Quite a conundrum that trinitarians have gotten themselves wound into,
isn't it? Glad I don't have to rack my brain trying to figure out any
of these paradoxes.
To Michigander and Sharrona,I have noticed that your comments are
ignored by some, as I would suggest these are just Mormons that do so. Why ?
Because they see through your comments the nature of your understanding about
Mormonism is thin to some point, and they consider it hopeless to explain their
opinion to You.God having the "all-foreknowledge" is
accepted with Mormons, but the assumption that this knowldege is sufficient to
deny our existence in other lives is not.We may call it faith, but
what happens her is that a member of the LDS church gets logic in here, where
others seem to rest on fairly interpretations of scriptures.Mormons make
sure by personal answer through the Holy Ghost, then everything else makes
sense.It is kind of a discovery of spaces of faith added to our logic.If you could take away the BM and BOA etc. they would still believe what
most Christians do, that statements about the foreknowing of the prophets is
foreknowledge alone.Read D&C 138, it is either truth or not.
There is nothing then to ignore anymore.
RE: How is it possible for God to weep? i.e... The Holy Ghost/Spirit(same Greek
word) is grieved (has emotions) (Isa 63:10,Eph 4:30). The Holy Ghost is God
(Acts 5:3-4).RE: Sego Lilly, God created man in His own image (both
man and woman) they would resemble God in certain ways, to reflect God's,
spiritual, intelligent, communicative, relational, moral and purposeful
capacities. The Hebrew root of the Latin phrase for image of
God—imago Dei—means image, shadow or likeness of God. 1 Tim
6:16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no
one has seen or can see.(God the Father)RE: Stay the Course,
Christians believe that God is omniscient, knowing everything about each person
before birth. The emphasis is on God’s foreknowledge (“I knew
thee”), not humanity’s knowing God.In Job 38:4, God rebukes
Job, “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?” Job 38:7 NIV …” and all the angels(sons)shouted for
joy”.” In effect, God was reminding Job how Job wasn’t even in
existence when the world was created.
If according to the scholars that Heavenly Father doesn't have a body than
how on earth could he make man in his own image? Would we be blobs of
unorganized matter? Heavenly Father has a body such as ours - therefore has the
same emotions that we have.
MichiganderNo I disagree the verse in Jeremiah has everything to do with
the correct doctrine of the preexistence
LittleDrummerMan,How could He [God] have known Jeremiah before he
was formed in the belly?Through the foreknowledge of God who sees
and knows all things into the infinite future, including Jeremiah's birth
and prophetic calling.It has nothing at all to do with the false
doctrine of preexistence of men and women.
Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee." How could
He have known Jeremiah before he was formed in the belly if he didn't
exist? We all lived before this life.
I'm not saying God doesn't exist I'm simply stating that due to
his obvious lack of attention to many of the simple things that could be
addressed He doesn't have any emotion. The crux of the story.
Twin Lights,There has always been and will always be TWO Eternal
Personages - The Father [JEHOVAH] and the Son [Jesus Christ], BUT ONE Eternal
God. The Father and the Son are ONE because they have the exact same mind which
is the Holy Ghost (exact same as the Holy Spirit), the mind of the Father and
the Son per 1st Cor.2:10-16 and Philip.2:5.
Michigander,You do realize that Christ's statement was to
declare himself as Jehovah, right?
RE: The Caravan Moves, as a perfect being will never lessen himself?(Kenosis)Phil 2:5-9. Verse 8, being found in fashion as a man, he humbled
himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.Attributes of God(short list): Love, Omnipresence, wrath. What’s wrong with equating “God is love” (ho theos agape
estin) with “Love is God,”If ‘Love is God,’ then
all that is done in ‘love. This reasoning means that right and wrong are
now justified by personal motives, not by biblical standards. If I have the
right motive, I can break any command I want, as long as I do it in love!(John 4:24).God [is] spirit. ( *pneuma hο theos). There is
‘*no article’ in the Greek before the word spirit, and that
emphasizes the essence of the word, the word spirit occurs first in the sentence
for emphasis, would be like, “Absolutely spirit in His essence is
God.” Jesus did not leave any doubt about this truth. God(The Father)=
spirit"the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16). For the wrath of
God is revealed from heaven" (Rom. 1:18).
eastcoastcoug,"'How do you know for sure we weren't
all there??"Because the KJV Bible states the following in John
8:58: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham
was, I AM."If men and women preexisted, Jesus would have said:
Before Abraham was WE WERE.Only Jesus Christ preexisted. No one else
but Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father [JEHOVAH].Also,
1st Cor.15:46 states: "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but
that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." Adam was
created first flesh and bones and then his soul was created in him by the Lord.
No preexistence of the spirits of men and women.Finally, Zechariah
12:1 states that the Lord "formeth the spirit of man within him." The
souls of all men and women were created or "formed" in the wombs of
their mothers at conception, Jesus Christ and Adam being the only exceptions.
This further confirms the conclusion that god was created in the image of man
and the Bible is purely an invention of Homo sapiens sapiens.While
it's true that a person committed to and invested in the belief that the
Bible is the word of a god and reliable history, why is it that virtually nobody
converts from Unbelief to Belief based on the conclusions of serious, honest,
critical study of the Bible? Compared to those who enter belief either thru
childhood inculcation or else while still pretty profoundly ignorant of the
Bible itself, the numbers appear vanishingly small.
In my opinion this article supports the view that "God" is nothing more
than a projection of an idealized human nature. From this view, man created God
in his own image. Sometimes God is violent and focused on retribution and
punishment. Sometimes God is compassionate, kind, and loving. Evolutionary
psychologists understand that humans are well positioned to take whichever
approach best serves their own interests or the interests of the group to which
they belong. God also displays this flexibility, and more tellingly, believing
in Him allows human beings to justify violence and extol virtue selectively, as
serves their own current purposes.
All the different opinions and interpretations of the different posts here just
goes to show that no one knows. It is all subject to ones imagination and
determined by what one wishes it to be. And this is what the world wars over:
man's silly superstitious attraction for religion and soothsayers venality
to exploit it. Good luck.
@Dennis -- You're attitude is not uncommon. Sam Harris famously uses the
same argument as the crux of his Atheist Manifesto. But in that attitude there
is a presumption as to what God's purposes are with this whole mortal
existence. Atheists roundly dismiss "believers", in their feebleness or
ignorance, for inventing Diety to suit any number of purposes, yet will easily
fall to the logic of "If God exists, he would do thus and thus -- He
doesn't do thus and thus -- therefore, He doesn't exist" (or even
if he DOES exist, I don't want to have anything to do with him).Let's assume God stepped in to prevent all murders and other heinous
crimes, and this was the norm throughout our mortal existence. I'm guessing
that Sam Harris would likely have cited that because an old lady is allowed to
fall and break her hip, or that a young boy is killed after riding his bike into
traffic, is sufficient evidence that God does not exist or at least that God is
@Michigander,"If man and woman preexisted then it would have
read "all the sons and daughters of God" shouting for joy."Only in the last few decades of the 20th Century have we begun to specifically
call out "men and women" or "sons and daughters" when referring
to all people of both genders. "Sons" is a term in many languages as
well as in Middle English meaning both men and women. How do you
know for sure we weren't all there??Why do people that die and
come back tell us that they had a feeling of "returning home"?
A couple of my favorite examples that demonstrate the depth of God's
(Christ's) emotion -- his caring for our well-being and his sorrow for
those who refuse his sacrifice:Isaiah 9-10 (2 Nephi 19-20) "...
but his hand is stretched out still."Matt. 23:37, 3 Nephi
10:4-6, D&C 43:24 "O, ye nations of the earth (or Jerusalem or Israel,
etc.), how often would I have gathered you together as a hen gathereth her
chickens under her wings, but ye would not!"
The though of Heavenly Father possessing love and concern in the same (or at
least a similar) sense to us seems essential to the purpose and concept of
mortal and eternal life. If God is indifferent to us, what is there to gain in
worshipping Him? What joy is heaven and what misery is hell but arbitrary
rewards or punishments otherwise?And if God has no body, for what
purpose was Jesus Christ resurrected in one? Does Jesus have a body, and not
Heavenly Father? Or if God is but a single entity, did He resurrect himself
only to shed His resurrected body at some point and without mention?
@ sharrona - layton, UT "RE: 1.96 Standard Deviations, … no one can
see me and live. (Ex 33: 18-20)… The LORD often appeared, but not in His
full shekinah glory. Gen. 17:1."Nonsense.What
you're saying, in essence, is that God "dumbed himself down". Such
a think is beneath God. He knows who he is and as a perfect being will never
lessen himself.As far as your attempted refutation of my statement
regarding "God is love", you have missed the mark entirely. God IS full
of love, which is what the New Testament scripture I was referring to means. I
simply said it is utter nonsense to say that God is without passion and yet also
claim to believe the Bible, which clearly says that God loves all of us.
If God had any emotions whatsoever how could he allow the atrocities that happen
day to day around the universe to his children? Young, old, male, female.
Starving children, homeless families freezing in the streets, etc. etc. This
isn't a case of "agency" it's a case of neglect and apathy
towards humanity. I choose not to worship such a God.
RE: 1.96 Standard Deviations, … no one can see me and live. (Ex 33:
18-20)… The LORD often appeared, but not in His full shekinah glory. Gen.
17:1. (Jacob): for I have seen God face to face, and my life is
preserved." (Genesis 32:30); Jacob struggled with the Angel and prevailed;
Hosea 12:3-4. … the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a
man speaketh unto his friend" (Exodus 33:11) … he (Moses)endured, as
seeing him who is invisible (Heb 11:27) --- "… Jesus
standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7:55); "Hebrew Idiom." a
figure of speech like, "he's my right hand man." In the Hebrew this
idiom denotes power and strength. J S, Lectures on Faith, Q. What is
the Father? A. He is a personage of glory and of power. (5:2.). What is the son?
First, he is a personage of tabernacle.RE: The Caravan Moves on,
“God is Love”, 1John 4:16 ho theos agape estin can only mean
"God is love," not "love is God" as Christian scientist would
confusedly say. Or,,John 4:24 pneuma ho theos can only mean "God is
spirit," not "spirit is God."
It absolutely inconceivable for any rational, well-read/well-studied Biblican
student and disciple of Jesus Christ to claim that God is, like many of them
claim in their religious creed(s), a being "without....passion" when the
Bible so clearly testifies, and I quote, that "God is love".Love is an emotion. As a matter of fact, love is THE crowning emotion. It is
the emotion which trumps all others. Without love, can anything truly be
worthwhile or have any value?No.So to claim that one
believes the Bible and yet also claims that God is devoid of passion is beyond
contradictory.I literally thank God that I know better.To those of any faith or religion or creed or nationality.....if you believe
that God is a loving, personal, caring being, you are my friend.
Michigander, the scriptures explain to us what first (sons and daughters were to
be understood by)and second (that an angel of god was a spirit son also).There is no assumption for this one : That by him, and
through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants
thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.And this we saw
also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence
of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who
was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the
Son (DC 76) For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which
I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the
earth...And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a
man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them.(Moses 3 )
1.96 standard deviations,Job 38:7 refers to the pre-mortal existence
and "all the sons of God shouting for joy."These "sons
of God" were the holy angels and not pre-mortal men.If man and
woman preexisted then it would have read "all the sons and daughters of
God" shouting for joy.Only Jesus Christ preexisted.Also, the resurrected Christ wept twice in 3rd Nephi 17:21-22 when visiting
Hoping I am allowed to make mention of another scripture such as this one in
plural : Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences
that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of
the noble and great ones (Abraham 3)We are not confined to a
limited view about who we were when it comes to the scriptures.They must
be read in comparison to each other, the one not less important to the other.To sum it up again, I was never without emotions no matter what time you would
place me back then. We can claim that God having a body may express emotions,
but this is not necessary, since emotions come from the individual as having
existed before the "pre-existence" and before "earth-life". Why
would we then have these scriptures, if that was not to be true ? I am not
making up a new religion here, it is all what we got from Joseph Smith, Paul and
Isaiah and and and.We talk little about it, since we run a test here
on earth, but good things to ponder about. After all it is about us.
Great article, as usual, brother Peterson. Thank you.
desert,Sadness is not confined to physical expressions, it is not confined
to spiritual expressions,it must have some center of origin, say may be
within the "heart" or as we learn intelligences where not made neither
could be ?A close reading of Doctrine and Covenants 93:29 tells us
"intelligence" was not created or made, neither indeed can be. It is
singular not plural.
KTC John:To piggy back on your comment, Job 38 refers to the
pre-mortal existence and the Sons of God shouting for "joy." Apparently
some degree of emotion was experienced before we took on a "tabernacle of
clay." D&C 93:33 clarifies that spirit and element, inseparably
connected, can receive a fulness of joy.Also, Ether 3 has an account
about the spirit body of Christ and involves Him touching stones. Apparently
spirit bodies have some sort of substance to them that allow them to touch
tones. Additionally, the spirit "substance", if you will, is such that
it can still dwell within us according to D&C 130:22.Interesting
If Joseph Smith is correct, even a spirit personage is composed of matter.
Thus, there is a "body" so to speak whether the personage is in a
pre-mortal, mortal, or post-mortal condition. Consequently, there is a
"body"---- a personage of spirit in a confined image, capable of
experiencing emotions regardless of the stage of existence.
Another excellent article! One reason I embraced my religion is that I believe
that God defined Himself very well in the scriptures (the verses Dr. Peterson
used are excellent examples) and not man struggling to define their God.
Of course, I believe that Jesus could feel emotions before he was born, and I
also believe that we can feel them after we die; in both cases, without a body.
This article looks like being a little ahead of what is up next Sunday
School.That is a wonderful thing to do.However, it cannot be
true that the body of a person is reasonable evidence of emotions alone.Our devine origin is more than just having a body of flesh and bone,we are God's offspring in so many other ways that could reflect
emotions.Sadness is not confined to physical expressions, it is not
confined to spiritual expressions,it must have some center of origin, say
may be within the "heart" or as we learn intelligences where not made
neither could be ?Now if we are talking about our devine home, here
in the open regardless to what others believe, we should include what we have in
the scripture, such as : Enoch having seen God being sad, was not on earth
for that experience, neither was the Lord a resurrected being at that time. You
could argue it was Heavenly Father being sad, but then again would deny the Lord
having emotions before his ministry on earth.Just saying, the Prof
has a nice saying, but should not be afraid to bring out the real issue.
Any one with a brain the emotion is the first to get information. But Christ
gave us a good idea. What we do with it is up to us.