To "Irony Guy" that wasn't marxism. That was charity. Marxism is forced redistribution at the hands of government. Charity is
giving what you can to those that need.If you are LDS, look up to
see what various Prophets and Apostles have said regarding collectivism and the
United Order. They are not the same.
2bitsWhere has Marxism worked? Check out 4 Nephi and book of Moses
chapters and 8.
marxist,Since you don't seem to have an answer to the question,
"Where has Marxism worked and brought prosperity to it's people"...
I can give you dozens of examples where Capitalism has worked. I can give you
dozens of recent examples were Capitalism brought peace and prosperity to
it's people. Do you want them?
Re:ThidBaker"unable to choose for yourself!""First, because free agency is a God-given precondition to the purpose of
mortal life, no person or organization can take away our free agency in
mortality.Second, what can be taken away or reduced by the
conditions of mortality is our freedom, the power to act upon our choices. Free
agency is absolute, but in the circumstances of mortality freedom is always
qualified.A loss of freedom reduces the extent to which we can act
upon our choices, but it does not deprive us of our God-given free agency.We have to accept some government limitations on freedom if we who live
in communities are to have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. A
condition of uninhibited individual freedom would allow the strong to oppress
the weak. It would allow the eccentric desires of one person to restrict the
freedom of many.Interferences with our freedom do not deprive us of
our free agency. When Pharaoh put Joseph in prison, he restricted Joseph’s
freedom, but he did not take away his free agency."(Dallin H.
Oaks, "Free Agency and Freedom")
To "marxist" tell us where Marxism works? You think it is so great, and
so wonderful, and there are quite a few nations that feel the same way you
do.The problem is that I don't see anywhere that it has worked.
The nations that practice Marxism fall are 3rd world nations, collapsed
nations, or else have adopted capitalism to fund their collectivist policies.
No matter how you look at it, it has not worked.However, I am
interested in your point of view. Tell us, where has marxism worked?
@2 bits "Many Conservatives have read Marx (this may surprise you). They
just don't agree that it works." That what works? "Capital"
is a critique of capitalism, it's not a blueprint. My reading of Marx is
not exhaustive let me admit, but what I have read leads me to believe that he
was mostly a theoretician, like Smith, Ricardo, or Marshall, and that he
didn't push any scheme of government.Anti-capitalist systems
call themselves Marxist because Marx was and is the major critic of capitalism,
not because they follow a Marxist prescription, because there isn't one.A more to the point response on your part might be "we've read
Marx and we find his explanation of capital accumulation under capitalism
useless and his theories lend no predictability to capitalist development."
I would disagree with that of course. My only request is that Marx be admitted
to the company of neoclassical economists (like advocated by the late great Joan
Robinson of Cambridge). I believe his analysis can be enormously useful as we
evolve our system. I have no precise prescription for what ails us. We will
develop that together.
"Force was and is a principle of the evil one!"I love it
when democratically elected people pass a law, and all of a sudden it is
"forced". Heaven forbid we force people to do good. Forcing should be
left to things like what age your drink, sending your kids to school, those dang
zoning laws that force you to keep you property in alignment with "local
standards". All this government forcing..... in needs to be left to
making my neighbor live how I think they should.... not make society to take
care of its poor and disadvantaged.If it is spending on things like
defense = unforced. Spending on giving corporations incentives to do business
in your area even if it doesn't benefit you directly - unforced. Helping
feed the poor - forced.Love it.
Marx did not believe the communal society would happen by force but by natural
evolution. A pure Marxist doesn't force anything on anyone. Totalitarians
have distorted Marxism, just as they have distorted capitalism (Hitler, Caesar,
"Pope Francis exhorts politicians to guarantee dignified work, education and
health care for the least among us..."That sounds marxist.He's not asking for people to hire, educate and care for the least
among us. That's what Jesus would probably say.The Pope is
asking politicians to guarantee it. Politicians guarantee stuff by forcing us to
do it for them. Then they get to decide whether we're doing it right and
then reward or punish those who do what they want. Haven't we
seen this movie already?
To "marxist" since you are the self proclaimed resident expert on
Marxism. Tell us where it has ever worked? What nation has practiced what he
taught, and has the same standard of living, innovation, and success as the US
or other countries that practice capitalism?I looked up to see what
nations claim Marxism, and they are 3rd world nations, nations that have
collapsed, or have adopted capitalism to boost their economies.I
just don't see where Marxism works. Maybe you can enlighten us.
"Pope Francis is a disciple of Christ."Bingo. Anyone's
free to put him into whatever ideological box one wishes (marxist, whatever).
This is the only one that matters.
marxist,RE : "But the social democrats of the European democracies
also read Marx - and they're reasonably OK, aren't they"?Define "Reasonably OK".===Re: "I repeat:
the conservatives here have never read Marx, nor know anything about
him"...How do you know Conservatives have never read Marx?I'm Conservative to the bone... and I have read Das Kapital, and
The Communist Manifesto, and many commentaries and critiques on his writings and
theories.My grandparents were born and raised in East Germany
(moving to the US in the early 1950s). What I know about it I learned at their
knee telling me their stories and their first hand views on the subject (not
just books).My son said my studying Marx with him and discussing
History at length with him is what lead him to get his Master's Degree in
History.Many Conservatives have read Marx (this may surprise you).
They just don't agree that it works (mainly from observing history). Karl Marx had many good and lofty ideals... but they just don't
work in an imperfect system and imperfect people (which we are). History
proves I'm right.
@ Thid Barker - "One more historical fact. Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Mao ste
Tung and Ho Chi Minh were all Marxists with a military to enforce it!" But
the social democrats of the European democracies also read Marx - and
they're reasonably OK, aren't they? Back to the 4 cited:
Mao and Ho Chi Minh were also fighting nationalist struggles against the
imperialist British (the world's first narco-state) and the imperialist
French. Their militarism was in large part dictated by those struggles. As for
the demonic Stalin, his installation was spirited by the U.S. invasion of Russia
following WW I (yes, it's true).I repeat: the conservatives
here have never read Marx, nor know anything about him.
"Many Conservatives don't believe everything Beck or Limbaugh
say"Ok 2bits. Question. Did congress exempt itself from
Well, I guess if you read the Bible, and see that Jesus taught Marxism -
Then, Yes - I suppose Pope Francis is a Marxist.
To "airnaut" wow, you too. Are you LDS Liberal too?Families
are not "marxist" that is proven by the simple fact that what you earn
cannot be freely spent by your 5 year old. Plus, you and your spouse own your
house, not you and your kids.As for your societies, those were not
marxist, socialist, or communist. They were (gasp) capitalist. According to
modern revelation, for a society to be free it must give allowance for property
rights and private ownership. Those are 2 of the biggest reasons why we know
that communal philosophies are NOT in accordance with God's laws. Not to
mention that all of the collectivist philosophies rely on force to redistribute
One more historical fact. Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Mao ste Tung and Ho Chi Minh
were all Marxists with a military to enforce it!
Open Minded, Re: "That's not what Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and
Sean Hannity tells the Ditto-heads"...If you could embrace this
reality (vs the fog of partisanship stereotypes)... just because Rush or Beck or
anybody on the TV says something... don't just assume that everybody you
lump in with them also thinks that way.Many Conservatives don't
believe everything Beck or Limbaugh say. And I know at least Beck highly
discourages his audience from just believing what he says on the air, and
encourages them to do their own research and form their own opinions.You may want to try that too (instead of just regurgitating the talking points
and what you hear on MSNBC about evil Rush listeners, or Beck listeners, etc).
We are really not all bad.
Pope Francis is a disciple of Christ.
Re. airnautEverett, 00You missed one very important principle
difference between charity, families, City of Enoch, Christianity, Church and
Marxism: FORCE. Force is an evil principle proposed, employed and implemented by
Satan and others throughout history by Marxist/communist governments who force
some to work for nothing so others can receive what they didn't earn, by
force! That's the difference! The very definition of slavery is forcing
someone to work for that which they will not receive so others can receive what
they did not work for and earn! Free agency versus being forced, unable to
choose for yourself! I guess the war in heaven isn't over, is it?
These discussions are difficult because most do not know much about Marx. They
know he wrote the Communist Manifesto - and that is about it. They know nothing
about his contributions to economics. Marx was concerned, as were many others,
with labor's status in the new commercial systems. That was the impetus
for his contributions. He was not a Russian. He was long dead before any
countries "went Communist." He was knowledgeable in virtually all
economic thought extant in his day - including those he admired most - Adam
Smith and David Ricardo. Marx is a legitimate descendant of both of them.
To me the Pope sounds more like Harry Truman than Karl Marx.
@ airnuat. What you don't get is the term FORCE! Families, church and
charitable cooperation are not forced, it's voluntary. Force was and is a
principle of the evil one! As anyone who ever cracked a history book knows,
Marxism always exists only by force! Wise up!
Just because you love for your neighbor, and help carry each other's
burdens... doesn't make you a Marxist.A lot of people who
aren't Marxist do that (on their own, not by government mandate).
It's just fulfilling the law of Christ.
MountanmanHayden, IDI don't know if the Pope is a Marxist or
not; "To each according to their needs and from each according to their
abilities". But I do know that Marxism has never succeeded in history,
because... 8:47 a.m. Jan. 14, 2014=========== Guys like you crack me up.You hate it, yet - you are the
very one's who support it and make it WORK!Communist China
would still be a 3rd world rice patty culture had it not for our Capitalist
friends on Wall Street, and the Corporate Welfare Queens who play our
politicians like fiddles.FYI - Marxism works all the time, It's called "The Family".As for Societies; it
has worked at least 4 times:1. the City of Enoch, 2. Moses and
the Children of Israel, 3. Christians at the time of Jesus, 4.
Nephites/Lamanties at the time of Jesus, and it will work in
the New Jersualem, the City of Zion."To each according to their needs
and from each according to their abilities".
Marxists are all supposed to be atheists. Wouldn't that little fact be hard
for a Catholic priest to cover up - for most of a lifetime?
I think the pope is more of a true doctrinal christian, and that's making a
lot of people uncomfortable.
I don't know if the Pope is a Marxist or not; "To each according to
their needs and from each according to their abilities". But I do know that
Marxism has never succeeded in history, becauseit is always necessary to
enforced with tanks and machine guns. Why? Because people will not be forced
work for that which they will not receive. Because only slaves are forced to
work forthings they will not receive. Marxism is slavery and people will
That's not what Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity tells the
Ditto-heads...====== BTW -- God Bless Pope Francis!
Is Pope Francis a Marxist? With all due respect to the writer, that depends
upon what we mean by the term. I consider myself to be a Marxist because Marx
IMHO developed a theory of capital accumulation and exploitation of labor that
is pretty close to right. Pope Francis is I'm sure familiar with Marx in
that regard. I dare say he appreciates Marx's contribution to economics.
So Pope Francis may well be a Marxist in these terms, but it does not mean the
Pope admires tyrannical states which call themselves "Marxist."
I've read some of the turgid output of the "Institutes of Marxist
Leninism" in the Soviet Union, and they barely knew who Marx was. By my
criteria they were not "Marxists."