Comments about ‘In our opinion: A good Chicago gun ruling’

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Published: Tuesday, Jan. 28 2014 12:00 a.m. MST

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Schnee
Salt Lake City, UT

Chicago's gun crime rates were lower in 2013 than 2012 (over 500 homicides that year), but that detail would just be inconvenient when criticizing Chicago's strengthened gun laws.

Thid Barker
Victor, ID

All you need to know about gun control laws is that cops carry guns to protect themselves, not you!

airnaut
Everett, 00

Don't sing too loudly --

Utah and Chicago have almost equal populations,
and Utah doesn't fair much better than "violent" Chicago.

gun deaths
------------
Chicago = 372
Utah = 309

The sad fact is, half of Utah is LDS.

Mike Richards
South Jordan, Utah

We have two choices in America. We can believe that most people are criminals and that they require restrictions to protect them from each other or we can believe that most people are good and noble and that they are fully capable of living honest upright lives.

Who in Chicago is using firearms to commit murder? Is it the honest, law abiding citizens who purchased firearms from gun stores using their true identity? Or, is it criminals who have obtained those firearms illegally, who file off the serial numbers so that the firearms are hard to trace, who disobey any law that restricts them?

Chicago is noted for more than just its high murder rate. It is the home of the "insurance" industry where shop owners either buy "protection" and "insurance" or have buildings burned and bones broken. It's justice system is known to be corrupt.

The 2nd Amendment protects us from a corrupt government that would oppress us. Ask George Washington why he insisted that American Citizens be guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms. It wasn't for duck hunting.

george of the jungle
goshen, UT

I would prefer not to ever have to think about protecting my self. But the odds are, someone is in the fantasie world living in their own realm, thinking that they need my stuff more than me. Sounds like an elected person. Somebody that thinks I don't matter as much as them.

JayTee
Sandy, UT

Good article. Anyone who knows anything about real criminals knows that (a) they will get the means to destruction if that's their purpose, and (b) they couldn't care less about any laws passed by society. They will continue to do what they do, and more/stricter laws only leave would-be victims at their mercy.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

airnaut,

According to Wikipedia... Chicago (one city) had 515 homicides in 2012, and 416 in 2013.

Evidently not all homicides are committed with guns. So doing away with guns will not do away with homicides. But it does insure that Chicago residents will have the means to defend themselves from the other myriad of methods of committing robbery and homicide.

===

I found the Utah Department of Health website that gave the 330 gun death statistic for 2012 in Utah. One thing you conveniently left out (right after that number), and this is a quote, "The majority of firearm-related deaths in Utah are the result of suicide".

I suspect the number you got for Chicago was the number of homicides (not suicides). Which would make it an apples to oranges comparison.

Gun control will not end suicide. A person wanting to commit suicide will use pills or some other method.

Gun control won't eliminate violent crime, robberies, or homicides (based on the number of homicides currently committed without a gun each year). It just insures the law abiding will be completely unarmed.

Gun control for city folks may be a good idea. But not for the whole nation.

OHBU
Columbus, OH

A major thing left out of the argument that "bad guys don't care about the laws, and the good guys aren't the ones cause crime" is the fact that most guns used by the "bad guys" are stolen from the "good guys." The vast majority of guns on the black market are lifted in auto or home thefts. The more "good guys" you allow to have guns, the more "bad guys" are able to get their hands on them. The ones in Chicago have been found largely to come from nearby Indiana where the gun laws are significantly weaker and gun theft is a major issue.

Advocates have also been unable to demonstrate that having a gun in the home makes you safer. Quite the opposite has emerged time and time again, that having a gun in the home increases the likelihood you will die by a gun. That could be suicide. Suicide attempts with a gun are far more "successful" statistically. It could also be the fact that most people think they're Rambo, but in the heat of the moment, most freeze up (even soldiers at the end of basic training).

DN Subscriber
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Congratulations to the editorial writer for finally getting it.

Gun control simply does not work. Don't take my word for it, see what the Center for Disease Control study showed: Basically NO gun control laws have been proven to reduce violent crime.

Then, compare the facts that the violent cesspools which have the strictest gun control laws blame their problem on just not having quite enough gun control. Meanwhile, they attack surrounding areas with relatively few gun control laws and very low crime rates. If their logic was valid, the "weak" gun control areas should have massive violent crime problems, but it simply is NOT the case at all.

It's not the guns, it's the criminals!

As John Lott's studies showed nearly 20 years ago "More guns [in the hands of law abiding citizens], less crime."

kiddsport
Fairview, UT

Struck by 2 Bits' comments, I did some research of my own and was amazed that western states were higher in suicides than eastern states but eastern states had higher murder rates. My comparative analysis of the ratio of murder to suicide per 100,000 population showed Illinois third highest and Utah was #47. It seems Westerners generally prefer harm to themselves rather than to others.
@OHBU
Advocates are unable to use vast statistics to convince the uninformed, but facts are never an impediment to a closed mind.

Anti Bush-Obama
Chihuahua, 00

Airnaut/ldsliberal

Homicides and Suicides are totally different things. Comparing apples to oranges.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

If the residents of Chicago want more restrictive gun laws in Chicago... that's great. But no NATIONAL law should be passed to infringe nationwide.

National law makers in Washington just can't know everything that's going on in every State. The issues in rural Utah may be very different from the issues in urban Chicago. So people in Washington (who may not know Utah exists, or what our problems are) passing "one-size fits all" type legislation for all cities in the nation... is not the correct approach (IMO).

Gang-bangers and drug-dealers in Chicago may abuse weapons (along with other things). That doesn't mean EVERYBODY is going to abuse their 2nd amendment rights.

Don't infringe on everybody, just because people in Chicago can't control their own crime problems!

And a Washington beurocrat can't really legislate away the rash of school shootings we've had. We all need to make sure people in our family who are unstable... don't have access to guns (legal or not).

Docgmt
louisa, VA

Schnee
Salt Lake City, UT
Chicago's gun crime rates were lower in 2013 than 2012 (over 500 homicides that year), but that detail would just be inconvenient when criticizing Chicago's strengthened gun laws.

Did you happen to notice that SCOTUS ruled that the citizens of Chicago have a basic human right to own guns and keep them in their homes and since that time, you are right, the murder rate is dropping due to the large increase in gun ownership. Now the citizens fear the criminals more than their dictatorial government.

airnaut
Everett, 00

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Anti Bush-Obama
Chihuahua, 00
Airnaut/ldsliberal

Homicides and Suicides are totally different things. Comparing apples to oranges.

11:38 a.m. Jan. 28, 2014

========

Death by Fire-arms is Death by Fire-arms, period.
It's YOU that is splitting hairs and rationalizing to suit your agenda.

FYI - I own fire-arms.
I was also a member of a bonfide Militia (per the COTUS).

And most of the Chicago deaths were eye for an eye, Gang-member vs. Gang-member, retaliation, revenge killings.

Not bad guy vs. good guy -- defend the Constitution Tea-Party heros.

cjb
Bountiful, UT

Chicago should go after criminals who misuse weapons of any kind including guns. Then stop interfering with law abiding people as they own and use guns. With this ruling the criminals will begin to be at risk and crime will go down.

Hutterite
American Fork, UT

Gun control works. It's more than a convenient coincidence that the article totally ignored the fact that Chicago tried to go it alone, and no city is an island, certainly not Chicago. The gun control efforts in the city were a boon to the gun shops in surrounding communities, thereby dooming Chicago's efforts and making skewed articles like this possible. Guns are portable; a nation wide control effort would mitigate this problem.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

Hutterite,

Re: "a nation wide control effort would mitigate this problem"...

So would a nation-wide gestapo, concentration camps, and a national disarmament policy. All things leftist governments throughout history have almost immediately established for their people... to control them (for their own good of course).

cjb
Bountiful, UT

Re Hutterite

You seem to believe that if the order were put out nation wide to collect all guns the criminals would obey. All such an order would do is to make most law abiding people defenseless. Then the problem Chicago now has would be nation wide.

You also seem to forget or purposely ignore history. Murder was a common occurance long before there were guns. Back then it was easy for the strong to have their way with weaker people. Now that guns exist, if a strong man were to break into a single mothers home the intruder is at risk and he knows it. The woman can feel at peace she has a legitimate means to protect herself and her family.

Assuming the woman bothers to learn about and follow the rules of gun safety, her gun will make her and her family safer.

Mike Richards
South Jordan, Utah

Law abiding people need no laws. They know what is right and wrong. Criminals obey no laws. The only thing that they "respect" is punishment. When someone murders someone, why should the murderer ever be released from prison? How can that murderer restore a life? How can that murderer ever replace what he has destroyed? If murderers were kept behind bars for the rest of their lives, they would never murder anyone outside prison.

On another note, one poster told us that all gun related deaths should be lumped into one column on his spreadsheet. I would hate to be his accountant. He would probably list all expenses in the same column. He would pretend that because he couldn't see the difference between homicide and suicide, that nobody else could see the difference. Because he works for the DOD, he would have to lump all military deaths in the same column. Would he put those deaths in the KIA column? Would he puts those deaths in the suicide column? How would he account for the 22 soldiers who commit suicide every day?

Hutterite
American Fork, UT

2 bits...thanks for offering, but I think we're good with just a little gun control.
cjb...I didn't say all the guns, did I? I'm a gun owner, too, and I want to keep them. I'm thinking a few easy steps, background checks, waiting periods, maybe get rid of assault weapons. Similar to those ideas successful in Australia or the UK or Canada. Your fear of a dystopic future is preventing us from dealing with a dystopic present.

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