Comments about ‘Letter: Marriage debate’

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Published: Tuesday, Jan. 7 2014 12:00 a.m. MST

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Mike Richards
South Jordan, Utah

Utah is governed by a Supreme Law. That State's Constitution is that Supreme Law. That Constitution defines marriage. That definition was put there by the people of Utah. We voted on it. The Legislature can it do nothing about marriage unless the people repeal that part of the State's Constitution.

All duties not enumerated in the U.S. Constitution are left to the States. Issuing marriage licenses is not a duty of the U.S. Government. No authority has ever been given to the Federal Government by the people of the United States to define marriage or to issue marriage licenses. The10th Amendment clearly states that all duties not enumerated by the U.S. Constitution are to be left to the States or to the People.

The 14th Amendment does not define marriage. It does not give the Federal Government the right to define marriage. It does not give the Federal Government to declare a person's sex based on that person's feelings nor to grant rights based on "feelings".

The family is too important to be redefined by those who think that God made a mistake when He made them a man or a woman.

The Real Maverick
Orem, UT

Good Grief...

The world always looks bleaker when all you see are straw men on your way down a slippery slope...

Ranch
Here, UT

Joan;

Businesses are in business to make money, not just to "provide services to 'heterosexual' couples". Businesses that make money by providing wedding services should provide those services to all couples, regardless of the type of wedding being performed. Research "Public accomodation laws".

Churches already have the First Amendment right to perform ceremonies for whomever they choose and deny whomever they choose.

Marriage laws won't need modification for LGBT marriage: IT IS THE SAME as straight marriage per the law. A contract between two people to merge their lives into a familial unit.

Ranch
Here, UT

@Mike Richards;

Wrong. Utah is governed by The Constitution of the United States which takes precedence over ANYTHING in the state's constitution that violates the US Constitution.

We are NOT a theocracy. Your "god" has no standing.

Kalindra
Salt Lake City, Utah

@ Mike: Perhaps you should actually read the Utah State Constitution - and pay particular attention to where it states the the US Constitution is the supreme law if the land.

As for the rest of your arguments - that would be why the current court case is an ongoing matter. And your repeated claims which ignore history and facts you find inconvenient do very little to further the discussion or prove that Amendment 3 should be upheld.

Perhaps you should spend some time actually reading the cases/decisions and come up with arguments that address the points raised?

Happy Valley Heretic
Orem, UT

Mike Said: " It does not give the Federal Government to declare a person's sex based on that person's feelings nor to grant rights based on "feelings"."

Feelings-You mean like your entire argument is based on? I feel my religion is right, I feel like discriminating based on my hatred or feelings? Or your right to religious freedom which is based on "Feelings" and I'll ad religion is a choice, based on feelings that is protected by the constitution. So Feelings are important and concrete in religious context but invalid in the individual, got it.

The legislature should probably not bother being pro active as they will most likely be wrong, again.

Pagan
Salt Lake City, UT

' I believe the Utah Legislature needs to become proactive and start discussions now about how to deal with this problem.'

Something is only a problem…

when you offer zero solutions.

Let's factually take a look at the consequences of gay marriage.

5 years:
*'After 5 Years of Legal Gay Marriage, Massachusetts still has the lowest state divorce rate...' - Bruce Wilson - AlterNet - 08/24/09

Line:
'Massachusetts retains the national title as the lowest divorce rate state, and the MA divorce rate is about where the US divorce rate was in 1940, prior to the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor.'

10 years:
*'TEN YEARS later, 85 Percent of Massachusetts voters say NO HARM from Marriage Equality' – 09/27/13
'Massachusetts now has the lowest divorce rate in the nation, same-sex families now enjoy full legal protections….'

So, what has factually happened after gay marriage?

Nothing.

If you are going to fabricate reasons to be against marriage equality, you are going to have a rough day before the supreme court.

Opinions < Facts.

And if God is perfect, and made everything…

why do some choose to find fault with the LGBT people he created?

False Witness.

Mike Richards
South Jordan, Utah

Ranch,

You misunderstand the Constitution. You misunderstand the Federation of States that constitute the United States. You misunderstand the limits imposed on the Federal Government by the Constitution. You misrepresent the 14th Amendment which guaranteed that SLAVES would be recognized as citizens and no longer be treated as property. Nothing in the 14th Amendment requires special privileges for those whose feelings contradict their physical appearance. And most importantly, you misrepresent the God whom you represented as a missionary.

Read the Constitution as it is written, not as you wish that it had been written. Read the limited authority granted by the people to the Federal Government. Learn for yourself that you are a citizen of the State of Utah. Your birth certificate tells you that. Your driver's license tells you that. If you own a business, your business license tells you that. Nothing on those documents mentions the United States of America. The highest government official in America who has responsibility for you is the Governor, not the President. The President represents the Federation of States and is elected by the States representatives in the electoral college.

Understanding is the first step of enlightenment.

GZE
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

You can't make something illegal retroactively. Everyone who married during the past couple of weeks entered their contracts with good faith. Those contracts are legal and need to be honored.

Hutterite
American Fork, UT

One thing that hasn't happened yet would change this 'do heterosexual businesses have to serve same sex couples' discussion. Someone, somewhere, has to deny service to someone because they're heterosexual. It could be an apartment or an ice cream cone, it doesn't matter. They just have to come out and say 'we don't serve your kind'. Equality should come quickly after that.

J Thompson
SPRINGVILLE, UT

Those who use the fallacious claim that the United States should subject all States to a uniform set of rules in everything that touches our lives have opened an argument that they cannot support. All they have to do is to look at their driver's license. The State controls who can drive in Utah. It allows non-citizens of Utah to drive for a limited time in Utah, but if they stay for any length of time, they must give a Utah Driver's License to continue driving. If those people looked at the license plates on their vehicles, they would see that those plates are issued by Utah and that they must have Utah plates if they reside here for any length of time. When they visit their doctor, they will see that his license to treat them is issued by the State of Utah. When they visit their lawyer, he will have a license to practice law in Utah.

Their claim that the 14th Amendment gives them special rights based on their denial of their physical attributes is as absurd as their reluctance to recongize a State's soverign authority.

airnaut
Everett, 00

Mike -- Good morning, on guard...

1. The Utah State Constitution clearly states that the United States Consitution is the Supreme law of the land.

2. If you only want Utah to only recognize "Utah" marriages, then never move to another State. You would be committing adultery.

3. You are Mormon based on your "feelings". You are protected for it under the Constitution. Same applies here.

4. Still haven't got the whole difference between Transgender and Homosexual thing figured out yet, have you.

5. The LDS Church recognizes than SameSex Attration is real, and has dedicated an entire website to it, are you implying God makes mistakes?

airnaut
Everett, 00

J Thompson
SPRINGVILLE, UT

=========

OK, let's see how this holds up to the smell test...

The State controls who can [marry] in Utah. It allows non-citizens of Utah to [marry] for a limited time in Utah, but if they stay for any length of time, they must get a Utah [Marriage] License to continue [being married]. If those people looked at the license on their [marriage], they would see that those are issued by Utah and that they must have Utah [marriage] if they reside here for any length of time. When they visit their [wife], they will see that [her] license to treat them is issued by the State of Utah. When they visit their [husband], he will have a license to practice [marriage] in Utah.

========

Marriage is valid in all states, with no time limits, regardless of what the state the license was issued.

If you move to another state you are not logically legally and lawfully wedded.
You are also committing adultery.

Therefore -- Federal level.

Smell test, failed!

Shaun
Sandy, UT

@ mike richards. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Are you against giving citizens their constitutional rights? Why can't we let people live their lives as they see fit?

Sal
Provo, UT

The letter writer feels that the Utah State Legislature should become pro-active regarding SSM. It wouldn't do any good. The courts will annul what the citizens of Utah through their legislature uphold.

Mike Richards
South Jordan, Utah

Claiming that "feelings" are "Constitutional Rights" misrepresents the Constitution. We have the right to PURSUE happiness. The Constitution does not grant us happiness. The Constitution does not guarantee us equality. If you think differently, walk into your boss's office and demand to be paid the same as he or she is paid. If you think that the 14th Amendment guarantees equality, show up at a hospital and demand the right to perform brain surgery or walk into an airport and demand to be allowed to fly a 767.

Someone who "feels" that God gave him/her the wrong sex is homosexual, Airnaut. Someone who gets surgical help to change that gender is transexual. In neither case has that person changed God's will about that person's gender.

"Feeling" that you deserve a bank's money does not a judge under the 14th Amendment to give you equal access to that money.

Redefining "marriage" not a basis for changing the most important and the most fundament unit of society - the Family. Read "The Family: A Proclamation to the World" if you want to know exactly what LDS Church prophets have said about marriage, about gender, about males and about females.

micawber
Centerville, UT

@Mike Richards.

I disagree with one of your premises about American citizenship. I think of myself as a citizen of the United States and a resident of Utah. You direct us to look at our drivers license. I did. It says nothing about citizenship. But the Utah Department of Public Safety website makes clear that a drivers license is contingent upon Utah residency.

According to the Lieutenant Governor's office, I am qualified to be governor of this state if I am a U.S. citizen who has been a resident of Utah for 5 years.

"Understanding is the first step of enlightenment."

Ranch
Here, UT

@Mike Richards:

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Please explain to me how "All persons" only means "slaves". All, means "ALL".

Please detail how "nor shan any state deprive ANY person of" not apply to LGBT citizens.

You can't.

glendenbg
Salt Lake City, UT

@Mike Richards - I've come to respect the consistency with which you advocate your views, though I often disagree with you. You are normally thoughtful and respectful.

Which is why your statement "Someone who "feels" that God gave him/her the wrong sex is homosexual" left me gobsmacked. That statement is simply not factual.

You're talking about gender identity, a person's sense of him/herself as male or female. Gender identity usually but not always matches biological gender. A person whose biological gender and gender identity are nonconforming might choose to identify as transgender. Gender identity is separate from sexual orientation.

Sexual orientation is about attraction and relationships. Being attracted to members of the other sex is heterosexual. Being attracted to members of both sexes is bisexual. Being attracted to members of one's own sex is homosexual. Gay persons are attracted to and build romantic and relationships with persons of the same gender. Throughout all of history, in every known culture, there are have been persons who are homosexual.

Finally, as a Christian I believe all persons are made in God's image and deserve love, respect, dignity and the opportunity to build emotionally fulfilling intimate relationships.

Happy Valley Heretic
Orem, UT

So Mike, since religion is a choice based purely on feelings, it has no place in the Constitution.
Freedom of religion does not mean- free for you to impose your "feelings" on others by law.

Your proclamation has no bearing in law, nor should it.

Show me where in the constitution where It says that the religious majority can impose it's doctrine thru laws based on denigrating other citizens?

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