Obama do to change things? Obama and
his policies have been like FDR's policies. They have kept us in a state
of misery and have prevented the recovery from being able to take effect.To "marxist" that isn't socialism, that is charity.
Socialism is the government telling you that you have too much, and that they
are going to redistribute the fruits of your labor to others. Charity is giving
what you can to benefit others. I choose charity over socialism.
@ No One Of Consequence “...Communism, Socialism, Marxism,
Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, Facism and Obamaism.”Definitely
no sophistry in the above. There is one “orange” mixed in with
primarily “apples”.@ Thid Barker 'Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao ste Tung, Castro among others were all
Marxists...”The above scoundrels were Marxists of the Leninist
variety. There are numerous varieties of Marxists. There are even
anti-Leninist Marxists.“(From each according to their ability
and to each according to their needs)”This is the slogan of
Marx's mirage stage of human development that he called
“communism”. Marx's “communism” has NEVER existed
on the planet earth. It allegedly will evolve sometime after all the world has
been purified by the delusional Marxist-Leninists (communists) and their
dictatorships.The slogan that applies correctly to Stalin and
friends is thus:“From each according to their ability and to
each according to their WORK”.You work in the Gulag or you
die. The “needs” stuff is a part of the mirage communism future.
You work in North Korea or you die. You may die anyway of overwork.
Thid Barker said:Go talk to any drug addiction counselor about what got
addicts addicted. I said Marijuana wasn't addicting, you want to
argue gateway which is nonsense.and I repeat...I don't
understand the rights obsession with controlling peoples personal lives while
crying for less regulation on businesses.
I think Orwell's definition of Communism in Animal Farm applies fairly well
to the current Administration in Washington : " All animals are equal but
some animals are more equal than others"
Amazing how folks get upset when they are asked to be civil. Rationalizing,
twisting like a pretzel to point out some on the other side as justification to
refuse to be rational, logical, pragmatic, and civil. Folks, Obama
is not a commie, a socialist, a dictator, etc. Please, get a grip.
And BTW, socialism has been around a long, long time:Acts
4:34-35New American Standard Bible (NASB)34 For there was not a
needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell
them and bring the [a]proceeds of the sales 35 and lay them at the
apostles’ feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.
Re: 2 bits "How long has Capitalism been around (not just in the United
States but everywhere)??? 200 - 300 years, before that mercantilism,
before that feudalism, before that various traditional forms.
My friends in socialist Germany would laugh at the labels conservatives in
America use to brand their enemies. They know something about Communism, having
opposed it for over four decades. Frankly, they think their brand of socialism
gives them a lot more freedom than we Americans have. And their economy is the
envy of most countries. They are keeping the EU afloat pretty much by
themselves. They have their problems, but they'd never trade straight
across for ours.
RE: "But in his view capitalism though a natural stage in human development
would die"... (marxist)...And yet... Carl Marx died, and every
Marxist experiment has died a miserable failure, and Capitalism lives on, and
on, and on... How long has Capitalism been around (not just in the United
States but everywhere)???And it's not dead yet.Many
Marxists HOPPED it would be dead after the 2009 stock market correction, but
alas, it didn't. And it's healthy and doing fine again (much to the
dismay of Marxists and the occupy wallstreet people).====If Marx was right, and capitalism was a temporary natural stage in human
development that would die... when is it going to die? He's been dead
for a long time, and yet it's pretty strong.Capitalism needs
corrections from time to time, but that doesn't mean it dies. Marxism has died EVERY time, and in not much time, and in VERY ugly and often
bloody failure. What did Carl Marx have to say about that?
Re: No One of Consequence "...Communism, Socialism, Marxism, Leninism,
Stalinism, Maoism, Facism and Obamaism have defined the terms for their own
convenience or we can consider the commonality between them all: The common
man/woman is incapable of running their own lives and so must be controlled,
supported, directed, sanctioned and managed by those who are "wiser" and
"more suited" to rule."That was not Marx's point at
all. Marx sought to "lay bare" the process of capital accumulation in
capitalism and labor's role in that accumulation. He did not deride labor
or accuse them of being "incapable of running their own lives." But he
did document quite well how the system, in this case capitalism, is all
powerful, that it dictates behavior, that the process of buying and selling
people (wage labor) drives out all other forms of human interaction. Marx
appreciated the accomplishments of capitalism including its innovation. But in
his view capitalism though a natural stage in human development would die. Is
that not what we are seeing? The distributions of wealth and income are
becoming fantastically top heavy - this is late stage capitalism. Get to know
RE: "Bitter labelers unite" (one vote).Would that be like
labeling me "racist" (IF I disagree with Obama)? Or an "AM radio
listener"? Or a "Right-wing nut"? Hmmm?Would it be
like Esquire calling it "McCarthyism" and "Red Baiting"?"Communism" is NOT a dirty word. Neither is
"Socialism". We can say them without getting scolded. And we can face
them for what they are in our discussions. And we can want to avoid them IF we
want.===Happy Valley Heretic,If marijuana is no
more additive than chocolate ice cream... why do so many marijuana users go on
to try harder drugs (and get addicted)... and not many ice cream users go on to
try hard drugs?Studies show that a HUGE percentage of marijuana
users eventually try harder drugs. I don't think that relationship exists
with ice cream. Obesity... maybe. But still, it's apples-to-oranges.
William is right. It's more "Socialism" than "Communism".
And it's not even real "Socialism".But still... is the
drift this direction the drift we WANT to take?===I like
to help my neighbors just like everybody else, but I don't like the
Government doing it for me, or forcing me to do it.I also don't
like the ever increasing regulation we are getting from our government (which
originally was founded on the principle that the PEOPLE should have as much
liberty as possible, and that America's representative democracy, that
"government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish
from the earth."We kill that when well meaning people in the
government turn on the people and start regulating them to the nth degree. We need to start a drift back towards the kind of government described
in the Gettysburg Address, the Constitution, the Declaration of IN-dependence,
and the Bill of Rights.Just my opinion though...
William,you'd rather we said BO and his Stalinist policies? OK. BO
and his Stalinist policies.Roland,those "loans" you
say revived the economy? those were approved during the bush administration.
thanks for recognizing what bush and paulson did to stabilize the economy. Too
bad BO's Stalinist policies slowed the recovery.micawber,glad you can still worship as you wish - too bad small business owners who
oppose gay marriage and employers who have religious prohibitions to abortion
and birth control can no longer follow their faiths without BO and courts
penalizing them.Esquire,why are your calls for constructive
dialogue only directed at the right? do you not see what the left spews? When
huffingtonpost commenters were calling for the death of bush advisors? when BO
himself uses every speach he gives to excoriate his political opponents? When
one vote calls those with whom he disagrees "bitter labelers"?HVHSimply repeating falsehoods won't make them so.What you
said is correct, but BO's constant repeat of falsehoods sure has a lot of
people fooled. CDC says marijuana is 3 X as carcinogenic as
tobacco. Of course, truth has never gotten in the way of liberal thinking
" The common man/woman is incapable of running their own lives and so must
be controlled, supported, directed, sanctioned and managed by those who are
"wiser" and "more suited" to rule."This is a
joke... right? The common man is capable of securing this country against
terrorist? The common man can provide emergency services for himself... right?
The common man should be expected to be able to regulate his own neighborhood,
ensure safe industry is co-located within. The common man is reasonably
expected to educate his own enough to compete on a global employment stage.
The common man should be able to ensure fair trade practices occur between
counties for his or her services or product. The common man should be able to
negotiate with food suppliers that the supply chain for food is safe. We could go on for ever. If the author of that quote really believes
they are capable of managing all those aspects of their lives on their own
behalf, congratulations. Every aspect of our lives is interconnected to a
thousand other points of influence. Communications, trade, financial
services.... you think that system could operate without regulation or
governmental controls....? Wow!
micawber and HVH: You must have a much different concept of freedom than I do.
If it comes down to reading the books you want to, you can go on in your small
sense of well-being. However I have seen and felt the oppressive hand of
government in several instances. I'll give you just one.My
sister, a San Diego resident, volunteered to work in Colorado on the Mitt Romney
campaign. She and a busload of like-minded people made the long journey and
spent about a week in Colorado. Last year, her tax return was withheld pending
an audit and with no explanation at all. Having an idea why she might have been
singled out, she began to poll those who had been on the bus to/from Colorado
and learned that over 70% of them had the exact same thing happening to them. By
the way, those audits are still pending and those tax returns are still
outstanding. For all I know, nobody at IRS is even looking at those files and it
may be years, if ever, that it gets resolved.Just because you
haven't experienced it doesn't mean it isn't happening.
@ Happy Valley. Marijuana not addictive? Go talk to any drug addiction counselor
about what got addicts addicted. Educate yourself! They are not called
"potheads" for nothing.
"I don't think we really want to go back to the days of McCarthyism and
Red Baiting."Instead we are in the days of IRSism (targeting
conservatives), and race baiting. It is no better. You only think it
is better because you are on the perpetrator side instead of the target side.
Agreed one vote, and mica.I too, do not feel the weight of oppression from
an over reaching government.Attaching the sometimes conflicting
labels to Obama has been a cornerstone of the conservative posters, which shows
they have no idea what the definition of these differing "isms" are but
they know they are bad, so we'll associate them with Obama.Simply repeating falsehoods won't make them so.Speaking of
falsehoods, marijuana is not and never has been "addicting" anymore than
chocolate or ice cream.(But the truth and facts have never gotten in the
way of conservative thinking.)It's called freedom because you choose
for yourself. I don't understand the rights obsession with
controlling peoples personal lives while crying for less regulation on
@no on of and thidLike it or not the letter writer s correct Karl
Marx did indeed coin the term communism and the definition iis exsactly as he
states. The sopistiry comes from people like Mao and Stalin that attempted to
justify their fascist activities by claiming they were communist and only trying
to gain power for the people. Claiming any of those people are communist is like
Russia claiming they are now a free capitalist society.
I don't think we really want to go back to the days of McCarthyism and Red
Baiting. Even hinting at our leaders, or those with contrary views, as being
Marxists and Communists is wrong, extreme, and contrary to our American values
going back to the Founding Fathers. Yesterday, on the pages of this website, I
was called a communist by a far right wing commenter because I expressed my view
that government had a constructive role in our lives. The far right loves
attacking with extreme labels, which is wrong and toxic to public discourse.
Tone down the rhetoric. Talk issues, not generalities and labels in order to
suppress dialogue. Folks can disagree, but there is no need to overreact.
If we compare Obama's vision of America with the vision of the Founding
Fathers, we can clearly see that Obama's vision is very similar to King
George's vision. King George saw the colonies as profit centers for
England. He saw the people as his subjects. He saw an opportunity to exploit
the colonies, just as England had exploit "colonies" all over the world.
Obama has no respect for the Constitution. He ignores it
completely. In his State of the Union message, he "dared" Congress to
stop him from using executive orders to do what ever he thought was proper and
necessary. He does not believe that he is prohibited from legislating.
That's what an executive order is; it is legislation.Instead of
quibbling about the word, "Communism", why not focus on the words,
"Freedom", "Liberty", "Constitutional"?Can
anyone tell us that Obama, the Constitutional Scholar, limits his actions to
those duties authorized in Article II?
one vote. Being addicted to marijuana is not freedom. Its the worst kind of
slavery there is. Go visit an addiction recovery center for more information.
Bitter labelers unite. As to freedom, the de-criminalization of marijuana shows
there is more freedom from arbitrary government control than ever.
@No One of Consequence:I feel just as free now as a did a decade or three
decades ago. I continue to work, spend time with my family, and worship as I
always have. I read widely and without censorship. I can (and sometimes do)
disagree with the President without fear of repercussion. Words like
"Communist" or "socialist" do not illuminate public discourse,
especially when they are misused. You obviously don't like President Obama,
but he is no Communist.
to William Gronberg -- well said. You are very right in your comment.
Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao ste Tung, Castro among others were all Marxists (From each
according to their ability and to each according to their needs) but as history
has shown us, millions of innocent people were murdered by Marxists dictators
enforcing Marxism's collectivism or communism. Because free people will not
be forced to work for that which they will not receive so other may receive what
they did not work for. That's called slavery! I may choose to give to
someone according to their needs but being forced to do so is evil.
When Obama was inaugurated, the economy was in free-fall. In fact it was
declining faster than it did at any point during the great depression. There
were voices who were calling on the president to nationalize both the banking
industry and the auto industry. Had he actually been a communist that is
precisely what he would have done. Instead he gave them both loans and let them
pay them back, which they have done for the most part, leaving them under
totally private ownership today.No communist worth his salt would
have allowed such a golden opportunity to slip through his fingers. No, the
president is fairly ordinary Democratic politician, his policies no more
communist than Harry Truman or JFK.
Thank you William for your example of sophistry, which is defined in the World
English Dictionary as "a method of argument that is seemingly plausible
though actually invalid and misleading".We can split hairs about
how the proponents of Communism, Socialism, Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism,
Maoism, Facism and Obamaism have defined the terms for their own convenience or
we can consider the commonality between them all: The common man/woman is
incapable of running their own lives and so must be controlled, supported,
directed, sanctioned and managed by those who are "wiser" and "more
suited" to rule.Because, after all, freedom is far too precious
a commodity to allow just anyone to have it.