Comments about ‘Supreme Court stay on marriage shows desire for slower process’

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Published: Monday, Jan. 6 2014 8:40 p.m. MST

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YBH
Sugarland, TX

@orem_man_am_i
"The constitution does not forbid an individual from using personal values based upon religious conviction to make decisions on laws and policy that effect the community."

that is true, but the court of law must decide issues based on constitution, which guarantee equal protection for every citizen, and not based on religious conviction.

@Rightwings and @2 bits

Even we may put "separation is not equal" aside, and agree on civil union, amendment 3 already banned civil union along with SSM, that is why this amendment is discriminatory and has to be struck down.

sharrona
layton, UT

RE: TrueChristian,(Jesus)“that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male(Adam) and (Eve)female, and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’(Mt 19:4-5)

Also consider the O. T. on this: The Holiness Code contained different types of commands. Some were related to dietary regulations or to ceremonial cleanliness, and these have been done away with in the N. T. (Col. 2:16-17; Rom. 14:1-3). Others, though, were moral codes, and as such are timeless. Thus incest, child sacrifice, homosexuality, bestiality, adultery, and the like, are still abominations before God.

RE: A Quaker. Not all Quakers believe the Bible if not, how about,

Mother (Saint)Teresa loved those who had same-sex attractions, but she still called them to purity. In fact, it is precisely because she loved them that she called them to practice chastity. “It is a false form of compassion to lead others to think that they can find fulfillment by living outside the will of God.

TrueChristian
Salt Lake City, UT

@sharrona - I think you missed the entire point of my post. I'm not saying that you should believe homosexuality to be moral, I'm saying that the Bible commands us to love all men, and not judge them. You can cherry pick the Old Testament all you want and say that certain parts have to be followed and certain parts not, but at the end of the day when Jesus was asked what the greatest commandments were, he didn't say 'make sure you judge others and tell them if they are moral or not'. In the parable of the good Samaritan Jesus specifically used someone that was considered religiously unworthy to demonstrate who your neighbor was.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." (Matthew 7:1-2)

nycut
New York, NY

@tiago
I don’t know your life. But consider:

Your body, mind and heart have discovered you'll fall in love with a man, but you are countermanding that to adhere to religious belief.

You want to be in the world you were born into, the lives around you. You knew nothing: they taught you God. Heaven. How to believe. They taught you their beautiful world.

Their story casts them at the center of all meaning, all creation. They have order. The way to their own eternal lives. And it conveniently corresponds to their own sexual impulses. No wonder it works for them.

Conform, and all is well. But the only role they have for you is off to the side.

Seeing you as whole would require them to re-examine their foundational worldview. They must see you through the lens of their own sexuality, reduce you to an urge, or risk threatening their very identity, their role in cosmic order.

They've spent your whole life making your world one with no place for you. But they have more to lose in accepting that gay people are real than you do. You have everything to gain.

nycut
New York, NY

It takes great strength to live a life of personal integrity.

Some religions demand that gay people act the part in someone else's storyline. But you don't have to accept a life of half-measures, semi-love, sort-of belonging. You don’t have to suffer this "test." You can live the life that's yours.

You can have your turn to be swept away in the love that is just for you: to find that person who makes every part of your being tingle, who thrills you, who holds you, who sees you as no one else can, who shares your darkest fears and most cherished dreams. You can find the one your heart loves. You can marry. You can have a family.

You can know happiness, not through self-destructive determination and sacrifice, but through bravery and integrity. You can be the person you were born to be.

You can be bigger than the religiously small. You can teach them about unconditional love. Consider that the test is theirs, not yours.

RedWings
CLEARFIELD, UT

Craig Clark: "Do you mean "separate but equal?" Where have I heard that before?"

Civil unions protect those in same-sex relationships and provide for proection of religious beliefs by keeping "marriage" where it belongs - in church. This is completely different situation than "separate but equal" diners, restrooms, etc during the civil rights movement.

Again, SSM is about providing legal protection for behavior, not a characteristic. The argument has completely shifted on this basis. No one is forced to live a homosexual lifestyle. I have denied the SSA desires I suffered with, and now I no longer struggle. And yes, I live a happier life as a result.

Choice in behavior is what separates us from animals.

RedWings
CLEARFIELD, UT

TrueChristian:

I hate no one. I have gay friends and co-workers and have never mistreated anyone for their choice. However, Christ Himself came to call sinners to repentance. As an LDS member, the Law of Chstity is not bendable. Relations between a man and a woman in marriage is the only acceptable use of the powers of procreation.

YBH: "@Rightwings and @2 bits"

Clever play on my screename. The problem is that I have never voted for a Republican presidential candidate in my life. My party (Democratic Party) has left me behind by pursuing a platorm of hypocrisy.

Marco Luxe
Los Angeles, CA

Informed? said: According to experts, a traditional family is more likely to provide a healthy and happy life...

No, the experts don't say that. There are all sorts of ways to a healthy and happy life, although the experts do acknowledge that the stability of a legal marriage sure helps. You thus imply support for SSM, as you should if you want to promote healthy and happy lives. The definitional waffling in saying "We should even find ways that they can financially be treated equal... but not marriage" is a compassionate step toward the Golden Rule, but legally unsupportable. If civil marriage is good for you, isn't it also good for those to whom you want to show kindness and respect? Separate and unequal treatment shows neither kindness nor respect, only underlying fear and self-interest. It takes courage to truly embrace the Golden Rule.

Meckofahess
Salt Lake City, UT

@Atl134

In response to Cats who expressed concern over the damaging things that gay marriage has led to in Massachussets you cavalierly said - "Absolutely nothing except kids learn that some families have two parents of the same gender". Well many people don't agree with you friend.

One observer in Massachusetts shared the following - "Anyone who thinks that same-sex “marriage” is a benign eccentricity which won’t affect the average person should consider what it has done in Massachusetts. It’s become a hammer to force the acceptance and normalization of homosexuality on everyone. And this train is moving fast. What has happened so far is only the beginning. Kindergartners were given picture books telling them that same-sex couples are just another kind of family, like their own parents. In 2005, when David Parker of Lexington, MA – a parent of a kindergartner – strongly insisted on being notified when teachers were discussing homosexuality or transgenderism with his son, the school had him arrested and put in jail overnight.

I and many citizens like me do NOT want to have our children indoctrinated and forced to accept the normalization of homosexuality - to us it is not normal intellectually, biologically and morally!

Nelson D
Garland, UT

Sometimes I honestly wonder if people even read the Bible or just believe what they are told without question.

One man and one woman only?

In the Bible, you will find that many of God's chosen servants, the patriarchs, were polygamous (multiple wives) not monogamous (one wife). Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, just to name a few, and that polygamy came with certain blessings (God's promises to Abraham).

Is God the same yesterday, today, and forever? So it says in the Bible.

If your happy with making up your own religion, that's fine, just don't try to force it on others by the power of law, which is essentially collective force.

People came to America to flee being told how to live and what to believe, and what are we doing today?

What a shame!

4blade2007
Provo, Utah

My concern is the example the adults of this world are setting for their children. Boys learn how to be fathers by watching and learning from a brother, father, grandfather, uncle, cousins, school or church leader. Girls learn how to be women by watching and learning from a sister, mother, grandmother, aunt, cousins, school or church leader. In a same sex marriage have you thought about future generations? Our children are our future leaders. This thought process and behavior will affect generations upon generations, lets stop it before it gets totally out of control.

TrueChristian
Salt Lake City, UT

@RedWings - I think God calling sinners to repent is different from people feeling that the government should enforce their view of morality. As an LDS member, the law of chastity isn't bendable, and I'm not saying it should be. But that doesn't mean I feel that the secular law of the land should enforce my religion. People have their free agency, and gay marriage doesn't change the law of chastity. If you feel that marrying someone of the same sex is immoral, then don't marry someone of the same sex. The Church also teaches that divorce is wrong, but I don't see anybody going around trying to ban divorce - which is a much greater threat to marriage. Let gays get married. Live your beliefs and set an example. Let God judge us all in the end, but I'm tired of people using Christianity to make people suffer.

Meckofahess
Salt Lake City, UT

@TrueChristian:

I see you were critical of sharrona's comments. Well, sharrona made some very important and salient points related to this whole issue. We are not judging the gay community un-righteously - we are only following what God said about homosexuality, which is that it is wrong. That is his judgment not ours. We love our fellow brothers and sisters who are gay, we just don't love all of their behavior and some of their demands that we sacrifice some of our basic rights as citizens. For example, we do not want men or women who have a gender identity confusion to be able to enter into public restrooms designated for men or women unless they are biologically a man or a woman. We do not want our children to be taught in tax supported schools that homosexual partnerships are the same as marriage between a man and a woman. God judges morality not us - true Christians just follow his word - they don't try to pervert it.

Meckofahess
Salt Lake City, UT

@ Marco Luxe: Here is another study that shows the disadvantages of same-sex "parenting", which shows that your assertions are counter-factural:

NEW Canadian study - rate of graduation using census data

Now a new study from Canada shows that children growing up in homosexual households do NOT do as well as those growing up with married parents.

Dr Douglas Allen, economics professor at Simon Fraser University, British Columbia, has published a peer-reviewed study titled High school graduation rates among children of same-sex households”.

It was published in Review of the Economics of the Household, Vol 11, Issue 4.

Dr Allen used a 20 % sample of the 2006 Canada census to “identify self-reported children living with same-sex parents” and investigated graduation rates of various family types.

He found that, “Children living with gay and lesbian families in 2006 were about 65 % as likely to graduate compared to children living in opposite sex marriage families. Daughters of same-sex parents do considerably worse than sons.”

YBH
Sugarland, TX

@RedWings

I apologize for the mistake. It was my negligence, never intent to play on your screename.

However, although I appreciate your attempt for compromise by suggesting civil union, and even if people can put their difference on "whether separation can be equal" aside, it still can not change the fact that amendment 3 bans both SSM and civil union. Therefore, your proposed compromise is not going to work in Utah, unless amendment 3 is repealed.

sharrona
layton, UT

RE: TrueChristian, If judging is totally forbidden, then that would make the doctrinal and moral purity of the church impossible to maintain. This would violate other teachings Christ has revealed in His word (see: Mt 7:16 ,By their fruits you shall knew them). It would commit us to neutrality and that is the very opposite of the stance Christ wants us to take.

Jesus taught,that we are given the right and responsibility to make judgments in order to help our fellow man with their problem of sin, provided we have first "remove the plank from our own eye." Jesus expects you to be able to see clearly, so that you can "remove the speck from your brother's eye" (Matthew 7:5). So there are judgments to be we cannot ignore our Lord's commands that instruct us to make judgments.

In John 7:24, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment". we are clearly commanded to judge with righteous judgment.

RE: love all men,(Example) Mother Teresa loved those who had same-sex attractions, but she still called them to purity. it is precisely because she loved them that she called them to practice chastity.

A Quaker
Brooklyn, NY

@sharrona: Your self-serving reading of the Bible is lamentable. Don't idolize words. Read the message.

TrueChristian, above, correctly implores you to read the theme message. Love God. Love thy neighbor. The Bible says this many times, in many ways, over and over and over, in both the Old and New Testaments. It is more than charity, it is a Commandment.

Leviticus has 21 admonitions against abominable things. You've latched onto an interpretation of one of them. What about the others? Do you even know what the first one is? It concerns eating meat from an animal slaughtered more than two days ago. Even the kosherest of kosher salami fails this by a mile.

Genesis has two creation stories. Before the Eden story, it tells us that men and women are BOTH in God's image, something that Quakers take deeply to heart. And, if both are in God's image, than in EVERY couple, straight or gay, we see God's love paired with God's love.

If you count yourself a Bible-believing Christian, please re-read The Sermon On The Mount, and pay attention this time.

Clinton
Draper, UT

@JosephSmith4ever It is not a bogus statement at all. Lawsuits have been filed against people who refused to marry homosexuals due to their religious beliefs, and a recent lawsuit was filed against a baker for refusing to bake a homosexual couple a wedding cake. Not only that, but the judged ordered him to do so, if I recall correctly.

It's really simple. If somebody believes that adultery is wrong, they probably aren't going to drive their friend to meet his mistress. If somebody believes drugs are wrong, they're probably not going to allow others to do drugs in their homes or places of business. And, if somebody believes that homosexuality is a sin, they shouldn't be made to participate in it, and indeed have a constitutional right to refuse to condone or serve it based on religious beliefs.

Craig Clark
Boulder, CO

sharrona,

"....consider the O. T. on this: The Holiness Code contained different types of commands. Some were related to dietary regulations or to ceremonial cleanliness, and these have been done away with in the N. T. (Col. 2:16-17; Rom. 14:1-3). Others, though, were moral codes, and as such are timeless. Thus incest, child sacrifice, homosexuality, bestiality, adultery, and the like, are still abominations before God...."
______________________________

Same sex marriage must be a powerful issue if it can prod someone steeped in Pauline doctrines of salvation to take a sudden keen interest in Mosaic law. Leviticus reflects the culture and mores of a time in antiquity that is long gone. After all these centuries, it’s time for us to let the dead bury the dead. We need to move on.

Clinton
Draper, UT

@cristoph The Democrat party has never been for the poor. Not for helping them to not be poor anyway. It is in their best interest to keep the poor in poverty so they can use their sweet promises of a better life every election to get votes. Republicans do the same thing.

If the government really wanted to help the poor, they'd quit bolstering up skyrocketing costs of higher education via loans, and they'd make welfare at least partially dependent on whether the recipient was attending school and maintaining good grades or not, in my opinion.

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