Water too pure wont have fish.
Being a sixty-two year old man, who has been married to the same wife for over
36 years, you may feel I don't qualify to give advice. Being the father
of six children though, I have advised them on dating matters.1000 dates
seems a lot. I don't believe I dated more than a dozen girls in my life.
Every one of those girls was someone from a group that I already knew. They
also knew me. Knowing something about them from the groups that we mixed in, I
knew that we had things in common. (I only asked out girls that I found easy to
talk to, and who had similar likes and dislikes.) Much of the "sifting"
was already therefore done. It seems like this young man carries out the
sifting on the first date, and is then surprised that there does not seem to be
any compatability. Does he date with the sole purpose of finding a wife? My
dates were to enjoy a young lady's company, and have a fun time. I learned
from each certain things that I would find attractive in a wife. When I met my
wife, she had them all.
Sounds very much like you are as picky as the LDS women you are dating. Have you
tried looking for a "real" woman and stop chasing these (so called)
Well said, Angela. It is usually more helpful to ask the question, "What are
my expectations, valid or not?" than to ask "Why are others'
expectations so wrong?"Valid expectations might include:1.
Don't criticize me.2. Keep helpful comments positive.3. Be my
friend, preferably my best friend.4. We should have fun times together.5. We should be able to get to know one another better.etc.
Both men and women need to walk a fine line - to want/expect high standards from
those they date but to also be realistic. To understand that your 22 year old
date will not have your father's job or cook like your mom or have the
spiritual maturity of either of them.Don't look for perfect
(that is not available). Look for someone you can grow together with. Someone
who has the basics (testimony, knows how to work, kind).
As the father of a YSA daughter (age 25) who lives in the midwest, the dating
scene is sparse. The branch has about 20 active members, growing to 40 in the
summer. The pickings are slim.There is a wedding or two every year.Having these YSAs in my home I can tell why some of them get no marriage
offers. Personality issues are the biggest barrier, followed by appearance. Some
are just plain immature.Some never made the transition from high school to
BYU to marriage, which lessens their exposure to potential LDS mates.I
wonder what the mission age change will do?Most will of these mating
issues will eventually resolve themselves as people move around the country and
date interesting people.
Right on Angela! I say he would do well to give dating a little break. I am
aware of many "princess" mentality women out there but I also know that
there are some very "down to Earth" women as well. Many years
ago…when I was engaged to my now husband, his friends spent one evening
insisting that they would NEVER let the woman they marry stop wearing make-up.
I assumed they were giving me a form of advice. Obviously they had no idea that
my 'fiancé' had already seen me without make-up because I usually
only wear it on Sunday. In fact, cover-up is almost the grossest stuff I have
EVER put on my face. What I'm trying to point out is, what are your
priorities? Personality or looks?Perhaps the women this particular man is
looking for are exactly what he is getting but he doesn't realize it.
Realistic is good and necessary... but when you see a woman as the princess she
is, or could be, and she sees you as the prince you are, or could be, quite
possibly you've found the one to marry.
Perhaps this young adult would be surprised to learn that many young adult women
have the same frustations with young men in the dating scene. They feel that the
young men are looking for a woman who is perfect in personality, figure, and
beauty, spiritual but fun, positive thinking, educated, but without a single
And the young single adult women would say the same about men their age. They
feel a young man wants a beautiful, slim, spiritual, educated,
positive-thinking, capable young woman, an LDS version of a trophy wife. Your
complaints seem like an excuse to them. Marriage isn't about
what you want but that you are both looking together in the same direction and
working hard on the relationship together.Stop marathon dating and
instead date occasionally and spend the rest of your spare time in some sort of
service related activity. Volunteer in the community or help out in a family
ward. Get to know people by doing something besides entertainment type
dating.You could get to know someone for what they really are instead of the
superficiality that dating provides. You won't spend your married life in
dating mode. Married life is just that--life. It is working, raising children,
fixing up your house, fulfilling callings in church in spite of job pressures.
Do real things as well as the entertainment things and you might just find a
I know suggesting this is sacrilege for an article like this, but has he tried
dating women outside of the Church? I've been divorced for a couple of
years and while dating again has come with all the usual frustrations, I've
found that non-member women tend to be more mature, more open-minded, and have
more realistic expectations. It seems like most of the members I know are more
interested in reality shows, young adult novels, and gossip than in having an
As a father of 3 YSA children, dating does seem to be tougher than it was in my
day. The culture on that does seem to have changed--and not for the better. And, if he's in Utah, honestly, he may want to consider moving to a
different state. The Church outside Utah (and California) is a lot different,
and he may like it better almost anywhere else.However, both in my
day and now, when an LDS man says girls expect too much, he is very often
tacitly admitting that one or more of these is true: A) he didn't go on a
mission, and girls want a returned missionary, B) his testimony is shaky and/or
he doesn't go to church now, C) his current career prospects point toward
part-time employment at Wal-Mart, and D) he's spending a lot of time
playing video games in the basement.No LDS girl worth marrying wants
to shackle herself with those 4 issues. If he fixes as many of those as he can
(assuming he's too old for a mission now), his prospects for marriage will
drastically improve--and so will the girls he attracts.
It's true.At our last Stake conference, our Stake
President's entire talk was toward the many women he had coming in his
office all wanting a divorce.Their common complaints:His
doesn't make enough money,He is never home,He doesn't
treat me like his future Queen, He isn't "spiritual"
enough,He isn't living up to his potential, etc.He
said, These men were all hard working, Temple Worthy, active, and held
Church callings, BUTThey still were still not meeting these
"unreal" expectations.I see this trend and pattern becoming
the norm, rather than the exception...confirmed by our Stake President.
Angela Trusty's advice is excellent for both men and women. As are many of
the comments, good advice and insight. I think we all have in mind our ideal
and it evolves as we mature. It may be shaped by parents, friends, and
unfortunately fictional characters in books and movies. It helps to look for
potential and someone you can be yourself with.
I'll agree with Alan. What is this young man's purpose?Knowing that you've been out on "over 1000 dates" seems to
highlight the idea the young man is convinced that finding a companion and
spouse, lover and friend, is solely accomplished through dates.Settle down, slow down, and stop dating. Start being a friend, because then
your self-centeredness will disappear in trying to be helpful and supportive.
Simpletons call this the friend-zone. But only dullards don't understand
the importance of choosing from the pool of friends that have already shown they
love you through their actions, before any amorous intent. Sure,
maybe they don't "look beautiful", but hopefully they've shown
that they indeed are.
The best thing to do is focus on your own goals and making things better in your
life. Not perfect, but better. Ask your friends and family what things they
see that might turn off those you are dating. Listen to the answers and
don't take offense. Pray about what you have heard and ask which ones to
focus on first. Then work on them. And always have a purpose. Nothing turns
either gender off faster than someone who is drifting aimlessly. Pick a
profession to go to school for, or work in, and chase after it. Grow where you
are planted, in your ward, neighborhood, etc. and care about those in your ward,
aside from seeking a mate.
Say No To BO wrote:"Some never made the transition from high
school to BYU to marriage, which lessens their exposure to potential LDS
mates."I'm closing in on 60 and I never made the transition
you speak about, never plan to make it in fact. Despite my immaturity and more
than a few insecurities, my spouse of 35 years has decided her life is
significantly better with me in it so she keeps me around. The fact I happen to
agree with her makes for a (mostly) happy household.
1000 dates in 8 years is an average of more than 2 per week! Whoa! Slow down.
I think this young man was given advice to "not delay getting married"
by a well intentioned mission president or stake president. He probably thinks
that dating as much as he can is being true to that charge. It isn't.
I'm in the second half of my life now. I didn't get married until I
was 30. In hindsight, I wish I had dated a little more. Not because I would
have been married sooner or found anyone better. Only because I think I would
have enjoyed those years of being single more. Yet, there is no way I wish I
had averaged more than 2 dates a week. Doing things with groups of friends,
family home evening groups, young adult wards etc. should provide one with
plenty of opportunities to get to know others of the opposite gender. Then
based on what one learns in those settings, one can ask someone out on an
official "date." The 2 or 3 dates a week should happen when these less
frequent dates leads one to believe that there exists the basis for a deeper
Sorry dude but I don't buy it. It's tough to comment too much because
we really don't know you but chances are you don't want to commit or
the ladies are tired of the video games and goal-less career decisions. As a
father of two daughters, the de-masculization of America has hit a new low, in
my opinion. More than ever, guys are scared to commit to women and they are
increasingly ambitionless and dull, expecting their wives to join the workforce
and to be 50% partners in career money and raise good, happy children. Heck,
just the idea of calling a girl and asking her on a date and paying for it sends
half of these young men into panic attacks.
Following my mission, it too me close to 20 years to find the person I had been
looking for. I only dated members; ones I thought had good qualities. True,
not everyone is a good match for everyone, but I encountered many that I think
this young man is referring to: Young ladies who were waiting for Brad Pit to
join the church. I was told by most of these that they admired my spirituality,
my good work ethic, my gentelness, kindness, righteous endeavors -- but that is
not what they were looking for. ???? As I look back I am so
grateful that I kept looking. For me, I eventually started looking on some LDS
dating sites and came upon a young lady who had the same goals and aspirations
that I did. We have been married now for ten years and have five children. It
hasn't been clear sailing, but its been a great ride and we've
survived everything together!If a sweet young things turns you down
-- you very well should be grateful that you, as my father would say, dodged
At 55 I was once again in the dating scene and I found that it was hard to find
a possible mate. All the ladies I liked were already attached. But when I
changed my attitude towards the gospel and many things, I found that there were
some very nice ladies available. I did not look for beauty but instead looked
for spirituality and loving caring attitudes - guess what I found - Beauty from
the inside that made the lady beautiful on the outside. Sure she had physical
flaw but so do I. I am now involved with a beautiful lady who fills my life with
exactly what I need and want. The whole secret was being willing to look for
what God sees in a lady and not what society sees.
Try looking for potential
There was a young man in our YSA group who I thought had potential - some
post-grad work, a strong testimony, returned missionary, etc. We went out on
friend-dates a few times and I would have been open to stepping up our
relationship. But he lamented to a mutual friend that women in the church
weren't looking for guys with testimonies. They wanted the 6'2"
broad shouldered, perfect smiled hunks, while he himself was short, wore thick
glasses, had goofy hair etc. But I enjoyed his company and those things
didn't bother me, as I am not a perfect physical specimen either. But when
our mutual friend tried to encourage him to step up things with me, he admitted
he wanted someone closer to physical perfection (ie thinner), than I was. So he
wanted to be accepted, figurative warts and all, but wanted to impose physical
standards on the women he dated. And how many times does this happen in the
YSA/SA program in the church?
Men can be just as unrealistic as women. Many years ago, when I attended BYU, I
hated dating, going to dances, etc. It seemed that the men who asked me out had
a lot more expectations than I did, and I would often feel that I was featured
at a cattle show and would be asked at any minute to open my mouth so whomever I
was with could inspect my teeth! One guy I knew had a long list of what he
wanted his future wife to be like - not only character traits, but he had even
defined the precise height, weight, eye and hair color, and measurements that
would be acceptable. I believe there are many men and women who have those
kinds of lists. Probably the best advice in the dating world is to quit
worrying about expectations and just be yourself. You might be surprised at how
much you actually have in common without either person being perfect. And if
you are seeking perfection, then you'd better work on being perfect
Some of these comments are hilarious- yet I can see where each and every one of
them are coming from. In your own life, YSA Man, just follow the Spirit. If you
do that, you'll be just fine no matter what happens or doesn't happen
and don't forget that "expecting" something makes it less likely to
happen, in my experience and others experience. I am now happily married and a
SAHM, but I spent years as one the the girls few men/boys paid attention to (at
least in Utah) because I didn't gussy myself up and studied science and
have a graduate degree. Look beyond the stereotypes, everyone! We are all
One thing I would caution young single LDS women on is your expectations
regarding what a potential husband can/should provide during your early years.
I was in a bishopric in a YSA ward and I saw this often: Young single sisters
with unrealistic expectations on housing, cars, and other materials things early
in life. Too many expectations that she's going to continue to live in a
big house like mom and dad's, drive a late-model SUV like mom's, have
a big plasma TV like the one at mom and dad's house.I had a
girl tell me once that she was having doubts about taking the plunge with an
excellent young man she'd been dating for a long time. Her reason: "I
come from a wealthy family and he only makes $40k a year." News flash:
Everybody makes $40k a year when they're fresh out of college. Your dad
made $40k a year at that age. Most wealthy men are made, not born.This guy is right; many young LDS women have excessive expectations.
I feel genuinely sorry for all the dating people out there. Everybody is looking
for the perfect LDS woman, but she is not to be found -- I married her around 30
years ago!Sincerely,The Luckiest Atheist in the World
I'm surprised the logistics of this claim haven't been challenged.
1,000 dates in eight years works out to be roughly ten every month. While
it's not clear if those 1,000 dates were with 1,000 different women
I'm inferring that is the case or near enough so. I'm not sure if
I've even known that many people in my 49 years (to the level I've
spent at least a couple of hours in their company) never mind single women of
dating age with whom I share a religion. Where/how, even in Utah, does one find
1,000 single Mormon women of a certain age +/- a few years who would agree to go
out with a guy whose dating reputation at this point has to be mediocre at
best?Based on the comments here it seems that the acronym
"YSA" is accepted and normal with LDS society. I had to figure out what
it meant by reading pat1's post. It strikes me as an unfortunate label and
one that puts a lot of pressure on the person so labeled. That "YSA
Man" even uses it to describe himself just seems weird to me as a
Fairy tales huh? Are a disproportionate number of them falling into seemingly
If you haven't seen the movie "Shallow Hal", I would encourage you
to watch it. Yes, it's a bit crass and it's certainly not
an LDS movie, but it would be a real eye-opener to all of the YSA folks out
there looking for the perfect physical specimen as a mate.
I think YSA Man needs to slow down a bit if that is no exaggeration about the 8+
years of dating and 1,000 dates. That is almost one date every 3 days. How many
girls did this guy go through? 20? 50? 100? 200? More? Seems a bit excessive.My suggestion for YSA Man is to slow down and try to smell the roses.
Try to change any behaviors girls may be turned off about, and certainly
maintain the standards of the church. Don't demand perfection from a girl,
but is someone you find you can grow with.On my first date with my
wife, I lost her cell phone. It was in my pocket (she didn't have any) and
it must have fell out after sitting down somewhere to talk. I was impressed how
she reacted to my clumsiness. She was also a bit angry (naturally), but she was
also forgiving. Knowing she was forgiving was a big plug in my eyes. I am glad
she didn't dump me based on that event! A forgiving wife has been very nice
during our marriage!
What a fascinating topic. Truth is that there really are LDS women who consider
themselves princesses and are looking for Captain Moroni to show up on a white
charger with his PHD or MD, a home on Osmond Lane or somewhere comparable, and
the looks of Brad Pitt.Likewise, there are LDS men looking for
Audrey Hepburn with Sofia Vergara's figure, the testimony of Esther, the
spiritual nobility of Ruth, and righteous meekness of Mary.On the
other hand there are plenty of men and women with more realistic expectations,
strong testimonies, and doing their best to be their best. Chances are that if
you aren't finding good prospects while dating several hundred or a
thousand people, then you aren't looking at the right people in the first
place. In other words, the common denominator in all your failed relationships
is you.That said, I'm very grateful that I found my wife all
those years ago and am out of the single dating scene. It's nice being
able to focus all dates on the same person now, who is committed to me as I am
Open minded Mormon: I found myself laughing at everything you said and
thinking, "I disagree with everything this guy says and wonder how I could
possibly live next to him on this planet, let alone in a free democratic
republic." But, here I was agreeing with you! Wow, how can I turn this
into something good between two people that are so far a part politically that
it would take a millennium and several generations beyond to just say
'hello'? I don't know, but it was awesome to read your comments!
All of it is true. Our culture, both the LDS and societal at large, has come
to expect perfection out of the 'other' person, while the long train
of imperfections in ourselves goes virtually unnoticed. When two people realize
that it is impossible to 'change' your partner, it is the beginnings
of a good marriage!
I remember one of my sons trying to date in a singles ward when he was single.
He would ask nice girls out and they would always turn him down. He was tall, a
return missionary, a great priesthood holder who was diligent in his callings.
As he would observe what men these girls would date, the men were always the
best looking, athletic, somewhat arrogant, less diligent, more lazy, and more
into themselves. There was usually a touch of bad boy in them that made them
challenging, interesting, and mysterious. He dated and married a great girl he
met online. They have 5 children. He is successful. He is in the High
Council. He is a great father. He is kind, loving, and gentle. I think that
there are many single women in the church who don't have a clue about what
makes a good man. Some are interested in how the guy on their arm appears to
the other women in the ward. What makes a good man?
Seriously?? My sister is a widow.. it was some time after her husband died that
she decided to get on a LDS dating site.. after months she came to the
conclusion that LDS men her age were all looking for younger, skinnier women!
And those who did show her some interest were way younger men looking for a
Mommy. So I would say that not only do men have problems, but so do some women!
Sad, that we forget its what's on the inside and not whats on the outside!
Have we become a shallow people?
As someone who researches social economics, from an academic standpoint the
"dating game" is one of the most ineffective and inefficient
methodologies for mutual pairing. Naturally not everything in academics is the
reality of the matter, but I think that dating (especially at BYU) is a silly
joke. I went to BYU single, and I graduated single. I am of the
(radical) opinion that we need to ramp back a whole bunch on the dating talk.
Dating is dying. Move on. It is a natural change in the collective social
paradigm. There are too many people in the Church who lament the fact that
dating is not like it was in the 1950s. Society has changed since then. I doubt
that these (well intentioned) local leaders who beat the pulpit on marriage used
dating tactics from the early 1900s to find their wives. All told,
the biggest thing is to "become". "Become" something in your
life. Maybe that is where the letter writer's problem lies.
I would be interested to hear more specifics; maybe this brother will oblige
with more information, especially to what did your dates object about you, or
what criticisms did they make/ imply?My first reaction was to
sympathize: I've been in a singles ward and once joined an "LDS dating
agency". It was my experience that many of the women were very picky
indeed. I was an active (still am) LDS male, in steady, long-term, employment
with excellent benefits, TOTALLY FREE FROM DEBT, owned my own home, was temple
worthy, an elder with Church callings, only wanted a good lds woman who wanted a
companion, a family and to raise them right. One clue may have been
unwittingly revealed in the form I completed for the agency and made available
for the perusal of any LDS woman enrolled in it. The questions seemed to dwell
on how much you earned and what kind of car you had etc, worldly concerns, and
an employee made it clear to me that my failure was in not having a sufficiently
lucrative job to attract their clientele.So give us some more
details. Were your "imperfections" of a worldly or spiritual nature?
Most of the way through this discussion, I have been thinking, "You have
some ideas about the woman you want to marry. The main problem I see with the
women you have dated is that you are not the man they want to marry. Aside from
that problem, they seem to be fairly close to your description of who you want
to marry, as I understood that. So take a close look at yourself! If you were a
woman, what is there about a man such as you that would attract that woman? Work
on that! Improve on what would not attract such a woman!
I agree that the logistics of 1000 dates over 8 years seems a bit much. That is
a product of an excessive push for dating to occur. I think that it is
interesting that we have yet to have a president of the Church who served a
mission, got married, and graduated from college (in that order). Yes, times
were different then. So why do we keep on pushing dating styles from 30 years
ago? Either acknowledge that times are different, or admit that marriage age is
not a measure of righteousness. There are many examples of men who lead the
Church who also were married in their late 20s (Or later!). Four presidents of
the Church (WW 30, LS 30,ETB 27, GBH 26) fall into this category. Another
example is Henry B Eyring (Married at 29). The members of the Church would do
well to get out of the date and mate business.
Angela, you could not be more wrong and I am disappointed in your answer.
Perhaps your opinion is clouded because you are a woman but believe me, what
this guy says is true. Not only is this a problem in the dating world but this
mentality carries over into marriage. I am an active converted member of this
church and so are my friends. I cannot begin to tell you the frustration these
guys have in their marriage. The message to the men from the brethren is to
work, provide for our families, help out with the kids, help out with the
household chores, and this is what the sisters come to expect. I have no problem
with this but the sisters are virtually never told how to be good wives to their
husbands need in terms of meeting their physical and emotional needs. The
sisters hear from the brethren that we are perverts who are addicted to
pornography. My issue is not that woman expects too much from their men, but how
blind the sisters are to what should be expected of them. If so, I think they
would be more understanding of our flawed nature.
Are you sure you're not coming off as too desperate? That turns people off.
Doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, you won't get the
right kind of person attracted to you if you seem desperate. Oh, and people pick
up on it very quickly. I know. I was in the dating game for far too many years.
I think I must have given that vibe to men at times. And other times, men gave
it to me. I came into my own after many years of dating. I wish I had been more
sure of myself throughout my dating years, but I eventually learned it.
Another comment, it's not just the women with unrealistic expectations for
a potential spouse. SOOOOOO many men have that problem too. ALL people need to
get real about it.
Without going into a long story, I married someone who was looking for a Prince
and she was Cinderella. I had gone through a long divorce because my ex wanted
to dump me and the church and take the kids with her. I didn't want to
marry again and she (my new wife) seemed spot on testimony and church. So after
several months of online meeting and in person we married and wow, what a
change. It took me a decade to try to make it work, but now we are in divorce.
The reason is I didn't perceive her emotional disorders. It is severe and
can't be cured. After asking my Dr. for anxiety meds he advised me to
consider divorce to save my life. It was hard, but sometimes you have to
overlook failure and preserve yourself. She doesn't understand because of
her disorder and can't help it. Very sad as I truly care for her.
They are not Princesses they are Golddiggers. Princesses don't care about
trivial things like money. That's why I married who I married.
The comment regarding the Stake President listing divorce reasons troubles me. I
thought your discussions with your leaders were confidential? Sometimes male
leaders seem to take the side of men. The divorces in my ward this year were for
a) domestic violence, b) infidelity, and c) serious mental illness. The list
that the stake president provided could very well reflect a, b, and c above.To the LDS Guy I echo the others who say to stop dating and look for a
group of friends. Just enjoy being with other people for a while. Also, spend
some time making yourself into the person you want to be, but don't get
caught up in the notion that you or she need to be perfect from the get-go.
Denverite- Your list sounds more like a laundry list of criteria you want your
YSA daughters to use in their dating life as opposed how the average YSA lady
really thinks. On point A, yes being an RM is helpful but I don't think it
holds the same social prestige it once did with LDS girls mainly because there
are so many RMs to choose from especially in Utah. Agree with point B but
you'd be surprised how many faithful LDS girls go for the guy "living
on the spiritual edge." Point C just make you sound a little snobby. When
I first got engaged years ago to my wife, I had no job at all and no prospects
at the time but my future father-in-law believed in me and my potential.
Financial security is important but there are worse things to worry about when
finding a mate. On D, most of the young men in my Elder's quorum are
"gamers" to varying degrees but they all recognize what their priorities
should be. We all have our little hobbies and the key is to have a healthy
balance with family life and other responsibilities.
I will offer this: Too many men raised in religious environments have strict
expectations about gender roles in the marriage. Many try to find a woman who
will conform to these "traditional" gender roles. Many are taught in
priesthood meetings to be the "head of the house" and to
"preside" in the home and "over" the family. Sure, they give lip
service to the idea that women are supposed to be "equal partners" in
marriage, and they insincerely make comments about women being superior in
spirituality, but you know when it comes down to everyday life, the men take
charge and control things, including the money. Overall, most of the LDS men I
have befriended and gotten to know have been (IMHO) control freaks.What self-respecting woman wants to be stuck for eternity with a control
freak?Maybe that is why some of the best LDS women are marrying
atheists?Just a thought.
I feel like from what we can read about this guy, that he isn't wanting to
live up to what he believes are "unrealistic expectations" from the
women he's dated. Is this because he's truly not living up to the
"norm" of standards for any women? Sounds a little like a cop-out to me.
While young women and young adult women are taught that we are princesses,
because we are daughters of Heavenly Father, the same goes for the young men,
they just may not be told they are "princes." I was always
taught growing up to "be the person that you want to marry." If this guy
is asking women out that have high expectations that he feels he isn't able
to live up to and then turning around and calling them "princesses", it
sounds to me like he isn't being willing to meet expectation. Especially
out of the "1000" dates he's been on in the past 8 years. There is nothing wrong with having high standards of the person you want to
marry, as long as you recognize what is realistic and what is not, AND
you're living that way yourself.
1000 dates, that sounds like an exaggeration. Exaggerating is a bad sign for a
long term relationship.
I think this guy is right, that many girls are too materialistic and looking
with unrealistic expectations. But my experience at BYU was that there were also
lots of girls just looking for a decent guy who was kind and fun and had some
direction in life. I had many roommates who never got noticed by guys but were
awesome girls. The guys seem to all ask out the same girls. So I suggest to
guys, look for the girls who don't get noticed. Or even ask a female friend
to help identify who is really nice but doesn't go on too many dates.
You're probably overlooking someone fantastic for a superficial reason.I know in some singles wards, there are lots of girls with careers and
graduate degrees and lots of guys who are kinda still figuring out adult life,
who aren't getting anywhere with school or career. I can see why there
might be some resistance here from the girls. I don't know if the letter
writer is one of those guys.
I understand the necessity of this column being brief, but it sure looks like
were missing a large part of the story. The pieces don't add up. Unless
he's participating in "speed dating" activities, the "1000"
number looks like hyperbole. Also, is he saying he's dated a few women
dozens of times, or 1000 different women dated once? Early on (say, ages 16 to
21-ish), dating a lot of different people makes sense. But you can't
really get to know someone without spending a lot of time with that person.
Later in the dating game, it makes more sense to date one person at time several
times and then move on if the magic's not there. At this stage, dating a
lot of different people in a short time just gets you labeled a
"Player." Another possiblity: Maybe he's comes on too
strong too fast?
I think the responses here are too focused on the fact that this guy in his
frustration used the term "all". Yes we know that not all LDS girls are
like this but many are and more and more so it seems. Many LDS singles are way
too judgemental in who they date and who they will even consider getting to know
based on stupid prequalifiers like income, looks, callings held, etc. I
can't tell you how many times I've overheard conversations from BYU
student girls at a football game or something talking about how some guy had
left flowers for a girl and then texted her and the reaction from the girl was
how "creepy" that was. That kind of immature response is exactly what
this guy is talking about when it comes to the uptight little miss perfect
attitude from some LDS girls.
...wow 1000 dates with no luck, are you the biggest looser in dating?:)It took me 3 tries to find the right one, that was 20 yrs ago. These days with
the internet and on line dating where personalities are being filtered to come
up with potential is something to consider. At the very least to be more
economical i.e. you could have filtered those 1000 dates and come up with way
200 possibilities, can you imagine how much money and time you would have saved
if you did not go in the other 800? :)
I hear frustration in your voice. Dating can be very emotional, but here are
some thoughts on the boring analytical side: in the last eight years, did
anyone you date end up marrying someone? That would tell us they are not being
unrealistic in their expectations at least for choosing a mate. Young ladies
are still getting married, so they can't all be holding out for perfection.
And, while we all like to assume other people are just looking too much for
superficial things such as money or looks, most people who get married
aren't incredibly attractive or rich. It sounds like in your frustration
you have ruled out the possibility that you have anything to do with this
predicament, yet plenty of women are finding husbands and getting married. I
didn't get married until I was thirty, and I know it's hard out there,
but your future wife will suffer much less if you can train your brain to look
for how you can help the situation instead of blaming her for everything.
Some members of the church insist on the perfect mate who must be a returned
missionary. When my daughter made the decision to marry a young man who had not
served a mission many people were very judgmental even though it was a temple
marriage. They assumed he must have committed some terrible sin and wasn't
I afraid to allow my daughter to marry someone like that. This young man has
made a wonderful husband, father, and provider. Young men and women need to
delve deep below the surface and give people a chance. I have a marriage age son
who was in treatment for clinical depression. He is smart and talented. He
avoids dating because people kept asking him why aren't you on your
mission. They assume it's a moral or drug issue when it isn't. They
don't bother to get to know who he really is inside. The word depression is
scary but my grandfather lived a wonderful life despite suffering from it. He
was faithful and good. We must stop looking for perfection in others and find
who they really are. We are losing young men who feel marginalized.
When I heard a young man say that he couldn't find the right girl, who met
his specifications, I told him to look in the mirror. He is no "prince
charming" himself. I think the girls need to look in the mirror and reflect
on their attitudes - i will bet they are no "princess'" either!
"Maybe that is why some of the best LDS women are marrying atheists?"Scientist - Define "best LDS women". And of those women, how
many do you know you actually married an atheist? Well, besides your own wife,
The Scientist:You tend to (intentionally) be a big pain in the
behind on these discussion boards, but your comment about the perfect LDS wife
was funny. I put a like on your comment.
Well, I'd love to meet you, maybe I could hope to bring that average down.
:)We're not all bad, just human. Unfortunately, how you've
described us, is how humans are.
I wouldn't go back to the singles ward to save my life. My LDS parents
have been mentors in two singles wards now and from the stories I hear, the
stress level is just as high as I remember. I will say that it swings both
ways. I remember the RMs coming back and wanting a trophy wife. I spent a lot
of weekends home and I'm not sure why. I've always been the type to
give most guys a chance. I think there's an ounce of truth to the
whole Mormon girl princess mentality. This guy claims to be a real guy. I
wonder if he needs to ask himself if he's trying to date real girls. If
he's constantly aiming for out of his league, he's going to be
constantly shot down. Hard pill to swallow, but true. I've heard
the complaints coming from both sides. Based on what I hear from my parents and
what I remember, I think things are harder for the women. Dating again,
but glad that this time around, it will not be in a singles ward. At least I
have that going for me.
This guy is definately trying too hard. Here is my advice.Take it
easy, slow down, you don't have to go out with every woman you meet.Yes, the women are taught they are Princesses. Treat them as if they
are, and you will find one that will return your kindness by treating you like
the Prince that you are.Now, when I say treat them like a Princess,
that does not mean that you spend every dime on them and spending all sorts of
money on them and doing expensive activities. By treating them like a Princess,
you must show them that you are willing to look out for their needs (not wants)
and will show them the respect that you would also want to receive.Get to know what she likes BEFORE you go out. Do something that you both
either enjoy or that you would at least like to try.
Having been in the LDS single scene as recently as a year ago, I have to agree
that it is true. However, I have heard things from both genders about the
expectations that they have. I know that there are a lot of great LDS men and
women who are not like that, but there are many that are. The expectations that
I have heard have been insane from both sides. I am glad that I met my husband
online and did not have to go through the single's ward scene.
I'm curious about the type of girl he goes after. What are his
expectations? There seems to be a general tendency to think more highly of
ourselves than we should. I have to admit that when my husband asked me out the
first time, he wasn't even on my top 10 list. But in just the first few
minutes on the phone he seemed well spoken, funny, and really ambitious, so I
agreed to give it a shot. We were married 2 months later, and here we are nearly
14 years later, happier than we could ever imagine.
If you ask out girls that look like princesses, don't be surprised when
they act like princesses.
My son dated a "trophy" girlfriend. He knows better now. I've seen
so many young men and women looking for a "trophy" spouse. I feel sad
for them because they are so clueless about what marriage is really about. They
have no idea they will spend the first years adapting themselves to see each
other without the makeup and gel every morning, smelling puke or poop from a
baby, or sweating for working all day. I see married girls spending money
without any fear thinking they deserve that and more because they are
"princess", and as princess they want the best clothes, the best house,
the best decorations. I've seen married boys who think their princess
should receive them with open arms every single day because princesses do not
have a bad day at home! There is a solution to all of this and is
called: grow up! that's not real life! there is no difference between an
old person who was pretty when young and another one who was not that pretty.
They are all wrinkled!
I think part of the problems with dating in Mormon culture is a result of
Church's teachings on dating and courtship: (1) Pre-16: No dates; (2) Age
16: You can date now, but no pairing off so stay in groups; (3) Age 18/19: Go on
a mission; (4) Age 20/21: Now that your mission is over, time to get married.
And so they do get married, in droves, having never had any other meaningful
dating experiences. I think this mindset has to contribute to increasing
divorce rates in the church. For exmaple, had I married soon after my mission,
it likely would have been to a type of person I would not wish to be married to
now. I had too many experinces at BYU and graduate school that helped me to
learn so much about myself and what I really needed in a spouse. I'm very
blessed I had that time for discovery. Finally found her, and am very happy for
the past 5 years.
In my own experience, and that of many of my male friends, the most lasting
relationships were those that started out between friends, and developed into
dating and courtship after there was already a solid foundation. Rather than
picking one person at a time to ask on a date, develop a group of friends, men
and women, and spend time with the group doing things you all like.I
had the advantage of being on-campus during college, and spent most of my
socializing time in the dorms. My wife and I met early one year (I was an RA,
she was a hall president). We spent some time watching football games and
movies on TV and just talking a lot, got to know each other, THEN got set up on
a date by her roommates. I was dating other girls at the time, but things just
fell into place with her. We have been married for 26 years.Yeah, I
know, that's a sickeningly sweet story, but it's true. Good luck, YSA
Also, I think the fact that the church has become the activities and dating arm
for singles makes the lamentations from Church leadership about the decline in
dating ring hollow. Why would a single person interested in somene in their
ward need to ask them out, since they'll see each other at Church on
Sunday, linger longer on Sunday night, FHE on Monday night, ultimately frisbee
on Tuesday night, . . . ad infinitum. Why buy the cow when you can milk it for
There is an easy solution to this. It works in almost every social network.
Pay $ to one or more of the girls in the group to "pretend" to "have
a crush" on you. The other girls will sense this, which naturally drives
your "personal stock exchange price" up. (see insider trading on Wall
Street). After the "market" rallies for a few weeks, you will have to
beat them off with a stick... In fact, the girl(s) that you recruit on your
little plan, will frequently fall in love with you. (girls love to be part of
conspiracies - And they will love you for being so clever)
I am not really looking for a partner to marry right now and am not very
interested in dating in the moment, I am only 21, but from some of the comments
my feelings of fear for when I do start looking have been reinforced. Some
people took on the not serving a mission point and said things along the lines
of "Not everyone who hasn't served a mission had a serious moral
problem or anything." Well, I am unable to serve a mission because I did
fall off the path for a while and had a non-member girlfriend with whom I had
sexual relations, and that cost me my mission. Does this mean that men like me
who have committed serious moral transgressions do not deserve to find happiness
with a nice LDS woman in the future? Don't the scriptures teach that
through repentance our sins can be erased as if they never happened? Women, and
men too, should look at someone based on what they are, not what they have done
in the past.
First of all I am married - long since.Having seen lot of comments
now (I also added a thought of my own a way back), I'm becoming somewhat
convinced of a couple of things:That maybe dating IS a bad idea and
making friends a better one. I don't know if it really works but I am
persuaded it is a better plan for single people. I also think that online
contacts might be a good idea as it brings more people into the picture,
although I imagine there could be predators, fakes and gold diggers out there,
even on LDS sites.That a benign older person, like Thomas S Monson,
can sometimes have the insight and experience to bring together two good young
people who are too shy to know when someone likes them, too inexperienced to
know when someone is genuine and a good prospect for marriage, and who might
help to overcome initial difficulties.We need good marriages in the
Church and the wonderful homes they provide for wee spirit children. We need
people who are in it for the long haul and do not quit easily, and go on loving
their partner for ever.
our Stake President's.......isn't living up to his
potential, etc.========= part 2I remembered a few
more nuggets -- Sisters, None of you the perfect Eve - yet,
Therefore, none of you are worthy of that perfect Adam - yet.You married an imperfect man - but like yourself, also a Child of
Celestial Nobility, a literal Prince, and with you together can mature
into the Kings and Queens you have have already been anointed to BECOME.you WILL get that Mansion, you WILL have Celestial Life, but, this is NOT the Celestial Kingdom.This is the Telestial.We
haven't even moved to the next room yet.However, the Temple
promise states unequivocally: these blessings..."CAN" be yours --
according to your faithfulness.Brothers and Sisters, it's true
we need to grow-up, But if a husband is Temple Worthy, and earnestly
striving to keep the commands, as a Judge in Israel, I honestly
can't recommend asking for the Lord's Blessing in divorce simply
because an embryotic God has not yet reached his/her full Eternal potential and
twinkled into becoming the 4th member of the Godhead. (laughter, light of
course).Brethren - ....the same goes for you.
Having "Lists" is pandemic to both sexes. Dating in the over 40 set has
its own set of challenges too. As a recent graduate of the LDS singles scene, my
now wife, A Salt Lake Valley Ex-Pat tells me the single Active LDS guys have it
made as there are many more active Females than Males. Of course, the Single Men
game the system and want to date/marry the rare rich Barbie doll types and
retire to be their House Husbands and have the woman continue to work. Yes,
I'm as surprised as the rest of you that there is this small population of
deluded Player/Brothers who think they are entitled to a cushy life because of
their Church activity. My bride also tells me these Brothers upon learning she
was engaged to me, a California Mormon, were displeased that I was poaching on
their females. So while they were chasing Barbie. I got the grown-up Kate Upton
with a Temple recomend and now a second home in Utah. Yippie !!!
@Open Minded MormonI hope your Stake President gets a promotion to
General Authority! That man has the courage and inspiration of a prophet!
@ AlaskanLDSJuneau, AK"Sometimes male leaders seem to take
the side of men."lol! That was a good one! Oh, you were
Activity without faith will produce the same results as sewing seeds in the
Just a little math, for the geek inside of me, 8 years and 1000 dates, roughly
every three days for 8 years.Sure it has been a long time since I
was in the dating scene, but I wonder how anyone believes that they could even
afford to date that often. A date is not hanging out, at least it wasn't
where and when I came from.A date is intended to get to know someone
better than you might otherwise know them by casual conversation in the church
foyer or at an activity where there are many people to interact with. This often
require prior planning and should be designed to allow for some measure of
enjoyment and opportunity to discuss "life" so that one can make a
connection. Some connections grow because of similarity and others because
nothing more.I can't imagine getting to 1000 dates, and the
related 3 day intervals without some kind of significant emotional investment on
both parties parts. If you get to the end and things have fallen apart, as it
might seem to be the case, be glad that you didn't figure that out right
after the temple wedding and reception.
Any young man who lives in anxiety of the expectations of the women around him
simply does not expect enough of himself as a man. Worry about what you expect
of yourself and them, not what they expect. Find out what they expect only to
weed out the delusional and irretrievably immature among them (there are many of
these). Enjoy yourself and your friends and be comfortable with who you are, not
obsessive about things you need to change. Real women are attracted to mentally
healthy and stable men. As men, we often lose that filter when looking at a
woman's beauty. So be careful of that. Women who appear attractive to most
men are often very narcissistic and immature. Find a woman who is open,
friendly, intelligent and carries a few extra pounds. She has most likely found
a much deeper and useful way to make herself appealing than just "looking
right" for the superficial male eye.
Girls if you want to be treated like a queen you have to treat your man like a
king. Start by treating him like a prince and grow together in the gospel. Stop
judging a guy by how think his wallet is because even the poorest guy can be a
great catch. Judge them by how they treat you. Run for the hills if he's
your worst nightmare.
Back in the day unrealistic LDS men looked for the Golda Mier/Racquel
Welch/Camilla Kimball package. My mom would invite these men to " take a
good, hard look in the mirror." After taking that look, they managed to
find very nice women to marry. I remember one of my FHE brothers panicking
because he had graduated from BYU and was going to a real job in Denver with
"no wife!" The horror! He was happily married 6 months later. Turns
out he needed a smaller pond. Too many options made it impossible for him to
narrow down his choices and decide. I recall telling a young man in a smallish
Institute program in the mission field that I wasn't interested in dating
him. He said then there was no one to date. I asked what he thought about a
dozen girls that I thought he would like. His response, Oh, I never thought of
them. And finally, blaming the girls won't result in marriage. Fixing
that personality flaw might.
"Open Minded Mormon"God Bless you for your posts, thank you for
sharing this nugget of wisdom, truly inspired!
Over a thousand dates with girls that are princesses? I'm remembering a
young RM who revealed an engagement ring on the first date (some of my own
daughters "experienced" him). He developed quite a grape-vine reputation
before he moved out tot the area. If not for the "YSA" tag,
I'd think he was still out there on the prowl --
You might say I've on a "break" from dating for close to two
decades now because I felt the LDS women I dated had unrealistic high
expectations in the areas of spirituality and many times income (mine). As I
approach 61, the dating pool among single LDS women my age or up to 15 years
younger is vastly limted in quantity and quality, especially where I live
(Southern California). Anything younger is usually too immature or a single
divorced mom who isn't interested in a relationship and/or marriage. What
the stake president said in Open Minded Mormon's post is a big reality far
more than others know or realize or would be willing to admit. 38 years
divorced and it's been downhill ever since, but interestingly enough
I've made a lot female friends (in otherwords
"friendzoned")("you're so nice and sweet but not my type").
I still want get married/sealed, but the future doesn't look good despite
having as positive an attitude as I can muster.
I am single, LDS and divorced. I thought I had been on a lot of dates, way to
many in fact. One thousand seems like a lot. Dating can be frustrating. I had
a date where we agreed to meet downtown for a movie. She was upset that I
didn't suggest meeting inside the warm theatre. Never got another date.
One lady, a widow was upset I tried to hold hands on a second date. Said I made
her uncomfortable. Other women will hold hands from the moment you meet them
at a dance. A lady I adore won't date me to due age differences. I am
constantly told I am a swell guy however I don't feel a connection with
you. I am not a complainer, just frustrated. There were lots of wonderful and
successful single adults in the ward I attended. Unfortunately the church
disbanded older adult wards. I am employed and very responsible. Certainly far
from perfect. I am the only single adult in my immediate family. Dating has
been a very discouraging experience for me.
Dating isn't a science. The people who make it into one make it
complicated.1) Don't date. Meet people. Get to know someone and
actually listen for a while and try to find things you like about them. You may
not need to marry them, but that doesn't mean you can't be friends.
(it doesn't sound like that's happening here, am I wrong?)2) When you become great friends, then shoot for something more.
I feel that many LDS women are obsessed with "Romance Novels"They give these ladies an unreal image of potential spouses.Prime
example are the male lead characters in the tight light novels or the
"Hallmark Channel" on cable.It is no wonder the average age
of marriage is going up dramatically.The sisters can not find anyone
who can compare to the actors or characters in the fantasy they read or watch.
Learn to love yourself so much that being alone is pretty awesome. It sounds
crazy, but that is when you'll be most ready for love. Promise to love
yourself, and totally keep that promise every day through your actions and your
thoughts. It changes everything.
From the outset I have to confess that I'm not single and have been married
for a long time. It's funny that the women and the men complain about the
same things. One thing that I found interesting in my life was a quote from a
very sage man, "Richard Simmons." He was/still is a weight-loss guru
from way back. He had been very obese and then encouraged several generations
of overweight people to lose weight through diet & exercise. The gist of his comment was, "Every overweight person wishes the
man/woman he/she is dating would see herself for the beauty inside." This
applies to the short guy with glasses & the woman who is overweight as well
as the person with bad skin, bad hair, etc., etc. ie, we want to be appreciated
for OUR inner qualities but we don't want to date/marry the overweight man,
the short man, the person with bad skin, the girl with thick glasses or a big
nose no matter what his/her inner qualities are. I've seen this happening
all my life. BTW,
On some levels I can relate to the letter writer. Permit me to explain. After
my mission I came home, went to school, and tried to date. This was at BYU.
However, when the young woman found out I was majoring in Education (school
teacher) their interest dropped by 50%. When they then learned I intended to
return to the Navajo Reservation with the intent of helping to build up the
church, their interest evaporated altogether. Eventually I did marry. It ended
in disaster. As a divorced man, I found that LDS women in my area simply were
not interested. I was "tainted". Even though I attended church,
fulfilled my callings, etc., I was "not good enough". Eventually Father
intervened and I did find a woman, six years younger than myself, willing to
accept my situation. We have been married for 22 plus years. So I don't
know who the writer has been dating, but many LDS young women do have overly
narrow requirements. I also know that sword cuts both ways.
As a Father of Two girls. Be worthy of the Perfect LDS Princess you meet.
Don't expect my Girls to settle for less then a worthy male
For those of you who look to money as a factor in marriage, it is. But, and a
great big but, happiness in ones life, work, and church outweighs money anytime.
I opted to become a teacher, knowing I would never get rich, at least in a
monetary way. We opted for a modest home, raised two children, and are now
enjoying one grandchild and our life has been rich and fulfilling. First
find someone you will enjoy growing with. My wife and I have grown together.
We served, perhaps one of the longest part time missions. Eight years as
managers of the local Bishop's storehouse. My wife had some retail store
experience and took the lead for most of the storehouse. We were called during
the week after it had opened.
My experience in a singles ward was opposite of what I expected. Many eligible
attractive, successful women, still unmarried in the 30s and 40s. The reason in
many cases was not that they couldn't find a guy. Lots of them too. It
was that they had the attitude that if they have waited for Mr. Right (read
perfect) for this long and haven't found him, they are not going to settle
now. And, with what they hear about marriage and the Temple, they figure that
if they don't find the perfect match here in this life, they will then be
given him in the next. Not sure if that is sound LDS doctrine, but you might be
surprised to find many sisters who feel that way. We guys on the other hand are
commanded to be married, or else......
It's a problem. Slowing down and adjusting expectations is vital. I know of
a lot of issues like those mentioned by Brave Sir Robin and Open Minded Mormon.
An issue for both sides of the aisle. I gotta admit though....the
day I had a date (third one with this woman)... and she asked me more about my
employment. I had started the company and because of some legal and insurance
issues we abandoned that company and started another. Re-arranged the ownership
(without me) and I set up a management company to get my share. I got half way
through that story and she asked .... "So you don't own your own
company?" I said no... and her attitude went through the floor. She never
answered my emails after that. We were in our early to mid 50's then. Seen a lot of that. People get older and they get bitter or worn out.Concluded that I have too many problems of my own... never going to be
anyone's prince charming. Thank heaven for the promise.... of getting this
all straightened out.Keep the faith....
Hmmmm.....so why is it if an LDS woman complains that there are not enough good
men, she is consoled, but if an LDS man complains there are not enough good
women, he is told, basically, to shut up?Anybody else getting the
@shaun66The message to the men from the brethren is to work, provide
for our families, help out with the kids, help out with the household chores,
and this is what the sisters come to expect. I have no problem with this but the
sisters are virtually never told how to be good wives... The sisters
hear from the brethren that we are perverts who are addicted to pornography. My
issue is not that woman expects too much from their men, but how blind the
sisters are to what should be expected of them. If so, I think they would be
more understanding of our flawed nature.10:41 a.m. Jan. 14, 2014========= Agreed.Great Comment!I do the
"man" things - work, pay the bills, garbage, lawns, paint,
maintain cars & house,etc. ANDclean, laundry, meals, shop,
etc.She stays home, and "rears" the kids.[no work, no
$, no cleaning, no meals.]The one-sided message coming from the
"brethern" is disheartening.I joke to my non-members friends
about being a Mormon:What, are you crazy?I already have one
wife too many, and I already feel like I've been married
I believe social media has changed the scene significantly seeing the difference
in the dating environment since the 1950's. People and especially those
with multitasking capabilities can drive a car, shave or put make-up on, text or
talk on their various media devices. Listening to radio is even different as
people can participate in a program through their media devices. Young people
even text when the individual they are texting is an arm length distance away
from them, in class, church or just hanging out. Television
programs, movies, plays and other forms of entertainment have missed the boat
for 2 generations on what a family is supposed to be. Talk show hosts and
reality television programs are far from what is needed for being a husband and
wife and desires of that couple for being a couple in a real dating environment.
It's not easy for individuals to make a commitment to be
dating, engaged and being married for longevity in a relationship. People
change jobs more, one reason or another. People don't see making a
long-term relationship. 1,000 dates comes from not having a real plan or a
goal. Life is work. Hanging out is not dating.
Something I have observed: One of the problems I see in relationships today
revolves around expectation. If you expect certain things from others it
becomes difficult to be grateful for those things. For example, if i expect to
wake up in the morning and be healthy it becomes difficult to be grateful for
this blessing. Same thing in marriage, if the woman expects too much from their
husbands (I think they do) they are not as grateful. Without going into any
details it seems that the woman of the previous generation are so much more
grateful and happy when they see young men helping out as they do. They lived
at a time when their husbands did not help out as they do today and I think the
difference is that this generation of woman (in the church) expect this and as a
result lack gratitude for all their husbands do. God bless that stake president
for saying what he did, if only more had the courage to say these things.
Our culture puts a lot of pressure on young people to be the perfect provider,
romantic, caregiver, conversationalist, dancer, scholar, activist, rock star,
good person, artist, supermodel, lover, mechanic, handy-person, skilled
craftsperson, cook, athlete, worker, sensitive pseron, listener, diplomat,
friend, animal husbandry person, farmer, soldier, and intellectual all in one
person. Consider the movies upon which most people gain their social
intelligence... It's all about fulfilling your dream... sure there's
an occasional hiccup on the way, but after a quick "make-over" scene in
which the main character tries on a dozen new outfits, the rockband reunites and
they playout blissfully over the closing credits... So yeah,
Life's not a fairy tale... not for women or men. Good luck getting over it
and finding someone else that has matured similarly. Here's one
last clue: How do you tell if someone is mature enough to have a decent
relationship with them? Answer: They openly admit their shortcomings and are
somehow capable of keeping a smile on their face about it.
Arioch: Be prepared to have single daughters for a long time and when they do
marry be prepared to have unhappy son in laws ;)
I remember 50 years ago, being taught to lower my expectations and not expect a
clean house, neatly pressed clothes, or cooking like Mom.for the
young women, is was someone who did not drink, went to church regularly,
was - "Temple Worthy" and a good hard-worker.[Didn't even
have to go on a full-time LDS Mission back in those days]But that
expectation has shifted;not only Temple Worthy,buta Returned
Mission, an Eagle Scout, a College Graduate, with a very well
established career, a large house in an up-scale neighborhood with all the
bells and whistles, and either a High Priest or the Elder's Quorum
President.Someone just like their "Daddy". The
only way to marry someone just like their "Daddy", is to marry
someone --- well, just like their Daddy...i.e., a mature man, 20-40 older
than they are.BTW -- Gen 3:17Moses 4 "...cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of
it all the days of thy life.By the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat
bread,"We are supposed work through life together -- for our own
My husband of 19 yrs this April, has been a member for his whole life. Me,
however, I've been a member for 19 yrs. just a week before my wedding. I
would like to share with this young man my experience of dating an LDS young
man. They are very head strong ,goal-oriented. I tell you this b/c I joined this
church b/c of my husband in the beginning, but stayed b/c of the fathers they
become. So maybe the reason you can't fine "the one" is not b/c of
who your dating,but where your finding them. Don't get me wrong LDS women
are some of my best friends,but there are amazing women outside of the church
who would love to join this church. Just a food for thought.
To "LDS Liberal" you really do have a pessimistic view of the world.
The young women that I have heard talk about what they look for in a man
typicall want a few things.They typically want a guy that can be
married in the temple, physically attractive to them, and is willing to clean a
toilet.You are either making thigs up based on exagerations of
things you have heard, or else you live in an area filled with lots of
The Lyrics from the 30s Ira/George Gerswin Song "Lets call the whole thing
off" seems fitting for this discussion. It indicates that the War of the
Sexes, specifically the YSA set, didn't just begin during the Great
Not knowing the exact situation, I would suggest that we can learn several
things from this discussion and situation:1. Some people have too high of
expectations in marriage and dating.2. Some people have too low of
expectations in marriage and dating.3. Too many people define self-worth
by whether or not they get married quickly, when they should be more concerned
about developing the qualities to make a marriage work.4. Our efforts
should be focused on improving ourselves and being the "right person"
for the type of person we want to marry.5. If we truly learn to rely on
Christ and make Him the center of our lives, the rest will fall into place.
That doesn't mean that things will happen according to our time table, but
according to God's time table. For some, it means it won't happen in
this life. If we put our trust in God, we can stop worrying about why it
hasn't happened according to our time table.6. It takes two to make a
marriage work. Two united in Christ will make any marriage work, but if
it's only one, there are no guarantees.
Since the Topic is about marriage choices the lyrics to this old Reggae song
from the 60's seems spot-on. The Lyrics are from "If you
want to be happy" by Jimmy Soul. If you wanna be happy for the
rest of your lifeNever make a pretty woman your wifeSo for my
personal point of viewGet an ugly girl to marry youA pretty
woman makes her husband look smallAnd very often causes his downfallAs soon as he married her and then she startsTo do the things that will
break his heartBut if you make an ugly woman your wifeA-you'll be happy for the rest of your lifeAn ug-a-ly woman cooks
meals on timeAnd she'll always give you peace of mindIf
your friends say you have no tasteGo ahead and marry anywayThough
her face is ugly, her eyes don't matchTake it from me, she's a
better catchIf you wanna be happy for the rest of your lifeNever make a pretty woman your wifeSo for my personal point of viewGet an ugly girl to marry you
Honestly, the door swings both ways. I was single for a very long time, had some
proposals but when I prayed about them I knew they were not right for me. And I
am glad that I chose to follow those promptings. But I dated many guys who also
had some fairly unrealistic ideals as well. I really believe if we are at least
trying to live as we should, really no one is perfect, but by always
reevaluating ourselves and picking ourselves up when necessary eventually we
will find a compatible partner. If these girls have unrealistic ideals, then
they have done you a favor by removing themselves from your possibilities. But
as the author said you may want to re-evaluate the type of girl you ask out. Why
do you keep asking the same type of girl? It's a fair question. Maybe
taking a break as he suggested is a good idea. Then start looking at a wider
variety of girls. You may find your type was different then you thought. But you
don't have to settle for anything but a Temple marriage.
What do women want.I'm retired from a major airline. When I was "non reving" even as a young man if I was sitting
next to a young lady, What do you think one of the first questions out of their
mouths was?Oh what do you do for a living? I think we all know why
they would I always even to this day felt that I was some how being
graded by them.I would never ask a stranger on a plane what they did
for a living.I feel that is just to private.
@BYU Track StarLos Angeles, CAHa ha, Speaking of which
-- that gives me a great idea to suggest --- Perhaps they need to
start showing the old classic "Johnny Lingo" again in seminary and YSA
The book "Fanny's Dream" is a good read for single people. Better
than "Johnny Lingo."
Okay, concerning the income/occupation issue - Yes, we women want men who will
be good providers. I certainly would hesitate to even date a grown man who is
content to work as an unskilled laborer (like a 60+ year old man I knew who
worked as a stockboy at a grocery store for $8 an hour). That shows a lack of
ambition which could spell trouble in other areas of his life. I don't need
a doctor or lawyer making six figures, who will keep us in new cars and a 7000
square foot house, and ski trips to Colorado every year. But neither do I want a
man content to make $25K so that even with my income we live paycheck to
paycheck. I've struggled enough financially for most of my (solitary) adult
life. Is it so wrong to want a man who has a solid career path?
Mel50Nashville, TNOkay, concerning the income/occupation issue -
Yes, we women want men who will be good providers. I certainly would hesitate to
even date a grown man who is content to work as an unskilled laborer (like a 60+
year old man I knew who worked as a stockboy at a grocery store for $8 an hour).
That shows a lack of ambition which could spell trouble in other areas of his
life. ======= Ok, let's turn this around;You know
-- 50/50Yes, we men want women who will be good companions. I
certainly would hesitate to even date a grown woman who is content to work as an
unskilled laborer (like a 50+ year old woman with no children at home I knew who
worked as a clerk at a grocery store for $8 an hour). That shows a lack of
ambition which could spell trouble in other areas of her life. See
-- What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
Finding a suitable spouse is the most important decision one makes in their
life. I didn't marry till 36. I was looking everywhere. Did a dating
service, two LDS networking sights, several others out of the country including
cherryblossoms where I found my match. I found myself dating more for
personality than looks because I knew that I am quirky. While the women
weren't lookers, they were great people. None however matched my wife for
what I was looking for. I can feel this young man's pain as it
was my own. I also feel for the many single women who suffer from the social
stigma Utah has against YSA. My observations:1 The older
I got the easier it was to find quality women who were easier to get along with,
but not necessarily at the same life stage as I was2 I was better prepared
financially and socially being older3 The LDS culture surrounding marriage
causes undue stress to YSA 4 Cell phones are a bane to social
interaction5 Great women can be found anywhere. Always widen the search
and be flexible.
I'm a YSA, and I admit my standards are high. That being said, I stick the
the same standards I expect my potential spouse to have. I don't expect
anything from him that I can't achieve myself. "Awake! and arise
from the dust; and be men.; Not always but often it is the men who choose not to
answer the call to;come join the ranks; Women and children frequently seem more
willing. Brethren, step up. Do it for your sake. Do it for the sake of those who
love you and are praying that you will respond."
Elder Jeffrey R. HollandI am not going to lower my standards when I
know I deserve an equal partner willing to share in my standards. I don't
expect my spouse to be picture perfect either. I understand there's room
for development and growth for both of us, but I'll not stand idly by while
I'm being berated for my standards that many men aren't willing to
step up to. Marriage is an equal partnership- I expect him to be equally
participating in the standards I have for him as well as myself.
I have often lamented about the attitudes instilled into young mormon women, by
church and church members for a long time. 20 years or so.(I am happily
married). We teach these young ladies to aim high, get married in the church and
the temple marriage is the goal. but todays young ladies extrapolate that into
he has to be a rm, college graduate, built like Thor, and wealthy. Well I got
news for them, many fine young men never serve missions, they go into the
military. Never go to college, but are tradesmen. Working in the construction or
automotive trades. And when you chase after mammon then we know who your real
god is. The expectation is that they will be the stay at home mom suzy crafter,
living in a McMansion, driving the latest cars. For almost all ladies, this will
not be the case. Todays economic times may mean both will have to work to stay
out of major debt like we are counseled to do. Look for a help meet, someone to
journey through like with, not carry you through on his back.
I think shaun66 has a point. I think that men should be around, help out and
provide - all the stuff that is said in conference. How about a talk or two on
sisters/women their expected roles? I am a widower and now married
a second time, through an online dating scheme (the word kind of fits).My second wife helped me see that she understood the differences between men
and women in needs and roles in life and marriage. I think that a lot of men
sacrifice literally their life's dreams for their mates/families who some
times don't notice nor appreciate the rubble of dreams offered up on the
altar of trying to please an unappreciative spouse.Sure a lot of
young men are duds at life, not sure why but they need to suck it up and be a
man. I also see a lot of women who I am not sure I would want to come home to
for the rest of my life who also need to do an inventory. Help meet
is a bi-partisan phrase, both genders need to complement and help the other.
Samuel - I have no problem with men holding women up to the high standards that
we hold for men. I won't argue that point. But in case your comment was
meant as a dig - I do have some college and make way more than $8 an hour.
I'm graduating from one of the BYU schools in April and find that this
entitlement complex applies to both men and women. I’ve seen
the princess mentality have devastating consequences for LDS women.
They’re told from their YW days that marriage is a fairytale when
it’s not. They expect their husbands to be perfect when no guy is. When
these women reach that realization, the impact is devastating and results in
heartbreak. I’ve never seen such an entitled group of men as
LDS guys. They think that they deserve only the best without putting in the
effort. They want a Victoria’s Secret model with a testimony and the
brains to match. I’ve seen LDS guys pass over good, smart, and successful
women for vapid, vacuous ninnies simply because they look like supermodels.
I’ve seen marriages like that fall apart because the guy feels like
he’s doing all the work. I think people need to realize that
no one is perfect. I think getting rid of the over idealized views of marriage
would actually help both men and women be more realistic when it comes to
I realized something very interesting the other day. I have a southern Heritage
and the South has a more Patriarchal dominant society-meaning Dad gets his was
more than Mom(atleast in my house/ experience with Southerners). I get the
feeling that out west cuz of polygamy, and or the supposed shame of it, people
compensate by by allowing women to get their way more. Culturally Mormons are a
more Matriarchal Society. Hope my jargon can be translated.(Please don't
take my generalizations seriously)The above comment has helped me to
realized a lot about what moses 7:18 means. Really it is the difference between
the Rich and the Poor, Republican and Democrat, The Enoch who asked "How is
it that thou canst weep"(Exaltation) and the one who "refused to be
comforted"(Salvation) and of course Male and Female.The Prince
and Princess deal with a less common pride that is the hardest to overcome,
while the rest of us deal with a more common pride.I like what
Angela said plus all those who advocate slowing down.
Dating and marriage are complex issues, but one thing that many American men
overlook is the option to find a wife outside of the US. I met my second (and
current) wife from an online dating site for Philippine girls. Although there
are disadvantages to this approach, there are several significant advantages.1) Divorce is illegal in the Philippines, and not a part of the Filipino
mindset2) Philippine women, generally speaking, believe that men and women
share different, although equal, roles in society.3P Philippine women
believe that the most important role a woman can have is to be a good wife and
mother.3) Getting to know someone over the phone or video chat eliminates
a lot of the physical distractions that cause couples to marry for the wrong
reasons.Marriage is just the beginning. Making a successful
marriage is an even harder. The divorce rates in Utah are not significantly
different than the rest of the US. I have been married to my Filipino bride for
nearly 15 years, and regard it as one of the best decisions of my life.
I had no success on the dating scene when I was looking for Mr. Right. I ended
up becoming friends at work with a man I wasn't even remotely attracted to
and who I never expected to date (I even turned down a mutual friend when he
tried to set us up). Guess who I just celebrated my 8th wedding anniversary
with?I think too many times we go into dating looking for "the
one" when there is no "one" person who is right for us. I know that
my husband isn't the only man in the world who could be right for me (or
that I'm the only woman who could be right for him), but I married him
because once I really got to know him he became my best friend and the man I
wanted to spend eternity with. It was our internal qualities that made both of
us fall in love, and internal qualities don't tend to change over time the
way external ones, such as physical appearance, do.Maybe the young
man asking the original question simply needs to focus on making friends and let
things flow naturally from there?
When looking for someone to marry, people (men and women both) tend to look at
appearance first, personality second, and character third, if at all. Those
three qualities will affect happiness in marriage in the opposite
order--character first, personality second, and appearance third, if at all.
Maybe he should leave Utah and start dating girls in the YSA wards in DC, in CA,
in Texas, etc.
Man, do I remember feeling this way. Thankfully I only had to deal with it for 2
1/2 years. I might have left the Church, or at least the YSA ward, if I'd
had to deal with it for 8. Of course my situation was complicated by
my being a convert in my late 20s, at considerable disadvantage to other YSA men
who were raised in the Church and understood Mormon culture far better than I
did--not to mention, they held the Melchizedek Priesthood, were endowed, and had
served missions, three highly desirable things in the eyes of most Mormon women.
Partly because of this pressure, I rushed through my Priesthood ordination and
Endowment (too old to serve a mission), with disastrous consequences. In the end the YSA program, although it did create friendships, did nothing
for me marriage-wise, since I ended up meeting my wife online. Too many I think
enter the YSA program for the wrong reasons. If you're not ready to find a
spouse, in my opinion it's better to stay in the family ward. Otherwise,
the YSA ward becomes disturbingly similar to high school, which can be a
testimony-destroying experience for many.
The inquirer's question is legitimate.The columnist's
advice is sound. However, I'll add that going too far in the other
direction (Johnny Lingo style) of seeing the best future potential in someone,
and ignoring their current state can also lead to unhappiness and divorce. To
truly love someone means to understand who they are, to accept them as they are
and who they may or may never become; it means to have clearly defined
expectations up front and to set firm limits on what is acceptable behavior.
(Even God has firm limits on what behavior He will accept from us, though he
loves us unconditionally.)
The root of this issue is the straight date -> marriage mentality that is
target dating. Dating should be more than just a means to find a spouse. The
paradigm of target dating is so heavily ingrained in our society that many
people are unable to fathom what that kind of dating would be. Without this
mentality, there is less judgement, and stress in dating to find the perfect one
which, often, makes it easier to find who we are looking for. It's all
about economic fluidity.
It sounds like some communication is probably to blame, 8 years and over 1000
dates, wow. You could not have had anything even close to giving someone a
chance, that means you would have had to go on 2.92 dates every week for those
eight years of dating. I would say take some time off to evaluate yourself
first and then decide if it is the Young Women wanting to be treated like a
Queen or Princess or is more an entitlement issue for them or for you. I
honestly believe too much electronics and not enough communicating is the
problem with many young adults these years. Why not give some gold ole
communication in its original form a try and a little respect and humility. At
least it wouldn't hurt and in the end might save you some money, because I
can't even imagine how much money was spent on just under 3 dates a week.
Save your money for something that is a better return, so date for quality not
quantity. Like someone else commented maybe you should change the people you
hang out with if LDS Princess is what is truly going on and not entitlement.