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Published: Wednesday, Jan. 15 2014 12:00 a.m. MST

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Darrel
Eagle Mountain, UT

@2bits

That's a good point. I don't care if you buy a car on Sunday. But should I be required to WORK on Sunday so you can buy a car on Sunday?

I think that is the reason for it. Not just to prevent you from buying a car on Sunday (or to force you to comply to a moral code).

================================

Why not let the free market decide that? If everyone decided to not buy a car on Sunday, the dealerships would not open. If the demand was there, shouldn't supply be allowed to match demand?

Isn't less government better?

Noodlekaboodle
Poplar Grove, UT

@2Bits
Maybe you aren't aware of why that law is in place. It's because a car dealer who owned the Utah Jazz is LDS and didn't want to work on Sunday. I'm 100% ok with that, but instead of just closing his dealers on Sunday, and letting other businessmen make their own decisions, he forced his morals onto everyone in the state, and lobbied successfully to mandate that dealers could only be open one of two weekend days, essentially forcing all dealers to close on Sunday. If you don't want to work on Sunday's that is your right, but why is it one persons right to force all competing business's to conform to their morals? If you don't want to work on Sunday, get a job where you don't have to. I mean honestly if we were fair to all 3 major religions, we wouldn't make anyone work on Friday(muslims) Saturday(jews) or Sunday(christians) or we could just let them worship their day, and let the rest of us work or purchase on whatever day we feel like.

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@joe5 – “Tyler D: "(hint: unless you’re God, you don’t, period.)" demonstrates a pretty closed mind. It implies that because YOU haven't had spiritual confirmations, nobody can.

That’s a fair point but it wasn’t the one I was making…

My point was about knowing you have the RIGHT religion or more to the point, since this is what many believe, that you have the right story and everyone else does not.

In the context of what happens after we die, there is no objective way of knowing whether the Mormon story is correct or the Hindu story is or some other religion is (assuming the stories are mutually exclusive) or none of them are.

That was my point…

Now whether those “spiritual confirmations” provide factual knowledge about the objective world is another matter. Personally, I can grant the possibility that spiritual feelings might lead to subjective truths, but not that these feelings can tell you, for example, that it is an historical fact the Jews once lived in ancient America (with horses and steel swords, no less).

Mister J
Salt Lake City, UT

...the role of religious moral imperatives,... Johnny-come-lately role that emerged only as an addition to our natural instincts for cooperation and empathy. - The Bonobo and the Atheist - Frans De Waal

Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told regardless of what is right. -- Anonymous

People use religion for much, mostly to explain their own shortcomings. Books filled up by foolish people who don't want to take control of their own lives. So, they look for some divine providence to explain their desires.- Deliver us from Evil David Baldacci

GK Willington
Salt Lake City, UT

to 2 bits 9:55 a.m. Jan. 15, 2014

Normal is someone else's definition of whats socially acceptable.

to Tyler D 11:41 a.m. Jan. 15

But, where would organized religion be w/o motivating through fear and/or guilt?

Happy Valley Heretic
Orem, UT

Noodlekaboodle really nailed it. This Auto Dealer believed that his businesses should be closed on sundays because of his religious beliefs and pious appearance. Fantastic for him. However when it came down to it, he was losing money on Sundays to the dealers that were open. By passing such a law it protected his bottom line with crony capitalism, that forced his competition to observe his religious traditions and forcefully remove their ability to profit from a different business model, that provided a service which was determined by the "free market."

spring street
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

@2bits

Here is were your logic falls apart, by state law if I own a car company I cannot sale a car on Sunday, allowing me to make my own decisions about my business is not forcing you to do anything , same with gay marriage no one is doing anything other thnn saying gay people get to make their own choices in life.

Curmudgeon
Salt Lake City, UT

After all is said and done, I still like the apostle James' definition of religion:

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." James 1:27.

All purported religions should measure themselves against this standard.

Neanderthal
Phoenix, AZ

Atheists might be disadvantaged if it turns out they're wrong and there is a God... It's better to believe there is a God and be wrong than to believe there ain't and be wrong.

mark
Salt Lake City, UT

Well, that's interesting Neanderthal.

So by that logic, you believe in Allah. After all it's better to believe Allah is God and be wrong, then to believe he isn't and be wrong. Right? Or Zeus. You believe in Zeus, right? After, by your logic. . . Or Apollo, or any of the other hundreds (or thousands) of gods that have been worshipped. By your logic you must believe in all of them. Because, after all, if you are wrong about the one you choose. . . Well. . . Do you really want to take that chance? And some of those gods are pretty jealous. So good luck.

LDS Liberal
Farmington, UT

The older I get,
the more right "Imagine: by John Lennon" becomes.

joe5
South Jordan, UT

LDS Liberal: Yes, the song "Imagine" (and I might add "From A Distance" by Bette Midler) probably provide a pretty good description of the Telestial Kingdom. To me, that is confirmation that God loves all his children. After all, except for very few who deliberately disqualify themselves, all his children will receive that as a minimum reward.

However, I have higher aspirations.

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@Neanderthal – “Atheists might be disadvantaged if it turns out they're wrong and there is a God... It's better to believe there is a God and be wrong than to believe there ain't and be wrong.”

Maybe the best response to Pascal’s Wager comes from Homer Simpson:

“Suppose we’ve chosen the wrong god and every time we go to church we’re just making him madder and madder.”

Mister J
Salt Lake City, UT

re: Mike Richards

"Religion has the answers. Government begs the question."

Its not black or white, Mike. Neither aforementioned entity is going to solve any/all problems. I feel sorry for those who think either can or will.

re: Open Minded Mormon

"And Mike --
PLEASE stop forcing everyone to live a Mormon lifestyle."

Ironically!? If this were a discussion about comparing political ideologies *force* would be bad.

Wally West
SLC, UT

to joe5 earlier today

What about "Lift me up" by 5 finger death punch?

Mike in Cedar City
Cedar City, Utah

I understand his point of view, but many outrageous and harmful acts have been done in the name of "religion". Strict adherence to religious dogma does not always lead to a just outcome.

I suggest that a religion based moral underpinning is not necessarily an exclusive foundational prerequisite for a moral life. .

cavetroll
SANDY, UT

Re Joe5:
"What you choose to believe or not believe evidently has very little in common with reality and there's nothing I can do about that." My beliefs are very connnected to reality. The LDS church has a greater say in laws in Utah than any other group.
"Your comment completely ignores the point of my post which is that all of us should be able to advocate for their point of view in political discourse." If every group should be able to advocate, why are people upset that the LGBT community is advocating?
"Why are you not up in arms about them?" If the jugde ruled church must perform gay marriages, I would oppose that.
"In fact, I would suggest that organizations that support SSM have had a greater "indirect" effect on laws that the church has." The LGBT community doesn't receive the same attention by our government leaders as the church.
"Pretty lame thought processes in my mind."

RFLASH
Salt Lake City, UT

I am gay. Despite what people think, I also have deep religious beliefs. I believe strongly that all our lives have great importance and God does not intend us to all be the same. Often, people end up using their religious beliefs to harm others! I guess that is why I say that spirituality is not the same as being religious. A person can be very religious and not have a spiritual bone in his body. Being gay does not make a person immoral. So, it isn't always easy to judge what those higher standards should be. People discriminate because of their so called higher values! I think we always need to evaluate ourselves. We need to treat each other better and try to lift people up, not judge and tear them down!

Bloodhound
Provo, UT

Without a belief in God, everything is permissible. Why? Because there is no ultimate moral standard to judge things by. One set of beliefs is as good as another one. Mother Teresa is no better or worse than Hitler. Sorry, atheists and agnostics. But, belief in God does matter and the letter writer made some good points!

mark
Salt Lake City, UT

Bloodhound, you are telling me that you really would not be able to tell the difference between Mother Teresa and Hitler if you did not have religion to tell you? Wow. That is absolutely terribly sad.

I don't know where you get the very flawed idea that without a believe in a god everything is permissible. Your argument that it is because without a higher moral authority anything is permissible is. . . well, is just not well thought through, to be kind.

It is a conceit of the religious to believe that they alone have access to morality, and that without religion morality would not exist.

Many beasts show strong elements of morality with never having any religion. Many beasts take care of their young, some beasts form strong family units, some practice monogamy, some practice charity, and kindness, and loyalty. All of this with never having been babtized, or even ever considering it. Many beasts obviously practice morality.

The difference is, humans have defined it, put a name to it, and some have claimed to know a source for it: religion.

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